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Jeff Mann versus Dan Carraher


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Dan,

 

You wrote in your post-: "This graph clearly shows Grant Waite has a bowed/flexed left wrist at impact and the photo sequence clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended."

 

You state that the photo sequence "clearly shows it going from flexed to flat to extended". What are you looking at in those photos that allows you to come to that firm conclusion?

 

Also, what is the capture frame rate of the video (from which you produced capture images) and what is the sampling rate of the 3-D system that produces those graphs?

 

Finally, you also wrote-: "Which means his left wrist is BOWED at impact and becomes flat shortly after impact but Jeff reads the graph as showing that Grant is dipping at it."

 

What does the word "dipping" mean in the context of your claim about Jeff's "supposed" reading?

 

Flipping. It autocorrected

 

I'm looking at his wrist, not my problem you have no clue what you're looking at. Sampling rate and capture rate is a non issue. It's capturing as fast or faster than the video stills you're using. I posted two photos both from perpendicular to the forearm showing Spieth extended at p6.5 and flat at p7.1 and could some at p8 showing him extended. You know the exact same thing 3D shows. The graph shows smooth and constant extension through impact.

 

Like I said you'll never admit your wrong even though all the proof and evidence is staring you right in the face. You're just making yourself look worse by drawing more attention to your ignorance.

 

Dan,

 

I asked you what you were looking at when you decided that Grant Waite's left wrist was bowed => flat => extended in those 3 images through impact.

 

You replied as follows-: "I'm looking at his wrist, not my problem you have no clue what you're looking at."

 

Here is a copy of part of your image of Grant Waite's hands through impact.

 

WaiteHands.jpg

 

When I look at his left wrist to determine whether there is any change in his degree of left wrist extension through impact, I look at those two white dot markers that were placed by the 3-D technologist in the standard position on the back of his left lower forearm and back of his left hand. The proximal dot marker is placed on the dorsum of the mid-lower forearm just above the level of the proximal wrist carpal bones and the distal white dot marker is placed over the 3rd metacarpal head area. Those white dot markers allow one to accurately determine the degree of extension happening at the level of the left wrist joint (relative to the longitudinal axis of the left forearm).

 

Why do you not use those white dot markers as reference points, and what do you actually look at when you simply "look at his wrist"? Do you believe that simply "looking at the left wrist" is more accurate than using those white dot markers as reference points?

 

Of course I'm using those dots. They are showing his wrist angles. Again not my problem you can't see what I can. I see exactly what the 3D shows.

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Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote the following in post #49 -: " If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something."

 

I agree with you that it would be an extremely dumb idea for a golfer to believe that he can start extending the left wrist before impact, then "magically" stop extending the left wrist from P7 => P7.2, and then start extending the left wrist again to P8 - considering the speed of hand/club motion during the late downswing and early followthrough.

 

However, why do you imply that Jeff Mann harbors that dumb opinion?

 

When Jeff Mann describes his drive-hold hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.2 in that NGI forum thread, he is stating that one should be holding an unchanged GFLW/intact alignment between P7 and P7.2. I suspect that you may not understand that Jeff Mann also believes that many skilled pro golfers maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW throughout the entire downswing between P4 and impact, and he doesn't believe that they are extending their left wrist pre-impact. So, when they continue to maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW between impact and P7.2, there is no significant change in the degree of left wrist extension happening during the clubhead's travel time through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Consider an example of a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/GFLW throughout both the downswing time period and the early followthrough time period between P7 and P7.2.

 

Kelli Oride swing video -

 

Here are capture images from the video showing her late downswing and early followthrough between P5.5 and P7.2.

 

OrideIntactLAFW.jpg

 

Note that Kelli Oride maintains a GFLW (unchanged degree of left wrist extension) throughout that entire P5.5 => P7.2 time period, and she is not extending her left wrist pre-impact. The diagram below the capture images depicts what an observer would note if he were viewing her swing from a birds-eye view perspective - note that her clubshaft remains straight-in-line (from an angular rotational perspective) with her left forearm, which means that she maintains an intact LAFW during that entire time period.

 

Now, let's consider what happens to her clubface between P7 and P7.2.

 

OrideDHer.jpg

 

Image 1 shows Kelli Oride at impact, image 2 is at P7.05, image 3 is at P7.1 and image 4 is at P7.2.

 

Note that her clubface remains square to the clubhead arc (but obviously not the target) during the P7 => P7.2 time period. That's part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. He is not asserting that the clubface doesn't roll between P7 and P7.2 - and he is only asserting that the amount of roll happening between P7 and P7.2 is the amount needed to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc. If the clubface rolls more than that defined amount, then it would represent a non-DH hand release action.

 

Note that Kelli Oride's clubshaft does not bypass her left forearm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 and P7.2. That is a major definitional part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. Jeff Mann has stated that it is not possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds a significant amount of left wrist extending action (which he has arbitrarily defined as being > 5 degrees of additional left wrist extension) during that time period. In fact, in that NGI forum thread, Jeff Mann has offered to pay Dan (or any other person) $100 if they can prove that it is possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds an additional 5+ degrees of left wrist extension during that time period. GolfWRX forum members (like you) are free to accept his challenge at any time in the future.

 

Mann...you are all over the map with your arguments. So much idiocy in one post. First. You can not see left wrist flexion extension at p6 in a 2d face on. Second. You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing. Try to come up with something a little more coherent before you get banned from here...again. See ya Jeffrey

 

ForthWorthPro - I fully respect your "right" to harbor a different opinion than me. Why do you not reciprocate my goodwill and allow me to express contrary opinions - without implying that I should be banned for harboring contrary opinions (simply because you deem them to be "incoherent")?

 

I agree with you that one cannot see left wrist flexion-extension at P6 in a face-on 2-D capture image. However, I can discern the clubshaft angle (relative to the left forearm) when I view the swing video in slow motion, and I believe that I can correctly deduce that the left wrist must be geometrically flat if the LAFW is intact. You are not obliged to agree with my expressed opinion - but surely you do not need to imply that I should be banned simply because I am expressing a different opinion than you.

 

You also stated-: "You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing".

