Divots in the fairway

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Dpavs said:

"Sorry Bob, but your ball was clearly within a penalty area and down here we consider gators to be livestock and not dangerous animals so I'm afraid you're going to have to take an unplayable on that one."

 

 

All kidding aside here is the actual video...lol.

 

The video is unavailable in my country so I renew my question: was it a live beaver or a dead one?

 

P.S. The guy talking to Bob is talking nonsense. You cannot take an unplayable in a penalty area. Also if your ball is on an animal R 11.1b steps in and you must take relief. And yes, I know it is a joke but Rules are no joke...

Edited March 13, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Dpavs]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The video is unavailable in my country so I renew my question: was it a live beaver or a dead one?

 

P.S. The guy talking to Bob is talking nonsense. You cannot take an unplayable in a penalty area. Also if your ball is on an animal R 11.1b steps in and you must take relief. And yes, I know it is a joke but Rules are no joke...

Too strict Bean... too strict... lol but yes point well taken. I went back and made the post more in keeping with the rules.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Dpavs

[Colin L]

13 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

Too strict Bean... too strict... lol but yes point well taken. I went back and made the post more in keeping with the rules.

yes  let's not get too po-faced about the rules when there is humour to be had - or humor over your side of the water, I suppose.   But if we must, then the ball wasn't in a penalty area as far can be seen from the video and even it it was, he could take relief from a dangerous animal.

 

 Do you have a format of play called alligator skins by any chance?   Extra points for landing your ball on one and tweaking its tail?   I'd be a loser.  I wasn't even prepared to get close once to a malevolent looking swan to retrieve a ball.    

[Dpavs]

12 minutes ago, Colin L said:

yes  let's not get too po-faced about the rules when there is humour to be had - or humor over your side of the water, I suppose.   But if we must, then the ball wasn't in a penalty area as far can be seen from the video and even it it was, he could take relief from a dangerous animal.

 

 Do you have a format of play called alligator skins by any chance?   Extra points for landing your ball on one and tweaking its tail?   I'd be a loser.  I wasn't even prepared to get close once to a malevolent looking swan to retrieve a ball.    

lol...yeah you caught me red line handed!

[Halebopp]

15 hours ago, bmoser9 said:

Maybe worst rule in golf was a bit dramatic since there are some pretty dumb rules... but I also think playing from a divot made by someone else is pretty dumb. It’s literally ground that is under repair but not in the sense GUR is written. I get that it’s one of the first original rules of golf and probably won’t be changed. Just my opinion.

Make sure you drop from knee high when you find the flower bed next round... lol

 

It seems like you lack the basic understanding of why rules are the way they are with your childish attempt at mocking the drop height.

[bmoser9]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:22 AM, Halebopp said:

 

It seems like you lack the basic understanding of why rules are the way they are with your childish attempt at mocking the drop height.

No. I am making light of fact that its a penalty if you drop from shoulder height vs knee height now to show how some the rules of golf are laughable.  It was not directed at the person I was replying to. I still think having to hit out of a divot made by someone else is a bad rule... but I do it anyway. 

[sui generis]

50 minutes ago, bmoser9 said:

No. I am making light of fact that its a penalty if you drop from shoulder height vs knee height now to show how some the rules of golf are laughable.  It was not directed at the person I was replying to. I still think having to hit out of a divot made by someone else is a bad rule... but I do it anyway. 

 

Well, thanks for the laugh. However, we're laughing at you and not with you. 🙃

[Mr. Bean]

54 minutes ago, bmoser9 said:

No. I am making light of fact that its a penalty if you drop from shoulder height vs knee height now to show how some the rules of golf are laughable.  It was not directed at the person I was replying to. I still think having to hit out of a divot made by someone else is a bad rule... but I do it anyway. 

 

Discussing about Rules is always welcome but obstinate attitude and being in denial of the facts is hardly ever constructive.

[bmoser9]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Discussing about Rules is always welcome but obstinate attitude and being in denial of the facts is hardly ever constructive.

I got ya but I’m not in denial about the facts. It’s been a rule since golf was created.. I’d like for it to be changed but realized it won’t. Maybe if it was JT or DJ in a divot on 18 at the Masters on a Sunday that led to a losing bogey that would start the conversation. But until then I’m sure it’s not remotely on the USGAs radar. 

[Halebopp]

9 hours ago, bmoser9 said:

No. I am making light of fact that its a penalty if you drop from shoulder height vs knee height now to show how some the rules of golf are laughable.  It was not directed at the person I was replying to. I still think having to hit out of a divot made by someone else is a bad rule... but I do it anyway. 

 

I didn't say or imply you would've tried to mock any person. You were trying to make fun of a rule but only showed you yourself don't have a clue of why the dropping rule is the way it is.

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, bmoser9 said:

Maybe if it was JT or DJ in a divot on 18 at the Masters on a Sunday that led to a losing bogey that would start the conversation.

