Divots in the fairway

[Mr. Bean]

19 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I 100% agree with you-- if I'm playing with friends that I know and trust and we have our own competition and committee. It would not be abused. 

 

If we're talking about competition with strangers or acquaintances then I am 100% sure this would be abused by some and lead to controversy. The more a stake the more likely to be abused. 

 

If I worked for the USGA and you told me I must write a divot relief rule then I'd create something like this - - "a player is entitled to one free relief per round in a closely mowm area for whatever reason the golfer deems necessary." This would care for the rare occurrence of landing in a divot and would completely eliminate anyone needing to make a judgment call for defining a divot. If it happens twice in a round, then too bad. Then again you're more likely to be struck by lightning. 

 

 

 

So, welcome Mulligans, is that it?

 

Now, THAT is laughable 🤣

[BlackDiamondPar5]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, welcome Mulligans, is that it?

 

Now, THAT is laughable 🤣

Has nothing to do with Mulligans. What's so funny? 

Edited March 21, 2021 by BlackDiamondPar5

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Has nothing to do with Mulligans. What's so funny? 

 

Oh, but it does! If the divot hole is deep enough you save one stroke, just like with a Mulligan.

 

That'll be the day when in the Rules of Golf one free drop on the fairway for whatever reason is allowed 🤣 (ROTFL)

[BlackDiamondPar5]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Oh, but it does! If the divot hole is deep enough you save one stroke, just like with a Mulligan.

 

That'll be the day when in the Rules of Golf one free drop on the fairway for whatever reason is allowed 🤣 (ROTFL)

For the record I don’t think there should be a divot rule. But if I worked for the USGA or R&A and was told I must come up with a solution for divots then I would propose what I wrote as a starting point. It would be very limited but easy to apply. 

 

What would you propose if it were your job to come up with a relief solution? 

 

Also a preferred lie is not a Mulligan. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by BlackDiamondPar5

[Mr. Bean]

24 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

For the record I don’t think there should be a divot rule. But if I worked for the USGA or R&A and was told I must come up with a solution for divots then I would propose what I wrote as a starting point. It would be very limited but easy to apply. 

 

What would you propose if it were your job to come up with a relief solution? 

 

I would not propose a relief. It is not part of golf.

 

But if I HAD to choose one I would go for LC&P at any time. That would be equal to all players as it is today whenever that is in force.

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It seems you are still living in the past. Any damage on the putting green may be repaired since 1.1.2019, pitch mark or not.

 

If we look at the past why pitch marks were allowed to be repaired we must first look at the Definition of Putting Green. It is an area specifically prepared for putting, that is, rolling a ball with a stroke of a club along the surface. Thus the smoothness of the surface is of paramount importance while that is not the case on the fairway.

 

'The argument that people can’t reasonably sort out in a short period of time what a divot hole is, is laughable.'

 

It is far from that and it seems you refuse to acknowledge it. The entire concept of 'hole' is difficult to define and a hole that is going to be entirely filled in time is an impossible task to be defined when it seizes to be a hole. But you are of course entitled to your opinion, unfortunately that is not shared by people who work with the Rules of Golf professionally (and that is not me).

 

 

"Any damage on the putting green may be repaired since 1.1.2019, pitch mark or not."

 

Wait.  What?  The ruling bodies changed a rule that has stood for decades?  And a rule that impacts the condition of play on the course?

 

I don't believe it.  I thought this wasn't possible.  😀

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

"Any damage on the putting green may be repaired since 1.1.2019, pitch mark or not."

 

Wait.  What?  The ruling bodies changed a rule that has stood for decades?  And a rule that impacts the condition of play on the course?

 

I don't believe it.  I thought this wasn't possible.  😀

 

And it is only now you heard about it? Oh my, you have missed 27 months of ranting.

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

9 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

 

OK, but by extension when is a pitch mark on a green not a pitch mark? It can be brown and have a slight dent, it is still a pitch mark. The argument that people can’t reasonably sort out in a short period of time what a divot hole is, is laughable. That is my opinion.

 

You may not have noticed, but in 2019 reasonable repairs now may be made to the putting surface. "Laughable?" Yes, you're giving us all a good laugh right now.

