Signs your iron shafts are too heavy?

[Golfrnut]

20 grams is the weight of 4.4 sheets of paper. In other words, hardly anything. Can 4.4 sheets of paper make a noticeable difference in somebody's swing or how that swing feels?

 

It would seem that shaft stiffness would have a bigger impact on how a swing felt then 4 sheets of paper?

 

20 grams actually a huge change. Your way off base and not even in the same ballpark in comparisons.

 

Swing a 60 gram driver shaft vs an 80 and see if you can tell a difference.

[Cmoregolf]

20 grams is the weight of 4.4 sheets of paper. In other words, hardly anything. Can 4.4 sheets of paper make a noticeable difference in somebody's swing or how that swing feels?

 

It would seem that shaft stiffness would have a bigger impact on how a swing felt then 4 sheets of paper?

 

20 grams in golf is huge. 2 grams is a swing weight. A cord grip lower the club an entire SW. A couple layers of tape in the grip changes the SW. 20g in a shaft is like night and day. A little confused you would say that considering your handicap.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Ok everybody, since you're all so helpful I went to my local range and paid a few bucks to hit on the sim for an hour. Started things off with my old 7i and the new 7i. I did take video but I don't have time to upload tonight.... I could also only get video of DTL, no FO. Quite a big difference in dispersion mostly, but also ballspeed. That's to be expected I suppose due to the hot metal being about 2.5* lower in loft, but the smash was much higher. Overall, I'm not too concerned about the distance, more of the fact I pretty much hit 4 shots with the Hot Metal that felt really good and all went about the same distance. I hit 8 with the MP54 because it just wasn't feeling "right". I'll post the videos tomorrow.

 

HOT METAL:

 

MP54

Kevin, we still don't know the specs on the MP54 heads either, your ball mark pattern could be heavy on the toe because they're 3* too flat for you or something. anyway, a 7 mph difference in ball speed is significant (fwiw an About Golf sim measures no real club speed). look, you're doing this practice at a PGA Tour Superstore. take a Mizuno fitting cart JPX 900 Hot Metal head install Modus 105 Stiff, hit it. take off the Hot Metal head then put on a myriad of the forged heads (JPX 900 Forged, JPX 900 Tour, MP15, even MP5). if there isn't a drop off with those in ball speed/quality of strike you've confirmed a shaft change to Modus 105 in your MP54 is looking appropriate. if things deteriorate each forged head you try......

[Z1ggy16]

Kenny, this is true. I should probably go get the lofts and lie measured and adjusted accordingly. I know the lie on the Hot metal works for me pretty well, so I'd have them adjusted to match those as a pretty solid reference. Also believe it or not, I wasn't at a PGATSS. I was seriously at my local range... They have 2 About Golf sims there that I use quite often. Hence, there are no heads/shafts for me to change in and out. There is a "local" PGSTSS about 50 minutes from me, but I know for a fact they don't have MP54's. They do have MP25's though which would be somewhat close. Also, the last time I went there, they didn't have Modus 105 shafts. Maybe this has changed, so I can call and ask.

 

There is a Golf Galaxy about 30 mins away that has a Mizzy cart, too. They might have that shaft in, or the 1050GH which is extremely similar. I actually have placed impact tape on the MP54 7i and strikes were a bit more toe thank on the Hot Metal. Not sure cause.. But I'd say based on the data from last night, my strikes were all over the place. I can't say 100% that it's exclusively me... B/c well... I hit the Hot Metal pretty well. I just love the looks and that absolute butter feel of the 54's. I'd like to try and make them work if possible. I'm sure there's a chance putting in lighter shafts won't help but trying is worth it I think.

 

Swing video being uploaded to youtube today , stay tuned.

[Z1ggy16]

http://youtu.be/xCLegcZeCZI

[Z1ggy16]

http://youtu.be/SDa1F4Dtnvw]

 

Took two swings because that first shot I hit a little bit fat.

[Albatross85]

1. play from the correct side of the ball :-)

2. the lofts of those two clubs are 3* different so of course the yardages will be drastically different. Thats an entire club.

