Signs your iron shafts are too heavy?

[Nard_S]

Dynamic Gold S300 is not an easy shaft to use and it's just not the static weight.

 

It has a high kick point, in simplistic terms it rewards an impact position where hands are well ahead of ball and punishing on a pass with less than advanced hands

 

I always had a hard time getting the most out of them, launched too high, distance meh. When I addressed the release thing, I got lower launch, greater (truer) distance and accuracy.

 

You're swing speed is "S" if not "S+" but if profile (kick point) does not fit what you're swing is doing, end results will suffer cause of the miss match

 

Partially why I always liked Brunswicks more :)

[Z1ggy16]

I'm sure I'm not creating enough lag for these shafts. It's certainly something I am working on.

[Nard_S]

I'm sure I'm not creating enough lag for these shafts. It's certainly something I am working on.

 

I hear you, have at it my friend. If you start getting better with it, the DG prove to be wonderful. Took me months for the right alchemy of changes to realize better lag and get the most out of the DG shafts Other irons I use have softer tips or are mid kick and are more forgiving of less than great ;lag. I have a reasonable profile spectrum to choose from, and am glad for it.

[ShowMe]

20 grams is the weight of 4.4 sheets of paper. In other words, hardly anything. Can 4.4 sheets of paper make a noticeable difference in somebody's swing or how that swing feels?

 

It would seem that shaft stiffness would have a bigger impact on how a swing felt then 4 sheets of paper?

 

20 grams actually a huge change. Your way off base and not even in the same ballpark in comparisons.

 

Swing a 60 gram driver shaft vs an 80 and see if you can tell a difference.

 

A standard-sized sheet of paper weighs 4.5 grams. Given that (which is true), 4.4 sheets of paper weighs 20 grams. I'm swinging 4.5 sheets of paper right now and I cannot feel any weight difference compared to just swinging my arms while holding on to nothing.

 

Now maybe there's some physics or physiology to prove that adding 4.4 sheets of paper to a shaft's weight is enough for the average person to feel the difference, but I suspect it has more to do with the heavier shaft feeling stiffer because of the way the extra weight is distributed in the shaft (e.g., all at the bottom to get a stiffer tip), than the extra weight itself, and that we as humans interpret that extra stiffness as meaning heavier (if that makes sense).

 

I'll bet if you wrapped 4.4 sheets of paper uniformly across the whole of a shaft and blindfolded somebody, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference weight-wise between that shaft and the same shaft without the paper wrapped around it.

 

Now maybe there's some sort of tipping point where if a club is of a certain minimum weight to start with, adding 20 grams to that weight does allow the average person to perceive the difference? I don't know. It would be interesting to see the science behind that.

 

So I posit that it's not the extra weight itself that causes a difference in feel, but rather it's how and where that extra weight is distributed. If it's distributed evenly across the whole of the shaft, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if blindfolded. Not at 20 grams, anyway. Maybe not even at 40 grams (9 sheets of paper).

 

Am I incorrect? If so, is there some hard science to show that, or is it just an opinion based on empirical evidence?

 

I bring this up because of an experience I had this past weekend. I was at PGATSS hitting the Mizuno Hot Metal irons (great club, btw) with different shafts (they had a few 7 irons with different glued-in shafts). The one that felt the lightest to me when I was swinging was the 120g. C-Taper stiff, even though it was one of the heaviest shafts. In fact, it felt lighter than the graphite 90g. Project X LZ Tour 6.0 shaft.

 

I got to thinking that was strange given the 30g. difference in shaft weight. From everything I've ever read on this site and others, most people can easily tell the difference in a 20g. difference in weight, never mind 30g. That experience led to my theory detailed above.

 

Not trying to come across as a troll, just genuinely interested in the science (if there is any) behind this. If there isn't any, then maybe I have an idea to develop and take to Shark Tank. :)

[Z1ggy16]

^ just to add... You have to account for any counter balancing in the club, and the club's balance point in general.

