Jeff Mann versus Dan Carraher

[pusb365]

But everyone is missing the real question. Does my handicap lower a couple of strokes if I play in spandex/bicycling shorts?

 

If you stuff a couple of socks down there then yes absolutely.

[MonteScheinblum]

Reminds me of a great joke.

 

There was an Italian and a (fill in ethnicity you want to make fun of) body builder who were friend and trained on muscle beach.

 

The other guy says to the Italian, "I am just as ripped and good looking as you, how come you get all the girls?"

 

Italian says, "Tomororw, put a potato in your speedo."

 

So he does, but the Italian still gets all the girls...and he protests the ploy didn't work.

 

Italian says, "Tomorrow, put the potato in the front."

[Mike Divot]

Mr Mann's doctoral thesis reminds me of something .... ah yes ....

 

 

I wonder if at the end of each posting, he exclaims "Oh Mann! You've done it again!"

[notsohard]

Jeff is like the Republicans vs Democrats debates watched outside of the US, we watch them in pubs for the comedy and don't give a shiiiit.

[Forged4ever]

LMAO, I'll be damned, Jeff has his own personal virtual world b****, LMAO

 

"Sense of Honor?????"

 

LMAO, "Sense" this......

 

Oh Dear God, I've seen it all, LMAO

 

All the Best,

RP

[Forged4ever]

He basically said I got results, but didn't understand or know why.

Bro, this is the story of my life and as long as we have a market for those results, f*** em, LMAO!!

 

I think ya understand the hows and the whys, lol

 

I hope that you're well!!

 

Maddie says hey :)

 

My Best,

RP

[BatManOneTwo]

Dan,

 

You wrote in your post-: "This graph clearly shows Grant Waite has a bowed/flexed left wrist at impact and the photo sequence clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended."

 

You state that the photo sequence "clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended". What are you looking at in those photos that allows you to come to that firm conclusion?

 

Also, what is the capture frame rate of the video (from which you produced capture images) and what is the sampling rate of the 3-D system that produces those graphs?

 

Finally, you also wrote-: "Which means his left wrist is BOWED at impact and becomes flat shortly after impact but Jeff reads the graph as showing that Grant is dipping at it."

 

What does the word "dipping" mean in the context of your claim about Jeff's "supposed" reading?

[Forged4ever]

So I guess I'm the only one who agrees with Jeff then??

Bro, you know that I think the world of you and respect your thoughts, views and opinions. In my eyes, you Mitch, Drew, Stu and Dan Drake are without peer.

 

Please explain your thoughts on this

 

Thanks :)

 

My Best,

RP

[Fort Worth Pro]

Dan,

 

You wrote in your post-: "This graph clearly shows Grant Waite has a bowed/flexed left wrist at impact and the photo sequence clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended."

 

You state that the photo sequence "clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended". What are you looking at in those photos that allows you to come to that firm conclusion?

 

Also, what is the capture frame rate of the video (from which you produced capture images) and what is the sampling rate of the 3-D system that produces those graphs?

 

Finally, you also wrote-: "Which means his left wrist is BOWED at impact and becomes flat shortly after impact but Jeff reads the graph as showing that Grant is dipping at it."

 

What does the word "dipping" mean in the context of your claim about Jeff's "supposed" reading?

 

I wasted about 5 minutes of my life skimming your post on this topic Jeff. Your argument about sampling rate on an AMM system is just stupid. If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something.

[Forged4ever]

This chucklehead is a MD????

 

NFW, LMAO

 

Seriously, what's his specialty????

 

I too have a BSc in both Anatomy/Human Physiology and also Physics and what that has to do with teaching a golf swing I'd love to know.

 

He's a friggin MD????

 

NFW, LMAO

 

I realize the profession ain't what it was but there's no way this guy is in private practice, lmao.

 

No way he's in private practice!!

 

Seriously, this is possibly the greatest thread I've had the pleasure of stumbling into, hahaha

 

You guys are the best, even the banned members, LMAO

 

A Physician???

