Frost Delays: Tee Time Delay

[Sun Devil]

We've all been there. Frost delay. Golf course tells everyone there will be an estimated delay in the tee times due to the frost delay. Protocol on the tee times is that EVERYONE is moved to a later tee time.

 

Therefore ... the earlier tee times (during the frost delay) are moved to the later tee times displacing the later groups with those tee times. Why? Why should the entire tee sheet be delayed or inconvenienced because of a small number of early tee times that ran into the frost delay?

 

Wouldn't a fairer solution be that those with the later tee times with no chance of a frost delay keep their appointed tee times and that the earlier groups be "worked" in?

 

What am I missing?

[KYMAR]

So if you make an early tee time, you just lose your spot? Just go home?

[LeoLeo99]

We discussed this very topic before. A member from Finland said the early tee times get canceled in his country if there's frost. It's a risk you take by booking the early tee times in Finland.

[KYMAR]

We discussed this very topic before. A member from Finland said the early tee times get canceled in his country if there's frost. It's a risk you take by booking the early tee times in Finland.

 

Oh well if Finland is doing it

[LeoLeo99]

So if you make an early tee time, you just lose your spot? Just go home?

 

That's what happens in Finland. You go home. Or you can stay but you lost your tee time.

 

 

[slc247]

I guess I can cross winter golf in Finland off my list....

[Sun Devil]

So if you make an early tee time, you just lose your spot? Just go home?

 

No ... as I suggested. The early tee times get worked around the later tee times that were scheduled. The point is why penalize everyone as opposed to the few that made the early tee times.

[KYMAR]

So if you make an early tee time, you just lose your spot? Just go home?

 

That's what happens in Finland. You go home. Or you can stay but you lost your tee time.

 

Thanks for further clarifying.

[LeoLeo99]

I guess I can cross winter golf in Finland off my list....

 

Isn't it always winter in Finland?

[KYMAR]

So if you make an early tee time, you just lose your spot? Just go home?

 

No ... as I suggested. The early tee times get worked around the later tee times that were scheduled. The point is why penalize everyone as opposed to the few that made the early tee times.

 

Explain "worked around". How does that happen?

[Splitter]

A few reasons:

 

1. An entire piece of English culture (and American in turn) is waiting your place in line. 1st tee time, first in line. There are bazillions of non golf examples for this in our culture.

 

2. Not enough people would book the early times and it opens up no shows so they lose revenue.

 

3. Do *you* really want to be in the group at 9:00 when they lift the frost delay at 9:07 and that group tees off? Neither do the other three groups from 8:30+ that are yelling at the starter to open the course.

 

4. Waiting golfers are eating golfers. More revenue.

 

Summary: No yelling angry golfers, no lost revenue, increased food revenue.

[VNutz]

So if you make an early tee time, you just lose your spot? Just go home?

 

No ... as I suggested. The early tee times get worked around the later tee times that were scheduled. The point is why penalize everyone as opposed to the few that made the early tee times.

 

Often the earliest guys can be regulars as well, most courses don't want to send them away or upset them. They also tend to be the faster guys intent on finishing as quickly as possible, you usually don't want to put them in the back of the line either. Most everyone can understand weather related delays and not blame the course, you CAN assign blame if you're one of the few moved to the back of the line.

[chris975d]

As a course operator myself, I'm not sure I see the merit in the "Finland" way of handling frost delays. I've been doing this for 20+ years, and frost is actually one of the easiest things to predict. And it varies according to location of course, but frosts usually thaw/melt around the same time each day at a specific location. For my facility, I can look at forecasts about a week or more out, and if the overnight forecasts (for the next days' tee sheets) are temps below 40 deg F, less than 5mph wind, and clear skies...I'm almost certain to have frost delays. And if I do have a frost delay, regardless of how "heavy" the frost is, I know that frost will melt in the 9:30-10:00am time range. I've been at different facilities, and these types of things will vary from location to location, be will be specific for an individual location.