 

Isn't it strange that people tend to look at the last events of a 4-day competition through a magnifying glass? Players play 4 consecutive days, hit appr. 40-45 strokes each from the fairway and it is only the one hit on the 18th hole on the last day that seems to matter. Making a bogey on the 1st hole on the 1st day due to a huge divot hole on the fairway and losing by one stroke is of no importance but should that happen on the 18th on the 4th day people are immediately requiring Rules to be changed.

 

Very human. History is rapidly forgotten, but how can it happen THAT fast 😁

[bmoser9]

12 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Isn't it strange that people tend to look at the last events of a 4-day competition through a magnifying glass? Players play 4 consecutive days, hit appr. 40-45 strokes each from the fairway and it is only the one hit on the 18th hole on the last day that seems to matter. Making a bogey on the 1st hole on the 1st day due to a huge divot hole on the fairway and losing by one stroke is of no importance but should that happen on the 18th on the 4th day people are immediately requiring Rules to be changed.

 

Very human. History is rapidly forgotten, but how can it happen THAT fast 😁

I agree 100% 

[hybrid25]

On 3/15/2021 at 4:50 PM, bmoser9 said:

I still think having to hit out of a divot made by someone else is a bad rule... but I do it anyway. 

I would have to agree, somehow, someway, a rule could be enacted to give the golfer relief from a fw divot. I can see both sides of the debate, although I favor relief from the divot.

[Mr. Bean]

20 hours ago, hybrid25 said:

I would have to agree, somehow, someway, a rule could be enacted to give the golfer relief from a fw divot. I can see both sides of the debate, although I favor relief from the divot.

 

As already explained a multitude of time it would be an impossible task to define a 'divot hole' (FWIW, a divot is the piece of soil removed from the terrain by a stroke, it is not the hole that remains). Thus it is the most fair way to play the ball as it lies.

[oikos1]

On 3/13/2021 at 10:03 AM, Halebopp said:

 

That's a pretty bold to claim, this is one of the worst rules in golf when it's practically the fundamental basis for the whole game:

 

A player’s ball at rest on the course must be played as it lies, except when the Rules require or allow the player:

• To play a ball from another place on the course, or
• To lift a ball and then replace it on its original spot.

How ironic that in defense of no relief from a divot hole, you cite two exceptions within the rules of golf that could be applied to that very situation.

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

How ironic that in defense of no relief from a divot hole, you cite two exceptions within the rules of golf that could be applied to that very situation.

 

Sure, if only the Rules would allow that...

 

Get over this and play the ball as it lies. It is not that often you find your ball in a divot hole that it would really matter. Really. You lose your ball due to a bad stroke way more often than you are required to play from a divot hole. Seriously.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[oikos1]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sure, if only the Rules would allow that...

 

Get over this and play the ball as it lies. It is not that often you find your ball in a divot hole that it would really matter. Really. You lose your ball due to a bad stroke way more often than you are required to play from a divot hole. Seriously.

Rules change all the time.  And that really is the point of this exercise.  Exploring the possibilities.  The biggest issue is how does one define a divot hole.  The rules clearly allow for relief in other scenarios, so it obviously is a possibility within the structure of the rules of golf. 

 

[rogolf]

1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

Rules change all the time.  And that really is the point of this exercise.  Exploring the possibilities.  The biggest issue is how does one define a divot hole.  The rules clearly allow for relief in other scenarios, so it obviously is a possibility within the structure of the rules of golf. 

 

That's only an issue if the ruling bodies were to decide to allow relief, which they are not going to do.

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, rogolf said:

That's only an issue if the ruling bodies were to decide to allow relief, which they are not going to do.

At least not for the time being, and for a valid reason.

 

However, I remember vividly how one very esteemed person in the R&A organization said years ago when he was asked when the DMDs are going to be allowed in the Rules of Golf: 'Only over my dead body'.

 

Well, he is still alive and well, so anything can happen... 😁

 

IMO a divot hole is equal to a footprint in a bunker. Just have to live with it. 'Play the ball as it lies' works here just fine.

[davep043]

3 hours ago, oikos1 said:

The biggest issue is how does one define a divot hole.

The biggest issue is still allowing yet another deviation from the basic principles, play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it.  The difficulty in writing an effective rule is a second hurdle, once the first is somehow cleared.

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

The biggest issue is still allowing yet another deviation from the basic principles, play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it.  The difficulty in writing an effective rule is a second hurdle, once the first is somehow cleared.

In order to clear a hurdle, you need to be willing to jump.  I don't see that there is any desire or willingness to jump (which is perfectly fine with me).

Edited March 21, 2021 by rogolf

[oikos1]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

The biggest issue is still allowing yet another deviation from the basic principles, play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it.  The difficulty in writing an effective rule is a second hurdle, once the first is somehow cleared.

