2016 U.S. Women's Open

[bladehunter]

I'm sick of video being used the wrong way. Here is the way things should be...

 

1) A penalty can only be called by the Player, Playing Competitor, Caddy for either, or by a Rules Official assigned to the group.

2) Video can only be used to clarify a called penalty (see No 1).

3) Nobody sitting in a video truck, at home, on-site patron, or even a rules official watching video should be able to call a penalty.

4) Video clarification should be limited to a time period of 1 hole after the last hole played or 20 minutes if the potential penalty occurred on the last hole.

5) If the penalty can't be resolved within the time period above, no penalty, done, last word.

 

I thought I'd share one of my posts from 2012. Still seems appropriate.

 

I'm getting a lot of use out of this old post. Thanks USGA!

 

I have no problem with the penalty on Anna for touching the sand. The use of video after the fact, for something no one in the "group" saw or questioned is just plain wrong and against the "spirit of the game." There is absolutely no equity in using video as the first line of offense for enforcing the rules for one player and not for every player in the field and for every shot thereof.

 

 

 

absolutely... i hate the direction the game is going..."growth " or not.... instant replay Video is going to replace the "honor system" and that is a knife to the soul of he game...period

[pmcuk]

I'm sick of video being used the wrong way. Here is the way things should be...

 

1) A penalty can only be called by the Player, Playing Competitor, Caddy for either, or by a Rules Official assigned to the group.

2) Video can only be used to clarify a called penalty (see No 1).

3) Nobody sitting in a video truck, at home, on-site patron, or even a rules official watching video should be able to call a penalty.

4) Video clarification should be limited to a time period of 1 hole after the last hole played or 20 minutes if the potential penalty occurred on the last hole.

5) If the penalty can't be resolved within the time period above, no penalty, done, last word.

 

I thought I'd share one of my posts from 2012. Still seems appropriate.

 

I'm getting a lot of use out of this old post. Thanks USGA!

 

I have no problem with the penalty on Anna for touching the sand. The use of video after the fact, for something no one in the "group" saw or questioned is just plain wrong and against the "spirit of the game." There is absolutely no equity in using video as the first line of offense for enforcing the rules for one player and not for every player in the field and for every shot thereof.

 

 

 

absolutely... i hate the direction the game is going..."growth " or not.... instant replay Video is going to replace the "honor system" and that is a knife to the soul of he game...period

 

Just watched the final of the UEFA European football. Referee booked the wrong player for handball. Video replay clearly showed his mistake, but his decision still stands. You can argue the right and wrong of that, but the bottom line is that the game goes on in real time and the officials see whatever they see at the time, and that's it.

[skyking]

I think the delay informing the women was due to USGA hand ringing to make sure the ruling was absolutely 100% correct and swift but they didn't consider the timing of when to inform and it's effect on strategy. I'm sure the USGA was very sensitive to the disaster with DJ and in comparison to the delay at Oakmont the USGA's decision yesterday was "immediate". The huge difference being this was a playoff so the delay was equal and DJ wasn't there to bail them out.

[hankmoody]

I'm surprised there's so much support for the rule. I know it's the rule and it always has been, but maybe it's time for the USGA to review the rule book and add an element of intent into some of the rules like this. If the USGA is serious about growing the game and attracting new generations of golfers, devotion to rules which can have no bearing on the play at hand but change the outcome doesn't seem (to me) to be smart. Is the reason for the rule to make sure not a grain of sand moves? No, it's to prevent players from testing their lie etc. It could be written in a way to preserve whatever integrity they feel they need while avoiding inadvertent disasters.

 

And the head of the USGA calling B Lang Bethany? Total clown show. And from the new woman president of the USGA. On national TV.

 

 

Edit: the post above me presents the contrary view. I am asking the USGA consider how this plays to a 10 year old they are trying to attract to the game.

 

Do YOU want to be out there legislating intent when those sums of money are on the line? How would you go about that exactly?

 

You'd fail miserably at your local club where the codgers are playing for pennies let alone where potentially someone's livelihood/career/legacy is on the line.

 

Couple of things here--intent exists in the rules today, and the officials and the players are responsible for enforcing the general rules of golf. For example, in the US Open, the USGA was called on to determine if it was "more likely than not" that DJ caused the ball to move on the putting surface. Very clearly to me a judgment call. Also there are rules regarding intent to strike.