 

Therefore, just block off some/a good portion/all of the tee times before a predicted frost delay. Some course owners won't let you block off all, but if you do something like block off every other time, or only book every 3rd tee time during that predicted delay period, it's not all that hard to catch up once frost melts.

 

The tweak I've made to my way of handling frost delays is to still allow about the first hour's worth of tee times to book at their "desired" time. For me, in winter, this is the 7:45-8:45am time range. Then when I can look and see a very likely frost delay, I block off the next hour and a half or so worth of tee times on the tee sheet. The reason I do it this way is that I've found golfers are creatures of habit...I've done this both ways...let them still book their early times when I know there is frost coming, and the alternate of blocking off all times until 9:45, making this the first tee time available to be booked. It nets out to be exactly the same either way, but for whatever reason, golfers calling in wanting the 7:45 tee time, even if I tell them that I know there will be a frost delay and you won't start until 9:45, still want to book the 7:45 time. I tried it the other way for a few seasons...having 9:45 be the first tee time available to be booked on days I know frost is coming, and they won't book at all that way. For whatever reason, they will take a 7:45 tee time even knowing they won't start until 9:45 or so, and WANT to get here early and wait.

 

But, for a course operator to either book a tee sheet full during the time that they know a frost delay will occur is just poor customer service, period. Again, these things aren't hard to predict, if you've been at a facility for any length of time. Booking a tee sheet through a frost delay is admitting you just don't care if you p**** off customers or not. The main part of our job is creating a good customer experience for every customer, and not sending an hour or two worth of reservations home because you (course operator) are too short sighted to plan accordingly.

[rcain1us]

As a member at my course I have a 6:30ish tee time every Sat and Sun as part of my membership. Non-members are not allowed tee times until after 11:30 (I think).

 

When we get frost, everyone gets pushed and maybe I don't go off until 9:00 but at least I can still get 9 holes in if I have to be somewhere.

 

If we had the Findland model there would be a good 50% drop in membership tomorrow.

[KYMAR]

We laugh at you Finland!

[rcain1us]

We laugh at you Finland!

 

And that's from someone with the word "Cleveland" in his profile!

 

 

 

xx-- Just playing, I used to live in Erie which is very much like Finland, just without the natural beauty

[KYMAR]

We laugh at you Finland!

 

And that's from someone with the word "Cleveland" in his profile!

 

 

 

xx-- Just playing, I used to live in Erie which is very much like Findland, just without the natural beauty

 

Erie PA- crackhead capital of the world per capita.

[Sun Devil]

As a course operator myself, I'm not sure I see the merit in the "Finland" way of handling frost delays. I've been doing this for 20+ years, and frost is actually one of the easiest things to predict. And it varies according to location of course, but frosts usually thaw/melt around the same time each day at a specific location. For my facility, I can look at forecasts about a week or more out, and if the overnight forecasts (for the next days' tee sheets) are temps below 40 deg F, less than 5mph wind, and clear skies...I'm almost certain to have frost delays. And if I do have a frost delay, regardless of how "heavy" the frost is, I know that frost will melt in the 9:30-10:00am time range. I've been at different facilities, and these types of things will vary from location to location, be will be specific for an individual location.

 

Therefore, just block off some/a good portion/all of the tee times before a predicted frost delay. Some course owners won't let you block off all, but if you do something like block off every other time, or only book every 3rd tee time during that predicted delay period, it's not all that hard to catch up once frost melts.

 

The tweak I've made to my way of handling frost delays is to still allow about the first hour's worth of tee times to book at their "desired" time. For me, in winter, this is the 7:45-8:45am time range. Then when I can look and see a very likely frost delay, I block off the next hour and a half or so worth of tee times on the tee sheet. The reason I do it this way is that I've found golfers are creatures of habit...I've done this both ways...let them still book their early times when I know there is frost coming, and the alternate of blocking off all times until 9:45, making this the first tee time available to be booked. It nets out to be exactly the same either way, but for whatever reason, golfers calling in wanting the 7:45 tee time, even if I tell them that I know there will be a frost delay and you won't start until 9:45, still want to book the 7:45 time. I tried it the other way for a few seasons...having 9:45 be the first tee time available to be booked on days I know frost is coming, and they won't book at all that way. For whatever reason, they will take a 7:45 tee time even knowing they won't start until 9:45 or so, and WANT to get here early and wait.

