What's Hogan's secret again?

[oscar@wrx]

I think Hogan simply tried to bend back the right wrist from the top all the way down thru impact. Schlee said this too.

 

Makes sense to me because if Hogan's right hand is more on top of and higher on the left hand, he has to, otherwise the clubhead will be too out and forward. He can't go to his kind of slot if he didn't

[moehogan]

I think Hogan simply tried to bend back the right wrist from the top all the way down thru impact. Schlee said this too.

 

Makes sense to me because if Hogan's right hand is more on top of and higher on the left hand, he has to, otherwise the clubhead will be too out and forward. He can't go to his kind of slot if he didn't

Oscar, no doubt he bent the right wrist back in transition helping him set up his classic P6 look, but what kept the right hand from rolling over with the left through impact? Bertrand talks about "wiping the table" with the right palm through impact ... said that's what the boss (Schlee) taught him. That part is definitely not Hogan.

[oscar@wrx]

I think Hogan simply tried to bend back the right wrist from the top all the way down thru impact. Schlee said this too.

 

Makes sense to me because if Hogan's right hand is more on top of and higher on the left hand, he has to, otherwise the clubhead will be too out and forward. He can't go to his kind of slot if he didn't

Oscar, no doubt he bent the right wrist back in transition helping him set up his classic P6 look, but what kept the right hand from rolling over with the left through impact? Bertrand talks about "wiping the table" with the right palm through impact ... said that's what the boss (Schlee) taught him. That part is definitely not Hogan.

I think Bertrand and Schlee are correct, but note that they're talking intent or feel. There are other things going on, mainly the pivot. Note that as a feel, Hogan turned his hips from the top while keeping other things still (I think he continued what he's doing with his upper body, arms and hands). That gets you into the slot, really inside/deep and low, from there it's a flash. Hogan would have to really keep the right wrist bent, and with left hand squaring, and his right hand more on top of left hand on the grip, that's exactly like wiping the floor with a bent right wrist.

 

The hip turn plus the cup really gets the body way ahead and clubhead really behind and clubface really open. Same hip turn gets the pivot really fast, so even if you use the 3 right hands and wiping the floor feel, it just won't turn over. And I forgot the weak grip

[moehogan]

I think Hogan simply tried to bend back the right wrist from the top all the way down thru impact. Schlee said this too.

 

Makes sense to me because if Hogan's right hand is more on top of and higher on the left hand, he has to, otherwise the clubhead will be too out and forward. He can't go to his kind of slot if he didn't

Oscar, no doubt he bent the right wrist back in transition helping him set up his classic P6 look, but what kept the right hand from rolling over with the left through impact? Bertrand talks about "wiping the table" with the right palm through impact ... said that's what the boss (Schlee) taught him. That part is definitely not Hogan.

I think Bertrand and Schlee are correct, but note that they're talking intent or feel. There are other things going on, mainly the pivot. Note that as a feel, Hogan turned his hips from the top while keeping other things still (I think he continued what he's doing with his upper body, arms and hands). That gets you into the slot, really inside/deep and low, from there it's a flash. Hogan would have to really keep the right wrist bent, and with left hand squaring, and his right hand more on top of left hand on the grip, that's exactly like wiping the floor with a bent right wrist.

 

The hip turn plus the cup really gets the body way ahead and clubhead really behind and clubface really open. Same hip turn gets the pivot really fast, so even if you use the 3 right hands and wiping the floor feel, it just won't turn over. And I forgot the weak grip

 

But he had the pivot, the cup and the weak grip pre-secret ... check out any of the vids made for Power Golf at Augusta in the spring of 1947, months before he said he found the secret, and compare them to vids from 1948. He could still hook the snot out of it with all of those elements in place. Plus, he got rid of the cup usually before P5 and always by P6, so what effect did it have on impact anyway? Bertrand says he got rid of it early in the DS with his "little twist".

 

IMO, the cup was put in at address and maintained by left arm pronation or CW rotation of the left hand/forearm in the BS against the CCW pressure of the right hand. This prevented fanning the club in the takeaway and gave him the ROM to reverse these windings in transition ... again, TB's "little twist".

 

So the question is still what idea did he have one night that summer that he was able to successfully implement during one day at the range?

[oscar@wrx]

Not saying the bent right wrist and wiping the floor are the secret. Just saying it could be really one of Hogan's feels as it made sense to me.

 

The cup gives him the opportunity to flatten the left wrist going down into the slot, which gets the clubhead behind and clubface still open or square (instead of too out and closed, respectively, if left wrist already flat on top).