Sure, except that most rounds are never played completely as "play it as it lies", or "play the course as you find it".  Remove an impediment from a hazard, fix spike marks, ground under repair, LCP.  Golf is filled with exceptions.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

Sure, except that most rounds are never played completely as "play it as it lies", or "play the course as you find it".  Remove an impediment from a hazard, fix spike marks, ground under repair, LCP.  Golf is filled with exceptions.

 

This isn't it. The ruling bodies have determined (for about the last three hundred years) that there's no reasonable way to define a divot hole. To the unscrupulous player EVERY minor depression in the turf will be, in their opinion, a divot hole. In match play that's fairly easily managed. In stroke play, there's NO way to protect the field.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

Sure, except that most rounds are never played completely as "play it as it lies", or "play the course as you find it".  Remove an impediment from a hazard, fix spike marks, ground under repair, LCP.  Golf is filled with exceptions.

Agreed, but divot holes aren't one of the exceptions.

[Quasimoto]

13 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

As already explained a multitude of time it would be an impossible task to define a 'divot hole' (FWIW, a divot is the piece of soil removed from the terrain by a stroke, it is not the hole that remains). Thus it is the most fair way to play the ball as it lies.

 

OK, but by extension when is a pitch mark on a green not a pitch mark? It can be brown and have a slight dent, it is still a pitch mark. The argument that people can’t reasonably sort out in a short period of time what a divot hole is, is laughable. That is my opinion.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Quasimoto said:

 

OK, but by extension when is a pitch mark on a green not a pitch mark? It can be brown and have a slight dent, it is still a pitch mark. The argument that people can’t reasonably sort out in a short period of time what a divot hole is, is laughable. That is my opinion.

I'm missing something here.  What's the relevance of pitchmarks  on a green?

[Halebopp]

 

16 hours ago, oikos1 said:

How ironic that in defense of no relief from a divot hole, you cite two exceptions within the rules of golf that could be applied to that very situation.

 

I shouldn't feed trolls but the person I was responding to called the rule one of the worst in golf. I was waiting on an explanation as to why that rule is so bad. Should the ball be always played as it lies or should the player be allowed to move the ball without a penalty at all times?

[Halebopp]

3 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

 

OK, but by extension when is a pitch mark on a green not a pitch mark? It can be brown and have a slight dent, it is still a pitch mark. The argument that people can’t reasonably sort out in a short period of time what a divot hole is, is laughable. That is my opinion.

 

Your argument (or what I assume you were trying to argue) might not be serving the point you think it is. Chances are you can't find a dent on a green you wouldn't be allowed to repair. But you can find millions of minor undulations of the ground and a whole lot of areas of uneven grass growth and whatnot on the fairways making it practically impossible to know what is a week-old divot hole and what isn't.

 

And, in equity, you would also need to deal with bunkers which haven't been raked perfectly, badly placed bunker rakes and who knows what else that might cause a player's ball to come to rest in a less-than-perfect lie only because a previous player didn't do his/her job perfectly.

 

Never mind the fact relief from such situations would only encourage players to not care for the course because the worse its condition is, the better lies you'd get into via free relief.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

7 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

 

OK, but by extension when is a pitch mark on a green not a pitch mark? It can be brown and have a slight dent, it is still a pitch mark. The argument that people can’t reasonably sort out in a short period of time what a divot hole is, is laughable. That is my opinion.

I 100% agree with you-- if I'm playing with friends that I know and trust and we have our own competition and committee. It would not be abused. 

 

If we're talking about competition with strangers or acquaintances then I am 100% sure this would be abused by some and lead to controversy. The more a stake the more likely to be abused. 

 

If I worked for the USGA and you told me I must write a divot relief rule then I'd create something like this - - "a player is entitled to one free relief per round in a closely mowm area for whatever reason the golfer deems necessary." This would care for the rare occurrence of landing in a divot and would completely eliminate anyone needing to make a judgment call for defining a divot. If it happens twice in a round, then too bad. Then again you're more likely to be struck by lightning. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by BlackDiamondPar5

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

 

OK, but by extension when is a pitch mark on a green not a pitch mark? It can be brown and have a slight dent, it is still a pitch mark. The argument that people can’t reasonably sort out in a short period of time what a divot hole is, is laughable. That is my opinion.

 

It seems you are still living in the past. Any damage on the putting green may be repaired since 1.1.2019, pitch mark or not.

 

If we look at the past why pitch marks were allowed to be repaired we must first look at the Definition of Putting Green. It is an area specifically prepared for putting, that is, rolling a ball with a stroke of a club along the surface. Thus the smoothness of the surface is of paramount importance while that is not the case on the fairway.

 

'The argument that people can’t reasonably sort out in a short period of time what a divot hole is, is laughable.'

 

It is far from that and it seems you refuse to acknowledge it. The entire concept of 'hole' is difficult to define and a hole that is going to be entirely filled in time is an impossible task to be defined when it seizes to be a hole. But you are of course entitled to your opinion, unfortunately that is not shared by people who work with the Rules of Golf professionally (and that is not me).