 

Whose swing are you referring to when you write about the AMM system showing left wrist extension prior to impact? Surely, it cannot be Kelli Oride's swing - because you presumably do not have any 3-D graphs of her swing. Also, if there is any change in flexion-extension in the late downswing between P6 and impact, 3-D graphs usually show increasing flexion (and not extension) - as seen in the following 3-D graph produced by Phil Cheetham.

 

CheethamLeftWristExtension.jpg

 

Note that the green graph demonstrates increasing flexion, and not extension, in the late downswing prior to impact.

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Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote the following in post #49 -: " If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something."

 

I agree with you that it would be an extremely dumb idea for a golfer to believe that he can start extending the left wrist before impact, then "magically" stop extending the left wrist from P7 => P7.2, and then start extending the left wrist again to P8 - considering the speed of hand/club motion during the late downswing and early followthrough.

 

However, why do you imply that Jeff Mann harbors that dumb opinion?

 

When Jeff Mann describes his drive-hold hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.2 in that NGI forum thread, he is stating that one should be holding an unchanged GFLW/intact alignment between P7 and P7.2. I suspect that you may not understand that Jeff Mann also believes that many skilled pro golfers maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW throughout the entire downswing between P4 and impact, and he doesn't believe that they are extending their left wrist pre-impact. So, when they continue to maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW between impact and P7.2, there is no significant change in the degree of left wrist extension happening during the clubhead's travel time through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Consider an example of a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/GFLW throughout both the downswing time period and the early followthrough time period between P7 and P7.2.

 

Kelli Oride swing video -

 

Here are capture images from the video showing her late downswing and early followthrough between P5.5 and P7.2.

 

OrideIntactLAFW.jpg

 

Note that Kelli Oride maintains a GFLW (unchanged degree of left wrist extension) throughout that entire P5.5 => P7.2 time period, and she is not extending her left wrist pre-impact. The diagram below the capture images depicts what an observer would note if he were viewing her swing from a birds-eye view perspective - note that her clubshaft remains straight-in-line (from an angular rotational perspective) with her left forearm, which means that she maintains an intact LAFW during that entire time period.

 

Now, let's consider what happens to her clubface between P7 and P7.2.

 

OrideDHer.jpg

 

Image 1 shows Kelli Oride at impact, image 2 is at P7.05, image 3 is at P7.1 and image 4 is at P7.2.

 

Note that her clubface remains square to the clubhead arc (but obviously not the target) during the P7 => P7.2 time period. That's part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. He is not asserting that the clubface doesn't roll between P7 and P7.2 - and he is only asserting that the amount of roll happening between P7 and P7.2 is the amount needed to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc. If the clubface rolls more than that defined amount, then it would represent a non-DH hand release action.

 

Note that Kelli Oride's clubshaft does not bypass her left forearm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 and P7.2. That is a major definitional part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. Jeff Mann has stated that it is not possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds a significant amount of left wrist extending action (which he has arbitrarily defined as being > 5 degrees of additional left wrist extension) during that time period. In fact, in that NGI forum thread, Jeff Mann has offered to pay Dan (or any other person) $100 if they can prove that it is possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds an additional 5+ degrees of left wrist extension during that time period. GolfWRX forum members (like you) are free to accept his challenge at any time in the future.

 

Mann...you are all over the map with your arguments. So much idiocy in one post. First. You can not see left wrist flexion extension at p6 in a 2d face on. Second. You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing. Try to come up with something a little more coherent before you get banned from here...again. See ya Jeffrey

 

ForthWorthPro - I fully respect your "right" to harbor a different opinion than me. Why do you not reciprocate my goodwill and allow me to express contrary opinions - without implying that I should be banned for harboring contrary opinions (simply because you deem them to be "incoherent")?

 

I agree with you that one cannot see left wrist flexion-extension at P6 in a face-on 2-D capture image. However, I can discern the clubshaft angle (relative to the left forearm) when I view the swing video in slow motion, and I believe that I can correctly deduce that the left wrist must be geometrically flat if the LAFW is intact. You are not obliged to agree with my expressed opinion - but surely you do not need to imply that I should be banned simply because I am expressing a different opinion than you.

 

You also stated-: "You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing".

 

Whose swing are you referring to when you write about the AMM system showing left wrist extension prior to impact? Surely, it cannot be Kelli Oride's swing - because you presumably do not have any 3-D graphs of her swing. Also, if there is any change in flexion-extension in the late downswing between P6 and impact, 3-D graphs usually show increasing flexion (and not extension) - as seen in the following 3-D graph produced by Phil Cheetham.

 

CheethamLeftWristExtension.jpg

 

Note that the green graph demonstrates increasing flexion, and not extension, in the late downswing prior to impact.

 

Actually that graph clearly shows wrist extending prior to impact. Green line is obviously moving downwards prior to impact. Another example of you not knowing what you're looking at. I posted very clear photos showing Spieth's wrist extending through impact along with actual numbers.

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Dan,

 

I posted this image.

 

WaiteHands.jpg

 

You then wrote the following-: "Of course I'm using those dots. They are showing his wrist angles. Again not my problem you can't see what I can. I see exactly what the 3D shows."

 

You state that you can clearly see what the 3D shows in that particular Grant Waite swing. So, can I - and I can see that the 3-D graph shows a marked amount (~20-40 degrees) of left forearm clockwise rolling happening between impact and ~P7.1. Visual evidence of that amount of clockwise rolling of the lower left forearm is also clearly evident by looking at the relative motion of the two white dot markers that were placed on the radial and ulnar side of his left lower forearm.

 

Are you fully cognizant of the implications of that amount of roll motion on the "relative" position of the two markers placed on i) the dorsum of the left lower forearm just proximal to the wrist carpus and ii) over the 3rd metacarpophalnageal joint area - when viewed from a face-on viewing perspective?

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Green line is obviously moving downwards (wrist extension) prior to impact.

It might be hard on the wrist to not be extending at impact. (ie. easily injured).

I would think the hand would at least have the extensor muscles solidly engaged.

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

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Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote the following in post #49 -: " If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something."

