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12 minutes ago, hybrid25 said:

But that's the way every sport is, that's life on planet earth. Now, back to the topic, if they can play lcp, they can play lmp in the fairway. 

 

If you want to see players playing the ball down watch USGA events or college golf or AJGA junior golf. If you merely want entertainment watch PGA Tour and LPGA Tour TV golf, oh, and be sure to buy the Viagra and Buicks.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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I am not sure where the drama was. Didn't seem to bother Westwood one bit. Ball first, hit the middle of the green, make par (which was better than the field). If anything it was good example of why w

I agree with many people who say though that defining when you are in a divot will be pretty hard. What about an older divot that is basically almost perfect again...what about if you're just on the e

Good rule of thumb is - the polar opposite of twitters response is the best course of action.  

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2 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

If you want to see players playing the ball down watch USGA events or college golf or AJGA junior golf. If you merely want entertainment watch PGA Tour and LPGA Tour TV golf, oh, and be sure to buy the Viagra and Buicks.

My only point was that they want to be fair on the pga when a ball gets dirt on it for those who hit it in the fairway, because those who hit it in the fairway shouldn't be penalized by 'unlucky circumstances, but don't see the same logic for unrepaired divots in the fairway. It's foolishness.

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1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

There's a Model Local Rule for preferred lies. It's known as E-3 and is found here:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=5

 

The PGA Tour, which is NOT the PGA, chooses to apply it it when they see fit. That is their Committee's prerogative. 

 

Relief from divot holes is a settled issue. It's been considered for at least two centuries and is not happening. You can piss and moan forever and it's not happening. It's a bad break just like a good break.

I like complaining, especially when I see injustice.

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On 1/28/2021 at 11:16 PM, hybrid25 said:

I like complaining, especially when I see injustice.

AAAhhhhh, justice.  Like when the ball is headed deep into the woods, and bounces off some lumber to the center of the fairway.  We should get the lie that our shot deserves.  Put that ball back in the woods!

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On 1/28/2021 at 10:16 PM, hybrid25 said:

I like complaining, especially when I see injustice.

 

hybrid25 ------- New World RJW!  Rules Justice Warrior! It could be like a cartoon series of little golf spots.  I'm standing there complaining my ball is in the fairway in a divot scrape for like the first time in 16 months and you kind of pop in there with that little bit of music from Bewitched in a little golf cart looking like an old Scot and named "Mulligan" ready to dispense golf justice -- "Laddie, that's so unfair, if Old Tom had been more enlightened he'd have you roll that right out of there - go on, give it a nudge!"  Then when justice allows me to hit the next one to three feet, "You've had a tough week my boy, you deserve a birdie, just pick that up!"  I see this as kind of like two pages in juxtaposition in a children's book on the rules of golf as well.  Mulligan on one page and Old Tom on the other page with the "fun" answer presented by Mulligan, then Old Tom steps in to set the kids straight.

 

Fun! 

 

 

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On 1/28/2021 at 8:16 PM, hybrid25 said:

I like complaining, especially when I see injustice.

Great - a SJW fighting for divot relief just what golf needed. 

 

I am not sure how it is injustice when people playing there own event you are not part of institute LR E3. The committee at your course has the option putting LCP in place when they see fit too.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, davep043 said:

AAAhhhhh, justice.  Like when the ball is headed deep into the woods, and bounces off some lumber to the center of the fairway.  We should get the lie that our shot deserves.  Put that ball back in the woods!

I hear this argument over and over, ''the ole tree sending the ball back in to the fairway fairness concept". How about the tree sending the ball OB? OR, how about this: The tree sending the ball back into the fairway right on a sprinkler head? Play it as it lies, right??? You see, when the make rules for the sprinkler head issue, they don't thwart what is right with a lame excuse like "it hit a tree and bounced back into the fairway, so we can't make a rule for sprinkler head relief. But they do, because they know right is right, and what if's are always going to be there.

