What's Hogan's secret again?

[moehogan]

OK, so let's talk basketball pass and supination.

 

With the basketball pass, the left hand has to eventually get out of the way so the ball can be propelled by the pushing action of the right hand ... the left can do this by rotating CCW or supinating. If the right hand rotates CCW along with it at the same rate, the ball is spun into the ground ... bounce pass. But if the right hand resists turning CCW at the same rate as the left and remains in a neutral position, the ball can be delivered in the air to the intended target.

 

Hogan's right forearm/hand is clearly supinated at P6 ... belly of the right forearm facing the sky with the right palm facing the caddy due to his bent right wrist. Left forearm/hand pronated at P6. Then, in a flash, both are neutral by P7 and, in most cases, still neutral by P8 with the clubhead not having passed the body center line.

 

So how does one keep both arms from rotating CCW axially at the same rate of speed as the pivot through impact? Well, if you are a gifted athlete, you learn to time that action, but can still succumb to the occasional adrenaline rush and close it down too fast. IMO, there has to be an opposing force that will guarantee complete control of the clubface, that being the right hand/forearm trying to maintain some of its CW winding in opposition to the left and the pivot.

 

You still have the three right hands to apply as hard as you want ... you just know that you've taken clubface rotation out of the picture. And by the way, 5L was never intended to be an exact blueprint of Hogan's swing, rather it was more of a manual to help hackers learn the fundamentals to become decent players.

I think Hogan don't need to supinate or rotate his right hand or wrist CW to stabilize the hands or club. I think HIS layoff is sufficient to provide enough stabilizing opposing force to prevent the supination of the left wrist or hand from being overdone. If at all, I think Hogan's intent is he's TRYING to pronate his right wrist while trying to keep it bent back all the way to impact. My reason for this is because this is the only way to keep the left wrist cocked as it is at his impact position (shaft at impact mimicking shaft at address looking at it down the line). Supinating or rotating the right wrist or hand CW will uncock the left wrist too early and hard, considering his kind of layoff and inside and low slot.

 

Look at my avatar. At that point where the hands are, if the right wrist is supinated, the clubhead would have hit the ground a foot or so before the ball. We can try this at home, hold and then c0ck the club. Then try to supinate the right wrist, and then try to pronate the right wrist. See what happens. Supinating the right wrist will uncock the left wrist, pronating the right wrist will keep the left wrist cocked if not more

Hogan's right forearm/hand IS supinated in your avatar. Arm/hand rotation (supination and pronation) is completely independent from wrist articulations (flexion/extension, RD/UD).

[oscar@wrx]

OK, so let's talk basketball pass and supination.

 

With the basketball pass, the left hand has to eventually get out of the way so the ball can be propelled by the pushing action of the right hand ... the left can do this by rotating CCW or supinating. If the right hand rotates CCW along with it at the same rate, the ball is spun into the ground ... bounce pass. But if the right hand resists turning CCW at the same rate as the left and remains in a neutral position, the ball can be delivered in the air to the intended target.

 

Hogan's right forearm/hand is clearly supinated at P6 ... belly of the right forearm facing the sky with the right palm facing the caddy due to his bent right wrist. Left forearm/hand pronated at P6. Then, in a flash, both are neutral by P7 and, in most cases, still neutral by P8 with the clubhead not having passed the body center line.

 

So how does one keep both arms from rotating CCW axially at the same rate of speed as the pivot through impact? Well, if you are a gifted athlete, you learn to time that action, but can still succumb to the occasional adrenaline rush and close it down too fast. IMO, there has to be an opposing force that will guarantee complete control of the clubface, that being the right hand/forearm trying to maintain some of its CW winding in opposition to the left and the pivot.

 

You still have the three right hands to apply as hard as you want ... you just know that you've taken clubface rotation out of the picture. And by the way, 5L was never intended to be an exact blueprint of Hogan's swing, rather it was more of a manual to help hackers learn the fundamentals to become decent players.

