Signs your iron shafts are too heavy?

[Z1ggy16]

Went from Mizuno Hot Metal with Modus 105 stiff to MP 54's with s300s. Weight difference I think is too much here as now many of my shots are going pretty low and very blocky or slice. I have to move the ball up in my stance by quite a bit in order for the club to release. With my Hot Metals I often hit draws or sometimes more of a hook and now with these heavier shafts it's the total opposite. They are pretty much not playable at this point and I feel like my distances have down more than expected.

 

Is it safe to assume that for now I should just stick my old Modus 105 shafts in the MP 54's then maybe go get another fitting to see if I now fall somewhere in between?

[Lord Helmet]

Your body is not used to the heft. Id go back to what you were playing, and having success with.

[Stuart_G]

I wouldn't say it's safe to assume that - but it is certainly a possibility. Do they feel too heavy to you? Do you feel like you have to work harder to swing them? Any noticeable change to your rhythm during the swing or grip pressure?

 

What prompted the change to the DG s300's in the first place?

 

In addition to the weight difference the bend profiles of those two shafts are very different, the DG s300's would be significantly stiffer to most. Also, we know nothing about how the SW might be different or the same. And that's assuming the same grip and grip size was being used for both sets.

[Z1ggy16]

I wouldn't say it's safe to assume that - but it is certainly a possibility. Do they feel too heavy to you? Do you feel like you have to work harder to swing them? Any noticeable change to your rhythm during the swing or grip pressure?

 

What prompted the change to the DG s300's in the first place?

 

In addition to the weight difference the bend profiles of those two shafts are very different, the DG s300's would be significantly stiffer to most. Also, we know nothing about how the SW might be different or the same. And that's assuming the same grip and grip size was being used for both sets.

I swung my old 5i and the new 5i back to back. It doesn't feel noticeably heavier but what I do notice is that I do feel like I have to grip harder and my forearms feel more "worked" after a bucket of balls. The Modus 105 shafts always felt pretty effortless and I do feel like I have to work harder to keep the swing speed the same.

 

The change was because that was shaft that came in the order... I purchased these used and I figured I'd wait to do extensive testing before making any changes. I hit them in store a few times before and the 7i felt okay but I did notice more left in my flight than before. For whatever reason the last 2 times I've used them, I struggled.

 

Grips in my hand feel the same, but they are different. No clue about SW either... I could check the specs out but that's no indication of what they actually came out to be.

[Stuart_G]

Unfortunately, for some people there can be a fine line between too heavy and too stiff - since both can give the impression of needing more effort to swing "properly" (and could result in the same side effects). In the first case simply because they are heavier, in the second because it may feel like you need to swing harder to get the shaft to 'load' the way one might expect it should load.

 

However, weight would be the first thing to rule out and probably more likely the issue, we just can't be completely certain w/o doing some tests that can test each of those shaft properties independently.

 

But if you know the Nippon 105's work well for you and you don't have any specific problems with them that you feel need to be addressed, then the distinction may not be that important and going back to them would seem to be the safest bet until more testing can be done.

[Z1ggy16]

Unfortunately, for some people there can be a fine line between too heavy and too stiff - since both can give the impression of needing more effort to swing "properly" (and could result in the same side effects). In the first case simply because they are heavier, in the second because it may feel like you need to swing harder to get the shaft to 'load' the way one might expect it should load.

 

However, weight would be the first thing to rule out and probably more likely the issue, we just can't be completely certain w/o doing some tests that can test each of those shaft properties independently.

 

But if you know the Nippon 105's work well for you and you don't have any specific problems with them that you feel need to be addressed, then the distinction may not be that important and going back to them would seem to be the safest bet until more testing can be done.

Yeah that's the main thing is the effort required to "load" these. I swing them fine on my wedges, but I'm not trying to ever "load" my 30 yard pitch. I definitely feel I can load the 105's properly, although to me that feeling of load is different than on a graphite shaft. The weight doesn't seem to feel massively different to be honest, it's just the stiffness I think that's maybe giving me that sensation. To me, they feel like a slightly heavier project X shaft, and I disliked those very much.