 

I agree with you that it would be an extremely dumb idea for a golfer to believe that he can start extending the left wrist before impact, then "magically" stop extending the left wrist from P7 => P7.2, and then start extending the left wrist again to P8 - considering the speed of hand/club motion during the late downswing and early followthrough.

 

However, why do you imply that Jeff Mann harbors that dumb opinion?

 

When Jeff Mann describes his drive-hold hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.2 in that NGI forum thread, he is stating that one should be holding an unchanged GFLW/intact alignment between P7 and P7.2. I suspect that you may not understand that Jeff Mann also believes that many skilled pro golfers maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW throughout the entire downswing between P4 and impact, and he doesn't believe that they are extending their left wrist pre-impact. So, when they continue to maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW between impact and P7.2, there is no significant change in the degree of left wrist extension happening during the clubhead's travel time through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Consider an example of a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/GFLW throughout both the downswing time period and the early followthrough time period between P7 and P7.2.

 

Kelli Oride swing video -

 

Here are capture images from the video showing her late downswing and early followthrough between P5.5 and P7.2.

 

OrideIntactLAFW.jpg

 

Note that Kelli Oride maintains a GFLW (unchanged degree of left wrist extension) throughout that entire P5.5 => P7.2 time period, and she is not extending her left wrist pre-impact. The diagram below the capture images depicts what an observer would note if he were viewing her swing from a birds-eye view perspective - note that her clubshaft remains straight-in-line (from an angular rotational perspective) with her left forearm, which means that she maintains an intact LAFW during that entire time period.

 

Now, let's consider what happens to her clubface between P7 and P7.2.

 

OrideDHer.jpg

 

Image 1 shows Kelli Oride at impact, image 2 is at P7.05, image 3 is at P7.1 and image 4 is at P7.2.

 

Note that her clubface remains square to the clubhead arc (but obviously not the target) during the P7 => P7.2 time period. That's part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. He is not asserting that the clubface doesn't roll between P7 and P7.2 - and he is only asserting that the amount of roll happening between P7 and P7.2 is the amount needed to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc. If the clubface rolls more than that defined amount, then it would represent a non-DH hand release action.

 

Note that Kelli Oride's clubshaft does not bypass her left forearm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 and P7.2. That is a major definitional part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. Jeff Mann has stated that it is not possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds a significant amount of left wrist extending action (which he has arbitrarily defined as being > 5 degrees of additional left wrist extension) during that time period. In fact, in that NGI forum thread, Jeff Mann has offered to pay Dan (or any other person) $100 if they can prove that it is possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds an additional 5+ degrees of left wrist extension during that time period. GolfWRX forum members (like you) are free to accept his challenge at any time in the future.

 

Mann...you are all over the map with your arguments. So much idiocy in one post. First. You can not see left wrist flexion extension at p6 in a 2d face on. Second. You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing. Try to come up with something a little more coherent before you get banned from here...again. See ya Jeffrey

 

ForthWorthPro - I fully respect your "right" to harbor a different opinion than me. Why do you not reciprocate my goodwill and allow me to express contrary opinions - without implying that I should be banned for harboring contrary opinions (simply because you deem them to be "incoherent")?

 

I agree with you that one cannot see left wrist flexion-extension at P6 in a face-on 2-D capture image. However, I can discern the clubshaft angle (relative to the left forearm) when I view the swing video in slow motion, and I believe that I can correctly deduce that the left wrist must be geometrically flat if the LAFW is intact. You are not obliged to agree with my expressed opinion - but surely you do not need to imply that I should be banned simply because I am expressing a different opinion than you.

 

You also stated-: "You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing".

 

Whose swing are you referring to when you write about the AMM system showing left wrist extension prior to impact? Surely, it cannot be Kelli Oride's swing - because you presumably do not have any 3-D graphs of her swing. Also, if there is any change in flexion-extension in the late downswing between P6 and impact, 3-D graphs usually show increasing flexion (and not extension) - as seen in the following 3-D graph produced by Phil Cheetham.

 

CheethamLeftWristExtension.jpg

 

Note that the green graph demonstrates increasing flexion, and not extension, in the late downswing prior to impact.

 

Actually that graph clearly shows wrist extending prior to impact. Green line is obviously moving downwards prior to impact. Another example of you not knowing what you're looking at. I posted very clear photos showing Spieth's wrist extending through impact along with actual numbers.

 

Dan,

 

You wrote-: "Actually that graph clearly shows wrist extending prior to impact. Green line is obviously moving downwards prior to impact. Another example of you not knowing what you're looking at."

 

I fully agree with you that the green graph is obviously moving downwards just prior to impact - so I must be knowing what I am looking at. However, is that green graph accurately reflective of reality in that immediate pre-impact time period? I posed that question to Phil Cheetham, who produced that graph, and he stated that his flexion-extension graph cannot be accurately reflective of reality in that short time period because his 3-D system operates at 250Hz and he can only obtain one sample measurement for every 4-8" of hand travel during that immediate pre-impact time period. Now, although Phil Cheetham accepts the "fact" that his green graph is not accurately reflective of reality in that short/immediate pre-impact time period, I fully respect your "right" to harbor a different opinion.

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Green line is obviously moving downwards (wrist extension) prior to impact.

It might be hard on the wrist to not be extending at impact. (ie. easily injured).

I would think the hand would at least have the extensor muscles solidly engaged.

 

You wrote-: "It might be hard on the wrist to not be extending at impact. (ie. easily injured)."

 

I respect your "right" to harbor that opinion, but I harbor a very different opinion.

 

I believe that it is very easy to avoid having left wrist extension through impact (between impact and P7.2) if one maintains the angular targetward/forward motion of the left arm so that it perfectly matches the angular velocity of the clubshaft during that time period.

 

Consider these capture images of Kelli Oride's early followthrough.

 

OrideMatched.jpg

 

Image 1 is at impact, image 2 is at P7.2 and image 3 is at P7.4.

 

Image 4 is a composite image showing her clubhead motion between impact and P7.4 - see the red curved arrows.