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On 1/24/2021 at 5:47 PM, 2bGood said:

 

So to be clear this would not be a divot in your definition:

 

image.png.079db898a5aed16ef5a27ae511157367.png

Wow! That one is actually filled in! Where do you play where that happens? Not only that it looks like there was seed in the sand as well - almost unheard of.

Only ones I get to play out of are between 1/2 and 2’’ deep.

And there is no skill available to anyone to get a shot when the top of the ball is below the surface of the fairway and  snuggled up to the front of those divots. Guaranteed bogey of worse.

So I understand all too well the frustration of playing out of divots because most of them are just holes in the fairway. And lets be clear: there is no comparison to the playing surfaces of PGA venues, and what we play on a daily basis. 

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5 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

Wow! That one is actually filled in! Where do you play where that happens? Not only that it looks like there was seed in the sand as well - almost unheard of.

Only ones I get to play out of are between 1/2 and 2’’ deep.

And there is no skill available to anyone to get a shot when the top of the ball is below the surface of the fairway and  snuggled up to the front of those divots. Guaranteed bogey of worse.

So I understand all too well the frustration of playing out of divots because most of them are just holes in the fairway. And lets be clear: there is no comparison to the playing surfaces of PGA venues, and what we play on a daily basis. 

Have you ever seen the state of the fairway halfway through any round of a pro event? The pitching length area is like a ploughed field.

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16 hours ago, Newby said:

Have you ever seen the state of the fairway halfway through any round of a pro event? The pitching length area is like a ploughed field.

And I get that as well.

The difference is, every night the entire “field” is combed over and made as pristine as possible.

That means that a max of 144 players for 2 days, and 70 for 2 more days have played and the course has had a full maintenance and grooming.

As opposed to average courses of average financial means where the fairways are unattended all season long except for cutting.

So the divots from 20-40 k golfers are what the average person plays in, at least around here. Some are partially grown in but still a hole, and some have had a sprinkle of sand put in that nowhere near fills the hole. No seed, so the growing of grass in simply what happens naturally in a 3 month growing season.

There is no comparison for some areas of the world that only have 5-6 month seasons at best. To treat every area the same is simply a mental perception issue.

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1 hour ago, Quasimoto said:

And I get that as well.

The difference is, every night the entire “field” is combed over and made as pristine as possible.

That means that a max of 144 players for 2 days, and 70 for 2 more days have played and the course has had a full maintenance and grooming.

As opposed to average courses of average financial means where the fairways are unattended all season long except for cutting.

So the divots from 20-40 k golfers are what the average person plays in, at least around here. Some are partially grown in but still a hole, and some have had a sprinkle of sand put in that nowhere near fills the hole. No seed, so the growing of grass in simply what happens naturally in a 3 month growing season.

There is no comparison for some areas of the world that only have 5-6 month seasons at best. To treat every area the same is simply a mental perception issue.

 

Take an extra club. Play it back an inch in your stance, and put a little more weight on your front foot. Catch the ball first. Really, how hard is that?

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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Not difficult at all when the ball is on sand.

As noted in prior post, next to impossible when the ball is below the surface level of the fairway.

Honestly I don’t know why I bother. It’s like we are all liars about our divot lies. Same premise that the rest of rules imply - everyone is a cheat.

I’m out.

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8 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

Not difficult at all when the ball is on sand.

As noted in prior post, next to impossible when the ball is below the surface level of the fairway.

Honestly I don’t know why I bother. It’s like we are all liars about our divot lies. Same premise that the rest of rules imply - everyone is a cheat.

I’m out.

I've been playing golf for probably 60+ years and about 180+ rounds per year for the last 11 and I have yet to see a divot where the top of the ball would be below the surface of the fairway, much less had to play from one. 

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2 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

This is exactly why bunkers should not be raked or relief should be given from fairway divot holes. The current logic makes no sense.  The rules of golf punish a fairway shot that rolls into a divot hole yet how dare anyone leave a footprint or a divot hole in a bunker.   @hybrid25 makes a valid point.