 

Guess I'll be paying a few bucks to the golf repair shop to swap in my Modus shafts for now. Potentially need to schedule an iron fitting too, it could also be the lies have gotten screwed with since these are used and are not fit right to me.

[Stuart_G]

What flex for PX? 6.0 might be more like the DG s300, 5.5's would be closer to the Nippon 105's in stiff.

 

If you get a chance you might try and demo a DG r300 and see how that feels.

[Lord Helmet]

What flex for PX? 6.0 might be more like the DG s300, 5.5's would be closer to the Nippon 105's in stiff.

 

If you get a chance you might try and demo a DG r300 and see how that feels.

 

Wouldnt PX 5.5 be more like the S300 in terms of Howards chart? PX 5.5=6.0 and S300=5.8. PX 6.0=6.5. Im going off memory here....

[Z1ggy16]

PX 6.0s. The weight wasn't too bad but I distinctly remember them feeling very stiff and my numbers were pretty bad with them.

 

I'll have to call some of the local fitters to see how to go about being fit. Doubt they have a lefty MP54 sitting around. Another shaft I really liked were the KBS Tour V (I think 105) and the C Taper Lite's in around the same weight. They both felt pretty good as far as weight and loading, I got slightly better numbers with the Lite's due to a bit higher launch and carry.

[Cwebb]

A heavier weight shaft can create a downswing path that is more "in to out",....so it could promote the 'blocks' or shots to the right you described.

 

If looking at the overall bend profile numbers, a PX 6.0 is an 'X' flex. That means a 5.0 would play closer to an 'S'.

[Golfrnut]

PX is a unique shaft with a lot of butt stiffness in comparison to most in the same flex rating. Unless you are a quick loader from the top, it's not surprising at all that they felt stiff for you. The Tour V is somewhat built the same way, but not as stiff in the butt. They are also a lighter weight which could have helped some with the feel.

 

Nothing wrong with saying that a shaft is too heavy and just really doesn't fit. I learned a few years ago that no matter how much I wanted to like standard DG shafts, the weight was too high and they just really don't suit me. By the sounds of it, somewhere in the 100-110 gram range may be your target, possibly lighter if you haven't gone a little lower to this point. There are plenty of shaft options in that range though.

[Golfrnut]

What flex for PX? 6.0 might be more like the DG s300, 5.5's would be closer to the Nippon 105's in stiff.

 

If you get a chance you might try and demo a DG r300 and see how that feels.

 

Wouldnt PX 5.5 be more like the S300 in terms of Howards chart? PX 5.5=6.0 and S300=5.8. PX 6.0=6.5. Im going off memory here....

 

Big drawback to that is that PX and DG are nowhere near one another in terms of the profile. The butt stiffness number may be the same, but they are complete opposites in how they create that number.

[Lord Helmet]

What flex for PX? 6.0 might be more like the DG s300, 5.5's would be closer to the Nippon 105's in stiff.

 

If you get a chance you might try and demo a DG r300 and see how that feels.

 

Wouldnt PX 5.5 be more like the S300 in terms of Howards chart? PX 5.5=6.0 and S300=5.8. PX 6.0=6.5. Im going off memory here....

 

Big drawback to that is that PX and DG are nowhere near one another in terms of the profile. The butt stiffness number may be the same, but they are complete opposites in how they create that number.

 

Gotcha. So much knowledge here, I love it. I play 5.5 PX and love them. I do not find them harsh at all. I do miss the Dynamic Gold impact 'thump' but I get the best performance from PX.

[Stuart_G]

What flex for PX? 6.0 might be more like the DG s300, 5.5's would be closer to the Nippon 105's in stiff.

 

If you get a chance you might try and demo a DG r300 and see how that feels.

 

Wouldnt PX 5.5 be more like the S300 in terms of Howards chart? PX 5.5=6.0 and S300=5.8. PX 6.0=6.5. Im going off memory here....

 

Big drawback to that is that PX and DG are nowhere near one another in terms of the profile. The butt stiffness number may be the same, but they are complete opposites in how they create that number.