3. I would bet money the lie angles are jacked on the mp54 if you cant even find the center of the face. Get the lie checked

[Z1ggy16]

1. play from the correct side of the ball :-)

2. the lofts of those two clubs are 3* different so of course the yardages will be drastically different. Thats an entire club.

3. I would bet money the lie angles are jacked on the mp54 if you cant even find the center of the face. Get the lie checked

1. Can't help it ! D:

2. I think it's 30.5 vs 33.. but yeah I think it's a little too much of a difference. I'd expect 10-12 yards.. But average carry was 18 yards more with the HM's.

3. Yeah actually since the majority of the time it's left of target, I'd assume they are actually flatter than what I need.

 

I also noticed that from a DTL view, I'm setting up a touch closed to target. From my POV I looked fairly square, so this could be another reason why with a slightly heavier shaft, I'm tending to block or leave the face a bit open.

 

I'll try to get some Face On swing with the 54's soon. This weekend looks to be decent weather, I'll see what I can do.

[Stuart_G]

It's certainly good to check the lie angles, but the lie angles being off doesn't account for the significant differences in dispersion or consistency. With that big a difference, that's much more likely to be shaft weight (or swing weight), or even stiffness.

 

Although next time, use some impact tape or foot powder spray to judge the relative quality and consistency of the face impact location between the two heads. For example, if impact quality is similar but the results are quite different - then the head certainly could be playing a part in what you are seeing. But if the actual quality of impact improves, that's predominantly going to be the shaft (or length or swing weight) being a better fit - not the model or type or design of the head.

[Z1ggy16]

It's certainly good to check the lie angles, but the lie angles being off doesn't account for the significant differences in dispersion or consistency. With that big a difference, that's much more likely to be shaft weight (or swing weight), or even stiffness.

 

Although next time, use some impact tape or foot powder spray to judge the relative quality and consistency of the face impact location between the two heads. For example, if impact quality is similar but the results are quite different - then the head certainly could be playing a part in what you are seeing. But if the actual quality of impact improves, that's predominantly going to be the shaft (or length or swing weight) being a better fit - not the model or type or design of the head.

Well I can tell just from "feel" I don't hit the 54's as consistent. That's one of the reasons I went to a forging... I wanted feedback on shots. With the Hot Metals, I have no clue if my 7i is going 160 or 170. I find out once I get to the ball. With the 54's I know almost instantly if my shot is going to pull up short and if it's going to end up fading any, etc. I wonder if that feedback would get even better with slightly less stiff/heavy shafts.

 

Next time I go to the range, I'll use impact tape, I have a bunch of it.

[Stuart_G]

I would expect the amount of feedback to increase with shaft stiffness (stiffer equals more feedback) - both bending (high-low) and torsional (heel-toe). Not sure, but don't' think the weight would have a big direct impact, heavier could possibly reduce it a little bit but I think stiffness would be the bigger factor. (not counting the shaft material - but so far we're only been discussing steel). Grip could have some effect as well.

[1s1k]

Your 7 iron swing speed is 93mph and your in a stiff shaft.

 

Is there a reason you're not in xstiff?

[Golfrnut]

I would expect the amount of feedback to increase with shaft stiffness (stiffer equals more feedback) - both bending (high-low) and torsional (heel-toe). Not sure, but don't' think the weight would have a big direct impact, heavier could possibly reduce it a little bit but I think stiffness would be the bigger factor. (not counting the shaft material - but so far we're only been discussing steel). Grip could have some effect as well.

 

Nothing factual to back it up...but I will agree here. One of the main reasons I went back to a stiffer lower section shaft profile. I tried 950s and some other common profiled shafts, and although I play "bladeish" forged irons, I lost a lot of feedback from the impact even with those. A shot that felt flush was actually a mishit, etc.

 

I think the process/design is another major factor, although I couldn't tell you the whys. DG feels great to me, but too heavy in the irons...but DG SL which is supposed to be a close profile, I lost feel and feedback. I presume that's due to the wall thickness and hoop design, but that's only speculation.