 

That said, that is not my point. This is: I understand it's a rule. I agree she violated it. I agree there should be a penalty.

 

 

I am not on the Board of the USGA, but in my career I have and do sit on several for profit corporate and non-profit Boards of Directors. If I were on the USGA Board, I would ask: We are consciously trying to grow this game by attracting new players, both young and non-traditional entrants. They may have different views and expectations than generations of golfers past.

 

With that, as a board are we happy that our marque Women's event was decided by the inadvertent movement of a grain of sand?

 

It undeniably cast a pall over what could have been a thrilling conclusion to four days of great competition.

 

If the answer is "that's golf" and "that's the way it always has been, and the way it should stay" then my comment would be--don't be surprised then if a segment of the population (not represented on WRX mainly) would say "golf is weird". I would ask the Board if going forward they would be satisfied if that result were to be repeated in the next five televised championships.

 

You may say "yes..that's the rule..it's golf..she should do better next time.." I would say okay, fine.

 

My own personal preference, again given the stated mission of growing the game, would be to at least take a look at the rule book to see if, given all the factors cited in this thread, there might be room for improvement while not tearing down the traditions of the game.

[weakright]

Man, at what point do I cancel my usga membership?

 

did it a couple of weeks ago!

[pollock21]

I see a lot of arguing about intent. I don't believe intent is the issue as no player intends to touch the sand in that situation, but it happens.

 

This probably happened numerous times in this tourney in one way shape or form, just didn't happen to be policed by a zoomed in ultra high def camera.

 

To me the issue is when video detects penalties that the player had no way to detect. I don't believe there's any way she could have seen that contact or felt it.

 

So we believe it's a game of honor, and that penalties should be called on ourselves. I wonder how many penalties we have committed and have no idea about?

 

I'm sorry, but video replay like this isn't fair and has no place in the game. That is unless we put a camera on every single shot throughout the week.

 

And if they are going to continue to use it, they owe it to the players to speed up the ruling.

 

I needed 10 seconds to review that video and see the contact.

 

But as I said in another post, if the player can't see the penalty, should it be allowed to be reviewed and called? That's a good debate I'd like to hear about.

[QEight]

I can't believe her bunker setup even gets the club that close to the sand. Her coach/caddy should have nipped that a long time ago.

 

I bet 99% of the pros setup uncomfortably close to the sand. And 50% (guess) touch the sand from time to time.

[Golfnuck]

Just watched the final of the UEFA European football. Referee booked the wrong player for handball. Video replay clearly showed his mistake, but his decision still stands. You can argue the right and wrong of that, but the bottom line is that the game goes on in real time and the officials see whatever they see at the time, and that's it.

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

In some aspect it is good that another Major has ended in controversy due to the use of video replay because at some point it has to occur to the R&A / USGA that there is something wrong.

 

Golf is now subject to endless video replay rulings but only of those players that just have the TV cameras trained on them.

 

How many other penalties went undetected during the course of that tournament?

[imakaveli]

Will be interesting to see if this August the USGA will complete the Grand Slam of epic fails with the US Seniors Open

[Golf Monkey]

I'm sick of video being used the wrong way. Here is the way things should be...

 

1) A penalty can only be called by the Player, Playing Competitor, Caddy for either, or by a Rules Official assigned to the group.

2) Video can only be used to clarify a called penalty (see No 1).

3) Nobody sitting in a video truck, at home, on-site patron, or even a rules official watching video should be able to call a penalty.

4) Video clarification should be limited to a time period of 1 hole after the last hole played or 20 minutes if the potential penalty occurred on the last hole.

5) If the penalty can't be resolved within the time period above, no penalty, done, last word.

 

I thought I'd share one of my posts from 2012. Still seems appropriate.

 

I'm getting a lot of use out of this old post. Thanks USGA!

 

I have no problem with the penalty on Anna for touching the sand. The use of video after the fact, for something no one in the "group" saw or questioned is just plain wrong and against the "spirit of the game." There is absolutely no equity in using video as the first line of offense for enforcing the rules for one player and not for every player in the field and for every shot thereof.

 

 

 

absolutely... i hate the direction the game is going..."growth " or not.... instant replay Video is going to replace the "honor system" and that is a knife to the soul of he game...period

 

By extension, evidence gathered from marshals and the gallery would not be allowed in the decision making process.