 

If I'm going to guess what Hogan's secret is, I would say it's the grip, the kind of grip that increases the ability to turn the club to the right and to the left. Exactly the article you posted

[moehogan]

Not saying the bent right wrist and wiping the floor are the secret. Just saying it could be really one of Hogan's feels as it made sense to me.

 

The cup gives him the opportunity to flatten the left wrist going down into the slot, which gets the clubhead behind and clubface still open or square (instead of too out and closed, respectively, if left wrist already flat on top).

 

If I'm going to guess what Hogan's secret is, I would say it's the grip, the kind of grip that increases the ability to turn the club to the right and to the left. Exactly the article you posted

 

Agree with all the above ... well said. My slightly different interpretation of the grip is that if one hand tries to turn the wheel in one direction while the other hand tries to turn the wheel in the other direction, the wheel is stable and does not turn. Trying to turn the wheel in BOTH directions at the same time also explains this ...

 

ww

[AlexCzervic]

Make a partial BS, full wrist set, angled shoulder turn, NO SHIFT, no higher than elbow plane. It may take a while to stop butchering plane, probably too steep, outside in, bent baseline, lousy pivot support..........After you learn partial BS, make downswing on EP with strong and weak grips, you can experiment with your hand motion ideas as well. Alignments + Physics = Feels. The 2HBBP, heavy ball and supination are here.

 

AC

[moehogan]

Make a partial BS, full wrist set, angled shoulder turn, NO SHIFT, no higher than elbow plane. It may take a while to stop butchering plane, probably too steep, outside in, bent baseline, lousy pivot support..........After you learn partial BS, make downswing on EP with strong and weak grips, you can experiment with your hand motion ideas as well. Alignments + Physics = Feels. The 2HBBP, heavy ball and supination are here.

 

AC

 

Thanks, AC, but have worked through all of that years ago. Implemented the hand action back in 2010 ... works like a charm.

 

Just an old timer here trying to pay it forward. LOL.

[oscar@wrx]

Make a partial BS, full wrist set, angled shoulder turn, NO SHIFT, no higher than elbow plane. It may take a while to stop butchering plane, probably too steep, outside in, bent baseline, lousy pivot support..........After you learn partial BS, make downswing on EP with strong and weak grips, you can experiment with your hand motion ideas as well. Alignments + Physics = Feels. The 2HBBP, heavy ball and supination are here.

 

AC

How do you deal with hands and clubhead very low and very near the body or legs when using the elbow plane?

[1lovegolf24]

moehogan.

 

I agree with you assessment of what the hands are doing individually.. R hand CW and L hand CCW..

I am merely suggesting that for the hands to work together, they do no necessarily have to be going in the same direction. I like to think the hands are merely executing our intent to deliver the club face or control club face angle and path through the ball.IMO, this delicate balancing act is executed more on the subconscious level than a simple conscious attempt to maintain control of what both hands actually doing.

I have always struggled with knowing what is happening and executing the explanation. I find intent to swing weight in a circle by feel my swing guide where as ball flight will come from intent to deliver club face and club path angles. What actually happens, what does what, changes constantly and something I have never been able to execute on a conscious level. But as you know, that is just me.

 

Cheers

[AlexCzervic]

Make a partial BS, full wrist set, angled shoulder turn, NO SHIFT, no higher than elbow plane. It may take a while to stop butchering plane, probably too steep, outside in, bent baseline, lousy pivot support..........After you learn partial BS, make downswing on EP with strong and weak grips, you can experiment with your hand motion ideas as well. Alignments + Physics = Feels. The 2HBBP, heavy ball and supination are here.

 

AC

How do you deal with hands and clubhead very low and very near the body or legs when using the elbow plane?

 

If you don't distort the baseline and have right arm structure, drive/support and angled turn, I'm not aware of issue.

 

AC

[oscar@wrx]

Make a partial BS, full wrist set, angled shoulder turn, NO SHIFT, no higher than elbow plane. It may take a while to stop butchering plane, probably too steep, outside in, bent baseline, lousy pivot support..........After you learn partial BS, make downswing on EP with strong and weak grips, you can experiment with your hand motion ideas as well. Alignments + Physics = Feels. The 2HBBP, heavy ball and supination are here.

 

AC

How do you deal with hands and clubhead very low and very near the body or legs when using the elbow plane?

 

If you don't distort the baseline and have right arm structure, drive/support and angled turn, I'm not aware of issue.

 

AC

What should be the right arm structure?