I think Hogan don't need to supinate or rotate his right hand or wrist CW to stabilize the hands or club. I think HIS layoff is sufficient to provide enough stabilizing opposing force to prevent the supination of the left wrist or hand from being overdone. If at all, I think Hogan's intent is he's TRYING to pronate his right wrist while trying to keep it bent back all the way to impact. My reason for this is because this is the only way to keep the left wrist cocked as it is at his impact position (shaft at impact mimicking shaft at address looking at it down the line). Supinating or rotating the right wrist or hand CW will uncock the left wrist too early and hard, considering his kind of layoff and inside and low slot.

 

Look at my avatar. At that point where the hands are, if the right wrist is supinated, the clubhead would have hit the ground a foot or so before the ball. We can try this at home, hold and then c0ck the club. Then try to supinate the right wrist, and then try to pronate the right wrist. See what happens. Supinating the right wrist will uncock the left wrist, pronating the right wrist will keep the left wrist cocked if not more

Hogan's right forearm/hand IS supinated in your avatar. Arm/hand rotation (supination and pronation) is completely independent from wrist articulations (flexion/extension, RD/UD).

I think Hogan's right wrist isn't that supinated at my avatar. Let's remember that Hogan's left hand grip is weak, and his right hand grip even weaker. So his right hand is more on top of the left thumb. Looking at where the club is pointed, we can see where his left thumb is also oriented. And that's where his right wrist is bent back. So it couldn't be supinated as back of his right hand is facing where the club is pointing (10-11 o'clock).

 

Moreover, rotation of wrist isn't independent of bending or cupping, and cocking or uncocking. We were discussing this on the Tom Tomasello thread. When the left wrist is cocked, and the right wrist is bent back, the right wrist HAS TO pronate in order to allow the cocking of the left wrist. If you don't pronate the right wrist, the left wrist wouldn't c0ck fully. In other words, for left wrist to be fully cocked, the right wrist has to be BOTH bent back and pronated

[oscar@wrx]

I think this is also the reason why Hogan have a very different look on his right hand, wrist, forearm, elbow and arm at the top of the swing and transition. I think his right hand, wrist and forearm is more pronated than what we previously thought of

[moehogan]

OK, so let's talk basketball pass and supination.

 

With the basketball pass, the left hand has to eventually get out of the way so the ball can be propelled by the pushing action of the right hand ... the left can do this by rotating CCW or supinating. If the right hand rotates CCW along with it at the same rate, the ball is spun into the ground ... bounce pass. But if the right hand resists turning CCW at the same rate as the left and remains in a neutral position, the ball can be delivered in the air to the intended target.

 

Hogan's right forearm/hand is clearly supinated at P6 ... belly of the right forearm facing the sky with the right palm facing the caddy due to his bent right wrist. Left forearm/hand pronated at P6. Then, in a flash, both are neutral by P7 and, in most cases, still neutral by P8 with the clubhead not having passed the body center line.

 

So how does one keep both arms from rotating CCW axially at the same rate of speed as the pivot through impact? Well, if you are a gifted athlete, you learn to time that action, but can still succumb to the occasional adrenaline rush and close it down too fast. IMO, there has to be an opposing force that will guarantee complete control of the clubface, that being the right hand/forearm trying to maintain some of its CW winding in opposition to the left and the pivot.

 

You still have the three right hands to apply as hard as you want ... you just know that you've taken clubface rotation out of the picture. And by the way, 5L was never intended to be an exact blueprint of Hogan's swing, rather it was more of a manual to help hackers learn the fundamentals to become decent players.

I think Hogan don't need to supinate or rotate his right hand or wrist CW to stabilize the hands or club. I think HIS layoff is sufficient to provide enough stabilizing opposing force to prevent the supination of the left wrist or hand from being overdone. If at all, I think Hogan's intent is he's TRYING to pronate his right wrist while trying to keep it bent back all the way to impact. My reason for this is because this is the only way to keep the left wrist cocked as it is at his impact position (shaft at impact mimicking shaft at address looking at it down the line). Supinating or rotating the right wrist or hand CW will uncock the left wrist too early and hard, considering his kind of layoff and inside and low slot.

 

Look at my avatar. At that point where the hands are, if the right wrist is supinated, the clubhead would have hit the ground a foot or so before the ball. We can try this at home, hold and then c0ck the club. Then try to supinate the right wrist, and then try to pronate the right wrist. See what happens. Supinating the right wrist will uncock the left wrist, pronating the right wrist will keep the left wrist cocked if not more

Hogan's right forearm/hand IS supinated in your avatar. Arm/hand rotation (supination and pronation) is completely independent from wrist articulations (flexion/extension, RD/UD).