 

And is exactly why Howard often regrets posting those charts to begin with (and more so the fact that the thread was made sticky). Also, keep in mind, according to Tom Wishon's data that I've seen, there is a relatively significant difference between the parallel and taper tip versions for both the DG's and the PX shafts. I believe the parallel's are generally stiffer than the taper for the PX, but it's the opposite for the DG's (parallel softer). So it can make a big difference which DG you are comparing to which PX. Since the OP is using Mizuno's, I was using the taper tip version data.

 

 

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Went from Mizuno Hot Metal with Modus 105 stiff to MP 54's with s300s. Weight difference I think is too much here as now many of my shots are going pretty low and very blocky or slice. I have to move the ball up in my stance by quite a bit in order for the club to release. With my Hot Metals I often hit draws or sometimes more of a hook and now with these heavier shafts it's the total opposite. They are pretty much not playable at this point and I feel like my distances have down more than expected.

 

Is it safe to assume that for now I should just stick my old Modus 105 shafts in the MP 54's then maybe go get another fitting to see if I now fall somewhere in between?

Zig, your struggles are from going Super Game Improvement head to a player's Cavity Back head. I have no idea how nobody has immediately mentioned this to you. initially focusing on 'shafts' as the culprit is folly. if you even put Modus 105 in the MP54 you would still hit them drastically different than the Mizuno Hot Metal.

[Golfrnut]

Went from Mizuno Hot Metal with Modus 105 stiff to MP 54's with s300s. Weight difference I think is too much here as now many of my shots are going pretty low and very blocky or slice. I have to move the ball up in my stance by quite a bit in order for the club to release. With my Hot Metals I often hit draws or sometimes more of a hook and now with these heavier shafts it's the total opposite. They are pretty much not playable at this point and I feel like my distances have down more than expected.

 

Is it safe to assume that for now I should just stick my old Modus 105 shafts in the MP 54's then maybe go get another fitting to see if I now fall somewhere in between?

Zig, your struggles are from going Super Game Improvement head to a player's Cavity Back head. I have no idea how nobody has immediately mentioned this to you. initially focusing on 'shafts' as the culprit is folly. if you even put Modus 105 in the MP54 you would still hit them drastically different than the Mizuno Hot Metal.

 

 

Can't say I agree with this at all. Heavy is heavy, don't care what head is on the end of it. I have had the same i95s in literally 6 different types of heads, from Speedblades to the two sets of Cally MBs and Wishon 575MMCs that I own right now. Same goes for the BB in my fairway and the DI in my driver head. There is no need to reinvent the wheel every time an iron head type is changed.

[Z1ggy16]

Went from Mizuno Hot Metal with Modus 105 stiff to MP 54's with s300s. Weight difference I think is too much here as now many of my shots are going pretty low and very blocky or slice. I have to move the ball up in my stance by quite a bit in order for the club to release. With my Hot Metals I often hit draws or sometimes more of a hook and now with these heavier shafts it's the total opposite. They are pretty much not playable at this point and I feel like my distances have down more than expected.

 

Is it safe to assume that for now I should just stick my old Modus 105 shafts in the MP 54's then maybe go get another fitting to see if I now fall somewhere in between?

Zig, your struggles are from going Super Game Improvement head to a player's Cavity Back head. I have no idea how nobody has immediately mentioned this to you. initially focusing on 'shafts' as the culprit is folly. if you even put Modus 105 in the MP54 you would still hit them drastically different than the Mizuno Hot Metal.

Other than head weight and swing weight... Why does it matter that I went from GI irons to "player" irons? The mp 54's feel great, look great, and I wasn't struggling with my irons before this. Most of my HC came from horrible putting and short game. This whole notion of nobody should play blades until they are single digits is such an antiquated notion. That's like telling me I should be hitting a Cobra XL driver head instead of the new SZ because the SZ is for "better players" even though I get great numbers with it. What evidence is there to suggest I would still not hit the 54's well if I put my old shafts in, other than your opinion or anecdotes?