[Quasimoto]

12 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

Your argument (or what I assume you were trying to argue) might not be serving the point you think it is. Chances are you can't find a dent on a green you wouldn't be allowed to repair. But you can find millions of minor undulations of the ground and a whole lot of areas of uneven grass growth and whatnot on the fairways making it practically impossible to know what is a week-old divot hole and what isn't.

 

And, in equity, you would also need to deal with bunkers which haven't been raked perfectly, badly placed bunker rakes and who knows what else that might cause a player's ball to come to rest in a less-than-perfect lie only because a previous player didn't do his/her job perfectly.

 

Never mind the fact relief from such situations would only encourage players to not care for the course because the worse its condition is, the better lies you'd get into via free relief.

No part of my conversation included bunkers. Bunkers are a hazard, or penalty area. I have no issue with play it as you find in a bunker. I assumed we speaking about fairway cut divot holes.

[Mr. Bean]

9 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

No part of my conversation included bunkers. Bunkers are a hazard, or penalty area. I have no issue with play it as you find in a bunker. I assumed we speaking about fairway cut divot holes.

 

Interesting.

 

So, in your opinion it is just fine to find your ball in a bunker at the bottom of a deep footprint as a bunker is supposed to be a hazard? What happened to raking of bunkers??

 

On the fairway one is supposed to replace the divot hacked out from the ground, just as one is supposed to rake the bunker after one has played one's ball out from it. But suddenly one Quasimoto wants a free relief from a divot hole the previous player did not fix as he was supposed to.

 

It seems to me that Quasimoto should play miniature golf...

[davep043]

9 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Wait.  What?  The ruling bodies changed a rule that has stood for decades?  And a rule that impacts the condition of play on the course?

Oddly enough, that rule removed the requirement for judgement, all damage can be repaired.  Consistent.  And in the general area, NO damage can be repaired, also consistent.

 

1 hour ago, Quasimoto said:

Bunkers are a hazard, or penalty area.

Bunkers are bunkers, neither a hazard nor a penalty area.  But proper behavior is to repair both bunkers and general area to their original condition.  And the rules require us to play the ball as it lies in both, even when not properly repaired.

[Quasimoto]

Well, you can revert to ad hominem if you like, but you won’t suck me into as well.

Usually a sign of weakness.

See ya.

[nsxguy]

13 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And it is only now you heard about it? Oh my, you have missed 27 months of ranting.

 

 

When you can't refute someone's point.

 

"Hey. Look over there !!!"  🙃

 

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

Oddly enough, that rule removed the requirement for judgement, all damage can be repaired.  Consistent.  And in the general area, NO damage can be repaired, also consistent.

 

Bunkers are bunkers, neither a hazard nor a penalty area.  But proper behavior is to repair both bunkers and general area to their original condition.  And the rules require us to play the ball as it lies in both, even when not properly repaired.

Excellent point davep043.  I'm glad to see you acknowledging the ruling bodies, for a long period of time, held a rule in standing that was "inconsistent", and then decided to change the rule.  Perhaps there are others as well.

[phil75070]

On 3/20/2021 at 3:02 PM, davep043 said:

play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it

Actually, isn't it "play the ball as it lies and leave the course as you found it"?  Or at least as close as practical. Thus one should replace the divot where possible or use sand to fill the hole (certain grass/turf conditions don't produce a replaceable divot), fix your ball mark on the green and rake the bunker for the next player. I wonder how many that complain about hitting from a divot hole don't even attempt to repair their own damage. 

 

[davep043]

1 minute ago, phil75070 said:

Actually, isn't it "play the ball as it lies and leave the course as you found it"?  Or at least as close as practical. Thus one should replace the divot where possible or use sand to fill the hole (certain grass/turf conditions don't produce a replaceable divot), fix your ball mark on the green and rake the bunker for the next player. I wonder how many that complain about hitting from a divot hole don't even attempt to repair their own damage. 

You can refer to the actual Rules of Golf.  This is the very first section in the Purpose statement of Rule 1:

 

"Purpose of Rule: Rule 1 introduces these central principles of the game:

Play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies."