 

No, please, don't get up, I can find my own way out :)

 

My Best,

RP

[iteachgolf]

Dan,

 

You wrote in your post-: "This graph clearly shows Grant Waite has a bowed/flexed left wrist at impact and the photo sequence clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended."

 

You state that the photo sequence "clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended". What are you looking at in those photos that allows you to come to that firm conclusion?

 

Also, what is the capture frame rate of the video (from which you produced capture images) and what is the sampling rate of the 3-D system that produces those graphs?

 

Finally, you also wrote-: "Which means his left wrist is BOWED at impact and becomes flat shortly after impact but Jeff reads the graph as showing that Grant is dipping at it."

 

What does the word "dipping" mean in the context of your claim about Jeff's "supposed" reading?

 

Flipping. It autocorrected

 

I'm looking at his wrist, not my problem you have no clue what you're looking at. Sampling rate and capture rate is a non issue. It's capturing as fast or faster than the video stills you're using. I posted two photos both from perpendicular to the forearm showing Spieth extended at p6.5 and flat at p7.1 and could some at p8 showing him extended. You know the exact same thing 3D shows. The graph shows smooth and constant extension through impact.

 

Like I said you'll never admit your wrong even though all the proof and evidence is staring you right in the face. You're just making yourself look worse by drawing more attention to your ignorance.

[notsohard]

..........more attention to your ignorance.

 

More like the South African "Dutch" arrogance.....don't quote me :taunt:

[Schnee]

If I recall, there's a thread on his forum where someone made an account and responded to him. He scolded the new user and said he was wasting his time and said "I'm the only one that posts here."

 

 

 

EDIT: Found it! http://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/574/monte-scheinblums-approach-ott-problem

[Ghost of Snead]

Dan,

 

You wrote in your post-: "This graph clearly shows Grant Waite has a bowed/flexed left wrist at impact and the photo sequence clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended."

 

You state that the photo sequence "clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended". What are you looking at in those photos that allows you to come to that firm conclusion?

 

Also, what is the capture frame rate of the video (from which you produced capture images) and what is the sampling rate of the 3-D system that produces those graphs?

 

Finally, you also wrote-: "Which means his left wrist is BOWED at impact and becomes flat shortly after impact but Jeff reads the graph as showing that Grant is dipping at it."

 

What does the word "dipping" mean in the context of your claim about Jeff's "supposed" reading?

 

I wasted about 5 minutes of my life skimming your post on this topic Jeff. Your argument about sampling rate on an AMM system is just stupid. If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something.

 

A forum with no members is called a blog.

[Forged4ever]

So I guess I'm the only one who agrees with Jeff then??

Bro, you know that I think the world of you and respect your thoughts, views and opinions. In my eyes, you Mitch, Drew, Stu and Dan Drake are without peer.

 

Please explain your thoughts on this

 

Thanks :)

 

My Best,

RP

Ok, Isaac explained this to me in private.

 

HaHa, I'm a bigger putz than ole Jeffers, lol

 

Thanks Bro for showing me the light :)

 

My Best,

RP

[bph7]

How is this thread still going? Why are we letting Jeff or Cary start a troll thread and run with it? Both are banned. Lock it up...

[isaacbm]

So I guess I'm the only one who agrees with Jeff then??

Bro, you know that I think the world of you and respect your thoughts, views and opinions. In my eyes, you Mitch, Drew, Stu and Dan Drake are without peer.

 

Please explain your thoughts on this

 

Thanks :)

 

My Best,

RP

Ok, Isaac explained this to me in private.

 

HaHa, I'm a bigger putz than ole Jeffers, lol

 

Thanks Bro for showing me the light :)

 

My Best,

RP

http://images.memes.com/meme/405248

[Hawkeye77]

Thank goodness this wasn't locked, Richard will love that.

[Ripper212]

Reminds me of a great joke.

 

There was an Italian and a (fill in ethnicity you want to make fun of) body builder who were friend and trained on muscle beach.

 

The other guy says to the Italian, "I am just as ripped and good looking as you, how come you get all the girls?"