 

But, for a course operator to either book a tee sheet full during the time that they know a frost delay will occur is just poor customer service, period. Again, these things aren't hard to predict, if you've been at a facility for any length of time. Booking a tee sheet through a frost delay is admitting you just don't care if you p**** off customers or not. The main part of our job is creating a good customer experience for every customer, and not sending an hour or two worth of reservations home because you (course operator) are too short sighted to plan accordingly.

 

Thank you. Makes incredible sense.

[Halebopp]

I guess I can cross winter golf in Finland off my list....

 

Isn't it always winter in Finland?

 

Winter followed by a "bit of hope" season followed by a "60F and rainy" season followed by "dark, cold, windy and rainy" season and then its winter all over again. Live up north and you won't see the sun for a couple of months. It's somehow one of the best places to live though, like Canada. :D

[Sun Devil]

I guess I can cross winter golf in Finland off my list....

 

Isn't it always winter in Finland?

 

Winter followed by a "bit of hope" season followed by a "60F and rainy" season followed by "dark, cold, windy and rainy" season and then its winter all over again. Live up north and you won't see the sun for a couple of months. It's somehow one of the best places to live though, like Canada. :D

 

Sounds like Scottsdale.

 

#sarcasm

[Mr. Bean]

As a course operator myself, I'm not sure I see the merit in the "Finland" way of handling frost delays. I've been doing this for 20+ years, and frost is actually one of the easiest things to predict. And it varies according to location of course, but frosts usually thaw/melt around the same time each day at a specific location. For my facility, I can look at forecasts about a week or more out, and if the overnight forecasts (for the next days' tee sheets) are temps below 40 deg F, less than 5mph wind, and clear skies...I'm almost certain to have frost delays. And if I do have a frost delay, regardless of how "heavy" the frost is, I know that frost will melt in the 9:30-10:00am time range. I've been at different facilities, and these types of things will vary from location to location, be will be specific for an individual location.

 

Therefore, just block off some/a good portion/all of the tee times before a predicted frost delay. Some course owners won't let you block off all, but if you do something like block off every other time, or only book every 3rd tee time during that predicted delay period, it's not all that hard to catch up once frost melts.

 

 

When exactly do you block those tee times? Day before? Two days before?

 

I do not see any difference if you block Tuesday tee times on Monday or Tuesday morning. As you are capable of checking the forecast so is everyone else and it is not that hard to guess whether there will be a frost delay if the prediction is -3C in the night. (EDIT2: Maybe it is not clear to all but around here all members book their own teetimes online and they can book them up to 2 weeks beforehand. It is pretty hard to know if there will be a frost delay 2 weeks or even one week from now, don't you think..?)

 

As I explained in the previous thread this is a risk everyone here in Finland may take and it may sound bad for those who just miss the delay but there are reasons why we keep this system and have had it for decades.

- when earlier groups are not pushed in between very slow rounds are avoided and people who were clever enough to book a late teetime will reach the clubhouse before dark (a major issue!)

- if the first in line would start first whenever the delay is over there would be no risk for those who take the first teetime available. However, the risk would be transferred to the people in later groups meaning they would have no control over their own time

- in the morning there is real time information on the home page of each club and people do not have to drive to the course to hear what is to be expected but they can do that at home

 

There are ups and downs in both systems but this is how we operate, and as everyone knows how it works I have not heard too many suggestions to change it.

 

EDIT: One more thing: we do not have starters on any course so it would be a real hassle to fit those extra groups in there as there would be nobody to control things at the 1st tee. Some very long rounds would be expected and that is no joy to anyone.