 

Later, in Rule 1.2 we find:

 

"All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

Showing consideration to others – for example, by playing at a prompt pace, looking out for the safety of others, and not distracting the play of another player.

Taking good care of the course – for example, by replacing divots, smoothing bunkers, repairing ball-marks, and not causing unnecessary damage to the course."

 

So both bits are in there, but the first item in the first section outlines the basic tenets of the game.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

23 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I would not propose a relief. It is not part of golf.

 

But if I HAD to choose one I would go for LC&P at any time. That would be equal to all players as it is today whenever that is in force.

That's certainly 1 approach and is consistent within the current rules.   But your proposal would pretty much permit fluffing the ball on every shot from the fairway--- that's pretty radical.  Whereas my solution, albeit you have to let your mind wander out the box, would provide a very limited allowance of up to once per round and therefore drive very careful judicious use by the golfer.    

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Whereas my solution, albeit you have to let your mind wander out the box, would provide a very limited allowance of up to once per round and therefore drive very careful judicious use by the golfer.    

 

Yes, but it would inevitably happen one day that one unfortunate player would find his ball in a divot hole TWICE on the same round, and this same discussion of unfairness would commence again... Mark my words.

[Shilgy]

On 3/22/2021 at 5:50 AM, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

That's certainly 1 approach and is consistent within the current rules.   But your proposal would pretty much permit fluffing the ball on every shot from the fairway--- that's pretty radical.  Whereas my solution, albeit you have to let your mind wander out the box, would provide a very limited allowance of up to once per round and therefore drive very careful judicious use by the golfer.    

So you would be ok with Patrick Reed walking down to  his approach shot on #18 to potentially win the US Open.....finding his ball up against a twig or other loose impediment that would cause the ball to move if removed...”he has no shot at the green” say the announcers. “No idea where that ball would go if he attempts to hit it” they add. 
  But wait! He hasn’t used his free drop today! “Kudos to him for smartly saving that when he played from a divot earlier “.... “he gets to use his get out of jail free drop here.”

 Patrick is your US Open winner  thanks to the BD5 rule.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

15 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

So you would be ok with Patrick Reed walking down to  his approach shot on #18 to potentially win the US Open.....finding his ball up against a twig or other loose impediment that would cause the ball to move if removed...”he has no shot at the green” say the announcers. “No idea where that ball would go if he attempts to hit it” they add. 
  But wait! He hasn’t used his free drop today! “Kudos to him for smartly saving that when he played from a divot earlier “.... “he gets to use his get out of jail free drop here.”

 Patrick is your US Open winner  thanks to the BD5 rule.

You may have missed my earlier posts--- I'm am NOT supportive of a divot relief rule. But yes that would be my starting point if my boss told me to come up with a  solution to provide free relief from the rare occurrence of landing in a fairway divot.

 

My preferred answer would be "suck it up buttercup and play from the divot" 🙂

[Shilgy]

Just now, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

You may have missed my earlier posts--- I'm am NOT supportive of a divot relief rule. But yes that would be my starting point if my boss told me to come up with a  solution to provide free relief from the rare occurrence of landing in a fairway divot.

 

My preferred answer would be "suck it up buttercup and play from the divot" 🙂

The last sentence is eloquently put.😂

And the way it should be.

 

As has been said before those in favor of a drop rule are seemingly blindly only thinking of the freshly made divot hole. Sure, that seems easy to define. But the definition begins to blur almost immediately. It is no longer a divot hole once it is repaired. It may not be the perfect lie you get at TopGolf bit then it is not supposed to be. 
Some do not want to have to play from a divot hole....some do not like to play from the rough....some do not like to play from s tightly cut fairway....some from uphill lies....some from downhill...some from hard pan....    It is the ability to both mentally and physically play those lies that the game of golf tests. 

[phil75070]

I don't know when the expectation of a perfect surface for the fairway started. Perhaps with the televising of professional events? The fairway is just a closely mown area. The putting green, on the other hand, is specially prepared for putting and defined as a "smooth" surface by Merriam Webster. Imagine the conditions of the course when golf was first "invented".

[BlackDiamondPar5]

19 hours ago, Shilgy said:

The last sentence is eloquently put.😂

And the way it should be.