 

My spectrum is not really that broad on graphite, but I prefer the SFs for a lot of the reasons above. For me personally, I think I can go pretty stiff in the lower section on just about anything and be happy because I like the feel/feedback, I just have to watch the butt-mid. I think I'm the opposite there, I'm fine as long as I don't get too stiff where I start to try to hard to get feel out of it.

 

Maybe I should just start to play shafts upside down... :)

[Z1ggy16]

I would expect the amount of feedback to increase with shaft stiffness (stiffer equals more feedback) - both bending (high-low) and torsional (heel-toe). Not sure, but don't' think the weight would have a big direct impact, heavier could possibly reduce it a little bit but I think stiffness would be the bigger factor. (not counting the shaft material - but so far we're only been discussing steel). Grip could have some effect as well.

Interesting. I guess that makes sense now that I think about it. When I think of balls that give good feed back, they tend to be harder or more

stiff feeling off the face. The mushy balls like Cally Super soft offer almost no feed back to me.

 

Your 7 iron swing speed is 93mph and your in a stiff shaft.

 

Is there a reason you're not in xstiff?

I'd take that with a grain of salt. That particular simulator can't measure actual club head speed, just ball speed.

[Stuart_G]

Maybe I should just start to play shafts upside down... :)

 

It's funny you should mention that. I remember a recent exchange with Tom in a thread where he shared how he had a customer who insisted he install the shafts upside down despite Tom's warnings.

 

last paragraph here:

http://www.golfwrx.c...8#entry14748348

[LeoLeo99]

My two cents guess here is that you're seeing how the forgiveness of the hot metal makes a difference. I don't think it's the shaft. Those shafts aren't that different from each other to cause that much delta in your shots. But I've been wrong before...

 

I've switched from cast SGI heads to forged cavity backs this season for the exact reasons you mentioned. And I'm shocked by the forgiveness I'm getting from them and no worries about hot spots or distance control. Of course this contradicts my first paragraph.

 

Very curious to see what the impact tape shows. I think that's the key to this. Good call by Stuart!

 

Those MP54 are a sweet looking club. Even if they're a club shorter, they should still like you hit them well. Have you tried other clubs than the 7-iron? Could the head be cracked or something?

[Z1ggy16]

My two cents guess here is that you're seeing how the forgiveness of the hot metal makes a difference. I don't think it's the shaft. Those shafts aren't that different from each other to cause that much delta in your shots. But I've been wrong before...

 

I've switched from cast SGI heads to forged cavity backs this season for the exact reasons you mentioned. And I'm shocked by the forgiveness I'm getting from them and no worries about hot spots or distance control. Of course this contradicts my first paragraph.

 

Very curious to see what the impact tape shows. I think that's the key to this. Good call by Stuart!

 

Those MP54 are a sweet looking club. Even if they're a club shorter, they should still like you hit them well. Have you tried other clubs than the 7-iron? Could the head be cracked or something?

Meh, I think the shafts are actually very different tbh. Modus 105 is a (obviously) 105 gram class shaft and is much more tip soft than the 125 gram class s300 which as far as I'm concerned, is right up there with some of the most stout iron shafts in that class (PX probably the only one I've hit that "feel" stiffer).

 

To me the Modus shafts feel smooth and effortless, while the DG line of shafts much like PX, require a deliberate and aggressive swing. I'm not trying to talk myself out of DG's, it's just that I'm more inclined to at least believe the 105g range is where I belong based on the Mizuno fitting I got last year.

[Golfrnut]

Maybe I should just start to play shafts upside down... :)

 

It's funny you should mention that. I remember a recent exchange with Tom in a thread where he shared how he had a customer who insisted he install the shafts upside down despite Tom's warnings.

 

last paragraph here:

http://www.golfwrx.c...8#entry14748348

 

Yah, I remember reading that story as well. My story has a bit more sarcasm involved of course, but interesting that someone would go that route. If they ever stop making SF shafts, I'm hosed. Good thing is, I now have 3 sets and also a set of AMI99s(stumbled upon them/happened to also be shafted in the Cally MB protos so I got a 2fer although they weren't cheap). It'll take me 10 years to wear out three sets of heads.