 

Your argument makes no sense. A player is supposed to fix any divot holes and smooth any holes they create inside a bunker. Nor do the rules allow free relief from either one. Th only difference between the two is that it might be sometimes impossible to fix a divot hole.

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4 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

Your argument makes no sense. A player is supposed to fix any divot holes and smooth any holes they create inside a bunker. Nor do the rules allow free relief from either one. Th only difference between the two is that it might be sometimes impossible to fix a divot hole.

The difference is a bunker is designed to penalize the player for a poorly struck shot. 

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2 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

The difference is a bunker is designed to penalize the player for a poorly struck shot. 

 

What? Is that why the guys on TV aim their misses at the greenside bunkers? Bunker play is just another type of golf shot.

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4 hours ago, oikos1 said:

The difference is a bunker is designed to penalize the player for a poorly struck shot. 

This is not entirely true if you dive into golf course design and architecture there are few general reasons bunkers are included on a course:

 

Aesthetics –  Often bunkers are the major visual component used to define a golf course style or emphasise other golf course features. 
Penalization – Bunkers can be used to penalize golf shots that are not properly executed. 

Provide Visual Cues – Bunkers can be used to provide golfers with cues as to where to hit the ball or to steer them clear of worse trouble. Blind holes may feature an aiming bunker that indicates the preferred line of play. 

Containment – Bunkers are often used to keep golf balls from finding a worse fate. On severe sites bunkers near greens and landing areas my catch golf balls that would otherwise follow the contours until far away from the playing areas. Bunkers are also sometimes used between the target area and hazards for the purpose of graduated penalty. 

 

The above is pulled from a thesis and a great read if you are interested in more in depth: 

AN ANALYSIS OF BUNKER DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION’S IMPACT ON GOLF COURSE MANAGEMENT

by

DARYN M. SOLDAN

 

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Theoretically, there is an advantage to the player for not fixing a divot.  The following players have to play a tougher course.  Yes, that is not in the spirit of the game and I suppose technically illegal if done purposely.

 

But it’s why I think granting relief should be allowed.  If we can define a burrowing animal hole, we can define a divot.

 

If the ball is below the surface of the surrounding turf, I say call it an embedded ball.

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45 minutes ago, MarcellusW said:

Theoretically, there is an advantage to the player for not fixing a divot.  The following players have to play a tougher course.  Yes, that is not in the spirit of the game and I suppose technically illegal if done purposely.

 

But it’s why I think granting relief should be allowed.  If we can define a burrowing animal hole, we can define a divot.

 

If the ball is below the surface of the surrounding turf, I say call it an embedded ball.

 

You might be right and here's how we do it. Every time the player hits a good shot, but arrives at their ball and doesn't like the lie, they can move it to the nearest patch of nice grass. However, entitlement works both ways. If a poor shot, say one into the trees gets a lucky rebound out of the trees, the player must pick up the ball and march it back deep into the woods and drop behind a tree. That's only fair. Right?

 

PS We don't have "burrowing animal holes" any more, just animal holes. You might invest in a 2019 Rules of Golf book.

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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On 1/29/2021 at 4:19 AM, hybrid25 said:

My only point was that they want to be fair on the pga when a ball gets dirt on it for those who hit it in the fairway, because those who hit it in the fairway shouldn't be penalized by 'unlucky circumstances, but don't see the same logic for unrepaired divots in the fairway. It's foolishness.

 Why not? Luck is present everywhere, not only on a golf course.

 

Live with it.

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On 2/26/2021 at 8:54 AM, sui generis said:

 

What? Is that why the guys on TV aim their misses at the greenside bunkers? Bunker play is just another type of golf shot.

I'll take you at your word that "bunker play is just another type of golf shot".  Why is it then that bunkers are the only place where you are provided a rake and expected to make the game easier for the next person?

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3 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

I'll take you at your word that "bunker play is just another type of golf shot".  Why is it then that bunkers are the only place where you are provided a rake and expected to make the game easier for the next person?

 

Or, how is that different from replacing divots and repairing ball marks? 😃

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