 

Italian says, "Tomororw, put a potato in your speedo."

 

So he does, but the Italian still gets all the girls...and he protests the ploy didn't work.

 

Italian says, "Tomorrow, put the potato in the front."

 

Awesome. I'm borrowing that one.

[BatManOneTwo]

Dan,

 

You wrote in your post-: "This graph clearly shows Grant Waite has a bowed/flexed left wrist at impact and the photo sequence clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended."

 

You state that the photo sequence "clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended". What are you looking at in those photos that allows you to come to that firm conclusion?

 

Also, what is the capture frame rate of the video (from which you produced capture images) and what is the sampling rate of the 3-D system that produces those graphs?

 

Finally, you also wrote-: "Which means his left wrist is BOWED at impact and becomes flat shortly after impact but Jeff reads the graph as showing that Grant is dipping at it."

 

What does the word "dipping" mean in the context of your claim about Jeff's "supposed" reading?

 

Flipping. It autocorrected

 

I'm looking at his wrist, not my problem you have no clue what you're looking at. Sampling rate and capture rate is a non issue. It's capturing as fast or faster than the video stills you're using. I posted two photos both from perpendicular to the forearm showing Spieth extended at p6.5 and flat at p7.1 and could some at p8 showing him extended. You know the exact same thing 3D shows. The graph shows smooth and constant extension through impact.

 

Like I said you'll never admit your wrong even though all the proof and evidence is staring you right in the face. You're just making yourself look worse by drawing more attention to your ignorance.

 

Dan,

 

I asked you what you were looking at when you decided that Grant Waite's left wrist was bowed => flat => extended in those 3 images through impact.

 

You replied as follows-: "I'm looking at his wrist, not my problem you have no clue what you're looking at."

 

Here is a copy of part of your image of Grant Waite's hands through impact.

 

 

When I look at his left wrist to determine whether there is any change in his degree of left wrist extension through impact, I look at those two white dot markers that were placed by the 3-D technologist in the standard position on the back of his left lower forearm and back of his left hand. The proximal dot marker is placed on the dorsum of the mid-lower forearm just above the level of the proximal wrist carpal bones and the distal white dot marker is placed over the 3rd metacarpal head area. Those white dot markers allow one to accurately determine the degree of extension happening at the level of the left wrist joint (relative to the longitudinal axis of the left forearm).

 

Why do you not use those white dot markers as reference points, and what do you actually look at when you simply "look at his wrist"? Do you believe that simply "looking at the left wrist" is more accurate than using those white dot markers as reference points?

[asterisk]

Holy 2d Headache Batman!! Get out of your Bat Cave and stop the insanity!!!

[Fort Worth Pro]

Dan,

 

You wrote in your post-: "This graph clearly shows Grant Waite has a bowed/flexed left wrist at impact and the photo sequence clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended."

 

You state that the photo sequence "clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended". What are you looking at in those photos that allows you to come to that firm conclusion?

 

Also, what is the capture frame rate of the video (from which you produced capture images) and what is the sampling rate of the 3-D system that produces those graphs?

 

Finally, you also wrote-: "Which means his left wrist is BOWED at impact and becomes flat shortly after impact but Jeff reads the graph as showing that Grant is dipping at it."

 

What does the word "dipping" mean in the context of your claim about Jeff's "supposed" reading?

 

Flipping. It autocorrected

 

I'm looking at his wrist, not my problem you have no clue what you're looking at. Sampling rate and capture rate is a non issue. It's capturing as fast or faster than the video stills you're using. I posted two photos both from perpendicular to the forearm showing Spieth extended at p6.5 and flat at p7.1 and could some at p8 showing him extended. You know the exact same thing 3D shows. The graph shows smooth and constant extension through impact.

 

Like I said you'll never admit your wrong even though all the proof and evidence is staring you right in the face. You're just making yourself look worse by drawing more attention to your ignorance.

 

Dan,

 

I asked you what you were looking at when you decided that Grant Waite's left wrist was bowed => flat => extended in those 3 images through impact.