I think Hogan's right wrist isn't that supinated at my avatar. Let's remember that Hogan's left hand grip is weak, and his right hand grip even weaker. So his right hand is more on top of the left thumb. Looking at where the club is pointed, we can see where his left thumb is also oriented. And that's where his right wrist is bent back. So it couldn't be supinated as back of his right hand is facing where the club is pointing (10-11 o'clock).

 

Moreover, rotation of wrist isn't independent of bending or cupping, and cocking or uncocking. We were discussing this on the Tom Tomasello thread. When the left wrist is cocked, and the right wrist is bent back, the right wrist HAS TO pronate in order to allow the cocking of the left wrist. If you don't pronate the right wrist, the left wrist wouldn't c0ck fully. In other words, for left wrist to be fully cocked, the right wrist has to be BOTH bent back and pronated

Please reread my post carefully. If the belly or palm side of the right forearm is facing the sky or the caddy (depending on the amount of elbow flexion) at P6, it is mostly supinated along with the wrist and hand ... that's what I see in your avatar. Forearm, wrist and hand all rotate together and cannot rotate independently by themselves ... wrist UD/RD and flexion/extension do have correlations but have nothing to do with arm rotation.

 

Show me a post secret, face on pic of Hogan at P6 where his right forearm is not mostly supinated.

 

[oscar@wrx]

When right wrist is fully bent back, it's Impossible to keep left wrist cocked if you supinate or without pronating the right wrist

[moehogan]

When right wrist is fully bent back, it's Impossible to keep left wrist cocked if you supinate or without pronating the right wrist

Disagree. Again, forearms can be rotated in either direction regardless of whatever combination of wrist articulations are applied. Basic anatomy.

 

Out of here ... need to finish my Christmas shopping. Happy holidays!

 

[oscar@wrx]

Try it, and observe your wrist. You'll be surprised. I was.

 

Happy Holidays to you and your family!

[baloo]

Not trolling, but what's the intent of the thread? Does Oscar know the secret?

[Guia]

There has never been any secret to know. He practiced his butt off, as he said himself "dig it out of the dirt". He never claimed any secret, pure myth.

 

His swing has been photographed and filmed from every angle. If there is any secret it is how he crossed his toes during the swing.

[oscar@wrx]

Not trolling, but what's the intent of the thread? Does Oscar know the secret?

Don't know. That's why I'm asking. Or at least hoping it could start a lively discussion about Hogan's swing

[airjammer]

I have a crazy question or scenario...anybody think hogan could have been using the Mike Malaska downswing feeling? I know everyone would scoff at the idea but this is why I think it is possible.

 

He was as about as shallow as he could possibly get at the top...right arm in almost max external ROM..pretty flat arm swing..I'm sure there are others I haven't stated. On the downswing he might shallow a hair more basically from the left wrist flattening is what I think.

 

What if he was trying to tip the shaft over all the way down?...what would someone do to prevent the hooks? Weak left grip..check..open clubface..check..heavy total weight club..check

 

Go ahead tell me why I'm stupid!! IMG_8565.gif

[oscar@wrx]

I have a crazy question or scenario...anybody think hogan could have been using the Mike Malaska downswing feeling? I know everyone would scoff at the idea but this is why I think it is possible.

 

He was as about as shallow as he could possibly get at the top...right arm in almost max external ROM..pretty flat arm swing..I'm sure there are others I haven't stated. On the downswing he might shallow a hair more basically from the left wrist flattening is what I think.

 

What if he was trying to tip the shaft over all the way down?...what would someone do to prevent the hooks? Weak left grip..check..open clubface..check..heavy total weight club..check

 

Go ahead tell me why I'm stupid!! IMG_8565.gif

Also extreme left side extension (right side bend)...check...late release or uncocking...check

[golfdad907]

If I told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore :golfer:

[moehogan]

If by "Hogan's Secret you are referring to the change he implemented in the summer of 1947 to finally cure himself of the hook that plagued him throughout his career to that point, then you need to understand WHY he hooked and compare his pre-secret swings with post secret swings to find the answer. Many things mentioned in these threads are definitely part of Hogan!s action, but figure out what was NOT present before and was able to be successfully implemented in one range session and battle tested at George May's tournament in August of 1947 in Chicago?