 

The diagram on the extreme right refers to that composite image. It shows that her left hand's forward motion (represented by the blue dots) is perfectly matched from an angular velocity perspective to the forward motion of her clubhead (represented by the orange dots) and that enables her to easily maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW (where the clubshaft does not bypass her left arm) all the way from impact to P7.4.

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Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote the following in post #49 -: " If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something."

 

I agree with you that it would be an extremely dumb idea for a golfer to believe that he can start extending the left wrist before impact, then "magically" stop extending the left wrist from P7 => P7.2, and then start extending the left wrist again to P8 - considering the speed of hand/club motion during the late downswing and early followthrough.

 

However, why do you imply that Jeff Mann harbors that dumb opinion?

 

When Jeff Mann describes his drive-hold hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.2 in that NGI forum thread, he is stating that one should be holding an unchanged GFLW/intact alignment between P7 and P7.2. I suspect that you may not understand that Jeff Mann also believes that many skilled pro golfers maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW throughout the entire downswing between P4 and impact, and he doesn't believe that they are extending their left wrist pre-impact. So, when they continue to maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW between impact and P7.2, there is no significant change in the degree of left wrist extension happening during the clubhead's travel time through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Consider an example of a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/GFLW throughout both the downswing time period and the early followthrough time period between P7 and P7.2.

 

Kelli Oride swing video -

 

Here are capture images from the video showing her late downswing and early followthrough between P5.5 and P7.2.

 

OrideIntactLAFW.jpg

 

Note that Kelli Oride maintains a GFLW (unchanged degree of left wrist extension) throughout that entire P5.5 => P7.2 time period, and she is not extending her left wrist pre-impact. The diagram below the capture images depicts what an observer would note if he were viewing her swing from a birds-eye view perspective - note that her clubshaft remains straight-in-line (from an angular rotational perspective) with her left forearm, which means that she maintains an intact LAFW during that entire time period.

 

Now, let's consider what happens to her clubface between P7 and P7.2.

 

OrideDHer.jpg

 

Image 1 shows Kelli Oride at impact, image 2 is at P7.05, image 3 is at P7.1 and image 4 is at P7.2.

 

Note that her clubface remains square to the clubhead arc (but obviously not the target) during the P7 => P7.2 time period. That's part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. He is not asserting that the clubface doesn't roll between P7 and P7.2 - and he is only asserting that the amount of roll happening between P7 and P7.2 is the amount needed to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc. If the clubface rolls more than that defined amount, then it would represent a non-DH hand release action.

 

Note that Kelli Oride's clubshaft does not bypass her left forearm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 and P7.2. That is a major definitional part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. Jeff Mann has stated that it is not possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds a significant amount of left wrist extending action (which he has arbitrarily defined as being > 5 degrees of additional left wrist extension) during that time period. In fact, in that NGI forum thread, Jeff Mann has offered to pay Dan (or any other person) $100 if they can prove that it is possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds an additional 5+ degrees of left wrist extension during that time period. GolfWRX forum members (like you) are free to accept his challenge at any time in the future.

 

Mann...you are all over the map with your arguments. So much idiocy in one post. First. You can not see left wrist flexion extension at p6 in a 2d face on. Second. You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing. Try to come up with something a little more coherent before you get banned from here...again. See ya Jeffrey

 

ForthWorthPro - I fully respect your "right" to harbor a different opinion than me. Why do you not reciprocate my goodwill and allow me to express contrary opinions - without implying that I should be banned for harboring contrary opinions (simply because you deem them to be "incoherent")?

 

I agree with you that one cannot see left wrist flexion-extension at P6 in a face-on 2-D capture image. However, I can discern the clubshaft angle (relative to the left forearm) when I view the swing video in slow motion, and I believe that I can correctly deduce that the left wrist must be geometrically flat if the LAFW is intact. You are not obliged to agree with my expressed opinion - but surely you do not need to imply that I should be banned simply because I am expressing a different opinion than you.

 

You also stated-: "You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing".

 

Whose swing are you referring to when you write about the AMM system showing left wrist extension prior to impact? Surely, it cannot be Kelli Oride's swing - because you presumably do not have any 3-D graphs of her swing. Also, if there is any change in flexion-extension in the late downswing between P6 and impact, 3-D graphs usually show increasing flexion (and not extension) - as seen in the following 3-D graph produced by Phil Cheetham.

 

CheethamLeftWristExtension.jpg

 

Note that the green graph demonstrates increasing flexion, and not extension, in the late downswing prior to impact.

 

Actually that graph clearly shows wrist extending prior to impact. Green line is obviously moving downwards prior to impact. Another example of you not knowing what you're looking at. I posted very clear photos showing Spieth's wrist extending through impact along with actual numbers.

 

Dan,

 

You wrote-: "Actually that graph clearly shows wrist extending prior to impact. Green line is obviously moving downwards prior to impact. Another example of you not knowing what you're looking at."

 

I fully agree with you that the green graph is obviously moving downwards just prior to impact - so I must be knowing what I am looking at. However, is that green graph accurately reflective of reality in that immediate pre-impact time period? I posed that question to Phil Cheetham, who produced that graph, and he stated that his flexion-extension graph cannot be accurately reflective of reality in that short time period because his 3-D system operates at 250Hz and he can only obtain one sample measurement for every 4-8" of hand travel during that immediate pre-impact time period. Now, although Phil Cheetham accepts the "fact" that his green graph is not accurately reflective of reality in that short/immediate pre-impact time period, I fully respect your "right" to harbor a different opinion.

 

But it's very accurate over a longer period of time and it's steadily moving down. Again how about the obvious photos of Spieth extending from p6.5 to impact? Which you claim doesn't happen even though both photos and 3D say other wise.

 

Which is more bowed? You going to continue to claim there isn't extension of the left wrist in his swing?

IMG_5925_zpsbs4x6koo.jpg

 

250hz would be faster than what a 240fps camera would show. So your suggestion that 3D can't capture fast enough yet a camera can is obviously ridiculous. And it begins extending and continues to extend post impact. It's capturing data at multiple points throughtougt that time frame and you can go frame by frame and see the data. Spieth clearly both on video and on 3D extends left wrist through impact. 3D is measuring and capturing the roll and extension separate from each other. It's not confusing roll and extension.