[chris975d]

As a course operator myself, I'm not sure I see the merit in the "Finland" way of handling frost delays. I've been doing this for 20+ years, and frost is actually one of the easiest things to predict. And it varies according to location of course, but frosts usually thaw/melt around the same time each day at a specific location. For my facility, I can look at forecasts about a week or more out, and if the overnight forecasts (for the next days' tee sheets) are temps below 40 deg F, less than 5mph wind, and clear skies...I'm almost certain to have frost delays. And if I do have a frost delay, regardless of how "heavy" the frost is, I know that frost will melt in the 9:30-10:00am time range. I've been at different facilities, and these types of things will vary from location to location, be will be specific for an individual location.

 

Therefore, just block off some/a good portion/all of the tee times before a predicted frost delay. Some course owners won't let you block off all, but if you do something like block off every other time, or only book every 3rd tee time during that predicted delay period, it's not all that hard to catch up once frost melts.

 

 

When exactly do you block those tee times? Day before? Two days before?

 

I do not see any difference if you block Tuesday tee times on Monday or Tuesday morning. As you are capable of checking the forecast so is everyone else and it is not that hard to guess whether there will be a frost delay if the prediction is -3C in the night. (EDIT2: Maybe it is not clear to all but around here all members book their own teetimes online and they can book them up to 2 weeks beforehand. It is pretty hard to know if there will be a frost delay 2 weeks or even one week from now, don't you think..?)

 

As I explained in the previous thread this is a risk everyone here in Finland may take and it may sound bad for those who just miss the delay but there are reasons why we keep this system and have had it for decades.

- when earlier groups are not pushed in between very slow rounds are avoided and people who were clever enough to book a late teetime will reach the clubhouse before dark (a major issue!)

- if the first in line would start first whenever the delay is over there would be no risk for those who take the first teetime available. However, the risk would be transferred to the people in later groups meaning they would have no control over their own time

- in the morning there is real time information on the home page of each club and people do not have to drive to the course to hear what is to be expected but they can do that at home

 

There are ups and downs in both systems but this is how we operate, and as everyone knows how it works I have not heard too many suggestions to change it.

 

EDIT: One more thing: we do not have starters on any course so it would be a real hassle to fit those extra groups in there as there would be nobody to control things at the 1st tee. Some very long rounds would be expected and that is no joy to anyone.

 

As far as when I block tee times, like I said, I can look at the forecast and pay attention to weather trends and block for frost delays anywhere from 7-10 days out. I have approx. 100% accuracy in frost prediction 4-5 days out. I can see right now that I won't have any opportunity here for frost until approximately the 27th, but even then it'll be a very high percentage of rain, which will more than likely negate a frost delay. If that somehow changes, then the system I have in place already will allow me to still have my booked my first hour's worth of tee times, with tee times blocked off behind them for safe measure, and as we get closer if that forecast changes a few days out and no frost is expected, I can unblock those times and easily fill them.

 

I get that the "Finland" system works there, as it's apparently been in place for quite some time. But that system wouldn't really ever work here. And as I stated before, it's not really hard to have a system where you predict and plan for frost delays accordingly. But it does take someone (course operations) who cares to research that info and plan for it. Can't take a passive approach and just cancel tee times if you wake up to a frost.

 

Both systems can obviously work if the customers are used to them. I prefer my system because with the little bit of extra effort and planning, I have virtually zero chance of having to cancel a large group of customers' tee times and ticking very valuable customers off. Fortunately I've built a loyal and avid customer base that allows me to fill up any times I unblock 4-5 days out because I have missed a frost delay prediction.

[rogolf]

I had a high-school math teacher that used to say "go ahead and do it your own ugly way; just come up with the right answer." In this situation, there is no precise answer, but I certainly do favor the use of prior knowledge and experience to predict the answer that satisfies the most customers.

[cbbaron]

We've all been there. Frost delay. Golf course tells everyone there will be an estimated delay in the tee times due to the frost delay. Protocol on the tee times is that EVERYONE is moved to a later tee time.

 

Therefore ... the earlier tee times (during the frost delay) are moved to the later tee times displacing the later groups with those tee times. Why? Why should the entire tee sheet be delayed or inconvenienced because of a small number of early tee times that ran into the frost delay?