 

Good luck!

[airjammer]

I'm not sure if I believe much of what hogan said to the public. Something like keeping max external rotation of the right arm thru the strike I don't believe could be implemented in one range session and hold up to tournament pressures. I'm more inclined to believe that releasing something would be a lot easier to implement that holding something off.

 

From my own experiences with the hook, I can imagine it driving him crazy. I envision him hitting balls on the range hooking a few and just out of sheer frustration cussing up a storm and saying something like "you sorry sob, if you're going to hook a ball really hook it." Him grabbing his club swinging it back with a temper and on the downswing do everything he can to hook the ball and to his surprise it went straight or barely drawed. He probably hit a few more and produced the same ball flight. Then he probably thought "hmm..I wonder if I weaken my grip a touch if it cause the ball to fade". He does that and the ball goes straight or draws even less. He probably doesn't want to weaken his grip anymore because it messes up his backswing so he takes one of his clubs to the workshop and bends it open. Goes out back to the range and tries to hook the crap out of it and it goes straight or fades a bit. The rest is history.

 

Will will never know what it was. He obviously when what made the golf swing work because other pros he helped later in life seemed to do quite well for themselves

[moehogan]

I'm not sure if I believe much of what hogan said to the public. Something like keeping max external rotation of the right arm thru the strike I don't believe could be implemented in one range session and hold up to tournament pressures. I'm more inclined to believe that releasing something would be a lot easier to implement that holding something off.

 

From my own experiences with the hook, I can imagine it driving him crazy. I envision him hitting balls on the range hooking a few and just out of sheer frustration cussing up a storm and saying something like "you sorry sob, if you're going to hook a ball really hook it." Him grabbing his club swinging it back with a temper and on the downswing do everything he can to hook the ball and to his surprise it went straight or barely drawed. He probably hit a few more and produced the same ball flight. Then he probably thought "hmm..I wonder if I weaken my grip a touch if it cause the ball to fade". He does that and the ball goes straight or draws even less. He probably doesn't want to weaken his grip anymore because it messes up his backswing so he takes one of his clubs to the workshop and bends it open. Goes out back to the range and tries to hook the crap out of it and it goes straight or fades a bit. The rest is history.

 

Will will never know what it was. He obviously when what made the golf swing work because other pros he helped later in life seemed to do quite well for themselves

He experimented with a weak grip as far back as the '30's at the advice of Henry Picard but with no luck. I agree with the unlikelihood of adding external rotation of the right shoulder/humerus ... fact is he had plenty of ER in his pre-secret swing. Got to think simple but out of the box, like maybe a small change in grip pressure ... one that might keep the right hand from rolling over with the left when the adrenaline was pumping? Something even I was able to do in one range session?

 

BTW, when I was a youngster I could hook a sand wedge with a weak grip off of a lie below my feet. LOL.

 

[oscar@wrx]

I'm not sure if I believe much of what hogan said to the public. Something like keeping max external rotation of the right arm thru the strike I don't believe could be implemented in one range session and hold up to tournament pressures. I'm more inclined to believe that releasing something would be a lot easier to implement that holding something off.

 

From my own experiences with the hook, I can imagine it driving him crazy. I envision him hitting balls on the range hooking a few and just out of sheer frustration cussing up a storm and saying something like "you sorry sob, if you're going to hook a ball really hook it." Him grabbing his club swinging it back with a temper and on the downswing do everything he can to hook the ball and to his surprise it went straight or barely drawed. He probably hit a few more and produced the same ball flight. Then he probably thought "hmm..I wonder if I weaken my grip a touch if it cause the ball to fade". He does that and the ball goes straight or draws even less. He probably doesn't want to weaken his grip anymore because it messes up his backswing so he takes one of his clubs to the workshop and bends it open. Goes out back to the range and tries to hook the crap out of it and it goes straight or fades a bit. The rest is history.