[AlexCzervic]

Make a partial BS, full wrist set, angled shoulder turn, NO SHIFT, no higher than elbow plane. It may take a while to stop butchering plane, probably too steep, outside in, bent baseline, lousy pivot support..........After you learn partial BS, make downswing on EP with strong and weak grips, you can experiment with your hand motion ideas as well. Alignments + Physics = Feels. The 2HBBP, heavy ball and supination are here.

 

AC

How do you deal with hands and clubhead very low and very near the body or legs when using the elbow plane?

 

 

If you don't distort the baseline and have right arm structure, drive/support and angled turn, I'm not aware of issue.

 

AC

What should be the right arm structure?

 

Left arm is a rope and limits the extension of right arm. Right arm keeps rope tense,this gives structure to the arms.

 

AC

[oscar@wrx]

Left arm is a rope and limits the extension of right arm. Right arm keeps rope tense,this gives structure to the arms.

 

AC

Wouldn't relying on extension action of right arm and letting left arm become just a rope get the left shoulder open too much from top to slot position? Wouldn't that also get the hands kept too high from top to the slot?

 

I mean, for me, only using the whole left arm from shoulder to hands to actively push the club while transitioning (right arm pretty much just going along for the ride, except holding on the left thumb with 2 middle right fingers--keeps left wrist cocked) is the only way to get the arms structure down, inside and low enough into the slot while turning the hips. Couldn't do it or at least do it consistently when left arm is not doing the pushing while transitioning with hips

[AlexCzervic]

Left arm is a rope and limits the extension of right arm. Right arm keeps rope tense,this gives structure to the arms.

 

AC

Wouldn't relying on extension action of right arm and letting left arm become just a rope get the left shoulder open too much from top to slot position? Wouldn't that also get the hands kept too high from top to the slot?

 

I mean, for me, only using the whole left arm from shoulder to hands to actively push the club while transitioning (right arm pretty much just going along for the ride, except holding on the left thumb with 2 middle right fingers--keeps left wrist cocked) is the only way to get the arms structure down, inside and low enough into the slot while turning the hips. Couldn't do it or at least do it consistently when left arm is not doing the pushing while transitioning with hips

 

I assure you RIGHT ARM IS WORKHORSE and is the preferred method but not the only way to enjoy golf.

 

AC

[oscar@wrx]

Left arm is a rope and limits the extension of right arm. Right arm keeps rope tense,this gives structure to the arms.

 

AC

Wouldn't relying on extension action of right arm and letting left arm become just a rope get the left shoulder open too much from top to slot position? Wouldn't that also get the hands kept too high from top to the slot?

 

I mean, for me, only using the whole left arm from shoulder to hands to actively push the club while transitioning (right arm pretty much just going along for the ride, except holding on the left thumb with 2 middle right fingers--keeps left wrist cocked) is the only way to get the arms structure down, inside and low enough into the slot while turning the hips. Couldn't do it or at least do it consistently when left arm is not doing the pushing while transitioning with hips

 

I assure you RIGHT ARM IS WORKHORSE and is the preferred method but not the only way to enjoy golf.

 

AC

Oh yes, I believe on the 3 right hands comment. But with left arm like a rope, I just couldn't get down into the slot consistently. Always like a manipulation to me. Plus my left shoulder opens up too much, not much shoulder turn is left for later.

 

If I use the left arm in backswing and continue that left arm backswing pushing action in transition while turning my hips even a bit, my hands gets down and inside enough into the slot, my left wrist flattens, my right elbow gets down and still bent in or leading, and most importantly to me, my left shoulder doesn't open too much so I have more shoulder turn saved up for later. I just couldn't do these with a rope left arm. I think the hip turn pulls and opens the left shoulder and left arm too much if you don't actively push the left arm in transition. Moreover, to start doing this in backswing and just continue it in transition is a very simple thought process, though I must admit it's not easy getting used to a left side dominated thought process if you're a right hander (which I am)

[oscar@wrx]

Make a partial BS, full wrist set, angled shoulder turn, NO SHIFT, no higher than elbow plane. It may take a while to stop butchering plane, probably too steep, outside in, bent baseline, lousy pivot support..........After you learn partial BS, make downswing on EP with strong and weak grips, you can experiment with your hand motion ideas as well. Alignments + Physics = Feels. The 2HBBP, heavy ball and supination are here.

 

AC

By NO SHIFT you mean no weight or feet pressure shifts, or do you mean no plane shift?

 

You think Hogan actively tried to be on the lowest plane possible?

[AlexCzervic]

Plane.

[oscar@wrx]

Plane.

?

 

What's your trick or feel to keep the shaft on plane?