[vitaminsteve]

Anna why so close to the sand tho? Raise it alittle. USGA should really take a step back and let a third party run and setup the tournaments. This has been going on for to long, from setting the course so gimmicky and hard. They have a idiot running it and dumb sweaty rules officials. They seem to want the attention and not the golf itself

[duffer987]

What an absolute sh1tshow. Unless every competitor's shot is subject to the same level of scrutiny, these hi-def super-slomo, super-closeup, camera shots should NEVER be used to affect the outcome of a golf tournament.

 

And then to compound it by directly impacting the strategy of the competitors with the staggered announcement. Can the USGA contract out the running of their tournaments in the future? Thinking maybe the parent volunteers at the local K-12 school running a sports day can do better.

 

Oh and USGA, can you please send your president to Betty Ford already. Does everyone who blamed the audio system at the men's US Open still think Murphy is just easily disorientated? ;)

[farmer]

If AN had not driven the ball into the bunker, there is no problem. If she had not addressed the ball with her club so close to the sand, there is no problem. Had she hovered the club an inch above the ball, and then the grains of sand moved, that would have been an interesting ruling.

[duffer987]

If AN had not driven the ball into the bunker, there is no problem. If she had not addressed the ball with her club so close to the sand, there is no problem. Had she hovered the club an inch above the ball, and then the grains of sand moved, that would have been an interesting ruling.

 

Ah yes, the - well she shouldn't have worn such a short skirt and had so many Jaegerbombs defense.

[ab7735]

Just curious, how was the Nordquist penalty detected. Was it by a call in viewer or done in the tv production truck?

[Rangeballz]

Oh and USGA, can you please send your president to Betty Ford already. Does everyone who blamed the audio system at the men's US Open still think Murphy is just easily disorientated? ;)

 

You would think after Oakmont she would have the trophy presentation procedure down pat. I'm sure she is a nice lady and all, but in her position she is the public face of the USGA and I'm sure is expected to at least not suck at public speaking. Things obviously are not going well......

[duffer987]

Oh and USGA, can you please send your president to Betty Ford already. Does everyone who blamed the audio system at the men's US Open still think Murphy is just easily disorientated? ;)

 

You would think after Oakmont she would have the trophy presentation procedure down pat. I'm sure she is a nice lady and all, but in her position she is the public face of the USGA and I'm sure is expected to at least not suck at public speaking. Things obviously are not going well......

 

That's it. You don't get to such a level in an organization without being able to stand up in front of people and speak, she has to have been on something these past two showings to make such a monumental hash of it.

[hebsan]

This whole controversy is deflecting attention away from Lydia's double bogey on 9 which essentially cost her the championship. Wondering why she didn't lay up before the hazard as she was in some pretty thick rough. Perhaps she was coerced into attempting a shot, as I think I heard Jason say "be aggressive". Or was she rushing as they were on the clock? Oh well, this is something she'll learn from.

[duffer987]

This whole controversy is deflecting attention away from Lydia's double bogey on 9 which essentially cost her the championship. Wondering why she didn't lay up before the hazard as she was in some pretty thick rough. Perhaps she was coerced into attempting a shot, as I think I heard Jason say "be aggressive". Or was she rushing as they were on the clock? Oh well, this is something she'll learn from.

 

They weren't on the clock yet, IIRC they were on from 12 to 15th tee.

But what was yet another stupid move by the USGA, I cannot believe they blamed Park for taking too long to putt on 12 and that led to being on the clock and got her a warning, when they'd been behind the pace ever since Ko's screw up on 9. More idiocy from the USGA, with the associated disgusting hubris, if Steve Flesch's comments at the time can be taken literally.

[95124hacker]

My solution is if they're going to continue allowing video replay is halt play for that particular group and make a decision in 5 minutes or less. If the player involved has already hit their next shot, it's too late. Just like in the NFL when a team hurries to run the next play before the opposing coach has a chance to throw his challenge flag.

[95124hacker]

The USGA should digitally re-master all their tournaments from the past 50 years and strip titles away if they see a rules violation. It's their job to get the results right. Are we sure Tom Watson didn't move his ball before he chipped in on 17 at Pebble?

[bladehunter]

I'm sick of video being used the wrong way. Here is the way things should be...

 

1) A penalty can only be called by the Player, Playing Competitor, Caddy for either, or by a Rules Official assigned to the group.

2) Video can only be used to clarify a called penalty (see No 1).