[Exactice808]

Ziggs, Couple thoughts purely on the data, (BS, so take it with a grain of salt, as above posters have pretty much started to really zero in)

 

 

7Iron

 

 

Hot Metal

-170 carry

93mph Club

116mph ball

41 yards Max height

5559 spin

1.24-PTR/Smash Factor,

 

 

MP54

152 carry

90mph Club

109mph Ball

37 max height

6282rpms

1.21 PTR/Smash

 

 

So right off the bat we see 18 yards drop in total distance, secondly loss of 3mph of club speed, (Generically should be 3.16 yard per MPH of club speed, so 9.48 yard loss right off the bat)

 

With that less spin, by almost 723rpms, that can be almost a club difference. usually about 1000rpms per iron, next is peak height, Not sure but to me 41 yards & 37 Yards is pretty over kill for height, 123 ft vs 111ft, 12ft, window is quite a variance as well. Usually I try to stay around 100ft or 34 yards.

 

OK anyways.... with all this BS.

 

 

1) With the lofts as different as they are, you are still launching the club, within 1 degree, But the MP54 seeming spin much more, while the Hot Metal's are spinning less with more height, This off the bat is the generic keys to more distance, more height and more carry =) more distance. You just seem to be getting optimized shots with the Hot metal.

 

2) With that, it means you are likely getting quality strikes in comparison to the MP54, for what ever reason, something is not allowing you to obtain quality shots with the MP54, be it lie angles, swing weight, static weight.

 

3) As someone mentions is there a chance you can stick a shaft from the hot metal in the MP54, check the swing weight and give it a go.

 

4) 3* of loft, is your 3-times per yards as well, So 9 yards from loft, 9 yards from swing speed = 18 less yards club for club, sounds about right.......

 

5) reading though, Both 7irons length and lie are the same, so that should not be a direct issue, What about Swing weight? D2, D4?

 

 

 

every one pointing out good facts.... again.....Im going to chalk it up right off the bat is purely the shaft, is getting you out of sync first, Your swing quickly watching seemed the same a not much different, so its just the minute tweaks at impact, and 20grams is HUGE for that......

 

GL Ziggy, hope you zero in my friend!

[Z1ggy16]

Exactice808 - I can def. put the Modus 105 in the MP54 7i. I mean, I have 2 full sets of each but I'm not going to spend $90 to reshaft the entire set only to still find I can't hit the 54's as well still. With the lengths being exactly the same, losing 3mph in club speed (although a calculated estimate) doesn't seem too significant. Smash isn't terribly different either overall, just .03 lower which might as well be calculation error. Overall, this data is telling me exactly what's to be expected: The mp54 is slightly heavier and slightly higher lofted. Ball speed, swing speed and total distance went down, along with spin going up, all within the expected ranges.

 

As far as I know, the Hot Metals were built D2 and so are the 54's. I worry that since the 54's are probably a D2 with that s300 shaft.. taking nearly 20 grams off static weight might make the SW feel extremely odd, as maybe up to an entire letter of weight could be added/subtracted.

[Exactice808]

Exactice808 - I can def. put the Modus 105 in the MP54 7i. I mean, I have 2 full sets of each but I'm not going to spend $90 to reshaft the entire set only to still find I can't hit the 54's as well still. With the lengths being exactly the same, losing 3mph in club speed (although a calculated estimate) doesn't seem too significant. Smash isn't terribly different either overall, just .03 lower which might as well be calculation error. Overall, this data is telling me exactly what's to be expected: The mp54 is slightly heavier and slightly higher lofted. Ball speed, swing speed and total distance went down, along with spin going up, all within the expected ranges.

 

As far as I know, the Hot Metals were built D2 and so are the 54's. I worry that since the 54's are probably a D2 with that s300 shaft.. taking nearly 20 grams off static weight might make the SW feel extremely odd, as maybe up to an entire letter of weight could be added/subtracted.