 

Sorry just saying.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Went from Mizuno Hot Metal with Modus 105 stiff to MP 54's with s300s. Weight difference I think is too much here as now many of my shots are going pretty low and very blocky or slice. I have to move the ball up in my stance by quite a bit in order for the club to release. With my Hot Metals I often hit draws or sometimes more of a hook and now with these heavier shafts it's the total opposite. They are pretty much not playable at this point and I feel like my distances have down more than expected.

 

Is it safe to assume that for now I should just stick my old Modus 105 shafts in the MP 54's then maybe go get another fitting to see if I now fall somewhere in between?

Zig, your struggles are from going Super Game Improvement head to a player's Cavity Back head. I have no idea how nobody has immediately mentioned this to you. initially focusing on 'shafts' as the culprit is folly. if you even put Modus 105 in the MP54 you would still hit them drastically different than the Mizuno Hot Metal.

Other than head weight and swing weight... Why does it matter that I went from GI irons to "player" irons? The mp 54's feel great, look great, and I wasn't struggling with my irons before this. Most of my HC came from horrible putting and short game. This whole notion of nobody should play blades until they are single digits is such an antiquated notion. That's like telling me I should be hitting a Cobra XL driver head instead of the new SZ because the SZ is for "better players" even though I get great numbers with it. What evidence is there to suggest I would still not hit the 54's well if I put my old shafts in, other than your opinion or anecdotes?

 

Sorry just saying.

improving on a "total opposite" result as you spoke about earlier might be further away than just a shaft switch.

 

if you're hitting the MP54 a little bit scruffy right out of the gate, ok sure ditch the DG S300. but if they are a total disaster even now? that's probably not a good sign.

[daveltb]

Some finely tuned instruments on this site. I agree it's the GI to Players heads being the culprit. One steel shaft to another and you can't get the ball airborne. Do you need help lifting your bag out of your trunk? :swoon:

[Exactice808]

Hey Ziggy, Generically speaking, this is partially why I shifted to my current iron shafts, for me I noticed by the 16th hole I was running out of gas and had to really start to muscle my irons to hold my distance, The distance would slowly diminish and that also meant my quality of strike diminished as well.

 

for me going lighter worked with my swing, but and this is a HUGE BUT, this does not work for everyone due to swing tempo, generally speaking static weight affects tempo, so it could affect other areas of the swing.

 

So trial an error is really the only true option you have,

 

X100 to 1150 GH, 130 grams to 115 grams, pretty significant, in feel, weight, flex, launch etc.

[Z1ggy16]

improving on a "total opposite" result as you spoke about earlier might be further away than just a shaft switch.

 

if you're hitting the MP54 a little bit scruffy right out of the gate, ok sure ditch the DG S300. but if they are a total disaster even now? that's probably not a good sign. :nea:

 

Right... But the shaft weight is basically 20% higher, that's a huge amount of change especially since I was fitted into the modus 105 shaft in a mizuno fitting. I went from high draws or a bad hook for a miss, to blocks that are very low and punchy or just a big ol slice. All else equal, that could potentially be a massive change in swing weight.

 

Obviously I've hit these in store before and hit them well enough to buy them, I didn't buy blind. I've never hit duffs before like this with my old irons... and whether GI or not, they'd still be duffs because the face is so open.

 

Only thing I can think of is see if a local fitter has heads similar to the mp54 in stock to hit with this shaft, or something very close, and see the results.

[Exactice808]

Right... But the shaft weight is basically 20% higher, that's a huge amount of change especially since I was fitted into the modus 105 shaft in a mizuno fitting. I went from high draws or a bad hook for a miss, to blocks that are very low and punchy or just a big ol slice. All else equal, that could potentially be a massive change in swing weight.

 

To add one point, the heavier weight may have grooved a bad swing habit, do you by any chance have 2 videos of your swing to watch and compare? Pre S300 and post S300, I wonder if you could see a significant difference in the effects the static weight affected your swing over time. It may not be that its too heavy, it just affected your swing in a negative way.

 

You stated you got fitted with the Modus, so possible the weight of the modus matched your tempo MUCH better than a heavier shaft, It doesnt mean the shaft is "too heavy" per say, its just the weight doesnt match your swing profile. You can either learn to swing the heavier weight properly or go back to a lighter weight that fits your profile better.