 

Will will never know what it was. He obviously when what made the golf swing work because other pros he helped later in life seemed to do quite well for themselves

He experimented with a weak grip as far back as the '30's at the advice of Henry Picard but with no luck. I agree with the unlikelihood of adding external rotation of the right shoulder/humerus ... fact is he had plenty of ER in his pre-secret swing. Got to think simple but out of the box, like maybe a small change in grip pressure ... one that might keep the right hand from rolling over with the left when the adrenaline was pumping? Something even I was able to do in one range session?

 

BTW, when I was a youngster I could hook a sand wedge with a weak grip off of a lie below my feet. LOL.

 

That picture is worth a thousand words

[dlygrisse]

Weak grip

Rotate left arm going back

Cup left wrist

 

You cannot hook from there. In fact most will hit it dead right.

 

 

Hogans "secret" was eliminating the hook. It wasn't a secret to great ball striking, that's an entirely different conversation.

[dlygrisse]

I'm not sure if I believe much of what hogan said to the public. Something like keeping max external rotation of the right arm thru the strike I don't believe could be implemented in one range session and hold up to tournament pressures. I'm more inclined to believe that releasing something would be a lot easier to implement that holding something off.

 

From my own experiences with the hook, I can imagine it driving him crazy. I envision him hitting balls on the range hooking a few and just out of sheer frustration cussing up a storm and saying something like "you sorry sob, if you're going to hook a ball really hook it." Him grabbing his club swinging it back with a temper and on the downswing do everything he can to hook the ball and to his surprise it went straight or barely drawed. He probably hit a few more and produced the same ball flight. Then he probably thought "hmm..I wonder if I weaken my grip a touch if it cause the ball to fade". He does that and the ball goes straight or draws even less. He probably doesn't want to weaken his grip anymore because it messes up his backswing so he takes one of his clubs to the workshop and bends it open. Goes out back to the range and tries to hook the crap out of it and it goes straight or fades a bit. The rest is history.

 

Will will never know what it was. He obviously when what made the golf swing work because other pros he helped later in life seemed to do quite well for themselves

He experimented with a weak grip as far back as the '30's at the advice of Henry Picard but with no luck. I agree with the unlikelihood of adding external rotation of the right shoulder/humerus ... fact is he had plenty of ER in his pre-secret swing. Got to think simple but out of the box, like maybe a small change in grip pressure ... one that might keep the right hand from rolling over with the left when the adrenaline was pumping? Something even I was able to do in one range session?

 

BTW, when I was a youngster I could hook a sand wedge with a weak grip off of a lie below my feet. LOL.

 

That picture is worth a thousand words

 

That pic is a drill he recommended to eliminate an overactive right hand at the beginning of the downswing. Eliminates casting. Hogan wanted both hands working together and wanted to eliminate the right hand overpowering the left. He called the right forefinger and thumb "swing wreckers". Right forefinger presses towards target at impact. See pages 26-31 of 5 Lessons.

[AlexCzervic]

You guys are clueless. It's a new year, pull your head out of your arse and start over the right way.

 

Step 1. Left arm rope, right arm extensor action.

 

Piss, moan and whine about it if you need to cause it's like starting over. This is a basic building block, it is not optional.

 

those that think it's optional.....

[wfwp]

"The ultimate judge of your swing is the flight of the ball." Ben Hogan

[moehogan]

Weak grip

Rotate left arm going back

Cup left wrist

 

You cannot hook from there. In fact most will hit it dead right.

 

 

Hogans "secret" was eliminating the hook. It wasn't a secret to great ball striking, that's an entirely different conversation.

Totally agree with your last statement that the secret was about getting rid of the hook.

 

But three changes in one range session and it "works like a charm" doesn't seem likely even for a golfer of Hogan's stature. Fact of the matter is that the three things you listed, while essential pieces of his action, were actually pre-secret. The proof there lies in the vids shot at Augusta in the Spring of 1947 for the Power Golf pics ... the secret wasn't discovered until a few months later after when he returned home from the PGA Championship discouraged by not making it past the Round of 64.

 

And if a mere mortal such as myself can hit a screaming rope hook with a very weak grip, a completely pronated left arm and a maxed out cup in my left wrist, why would I expect that Hogan couldn't? None of those things will guarantee that the RIGHT hand will not turn over too fast through impact, especially with the flash speed Hogan had in his hands.