3) Nobody sitting in a video truck, at home, on-site patron, or even a rules official watching video should be able to call a penalty.

4) Video clarification should be limited to a time period of 1 hole after the last hole played or 20 minutes if the potential penalty occurred on the last hole.

5) If the penalty can't be resolved within the time period above, no penalty, done, last word.

 

I thought I'd share one of my posts from 2012. Still seems appropriate.

 

I'm getting a lot of use out of this old post. Thanks USGA!

 

I have no problem with the penalty on Anna for touching the sand. The use of video after the fact, for something no one in the "group" saw or questioned is just plain wrong and against the "spirit of the game." There is absolutely no equity in using video as the first line of offense for enforcing the rules for one player and not for every player in the field and for every shot thereof.

 

 

 

absolutely... i hate the direction the game is going..."growth " or not.... instant replay Video is going to replace the "honor system" and that is a knife to the soul of he game...period

 

By extension, evidence gathered from marshals and the gallery would not be allowed in the decision making process.

 

 

Agreed. It should be entirely policed by the players in that group and the walking official. If need be a call to a higher official for a rules interpretation may be warranted. But not to include video.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

My solution is if they're going to continue allowing video replay is halt play for that particular group and make a decision in 5 minutes or less. If the player involved has already hit their next shot, it's too late. Just like in the NFL when a team hurries to run the next play before the opposing coach has a chance to throw his challenge flag.

 

Lets make the rounds take 7 hours?

[95124hacker]

Then get rid of video replay altogether. That's my first preference anyway.

[Aggowl7995]

Second major in a row the USGA has looked like a bunch of clowns .

They appear to be very unprofessional, unorganized and amateurish.

Could it be the leadership?

[Tasals]

If AN had not driven the ball into the bunker, there is no problem. If she had not addressed the ball with her club so close to the sand, there is no problem. Had she hovered the club an inch above the ball, and then the grains of sand moved, that would have been an interesting ruling.

 

Ah yes, the - well she shouldn't have worn such a short skirt and had so many Jaegerbombs defense.

 

come on, thats a little excessive. one is clearly ANs fault, the other is just a very disturbing attempt at a comparison.

[widow-maker]

Video replay shouldn't be used unless it's used for every shot of the Tournament. Golf has existed just fine for over 100 years with players calling the penalties they see. We manage to conduct club tournaments across the country without the use of video replay. If somebody gets away with something, then somebody gets away with something. The court of public opinion will take care of them. How many times have they caught a player who was actually trying to cheat on purpose? Considering the hundreds of thousands of shots seen on TV over the years, I can't remember even one instance where they caught somebody cheating who did it on purpose.. AN obviously wasn't trying to test the sand and the fact that she was hovering her club shows that she was trying to adhere to the rule. Either you have video replay on every shot or don't have it at all. You shouldn't enforce it selectively.

[Will Par]

I'm surprised that so many are in favor of "getting rid" of using camera footage for rulings. High speed, close-up HD camera shots are part of the world we live in today. It's not feasible to have that coverage for every shot in every group, but it is also not feasible to ignore what the camera sees. Do we really want to hear a winner explain why they deserve the trophy when the camera shows they violated a rule?? That camera shot is not going to disappear. It will be part of the story regardless.

 

Our world today has cameras everywhere. Those cameras capture and reveal situations that we otherwise wouldn't be aware of. But we do have the responsibility to take full consideration on everything that we do become aware of when it happens. That applies to golf as well as all the other political situations that cameras capture.

[skyking]

If you took a club and brushed that small amounts of sand, I doubt you would feel or see it.

 

You can see it here

 

 

I was surprised at 20 seconds into the video clip Anna said "APPARENTLY I did..." regarding touching the sand. I assume they showed her the video or at least told Anna they had ABSOLUTE proof she touched the sand.

[pmcuk]

 

I'm surprised that so many are in favor of "getting rid" of using camera footage for rulings. High speed, close-up HD camera shots are part of the world we live in today. It's not feasible to have that coverage for every shot in every group, but it is also not feasible to ignore what the camera sees.

 

 

Yes it is. In the example I gave earlier - the final of the UEFA football cup - a player was booked for handball when the video replay showed it wasn't him. The decision still stood.

 

As mentioned above - if play has moved on then it's too late. And as also said, the court of public opinion will be enough punishment, as happened to Chella Choi.