 

3mph is HUGE my friend, Let me just say this, say you have a 100mph driver swing speed, just to get that extra 3 to 103mph, takes a lot of work and energy, so again that, 3mph of club speed, translates to almost 6mph of BALL speed. again pretty significant.

 

With that taking into account your flight pattern is significantly different, Peak height, and spin, these are all factor to validate there is a significant difference between each club. Here is a very quick BS thought, to rule out loft, For loft sake, try to hit your Hotmetal 7iron against your MP54 6 iron just to see what happens. I know its not a perfect apples to oranges, comparison, But if loft being equal (I know 1/4 in length as well) but just to see if your launch numbers/total distance numbers are in the ball park. Golfrnut & Stuart G, can validate, Swing weight is not perfect, a D2 measurement on 2 clubs can still feel very different. Blows my mind I know.... but it makes sense, now when you really start messing with total weight.

 

As for reshafting the whole set, YES dont do that LOL, I would not advocate that LOL!

 

Anyways, You surely can fit the MP54 to fit you, Im sure of it, you just gotta get those built to a comfortable spec that can work with your swing, I seriously think its just built out of spec to you and its not syncing well to your swing!

[Z1ggy16]

Right for DRIVER 3mph of club head speed could equate to 6mph of ball speed, but for a 7i where smash is about 1.25 or so, it's really not much difference. My HC is at a level where my swing is not 100% the same every time. One hole my 7i is swung around 85, next hole 82, next time 88. I'm not putting a ton of stock in that particular aspect.

 

I can definitely go ahead and swing the 6i in the 54's and see what those numbers are like. I might not get that data though until next week... I try to space out my indoor sessions because they charge $45 per hour to use the monitor D:

 

Based on distances I've seen though during other practice, the 6i is right around 165-170 yards.

[Exactice808]

Right for DRIVER 3mph of club head speed could equate to 6mph of ball speed, but for a 7i where smash is about 1.25 or so, it's really not much difference. My HC is at a level where my swing is not 100% the same every time. One hole my 7i is swung around 85, next hole 82, next time 88. I'm not putting a ton of stock in that particular aspect.

 

I can definitely go ahead and swing the 6i in the 54's and see what those numbers are like. I might not get that data though until next week... I try to space out my indoor sessions because they charge $45 per hour to use the monitor D:

 

Based on distances I've seen though during other practice, the 6i is right around 165-170 yards.

 

Gotcha, I would say the same for myself, hhaahahah I carry my SC100 voice caddie everywhere, I am trying to develop a very consistent swing/ball speed. and yes, mine seems all over the creation.

 

With that, You are saying that the 6iron is pretty close to matching the 7iron Hot metal right? What about "Strike" consistency, do you feel you strike it or it feels about the same?

 

because if we "Take" distance out as a variable, the loft for loft issue seems to match up, maybe we just gotta chalk it up as well as its just 1 club stronger club for club, Kind like the old "jacked" TM loft debates LOL!

[Golfrnut]

We never see 2.0 smash factor, so we aren't gonna see a ball speed double the CHS. ;)

[Z1ggy16]

Right for DRIVER 3mph of club head speed could equate to 6mph of ball speed, but for a 7i where smash is about 1.25 or so, it's really not much difference. My HC is at a level where my swing is not 100% the same every time. One hole my 7i is swung around 85, next hole 82, next time 88. I'm not putting a ton of stock in that particular aspect.

 

I can definitely go ahead and swing the 6i in the 54's and see what those numbers are like. I might not get that data though until next week... I try to space out my indoor sessions because they charge $45 per hour to use the monitor D:

 

Based on distances I've seen though during other practice, the 6i is right around 165-170 yards.

 

Gotcha, I would say the same for myself, hhaahahah I carry my SC100 voice caddie everywhere, I am trying to develop a very consistent swing/ball speed. and yes, mine seems all over the creation.

 

With that, You are saying that the 6iron is pretty close to matching the 7iron Hot metal right? What about "Strike" consistency, do you feel you strike it or it feels about the same?

 

because if we "Take" distance out as a variable, the loft for loft issue seems to match up, maybe we just gotta chalk it up as well as its just 1 club stronger club for club, Kind like the old "jacked" TM loft debates LOL!