 

You replied as follows-: "I'm looking at his wrist, not my problem you have no clue what you're looking at."

 

Here is a copy of part of your image of Grant Waite's hands through impact.

 

 

When I look at his left wrist to determine whether there is any change in his degree of left wrist extension through impact, I look at those two white dot markers that were placed by the 3-D technologist in the standard position on the back of his left lower forearm and back of his left hand. The proximal dot marker is placed on the dorsum of the mid-lower forearm just above the level of the proximal wrist carpal bones and the distal white dot marker is placed over the 3rd metacarpal head area. Those white dot markers allow one to accurately determine the degree of extension happening at the level of the left wrist joint (relative to the longitudinal axis of the left forearm).

 

Why do you not use those white dot markers as reference points, and what do you actually look at when you simply "look at his wrist"? Do you believe that simply "looking at the left wrist" is more accurate than using those white dot markers as reference points?

 

Those markers show the bottom marker moving from behind the top marker to inline and then in front. Those markets show the wrist extending.

[BatManOneTwo]

Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote the following in post #49 -: " If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something."

 

I agree with you that it would be an extremely dumb idea for a golfer to believe that he can start extending the left wrist before impact, then "magically" stop extending the left wrist from P7 => P7.2, and then start extending the left wrist again to P8 - considering the speed of hand/club motion during the late downswing and early followthrough.

 

However, why do you imply that Jeff Mann harbors that dumb opinion?

 

When Jeff Mann describes his drive-hold hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.2 in that NGI forum thread, he is stating that one should be holding an unchanged GFLW/intact alignment between P7 and P7.2. I suspect that you may not understand that Jeff Mann also believes that many skilled pro golfers maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW throughout the entire downswing between P4 and impact, and he doesn't believe that they are extending their left wrist pre-impact. So, when they continue to maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW between impact and P7.2, there is no significant change in the degree of left wrist extension happening during the clubhead's travel time through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Consider an example of a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/GFLW throughout both the downswing time period and the early followthrough time period between P7 and P7.2.

 

Kelli Oride swing video -

 

Here are capture images from the video showing her late downswing and early followthrough between P5.5 and P7.2.

 

 

Note that Kelli Oride maintains a GFLW (unchanged degree of left wrist extension) throughout that entire P5.5 => P7.2 time period, and she is not extending her left wrist pre-impact. The diagram below the capture images depicts what an observer would note if he were viewing her swing from a birds-eye view perspective - note that her clubshaft remains straight-in-line (from an angular rotational perspective) with her left forearm, which means that she maintains an intact LAFW during that entire time period.

 

Now, let's consider what happens to her clubface between P7 and P7.2.

 

 

Image 1 shows Kelli Oride at impact, image 2 is at P7.05, image 3 is at P7.1 and image 4 is at P7.2.

 

Note that her clubface remains square to the clubhead arc (but obviously not the target) during the P7 => P7.2 time period. That's part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. He is not asserting that the clubface doesn't roll between P7 and P7.2 - and he is only asserting that the amount of roll happening between P7 and P7.2 is the amount needed to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc. If the clubface rolls more than that defined amount, then it would represent a non-DH hand release action.

 

Note that Kelli Oride's clubshaft does not bypass her left forearm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 and P7.2. That is a major definitional part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. Jeff Mann has stated that it is not possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds a significant amount of left wrist extending action (which he has arbitrarily defined as being > 5 degrees of additional left wrist extension) during that time period. In fact, in that NGI forum thread, Jeff Mann has offered to pay Dan (or any other person) $100 if they can prove that it is possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds an additional 5+ degrees of left wrist extension during that time period. GolfWRX forum members (like you) are free to accept his challenge at any time in the future.

[BatManOneTwo]

Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote-: "Those markers show the bottom marker moving from behind the top marker to inline and then in front. Those markers show the wrist extending."

 

I fully agree with your first observational sentence-statement. However, I disagree with your 2nd sentence-statement (which is seemingly based on inductive reasoning). I think that there is a more plausible biomechanical explanation that can more readily explain why the bottom marker is bypassing the upper marker - and it has nothing to do with any additional left wrist extension.