 

Wouldn't a fairer solution be that those with the later tee times with no chance of a frost delay keep their appointed tee times and that the earlier groups be "worked" in?

 

What am I missing?

As a frequent visitor to Scottsdale I encounter frost delays occasionally like I played Grayhawk this past Christmas day with a flight scheduled for 330 I booked the second tee time of the day anticipating a frost delay figuring Id get bumped an hour. I play approx ten rounds a year at Grayhawk if I got bumped out of my tee time what would the likely hood be that I would be upset and play elsewhere?

[LeoLeo99]

We've all been there. Frost delay. Golf course tells everyone there will be an estimated delay in the tee times due to the frost delay. Protocol on the tee times is that EVERYONE is moved to a later tee time.

 

Therefore ... the earlier tee times (during the frost delay) are moved to the later tee times displacing the later groups with those tee times. Why? Why should the entire tee sheet be delayed or inconvenienced because of a small number of early tee times that ran into the frost delay?

 

Wouldn't a fairer solution be that those with the later tee times with no chance of a frost delay keep their appointed tee times and that the earlier groups be "worked" in?

 

What am I missing?

As a frequent visitor to Scottsdale I encounter frost delays occasionally like I played Grayhawk this past Christmas day with a flight scheduled for 330 I booked the second tee time of the day anticipating a frost delay figuring Id get bumped an hour. I play approx ten rounds a year at Grayhawk if I got bumped out of my tee time what would the likely hood be that I would be upset and play elsewhere?

 

It's all about managing expectations.

[Eidolon]

In some of these versions, if the smart guy who thought about the weather and booked a 10:00 tee time has to wait a hour until 11:00 so you can tee off the jerks who booked 7:30 , knowing of the frost & knowing the pro would still let his group go out first is a good way to do this?

Glad I don't play at your course.

[Mr. Bean]

In some of these versions, if the smart guy who thought about the weather and booked a 10:00 tee time has to wait a hour until 11:00 so you can tee off the jerks who booked 7:30 , knowing of the frost & knowing the pro would still let his group go out first is a good way to do this?

Glad I don't play at your course.

 

I believe you put in words one of the major reasons why we do not postpone the tee times but cancel them.

 

But, there is a saying 'One likes the daughter and the other likes the mother'. Here in Finland we tend to add '.. and the Swede likes his father..'

 

But, that is another story :-)

[Socrates]

I can see the Finland model working IF everyone is from there. Very hard to do when the course is a resort destination and books months out in advance.

 

This kind of problem exists for places like Phoenix or Palm Springs where people book their times weeks or months in advance. Sure you (the course operator) know that frost is a risk at certain times of the year, but you can't block off time or tell the customer and/or the course owner you are blocking off thousands of dollars worth of tee times because there might be frost 12 weeks from now.

 

Just the same way you aren't going to tell a customer(s) who might have booked months ago and flown halfway across the country, that there was a frost delay during their tee time and they have to go home. The prudent thing is to back people up. Most will stay and some will go because they can't wait, but at least they have the option.

 

Unless you are EmperorPenguin and you are unconvinced that frost delays are real. Then none of this matters.

[QEight]

Just the same way you aren't going to tell a customer(s) who might have booked months ago and flown halfway across the country, that there was a frost delay during their tee time and they have to go home. The prudent thing is to back people up. Most will stay and some will go because they can't wait, but at least they have the option.

 

No ideal situation, but after flying across the country and being able to play 14 holes dues to darkness is also not very good. But at least you played.

[Bonneville85308]

At my club, when there is a frost delay everyone is moved to a later time, but if there are gaps in the tee sheet, the times "compress" so the first group on the sheet may have an hour delay but someone who had a 11am time with nobody signed up in the 45 minutes before him may only be delayed a few minutes. Nobody is kicked off the tee sheet. As frost delay season approaches, the club gradually makes the first tee time available a later time, but we still have these knuckleheads who want to tee off at 8am when it is pretty much a 100% guarantee they will be frost delayed to 9:30am or later.