I haven't hit the 6i enough to really say how the strike is, but it's about the same as the 7i. Some closer to the toe.. some middle. some heely. Still the same block/push type of shot though.

 

The main difference I see on the whole is that I find the 4i extremely hard to swing well, it doesn't go much further than the 5i, which only goes a little bit further than the 6i right now. It could just be more mental, seeing 24* of loft in a blade is certainly different than the 24* of the Hot Metal (thicker top line, few mm more blade length). I was hitting the 5i in the Hot Metal about 195 or so, so I'd expect the 54's 4i to go that far... but that 4i for me is going like 175-180. I just can't strike it well. It can't be the length or the loft because it's the same as the Hot Metal 5i, and I hit that just fine.

 

I really think it's a combo of mental, plus the minor heavier overall static feel. The "feel" of SW doesn't seem terribly different to me. To be honest, I don't feel massive changes in any SW feel in any iron I've ever hit. I mainly only ever feel stiffness, weight and sound. However, with woods I can 100% feel SW differences. I attribute that to the longer and more flexible shafts.

[Z1ggy16]

We never see 2.0 smash factor, so we aren't gonna see a ball speed double the CHS. ;)

Yeah.. most we'd ever see for 3mph is obviously 4.5mph ball speed...I didn't make a big deal, it was just an example. Plus like I said.. for a 7i, 3mph swing speed will make very little difference in my carry. Strike is going to be 10x more import.

[Exactice808]

We never see 2.0 smash factor, so we aren't gonna see a ball speed double the CHS. ;)

Yeah.. most we'd ever see for 3mph is obviously 4.5mph ball speed...I didn't make a big deal, it was just an example. Plus like I said.. for a 7i, 3mph swing speed will make very little difference in my carry. Strike is going to be 10x more import.

 

AAWWWWWW.... Ziggy... dont do this too me Im going to get into trouble =)

 

 

PGA Tour Quality strike for a 7iron - 1.33 Smash,

 

90 x 1.33 = 119.7mph ball

 

93 x 1.33 = 123.6mph ball

 

the difference between these 2 distances is 1 club difference, your 6iron vs your 7iron.

 

You are right, your quality of strike for a 7iron is seemingly low, so improving this will net you a much higher ball speed... and much more consistent higher ball speed. BUT the difference between either the lack of ball speed or the lack of swing speed translates to exactly 1 club loss......

 

 

As for the 4 iron....... I dont really know that many people that hit 4 irons that well either so you are not alone, I pulled my 3 iron for a 5 wood... I have accepted that, and my 4 iron now is for the missed shots in the trees that I need to skull out under the branches back in the fairway...... reality, HAAHA

 

But seriously, quality of strike/consistency needs to be taken into account... it sounds like you stated, you are lacking a consistent strike....

[Z1ggy16]

I think once I put a modus 105 into my MP54 7i, a lot of questions will be answered. If I'm still striking poorly with my preferred shaft in the MP54 head, it's almost certain that my swing is entirely the culprit. If that was the case I'd probably be forced to shelf the 54's until my striking got better. Not sure I could have struck those Hot Metals much better though last night... Hence, why I felt like I Was ready to move onto player irons lol. Catch 22!

[dunn]

What flex for PX? 6.0 might be more like the DG s300, 5.5's would be closer to the Nippon 105's in stiff.

 

If you get a chance you might try and demo a DG r300 and see how that feels.

 

Wouldnt PX 5.5 be more like the S300 in terms of Howards chart? PX 5.5=6.0 and S300=5.8. PX 6.0=6.5. Im going off memory here....

agreed.....px play stout, I think px 5.0 is actually comparable to dgs300 though much lighter and different profile the flex feels close

[dunn]

In my experience hitting it fat usually means it's too heavy....dumping club because the weight is too heavy and dumping it early....this is true for me when testing a lot of different shafts weights.....I usually can adjust as I like the heavier weight in more aspects of swing than I dont....pros outweigh cons type of thing so I just deal with it....