 

As has been said before those in favor of a drop rule are seemingly blindly only thinking of the freshly made divot hole. Sure, that seems easy to define. But the definition begins to blur almost immediately. It is no longer a divot hole once it is repaired. It may not be the perfect lie you get at TopGolf bit then it is not supposed to be. 
Some do not want to have to play from a divot hole....some do not like to play from the rough....some do not like to play from s tightly cut fairway....some from uphill lies....some from downhill...some from hard pan....    It is the ability to both mentally and physically play those lies that the game of golf tests. 

Exactly --- sure a fresh deep divot might be an easy call, but for these pictured below when does it stop being a divot? While all of these look to be in various states of repair and healing I bet you'd find some people that would insist on needing relief from all of these. 

 

I may take pictures this summer of fresh and healing divots of all shapes and sizes.  Then when the inevitable divot relief thread is started again I'll just post those pictures asking "relief" or "no relief" for each one and I'll revel at all the discrepant answers from the "relief crowd"  🙂  

 

As I said before, if you find yourself in a divot, then "suck it up buttercup" and play it as it lies.  If guys are playing with their buddies and want divot relief, then they can be their own committee and declare preferred lies--- No need for new rules.  

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Exactly --- sure a fresh deep divot might be an easy call, but for these pictured below when does it stop being a divot? While all of these look to be in various states of repair and healing I bet you'd find some people that would insist on needing relief from all of these. 

 

I may take pictures this summer of fresh and healing divots of all shapes and sizes.  Then when the inevitable divot relief thread is started again I'll just post those pictures asking "relief" or "no relief" for each one and I'll revel at all the discrepant answers from the "relief crowd"  🙂  

 

As I said before, if you find yourself in a divot, then "suck it up buttercup" and play it as it lies.  If guys are playing with their buddies and want divot relief, then they can be their own committee and declare preferred lies--- No need for new rules.  

 

You should definitely circle ten spots from the picture and create a poll out of it. 🙂

[nsxguy]

16 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

You should definitely circle ten spots from the picture and create a poll out of it. 🙂

 

Lotsa circles

 

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Lotsa circles

 

 

I can see two... no, three dozens fully recovered divot holes in this picture above and below those yellow circles. No, wait! One of them is still missing 8 blades of grass so it is still recovering.

[Halebopp]

18 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Lotsa circles

 

 

You missed a whole bunch of possible divot holes... and I missed almost as many. 🙂

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Halebopp

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

You missed a whole bunch of possible divot holes... and I missed almost as many. 🙂

 

 

C'mon now Hale, let's not get ridiculous.

 

All those red circles are,,,,,,,,,, ummmmmm,,,,,,,,, wellllllll,,,,,,,,, errrrrrr,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 🤦‍♀️

 

Never mind.

[trilerian]

4 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Exactly --- sure a fresh deep divot might be an easy call, but for these pictured below when does it stop being a divot? While all of these look to be in various states of repair and healing I bet you'd find some people that would insist on needing relief from all of these. 

 

I may take pictures this summer of fresh and healing divots of all shapes and sizes.  Then when the inevitable divot relief thread is started again I'll just post those pictures asking "relief" or "no relief" for each one and I'll revel at all the discrepant answers from the "relief crowd"  🙂  

 

As I said before, if you find yourself in a divot, then "suck it up buttercup" and play it as it lies.  If guys are playing with their buddies and want divot relief, then they can be their own committee and declare preferred lies--- No need for new rules.  

 

 

Of the 6 obvious divot holes in that pic, label then from left to right 1 - 6, I would rather hit out of 1, 2, and 3 than 4 or 6.  5 is completely fine. 4 and 6 give the illusion of a valley, which would mess with my head.  

 

Funnily enough, the last time I was in a divot hole was in competition.  It was more like a trench, and was made with a club with a smaller blade than mine.  I had to hack it out of there with no chance at the green.  1, 2, and 3 look like perfect lies compared to that, lol.  

 

Anyway, I've pretty much given up on the divot argument.  

[Newby]

On 3/24/2021 at 5:44 PM, trilerian said:

 

Anyway, I've pretty much given up on the divot argument.  

https://www.golfmonthly.com/videos/long-game-tips/playing-divot-video