[mukster]

Smart thing is not to engage the guy.

[bph7]

Smart thing is not to engage the guy.

 

Yeh, given OP's last few posts, he's almost certainly Jeff Mann himself, although it could be Jeffy as well just trying to cause trouble. Both are banned.

[asterisk]

Batman is so desperate nowadays he has to pretend he is not Jeff Mann...lol!

[asterisk]

Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote-: "Those markers show the bottom marker moving from behind the top marker to inline and then in front. Those markers show the wrist extending."

 

I fully agree with your first observational sentence-statement. However, I disagree with your 2nd sentence-statement (which is seemingly based on inductive reasoning). I think that there is a more plausible biomechanical explanation that can more readily explain why the bottom marker is bypassing the upper marker - and it has nothing to do with any additional left wrist extension.

 

 

I know what that explanation is....it's because you have 2d vision and that skews all of your observations about anything 3d.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote the following in post #49 -: " If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something."

 

I agree with you that it would be an extremely dumb idea for a golfer to believe that he can start extending the left wrist before impact, then "magically" stop extending the left wrist from P7 => P7.2, and then start extending the left wrist again to P8 - considering the speed of hand/club motion during the late downswing and early followthrough.

 

However, why do you imply that Jeff Mann harbors that dumb opinion?

 

When Jeff Mann describes his drive-hold hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.2 in that NGI forum thread, he is stating that one should be holding an unchanged GFLW/intact alignment between P7 and P7.2. I suspect that you may not understand that Jeff Mann also believes that many skilled pro golfers maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW throughout the entire downswing between P4 and impact, and he doesn't believe that they are extending their left wrist pre-impact. So, when they continue to maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW between impact and P7.2, there is no significant change in the degree of left wrist extension happening during the clubhead's travel time through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Consider an example of a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/GFLW throughout both the downswing time period and the early followthrough time period between P7 and P7.2.

 

Kelli Oride swing video -

 

Here are capture images from the video showing her late downswing and early followthrough between P5.5 and P7.2.

 

 

Note that Kelli Oride maintains a GFLW (unchanged degree of left wrist extension) throughout that entire P5.5 => P7.2 time period, and she is not extending her left wrist pre-impact. The diagram below the capture images depicts what an observer would note if he were viewing her swing from a birds-eye view perspective - note that her clubshaft remains straight-in-line (from an angular rotational perspective) with her left forearm, which means that she maintains an intact LAFW during that entire time period.

 

Now, let's consider what happens to her clubface between P7 and P7.2.

 

 

Image 1 shows Kelli Oride at impact, image 2 is at P7.05, image 3 is at P7.1 and image 4 is at P7.2.

 

Note that her clubface remains square to the clubhead arc (but obviously not the target) during the P7 => P7.2 time period. That's part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. He is not asserting that the clubface doesn't roll between P7 and P7.2 - and he is only asserting that the amount of roll happening between P7 and P7.2 is the amount needed to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc. If the clubface rolls more than that defined amount, then it would represent a non-DH hand release action.

 

Note that Kelli Oride's clubshaft does not bypass her left forearm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 and P7.2. That is a major definitional part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. Jeff Mann has stated that it is not possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds a significant amount of left wrist extending action (which he has arbitrarily defined as being > 5 degrees of additional left wrist extension) during that time period. In fact, in that NGI forum thread, Jeff Mann has offered to pay Dan (or any other person) $100 if they can prove that it is possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds an additional 5+ degrees of left wrist extension during that time period. GolfWRX forum members (like you) are free to accept his challenge at any time in the future.

 

Mann...you are all over the map with your arguments. So much idiocy in one post. First. You can not see left wrist flexion extension at p6 in a 2d face on. Second. You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, te left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing. Try to come up with something a little more coherent before you get banned from here...again. See ya Jeffrey

[DavePelz4]

To quote the Wopper from the movie War Games "The only winning move is not to play the game."