 

Sam Snead said it best when asked to speculate about Hogan's secret replying, "He doesn't let his right hand cross over".

 

 

 

[oscar@wrx]

You guys are clueless. It's a new year, pull your head out of your arse and start over the right way.

 

Step 1. Left arm rope, right arm extensor action.

 

Piss, moan and whine about it if you need to cause it's like starting over. This is a basic building block, it is not optional.

 

those that think it's optional.....

AC,

 

How do you layoff with a rope left arm and right arm extensor action?

 

Also, how come I see on some pictures or videos wherein the base of right palm of Hogan gets off the base of right thumb on top of the swing if he's doing right arm extensor action?

 

All the best,

CC

[BrianB]

Weak grip

Rotate left arm going back

Cup left wrist

 

You cannot hook from there. In fact most will hit it dead right.

 

 

Hogans "secret" was eliminating the hook. It wasn't a secret to great ball striking, that's an entirely different conversation.

 

Yup. You can still hook though, if you release that internal rotation of the left shoulder too soon on the downswing. Hogan said part of the secret involved the cupping of the left wrist. But while he always cupped the left wrist, even pre-secret, the article also calls the change here "invisible".

 

http://www.si.com/vault/1955/08/08/604889/hogan-reveals-his-secret

 

The second adjustment—the heart of the secret—was invisible. It was a slight movement of the left wrist on the backswing, cupping the wrist in.

 

I think here that the "feel" of holding that cup as much as possible at the top of the backswing likely also helped to prevent him from releasing his left arm rotation too early on the downswing. To me, the pre and post swings don't differ so much in the position at the top, as in what actually happens at the start of the downswing. I think pre-secret Hogan rotated that arm a little earlier, and had more lag in his swing. Post-secret I think he releases the lag earlier, and rotates the left arm later.

 

The gradual cupping in of the wrist on his backswing was a movement Hogan never committed to "muscle memory" and on which he concentrated during each swing. At the top of the backswing, with the back of the left hand tilted 8° above its normal plane, with club face open to "the widest practical extreme," Hogan felt safe from hooking. "No matter how much wrist I put into the downswing," he explains, "no matter how hard I swung or how hard I tried to roll into and through the ball, the face of the club could not close fast enough to become absolutely square at the moment of impact.

 

 

 

Ultimately though, I think this was a "feel" for Hogan that actually helped him get his timing/sequencing right (especially with the left arm). I suppose that might have helped his ballstriking as well. But I doubt it's something that easily translates to anyone else's swing.

[oscar@wrx]

You guys are clueless. It's a new year, pull your head out of your arse and start over the right way.

 

Step 1. Left arm rope, right arm extensor action.

 

Piss, moan and whine about it if you need to cause it's like starting over. This is a basic building block, it is not optional.

 

those that think it's optional.....

AC,

 

How do you layoff with a rope left arm and right arm extensor action?

 

Also, how come I see on some pictures or videos wherein the base of right palm of Hogan gets off the base of right thumb on top of the swing if he's doing right arm extensor action?

 

All the best,

CC

 

AC,

 

I've tried an inert left arm with extensor action and all it got me is a beautiful looking backswing. When I transition with the hip turn, all it got me is left shoulder opening too much, I surmise because the left arm isn't pushing back in transition to keep the left shoulder as less open as possible. Extensor action isn't enough to pull the left shoulder back.

 

Also, it doesn't cause a dynamic laying off of the club. A left arm continuing to push in transition (and therefore isn't inert) naturally layoffs the club because continuing to push plus the change of direction forces the left wrist to flatten if the right wrist is kept bent back.

 

Lastly, didn't Hogan said that the muscles to use are the inside muscles? How can you reconcile that with right arm extensor action (which involves outside muscles) and left arm inert (which doesn't involve both inside and outside muscles)?

 

CC

[oscar@wrx]

Weak grip

Rotate left arm going back

Cup left wrist

 

You cannot hook from there. In fact most will hit it dead right.

 

 

Hogans "secret" was eliminating the hook. It wasn't a secret to great ball striking, that's an entirely different conversation.

 

Yup. You can still hook though, if you release that internal rotation of the left shoulder too soon on the downswing. Hogan said part of the secret involved the cupping of the left wrist. But while he always cupped the left wrist, even pre-secret, the article also calls the change here "invisible".