[AlexCzervic]

Right idea + trial/error + feel + results.

 

AC

[oscar@wrx]

Right idea + trial/error + feel + results. Any idiot can yank a club around, you'll have to learn something worthwhile to pull this off. Good Luck.

 

AC

Thank you for the encouragement and very constructive suggestion

[oscar@wrx]

I've found, so far, that the best way to keep the club on plane is the use or feel of the right hand. Left hand is just too inconsistent in terms of getting club on plane. It rolls too much, sometimes it rolls too little, sometimes just right. Now I just try to hold on the base of left thumb with the 2 middle fingers of right hand at address and just keep that feeling all the time. Preset it at address. Then I can now use left side as main swing thought. Not saying it's 100% successful, especially for a hack (like me). But it sure improves consistency substantially. Hacks need more tricks like this I guess. Won't hurt to look for something better to improve though...why I still ask

[AlexCzervic]

Bubba knows a couple.

 

 

 

AC

[Diz]

I like to use the middle finger of the left hand and two fingers of the right with constant pressure in motion ... good stuff

 

I've found, so far, that the best way to keep the club on plane is the use or feel of the right hand. Left hand is just too inconsistent in terms of getting club on plane. It rolls too much, sometimes it rolls too little, sometimes just right. Now I just try to hold on the base of left thumb with the 2 middle fingers of right hand at address and just keep that feeling all the time. Preset it at address. Then I can now use left side as main swing thought. Not saying it's 100% successful, especially for a hack (like me). But it sure improves consistency substantially. Hacks need more tricks like this I guess. Won't hurt to look for something better to improve though...why I still ask

[oscar@wrx]

Bubba knows a couple.

 

 

 

AC

Bubba? What did Bubba say about this?

 

Nice pic. You can clearly see the calluses. Those last 3 middle fingers of left hand, really hard to build up their strength to keep the club from destabilizing at the top. Beginners should focus on this.

 

The pic tells me also that Hogan is a left handed or left side dominated player. So I don't think his left arm is a rope

[oscar@wrx]

[moehogan]

Bubba knows a couple.

 

 

 

AC

Bubba? What did Bubba say about this?

 

Nice pic. You can clearly see the calluses. Those last 3 middle fingers of left hand, really hard to build up their strength to keep the club from destabilizing at the top. Beginners should focus on this.

 

The pic tells me also that Hogan is a left handed or left side dominated player. So I don't think his left arm is a rope

 

No comment on the left arm rope deal, but Hogan is clearly not left handed by his own admission in the interview with George Peper in the September 1987 edition of Golf Magazine. See the exerpt below ...

 

 

GOLF: You were a natural left-hander who took up the game right-handed, weren't you?

 

HOGAN: No, that's one of those things that's always been written, but it's an absolute myth. The truth is, the first golf club I owned was an old left-handed, wooden-shafted, rib-faced mashie that a fellow gave me, and that's the club I was weaned on. During the mornings we caddies would bang the ball up and down the practice field until the members arrived and it was time to go to work. So I did all that formative practice left-handed. But I'm a natural right-hander.

 

 

Hogan used both left and right sides effectively, but to me it's obvious that he was right side dominant. Once one understands how he managed the right arm, it becomes crystal clear.

[Texsport]

If you do what he says in the Life article it will keep the face open. For me it turns a draw into a push slice. If I need to really bend one right I will use the secret. I don't have the skill Hogan had to use it foe a slight fade.

Hogan had a really inside slot with low hands (shaft parallel before impact). Normally that means a shallow AoA but a really arched path. Hook path. He straightened that PATH with a vertical shoulder rotation from there to impact. The cup delayed the supination. The cup straightened the CLUBFACE and delayed or got the CLUBHEAD behind. If one doesn't have a slot as inside and as low as Hogan, the vertical shoulder rotation plus the cup is a path to right and clubface too square/open and clubhead way behind.

 

So I think the cup is more for the purpose of getting into his very inside and low hands slot. A flat left wrist on top would throw the clubhead out too early. Impossible to reach an inside a low slot with that

 

IMO

 

First, Hogan gripped the club with the face slightly open and arched his hands downward as a pre-swing trigger (an old anti-hook move)

 

I think Hogan also used the cupped left wrist to (1) keep the club face outside his hands on the backswing, along with the straight right wrist going back (if he got the club head too far behind him - toward crossing the line - he'd have too great an inside angle of approach on the downswing), and (2) as a timing aid - the beginning of uncapping on the way to an arched left wrist at impact was a timed sequence.