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Dan,

 

You wrote-: "250hz would be faster than what a 240fps camera would show. So your suggestion that 3D can't capture fast enough yet a camera can is obviously ridiculous".

 

Your first statement is true - because 250Hz is faster than 240Hz. However, your 2nd statement is not true because a Phantom camera can operate at much faster frame capture rates eg. 5,000 - 100,000 frames/second.

 

Here is a swing video of John Oda's swing taken at 8,200 frames/second

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Here are capture images of his hand motion through impact.

 

OdaAt8200Hz.jpg

 

The images are not grainy and the parallax distortion is very small.

 

I think that those capture images clearly show that he maintains a GFLW through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Regarding Jordan Spieth's swing, please present your 3-D graph and images and I will then be happy to comment.

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Dan,

 

You wrote-: "250hz would be faster than what a 240fps camera would show. So your suggestion that 3D can't capture fast enough yet a camera can is obviously ridiculous".

 

Your first statement is true - because 250Hz is faster than 240Hz. However, your 2nd statement is not true because a Phantom camera can operate at much faster frame capture rates eg. 5,000 - 100,000 frames-second.

 

Here is a swing video of John Oda's swing taken at 8,200 frames/second

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Here are capture images of his hand motion through impact.

 

OdaAt8200Hz.jpg

 

The images are not grainy and the parallax distortion is very small.

 

I think that those capture images clearly show that he maintains a GFLW through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Regarding Jordan Spieth's swing, please present your 3-D graph and images and I will then be happy to comment.

 

Already did. The photos are clear and 3D is clear. Left wrist is 26* flexed at p6.5, flexed 6* at impact and extended 11* at p8. You're just as dillusional as Jeff Mann, Mr Martin. And my comment about 3D vs camera is the fact you are using video shot at less than 250hz saying it's more accurate than the 3D. The video of Grant isn't shot at a faster speed than the 3D capture

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Smart thing is not to engage the guy.

 

Yeh, given OP's last few posts, he's almost certainly Jeff Mann himself, although it could be Jeffy as well just trying to cause trouble. Both are banned.

Given his over the top overuse of anatomical terms in his post above, which is a typical move of an insecure passive individual who will attempt to vomit as much technical verbiage as humanly possible either in a spoken statement or a typed/written post/paragraph to show that he indeed has knowledge because Dan, you and others have called him out as not knowing what he's talking about, this is definitely Mann or the OP copy/pasted verbatim Mann's words to give us an anatomical lesson of the hand above, which ironically, is of more use to someone interested in the anatomy of the hand than someone interested in learning how to swing a golf club.

 

bub, you should be teaching undergrad anatomy at a JC or a second/third tier state school somewhere cuz you and I both know you ain't using that MD to treat patients, LMAO.

 

Why a second/third tier state school and not Top Tier?

 

Cuz you're wayyyyyyy too insecure to run with the Big Dogs.

 

S*** brahh, you can't even keep it together on a friggin golf forum, LMAO

 

Its one thing to have people doubt you or disagree with you, and you are obviously a bright guy intelectually, however just having a high intellect and knowledge is akin to just having a 118mph swing.

 

If you can harness it, integrate it within the physical part of your game and master the mental part of the game, you will be a very very dangerous Player.

 

If not, you'll be another driving range diva.

 

Same with intellect and knowledge.

 

It's MENTAL!!

 

It ain't physical and it ain't biomechamical.....

 

It's MENTAL!!!

 

And that's where lil bois like you fall short, regardless of the game or arena.

 

It's a shame you got banned because you're more entertaining than Jonesy and I never thought I'd see the day where I'd see someone who took that spot from Jonesy, lmao

 

If I were Dan, I would not even respond to this garbage

 

He's a Pro with nothing to prove

 

Especially in some mickey mouse thread with a couple of yahoos.

 

"To acknowledge is to give credibility"

 

He's a Pro!

 

Wayyyyy above this garbage

 

Have a nice week Gents :)

 

My Best,

RP

In the end, only three things matter~ <br /><br />How much that you loved...<br /><br />How mightily that you lived...<br /><br />How gracefully that you accepted both victory & defeat...<br /><br /><br /><br />GHIN: Beefeater 24

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Dan,

 

You wrote-: "250hz would be faster than what a 240fps camera would show. So your suggestion that 3D can't capture fast enough yet a camera can is obviously ridiculous".

 

Your first statement is true - because 250Hz is faster than 240Hz. However, your 2nd statement is not true because a Phantom camera can operate at much faster frame capture rates eg. 5,000 - 100,000 frames-second.

 

Here is a swing video of John Oda's swing taken at 8,200 frames/second

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Here are capture images of his hand motion through impact.

 

OdaAt8200Hz.jpg

 

The images are not grainy and the parallax distortion is very small.

 

I think that those capture images clearly show that he maintains a GFLW through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Regarding Jordan Spieth's swing, please present your 3-D graph and images and I will then be happy to comment.

 

Already did. The photos are clear and 3D is clear. Left wrist is 26* flexed at p6.5, flexed 6* at impact and extended 11* at p8. You're just as dillusional as Jeff Mann, Mr Martin. And my comment about 3D vs camera is the fact you are using video shot at less than 250hz saying it's more accurate than the 3D. The video of Grant isn't shot at a faster speed than the 3D capture

 

Dan,

 

You wrote-: "And my comment about 3D vs camera is the fact you are using video shot at less than 250hz saying it's more accurate than the 3D. The video of Grant isn't shot at a faster speed than the 3D capture."

 

I have never claimed that video shot at <250Hz is more accurate than 3D, and you are clearly misrepresenting me. Whenever I have presented capture image "evidence" from swing videos to make the point that the left wrist does not significantly bend between P7 and P7.2, I have always preferred to use very slow motion Swingvision video taken at ~4,000 frames/second or Phantom camera videos taken between 2,400 - 8,200 frames/second.

 

You stated that Jordan Spieth's left wrist is 6 degrees flexed at impact and 11 degrees extended at P8 - based on a 3D study. I have no problem believing those figures. However, the very important question is how much of that 17 degrees of change is happening between i) P7 and P7.2 compared to ii) P7.2 to P7.5 and iii) P7.5 to P8. That is why I wanted to see the actual 3-D graph of Jordan Spieth's driver swing.