 

http://www.si.com/vault/1955/08/08/604889/hogan-reveals-his-secret

 

The second adjustment—the heart of the secret—was invisible. It was a slight movement of the left wrist on the backswing, cupping the wrist in.

 

I think here that the "feel" of holding that cup as much as possible at the top of the backswing likely also helped to prevent him from releasing his left arm rotation too early on the downswing. To me, the pre and post swings don't differ so much in the position at the top, as in what actually happens at the start of the downswing. I think pre-secret Hogan rotated that arm a little earlier, and had more lag in his swing. Post-secret I think he releases the lag earlier, and rotates the left arm later.

 

The gradual cupping in of the wrist on his backswing was a movement Hogan never committed to "muscle memory" and on which he concentrated during each swing. At the top of the backswing, with the back of the left hand tilted 8° above its normal plane, with club face open to "the widest practical extreme," Hogan felt safe from hooking. "No matter how much wrist I put into the downswing," he explains, "no matter how hard I swung or how hard I tried to roll into and through the ball, the face of the club could not close fast enough to become absolutely square at the moment of impact.

 

 

 

Ultimately though, I think this was a "feel" for Hogan that actually helped him get his timing/sequencing right (especially with the left arm). I suppose that might have helped his ballstriking as well. But I doubt it's something that easily translates to anyone else's swing.

This could be. Hogan might actually have a cupped left wrist on top pre-secret, but his intention or feel could be to flatten it. He actually mentioned in Five Lessons that the left wrist should be flat. So this could be his intention pre-secret.

[moehogan]

I'm not sure if I believe much of what hogan said to the public. Something like keeping max external rotation of the right arm thru the strike I don't believe could be implemented in one range session and hold up to tournament pressures. I'm more inclined to believe that releasing something would be a lot easier to implement that holding something off.

 

From my own experiences with the hook, I can imagine it driving him crazy. I envision him hitting balls on the range hooking a few and just out of sheer frustration cussing up a storm and saying something like "you sorry sob, if you're going to hook a ball really hook it." Him grabbing his club swinging it back with a temper and on the downswing do everything he can to hook the ball and to his surprise it went straight or barely drawed. He probably hit a few more and produced the same ball flight. Then he probably thought "hmm..I wonder if I weaken my grip a touch if it cause the ball to fade". He does that and the ball goes straight or draws even less. He probably doesn't want to weaken his grip anymore because it messes up his backswing so he takes one of his clubs to the workshop and bends it open. Goes out back to the range and tries to hook the crap out of it and it goes straight or fades a bit. The rest is history.

 

Will will never know what it was. He obviously when what made the golf swing work because other pros he helped later in life seemed to do quite well for themselves

He experimented with a weak grip as far back as the '30's at the advice of Henry Picard but with no luck. I agree with the unlikelihood of adding external rotation of the right shoulder/humerus ... fact is he had plenty of ER in his pre-secret swing. Got to think simple but out of the box, like maybe a small change in grip pressure ... one that might keep the right hand from rolling over with the left when the adrenaline was pumping? Something even I was able to do in one range session?

 

BTW, when I was a youngster I could hook a sand wedge with a weak grip off of a lie below my feet. LOL.

 

That picture is worth a thousand words

 

That pic is a drill he recommended to eliminate an overactive right hand at the beginning of the downswing. Eliminates casting. Hogan wanted both hands working together and wanted to eliminate the right hand overpowering the left. He called the right forefinger and thumb "swing wreckers". Right forefinger presses towards target at impact. See pages 26-31 of 5 Lessons.

 

Reread the 5L pages that you cited but found no specific reference to anything resembling casting (early ulnar deviation). UD is controlled by only one muscle of the forearm ... the Extensor Carpi Ulnaris. It's insertion point if the base of the LITTLE finger and it plays no role in the flexion of the thumb or forefinger.

 

So how exactly would right thumb and forefinger flexion cause casting (UD)?

[moehogan]

I think the left arm rope thing can be a legitimate feel to help swingers reduce their left arm dominant tendencies and help let the right arm be in charge. He said he spent a year working on getting the left arm correct in the BS ... so left arm in charge in the BS.