[Z1ggy16]

Right... But the shaft weight is basically 20% higher, that's a huge amount of change especially since I was fitted into the modus 105 shaft in a mizuno fitting. I went from high draws or a bad hook for a miss, to blocks that are very low and punchy or just a big ol slice. All else equal, that could potentially be a massive change in swing weight.

 

To add one point, the heavier weight may have grooved a bad swing habit, do you by any chance have 2 videos of your swing to watch and compare? Pre S300 and post S300, I wonder if you could see a significant difference in the effects the static weight affected your swing over time. It may not be that its too heavy, it just affected your swing in a negative way.

 

You stated you got fitted with the Modus, so possible the weight of the modus matched your tempo MUCH better than a heavier shaft, It doesnt mean the shaft is "too heavy" per say, its just the weight doesnt match your swing profile. You can either learn to swing the heavier weight properly or go back to a lighter weight that fits your profile better.

I don't at the current moment...but I could go to the range this week and take some swing vid. Thurs is supposed to be pretty nice, so I can grab some then. Down the line or face on?

[Lord Helmet]

^^^ both

[Exactice808]

^^^ both

 

Yups likely both will help isolate if it is a swing issue, Likely the gurus above would be able to spot something right off the bat, With that take both clubs the modus and the S300 and see what happens. You migh be surprised at how different the 2 shaft will play with your swing.

 

 

I will say this when I went to my fitting, My numbers were identical, for both shafts (X100 and 1150GH stiff) Except for Launch/peak height. Meaning, that my swing profile was able to swing any weight without much negative effective. (distance, spin, dispersion all close)

 

 

The problem again for me specifically is as a generic example,

 

With the X100 I could take 80 swings in a round consistently, once I hit 81 and up, the swing would deteriorate. (including practice swings)

 

With the 1150 GH, I could take 115 swing in a round consistently, usually I would not exceed 90 total swing with an iron (including practice swings) so my swing through a full round would not deteriorate.

 

Thats all that was for me, the heavier shaft took its toll on my body, and I was aching and hurting more and more, as the more rounds I played.....

[Z1ggy16]

Mk, can do. Might be at a weird angle though I don't have a tripod so I'll have to rest my phone on my bag. I'll try to provide comment on the flight of the ball too since it's impossible to tell even down the line.

[cardoustie]

Just change one shaft .. put the 105 in your new 7 iron as a test

[ShowMe]

20 grams is the weight of 4.4 sheets of paper. In other words, hardly anything. Can 4.4 sheets of paper make a noticeable difference in somebody's swing or how that swing feels?

 

It would seem that shaft stiffness would have a bigger impact on how a swing felt then 4 sheets of paper?

[Z1ggy16]

20 grams is the weight of 4.4 sheets of paper. In other words, hardly anything. Can 4.4 sheets of paper make a noticeable difference in somebody's swing or how that swing feels?

 

It would seem that shaft stiffness would have a bigger impact on how a swing felt then 4 sheets of paper?

Feel is not a science. Sometimes extra stiffness in the tip can make a shaft "feel" different, maybe even the allusion that it's heavier. If all shafts and weights were equal... why would companies make more than just 2 or 3 shafts? Sometimes a shaft is only just a bit heavier, but because the butt OD is just a little bigger, the shaft could feel more CB'ed or something. Anyway, my next post will clearly illustrate, something is going on. If you'd like to be helpful, maybe take a look and post your thoughts.

[Z1ggy16]

Ok everybody, since you're all so helpful I went to my local range and paid a few bucks to hit on the sim for an hour. Started things off with my old 7i and the new 7i. I did take video but I don't have time to upload tonight.... I could also only get video of DTL, no FO. Quite a big difference in dispersion mostly, but also ballspeed. That's to be expected I suppose due to the hot metal being about 2.5* lower in loft, but the smash was much higher. Overall, I'm not too concerned about the distance, more of the fact I pretty much hit 4 shots with the Hot Metal that felt really good and all went about the same distance. I hit 8 with the MP54 because it just wasn't feeling "right". I'll post the videos tomorrow.

 

HOT METAL:

 

MP54