 

Here are capture images of Jordan Spieth's followthrough.

 

SpiethDHerTwo.jpg

 

Image 3 is at P7.5. Note that his clubshaft has not bypassed his left arm (from an angular rotational perspective).

 

How many degrees of additional left wrist extension happened between impact and P7.5. Can you make an accurate estimation?

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Dan,

 

You wrote-: "250hz would be faster than what a 240fps camera would show. So your suggestion that 3D can't capture fast enough yet a camera can is obviously ridiculous".

 

Your first statement is true - because 250Hz is faster than 240Hz. However, your 2nd statement is not true because a Phantom camera can operate at much faster frame capture rates eg. 5,000 - 100,000 frames-second.

 

Here is a swing video of John Oda's swing taken at 8,200 frames/second

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Here are capture images of his hand motion through impact.

 

OdaAt8200Hz.jpg

 

The images are not grainy and the parallax distortion is very small.

 

I think that those capture images clearly show that he maintains a GFLW through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Regarding Jordan Spieth's swing, please present your 3-D graph and images and I will then be happy to comment.

 

Already did. The photos are clear and 3D is clear. Left wrist is 26* flexed at p6.5, flexed 6* at impact and extended 11* at p8. You're just as dillusional as Jeff Mann, Mr Martin. And my comment about 3D vs camera is the fact you are using video shot at less than 250hz saying it's more accurate than the 3D. The video of Grant isn't shot at a faster speed than the 3D capture

 

Dan,

 

You wrote-: "And my comment about 3D vs camera is the fact you are using video shot at less than 250hz saying it's more accurate than the 3D. The video of Grant isn't shot at a faster speed than the 3D capture."

 

I have never claimed that video shot at <250Hz is more accurate than 3D, and you are clearly misrepresenting me. Whenever I have presented capture image "evidence" from swing videos to make the point that the left wrist does not significantly bend between P7 and P7.2, I have always preferred to use very slow motion Swingvision video taken at ~4,000 frames/second or Phantom camera videos taken between 2,400 - 8,200 frames/second.

 

You stated that Jordan Spieth's left wrist is 6 degrees flexed at impact and 11 degrees extended at P8 - based on a 3D study. I have no problem believing those figures. However, the very important question is how much of that 17 degrees of change is happening between i) P7 and P7.2 compared to ii) P7.2 to P7.5 and iii) P7.5 to P8. That is why I wanted to see the actual 3-D graph of Jordan Spieth's driver swing.

 

Here are capture images of Jordan Spieth's followthrough.

 

SpiethDHerTwo.jpg

 

Image 3 is at P7.5. Note that his clubshaft has not bypassed his left arm (from an angular rotational perspective).

 

How many degrees of additional left wrist extension happened between impact and P7.5. Can you make an accurate estimation?

 

Yet you're ignoring the fact that it extended 20* from p6.5 to impact and then 17* more from impact to p8. The extension is very linear. You can't see the shaft in relation to lead arm accurately at p7.5 from FO in 2D video. That's the whole point.

 

IMG_5931_zpsmlnezdva.png

 

It's extending rapidly and linearly through impact. It's not even close to being constant or held.

 

I'm not misrepresenting anything. You're holding the stills of Grant Wait as more accurate than 3D by saying that the video isnt matching the 3D data. So yes you're saying the video captured is more accurate than the 3D data even though it's not captured at a faster speed when you use the stills as evidence. You can't claim the 3D data is too slow and then use grainy stills from video that's not shot at a faster speed as evidence. It's not only illogical but the definition of hypocrisy

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Dan,

 

You wrote-: "I'm not misrepresenting anything. You're holding the stills of Grant Wait as more accurate than 3D by saying that the video isn't matching the 3D data. So yes you're saying the video captured is more accurate than the 3D data even though it's not captured at a faster speed when you use the stills as evidence. You can't claim the 3D data is too slow and then use grainy stills from video that's not shot at a faster speed as evidence. It's not only illogical but the definition of hypocrisy".

 

When did I ever state that those Grant Waite still images are more accurate than the accompanying 3-D data? I personally think that they are both inaccurate because of slow capture rates of ~240-250Hz. I have only stated that high quality still images taken at camera frame rates of 2,000 - 100,000 frames/second are much more accurate at assessing the motion of the left wrist during the P7 => P7.2 time period - compared to 3D capture rates at 250-400 Hz. You are misrepresenting me as per your usual tendency, and then you still have the audacity to call me a "hypocrite". Note that I never indulge in ad hominem insults and I only label your opinions re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics as being "wrongheaded" or "incorrect" when I disagree with your opinions. Although I have strongly disagreed with your personal opinions re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics, I have never attacked you (or any other forum member) with any ad hominem insults, and I primarily focus my posts on expressing counterarguments related to a number of topics re: golf swing biomechanics. When I express a counterargument, I am not forcing any forum member to believe my opinions, and I fully expect them to use their independent judgment to agree, or disagree, with my expressed opinions. That's what an OPEN golf forum should foster - it should allow any forum member to express their personal opinion without fear of being ridiculed in an uncivilized manner (as evidenced by many posts in this thread that have been directed at me). Although I have being grossly ridiculed by many posters in this thread, I have never responded in kind, and I only focus my posts on discussion/debate points re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics.

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Fort Worth Pro,

 

You wrote the following in post #49 -: " If you think a player can begin extending the wrist before impact, magically stop extending from 7-7.2, and then begin extending again to 8 then I now understand why you can't play. That might be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard floated in a golf forum and that is saying something."

 

I agree with you that it would be an extremely dumb idea for a golfer to believe that he can start extending the left wrist before impact, then "magically" stop extending the left wrist from P7 => P7.2, and then start extending the left wrist again to P8 - considering the speed of hand/club motion during the late downswing and early followthrough.

 

However, why do you imply that Jeff Mann harbors that dumb opinion?