 

Right arm takes over in transition, rotating the arms triangle CW to help free the left humerus from the chest and allow the left shoulder to swivel for freer left arm travel. Right arm CW winding creates right shoulder ER allowing better right humerus travel, creating right side bend and synching the entire right side to deliver a body blow with the pivot. That's why you see the gap in the extensor action ... the winding of the arms is being reversed. Left arm moving from CW to CCW, right from CCW to CW.

[oscar@wrx]

I think the left arm rope thing can be a legitimate feel to help swingers reduce their left arm dominant tendencies and help let the right arm be in charge. He said he spent a year working on getting the left arm correct in the BS ... so left arm in charge in the BS.

 

Right arm takes over in transition, rotating the arms triangle CW to help free the left humerus from the chest and allow the left shoulder to swivel for freer left arm travel. Right arm CW winding creates right shoulder ER allowing better right humerus travel, creating right side bend and synching the entire right side to deliver a body blow with the pivot. That's why you see the gap in the extensor action ... the winding of the arms is being reversed. Left arm moving from CW to CCW, right from CCW to CW.

I agree re the inert left arm. I think it is a compensation for left arm bouncing off the chest in transition. But the easier fix is to just keep the left arm pushing in transition, together with the feel of keeping the left arm attached to the chest.

 

I think people concluding that Hogan had an inert left arm is mainly due to the Hogan video describing to Burke Jr. (and another fellow) the right arm action in backswing. I think Hogan is just describing how the right arm folds and should act to let the left arm and left wrist do their things. Right arm should bend in at the elbow and right wrist bend back to allow the left arm to get close to the chest and left wrist to c0ck to the maximum and to maintain that in transition

[oscar@wrx]

I'm not sure if I believe much of what hogan said to the public. Something like keeping max external rotation of the right arm thru the strike I don't believe could be implemented in one range session and hold up to tournament pressures. I'm more inclined to believe that releasing something would be a lot easier to implement that holding something off.

 

From my own experiences with the hook, I can imagine it driving him crazy. I envision him hitting balls on the range hooking a few and just out of sheer frustration cussing up a storm and saying something like "you sorry sob, if you're going to hook a ball really hook it." Him grabbing his club swinging it back with a temper and on the downswing do everything he can to hook the ball and to his surprise it went straight or barely drawed. He probably hit a few more and produced the same ball flight. Then he probably thought "hmm..I wonder if I weaken my grip a touch if it cause the ball to fade". He does that and the ball goes straight or draws even less. He probably doesn't want to weaken his grip anymore because it messes up his backswing so he takes one of his clubs to the workshop and bends it open. Goes out back to the range and tries to hook the crap out of it and it goes straight or fades a bit. The rest is history.

 

Will will never know what it was. He obviously when what made the golf swing work because other pros he helped later in life seemed to do quite well for themselves

He experimented with a weak grip as far back as the '30's at the advice of Henry Picard but with no luck. I agree with the unlikelihood of adding external rotation of the right shoulder/humerus ... fact is he had plenty of ER in his pre-secret swing. Got to think simple but out of the box, like maybe a small change in grip pressure ... one that might keep the right hand from rolling over with the left when the adrenaline was pumping? Something even I was able to do in one range session?

 

BTW, when I was a youngster I could hook a sand wedge with a weak grip off of a lie below my feet. LOL.

 

That picture is worth a thousand words

 

That pic is a drill he recommended to eliminate an overactive right hand at the beginning of the downswing. Eliminates casting. Hogan wanted both hands working together and wanted to eliminate the right hand overpowering the left. He called the right forefinger and thumb "swing wreckers". Right forefinger presses towards target at impact. See pages 26-31 of 5 Lessons.

 

Reread the 5L pages that you cited but found no specific reference to anything resembling casting (early ulnar deviation). UD is controlled by only one muscle of the forearm ... the Extensor Carpi Ulnaris. It's insertion point if the base of the LITTLE finger and it plays no role in the flexion of the thumb or forefinger.

 

So how exactly would right thumb and forefinger flexion cause casting (UD)?

Five Lessons also mentioned that the upper portion of the right index finger is pressing on the right side of the shaft towards the target. So the right hand is definitely doing something in downswing, consistent with the 3 right hands and basketball pass comment