 

He dropped the club head inside and kept it his arms connected to his body, very flat swing plane from the inside, as he aggressively drove his hips toward the target.

 

All combined allowed him to hit it hard from the inside with his right side, but with an open club face that was prevented from flipping by his arched left wrist. Through impact, the arching of the left wrist was actively increasing, sawing the face open. The toe only passed the heel of the club due to body/connected arm rotation around to the left post impact - no hand flip.

 

Hogan figured out what modern swing electronic sensing later demonstrated.

 

A face more degrees open at impact than the degrees of inside approach angle produced fades.

 

Texsport

[moehogan]

If you do what he says in the Life article it will keep the face open. For me it turns a draw into a push slice. If I need to really bend one right I will use the secret. I don't have the skill Hogan had to use it foe a slight fade.

Hogan had a really inside slot with low hands (shaft parallel before impact). Normally that means a shallow AoA but a really arched path. Hook path. He straightened that PATH with a vertical shoulder rotation from there to impact. The cup delayed the supination. The cup straightened the CLUBFACE and delayed or got the CLUBHEAD behind. If one doesn't have a slot as inside and as low as Hogan, the vertical shoulder rotation plus the cup is a path to right and clubface too square/open and clubhead way behind.

 

So I think the cup is more for the purpose of getting into his very inside and low hands slot. A flat left wrist on top would throw the clubhead out too early. Impossible to reach an inside a low slot with that

 

IMO

 

First, Hogan gripped the club with the face slightly open and arched his hands downward as a pre-swing trigger (an old anti-hook move)

 

I think Hogan also used the cupped left wrist to (1) keep the club face outside his hands on the backswing, along with the straight right wrist going back (if he got the club head too far behind him - toward crossing the line - he'd have too great an inside angle of approach on the downswing), and (2) as a timing aid - the beginning of uncapping on the way to an arched left wrist at impact was a timed sequence.

 

He dropped the club head inside and kept it his arms connected to his body, very flat swing plane from the inside, as he aggressively drove his hips toward the target.

 

All combined allowed him to hit it hard from the inside with his right side, but with an open club face that was prevented from flipping by his arched left wrist. Through impact, the arching of the left wrist was actively increasing, sawing the face open. The toe only passed the heel of the club due to body/connected arm rotation around to the left post impact - no hand flip.

 

Hogan figured out what modern swing electronic sensing later demonstrated.

 

A face more degrees open at impact than the degrees of inside approach angle produced fades.

 

Texsport

 

And what CREATES the bow or arch in the left wrist is the left hand trying to turn CCW against the right hand trying to maintain its CW or opposite winding ... left hand working OVER, right hand working UNDER

 

[Diz]

I have found it super hard to hook it with arched wrist and under release .. almost impossible

 

 

If you do what he says in the Life article it will keep the face open. For me it turns a draw into a push slice. If I need to really bend one right I will use the secret. I don't have the skill Hogan had to use it foe a slight fade.

Hogan had a really inside slot with low hands (shaft parallel before impact). Normally that means a shallow AoA but a really arched path. Hook path. He straightened that PATH with a vertical shoulder rotation from there to impact. The cup delayed the supination. The cup straightened the CLUBFACE and delayed or got the CLUBHEAD behind. If one doesn't have a slot as inside and as low as Hogan, the vertical shoulder rotation plus the cup is a path to right and clubface too square/open and clubhead way behind.

 

So I think the cup is more for the purpose of getting into his very inside and low hands slot. A flat left wrist on top would throw the clubhead out too early. Impossible to reach an inside a low slot with that

 

IMO

 

First, Hogan gripped the club with the face slightly open and arched his hands downward as a pre-swing trigger (an old anti-hook move)

 

I think Hogan also used the cupped left wrist to (1) keep the club face outside his hands on the backswing, along with the straight right wrist going back (if he got the club head too far behind him - toward crossing the line - he'd have too great an inside angle of approach on the downswing), and (2) as a timing aid - the beginning of uncapping on the way to an arched left wrist at impact was a timed sequence.

 

He dropped the club head inside and kept it his arms connected to his body, very flat swing plane from the inside, as he aggressively drove his hips toward the target.

 

All combined allowed him to hit it hard from the inside with his right side, but with an open club face that was prevented from flipping by his arched left wrist. Through impact, the arching of the left wrist was actively increasing, sawing the face open. The toe only passed the heel of the club due to body/connected arm rotation around to the left post impact - no hand flip.

 

Hogan figured out what modern swing electronic sensing later demonstrated.

 

A face more degrees open at impact than the degrees of inside approach angle produced fades.

 

Texsport