 

When Jeff Mann describes his drive-hold hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.2 in that NGI forum thread, he is stating that one should be holding an unchanged GFLW/intact alignment between P7 and P7.2. I suspect that you may not understand that Jeff Mann also believes that many skilled pro golfers maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW throughout the entire downswing between P4 and impact, and he doesn't believe that they are extending their left wrist pre-impact. So, when they continue to maintain a GFLW/intact LAFW between impact and P7.2, there is no significant change in the degree of left wrist extension happening during the clubhead's travel time through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2.

 

Consider an example of a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/GFLW throughout both the downswing time period and the early followthrough time period between P7 and P7.2.

 

Kelli Oride swing video -

 

Here are capture images from the video showing her late downswing and early followthrough between P5.5 and P7.2.

 

OrideIntactLAFW.jpg

 

Note that Kelli Oride maintains a GFLW (unchanged degree of left wrist extension) throughout that entire P5.5 => P7.2 time period, and she is not extending her left wrist pre-impact. The diagram below the capture images depicts what an observer would note if he were viewing her swing from a birds-eye view perspective - note that her clubshaft remains straight-in-line (from an angular rotational perspective) with her left forearm, which means that she maintains an intact LAFW during that entire time period.

 

Now, let's consider what happens to her clubface between P7 and P7.2.

 

OrideDHer.jpg

 

Image 1 shows Kelli Oride at impact, image 2 is at P7.05, image 3 is at P7.1 and image 4 is at P7.2.

 

Note that her clubface remains square to the clubhead arc (but obviously not the target) during the P7 => P7.2 time period. That's part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. He is not asserting that the clubface doesn't roll between P7 and P7.2 - and he is only asserting that the amount of roll happening between P7 and P7.2 is the amount needed to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc. If the clubface rolls more than that defined amount, then it would represent a non-DH hand release action.

 

Note that Kelli Oride's clubshaft does not bypass her left forearm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 and P7.2. That is a major definitional part of Jeff Mann's definition of a DH-hand release action. Jeff Mann has stated that it is not possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds a significant amount of left wrist extending action (which he has arbitrarily defined as being > 5 degrees of additional left wrist extension) during that time period. In fact, in that NGI forum thread, Jeff Mann has offered to pay Dan (or any other person) $100 if they can prove that it is possible to prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm between P7 and P7.2 if one adds an additional 5+ degrees of left wrist extension during that time period. GolfWRX forum members (like you) are free to accept his challenge at any time in the future.

 

Mann...you are all over the map with your arguments. So much idiocy in one post. First. You can not see left wrist flexion extension at p6 in a 2d face on. Second. You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing. Try to come up with something a little more coherent before you get banned from here...again. See ya Jeffrey

 

ForthWorthPro - I fully respect your "right" to harbor a different opinion than me. Why do you not reciprocate my goodwill and allow me to express contrary opinions - without implying that I should be banned for harboring contrary opinions (simply because you deem them to be "incoherent")?

 

I agree with you that one cannot see left wrist flexion-extension at P6 in a face-on 2-D capture image. However, I can discern the clubshaft angle (relative to the left forearm) when I view the swing video in slow motion, and I believe that I can correctly deduce that the left wrist must be geometrically flat if the LAFW is intact. You are not obliged to agree with my expressed opinion - but surely you do not need to imply that I should be banned simply because I am expressing a different opinion than you.

 

You also stated-: "You say that the left wrist remains unchanged from 7 to 7.2, that the sample rate on an AMM can't account for the speed through impact and yet say the left wrist isn't extending prior to impact when the AMM clearly shows it is. Third, the left wrist is clearly changing flexion/extension through the entire downswing as shown by AMM. It is not "unchanged" and the sample rate is plenty fast enough to measure throughout the downswing".

 

Whose swing are you referring to when you write about the AMM system showing left wrist extension prior to impact? Surely, it cannot be Kelli Oride's swing - because you presumably do not have any 3-D graphs of her swing. Also, if there is any change in flexion-extension in the late downswing between P6 and impact, 3-D graphs usually show increasing flexion (and not extension) - as seen in the following 3-D graph produced by Phil Cheetham.

 

CheethamLeftWristExtension.jpg

 

Note that the green graph demonstrates increasing flexion, and not extension, in the late downswing prior to impact.

 

You should be banned because you have been banned before and it is against forum rules to have two screen names. You have proven many times over that you cannot play nice with others.

 

I am not talking about that girls swing. I am talking about EVERY SWING EVER MEASURED IN 3D outside of one player. At p6 the angle of the shaft relative to the left forearm has nothing to do with flexion/extension and everything to do with ulnar/radial deviation. The sample rate argument does not hold water because we have enough data that shows the same thing in everyone. It's not like this is one swing. It's literally every swing.

You still have not shown to me how a wrist that is extending before impact can suddenly stop extending from p7-7.2 and then begin re-extending from 7.2-8. That is nonsensical and absolutely is what you are claiming happens.

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Dan,

 

Thank you for posting that 3-D graph of Jordan Spieth's golf swing. I noted that it showed a linear degree of increasing left wrist extension happening between impact and P8 of ~17 degrees, which means that there is only ~8 degrees of change happening between impact and P7.5. If his left wrist was 6 degrees flexed at impact, and there is an additional 8 degrees of extension added between impact and P7.5, then that means that the left wrist is only 2 degrees extended beyond a GFLW at P7.5. That is very compatible with my claim that there can only be an insignificant amount (which I arbitrarily define as any amount < 5 degrees) of left wrist extension beyond the amount needed to establish a GFLW happening if the clubshaft does not bypass the left arm between P7 and P7.2 (which is my arbitrary definition of a DH-hand release action). What I personally contest is the "claim" that the left wrist can extend >5 degrees beyond the amount needed to create a GFLW during the P7 => P7.2 time period and still allow the clubshaft not to bypass the left arm (from an angular rotational perspective). I remain willing to pay $100 to any person who can add an additional 5+ degrees of left wrist extension beyond the amount needed to create a GFLW during the P7 => P7.2 time period and still prevent the clubshaft from bypassing the left arm (from an angular rotational perspective) - because I believe that it is impossible.

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My suggestion is we do a Finite Element analysis. Only then can we get to an accurate solution.

 

We have the solution. The problem is that it conflicts with what preivsouly banned OP has said so he's just gonna keep fighting til he's banned again.

Sorry, engineering humor.

Cleveland XL Classic Driver
TaylorMade RBZ Stage2 Strong 3 Wood
Ping G15 4 Wood
Adams Super S 3H Hybrid
Adams Idea Black CB3 Irons 4-PW
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Dan,

 

You wrote-: "I'm not misrepresenting anything. You're holding the stills of Grant Wait as more accurate than 3D by saying that the video isn't matching the 3D data. So yes you're saying the video captured is more accurate than the 3D data even though it's not captured at a faster speed when you use the stills as evidence. You can't claim the 3D data is too slow and then use grainy stills from video that's not shot at a faster speed as evidence. It's not only illogical but the definition of hypocrisy".

 

When did I ever state that those Grant Waite still images are more accurate than the accompanying 3-D data? I personally think that they are both inaccurate because of slow capture rates of ~240-250Hz. I have only stated that high quality still images taken at camera frame rates of 2,000 - 100,000 frames/second are much more accurate at assessing the motion of the left wrist during the P7 => P7.2 time period - compared to 3D capture rates at 250-400 Hz. You are misrepresenting me as per your usual tendency, and then you still have the audacity to call me a "hypocrite". Note that I never indulge in ad hominem insults and I only label your opinions re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics as being "wrongheaded" or "incorrect" when I disagree with your opinions. Although I have strongly disagreed with your personal opinions re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics, I have never attacked you (or any other forum member) with any ad hominem insults, and I primarily focus my posts on expressing counterarguments related to a number of topics re: golf swing biomechanics. When I express a counterargument, I am not forcing any forum member to believe my opinions, and I fully expect them to use their independent judgment to agree, or disagree, with my expressed opinions. That's what an OPEN golf forum should foster - it should allow any forum member to express their personal opinion without fear of being ridiculed in an uncivilized manner (as evidenced by many posts in this thread that have been directed at me). Although I have being grossly ridiculed by many posters in this thread, I have never responded in kind, and I only focus my posts on discussion/debate points re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics.

 

But you have been banned, and are in violation of forum rules. You are no longer entitled to post in this open forum.

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Dan,

 

You wrote-: "I'm not misrepresenting anything. You're holding the stills of Grant Wait as more accurate than 3D by saying that the video isn't matching the 3D data. So yes you're saying the video captured is more accurate than the 3D data even though it's not captured at a faster speed when you use the stills as evidence. You can't claim the 3D data is too slow and then use grainy stills from video that's not shot at a faster speed as evidence. It's not only illogical but the definition of hypocrisy".

 

When did I ever state that those Grant Waite still images are more accurate than the accompanying 3-D data? I personally think that they are both inaccurate because of slow capture rates of ~240-250Hz. I have only stated that high quality still images taken at camera frame rates of 2,000 - 100,000 frames/second are much more accurate at assessing the motion of the left wrist during the P7 => P7.2 time period - compared to 3D capture rates at 250-400 Hz. You are misrepresenting me as per your usual tendency, and then you still have the audacity to call me a "hypocrite". Note that I never indulge in ad hominem insults and I only label your opinions re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics as being "wrongheaded" or "incorrect" when I disagree with your opinions. Although I have strongly disagreed with your personal opinions re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics, I have never attacked you (or any other forum member) with any ad hominem insults, and I primarily focus my posts on expressing counterarguments related to a number of topics re: golf swing biomechanics. When I express a counterargument, I am not forcing any forum member to believe my opinions, and I fully expect them to use their independent judgment to agree, or disagree, with my expressed opinions. That's what an OPEN golf forum should foster - it should allow any forum member to express their personal opinion without fear of being ridiculed in an uncivilized manner (as evidenced by many posts in this thread that have been directed at me). Although I have being grossly ridiculed by many posters in this thread, I have never responded in kind, and I only focus my posts on discussion/debate points re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics.

 

But you have been banned, and are in violation of forum rules. You are no longer entitled to post in this open forum.

 

Why? Because he is legit? Smart? Not a salesman like Iteach?

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      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #7
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #8
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #9

      Ryan Moore with Axis 1 putter @ 2021 AT&T PB
       
       
       
      Please post any questions and comments here
      • 59 replies
    • 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion
      General galleries
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #1
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #2
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #3
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #4
      Monday Qualifier for Waste Management Open 
      Special galleries
       
      Ping PLD putters - 2021 WMPO Scott Brown with MMT graphite shafts in his ProTo Concept irons - 2021 WMPO TaylorMade putter cover from 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open New Srixon golf balls - 2021 WMPO Bettinardi putters & cover - 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Cameron putters -2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Piretti putters -2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Cameron mallets - 2021 WMPO Odyssey 2-ball Ten - 2021 WMPO  
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      Jason Day's Bag...
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      • 21 replies
    • 2021 FARMERS WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the 2021 Farmers PGA Tour event. Please add you comments in this thread. Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Special galleries:
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #1
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #2
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #3
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #4
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #7
       
      Cameron putters - Farmers 2021
       
      Odyssey 2-ball Ten - Farmers 2021
       
      Project X Even Flow RipTide MX & LX proto shafts - Framers 2021
       
      TaylorMade putter cover for Torrey Pines - Farmers 2021
       
      Sling Shot training aid - Farmers 2021
       
       
      • 47 replies
    • 2021 American Express WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the American Express PGA event.
       
      Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Cameron putters - 2021 American Express
      PXG Gen 4 prototype drivers - new putters
      UST Maymiya LinQ shafts - American Express 2021
      Mitsubishi Kaili & MMT shafts - American Express 2021
      Titleist TSi 2 & TSi 3 hybrids - American Express 2021
      TaylorMade putter cover for Palm Springs/Palm Desert - American Express
      New Aldila Synergy, Ascent & prototype shafts - American Express 2021
      Callaway Apex Pro iron, Epic Driver and fairway, Apex iron & hybrid - American Express 2021
      New Perfect Practice training aids - American Express 2021
      New KBS prototype shafts - American Express 2021
       
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      • 18 replies

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