 

I have an 80 gram shaft in my 3 wood that weighs as much (b/c it's cut down) as my driver shaft. Because I think it's a little bit CB'ed, it feels like a nice little twig...but because it's actually a bit more stout and heavy, keeps my launch low and side spin down. In fact I "feel" like my 65g shaft in my old fly Z is heavier than both my 70g Rogue Siler and my 80g Matrix RUL.

 

TLDR, "feel" makes no sense, and rules above all else.

[LeoLeo99]

20 grams is the weight of 4.4 sheets of paper. In other words, hardly anything. Can 4.4 sheets of paper make a noticeable difference in somebody's swing or how that swing feels?

 

It would seem that shaft stiffness would have a bigger impact on how a swing felt then 4 sheets of paper?

 

20 grams actually a huge change. Your way off base and not even in the same ballpark in comparisons.

 

Swing a 60 gram driver shaft vs an 80 and see if you can tell a difference.

 

A standard-sized sheet of paper weighs 4.5 grams. Given that (which is true), 4.4 sheets of paper weighs 20 grams. I'm swinging 4.5 sheets of paper right now and I cannot feel any weight difference compared to just swinging my arms while holding on to nothing.

 

Now maybe there's some physics or physiology to prove that adding 4.4 sheets of paper to a shaft's weight is enough for the average person to feel the difference, but I suspect it has more to do with the heavier shaft feeling stiffer because of the way the extra weight is distributed in the shaft (e.g., all at the bottom to get a stiffer tip), than the extra weight itself, and that we as humans interpret that extra stiffness as meaning heavier (if that makes sense).

 

I'll bet if you wrapped 4.4 sheets of paper uniformly across the whole of a shaft and blindfolded somebody, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference weight-wise between that shaft and the same shaft without the paper wrapped around it.

 

Now maybe there's some sort of tipping point where if a club is of a certain minimum weight to start with, adding 20 grams to that weight does allow the average person to perceive the difference? I don't know. It would be interesting to see the science behind that.

 

So I posit that it's not the extra weight itself that causes a difference in feel, but rather it's how and where that extra weight is distributed. If it's distributed evenly across the whole of the shaft, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if blindfolded. Not at 20 grams, anyway. Maybe not even at 40 grams (9 sheets of paper).

 

Am I incorrect? If so, is there some hard science to show that, or is it just an opinion based on empirical evidence?

 

I bring this up because of an experience I had this past weekend. I was at PGATSS hitting the Mizuno Hot Metal irons (great club, btw) with different shafts (they had a few 7 irons with different glued-in shafts). The one that felt the lightest to me when I was swinging was the 120g. C-Taper stiff, even though it was one of the heaviest shafts. In fact, it felt lighter than the graphite 90g. Project X LZ Tour 6.0 shaft.

 

I got to thinking that was strange given the 30g. difference in shaft weight. From everything I've ever read on this site and others, most people can easily tell the difference in a 20g. difference in weight, never mind 30g. That experience led to my theory detailed above.

 

Not trying to come across as a troll, just genuinely interested in the science (if there is any) behind this. If there isn't any, then maybe I have an idea to develop and take to Shark Tank. :)

 

I have a couple sets of irons with KBS Tour S (125g) and one set with a lightweight DG shaft at 103g. Can definitely feel the difference in weight. When I took a psychology course in college, they taught us about something called the JND (just noticeable difference). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-noticeable_difference

 

A delta of 20g is above the JND for a 100g golf shaft.

[Exactice808]

A standard-sized sheet of paper weighs 4.5 grams. Given that (which is true), 4.4 sheets of paper weighs 20 grams. I'm swinging 4.5 sheets of paper right now and I cannot feel any weight difference compared to just swinging my arms while holding on to nothing.

 

Now maybe there's some physics or physiology to prove that adding 4.4 sheets of paper to a shaft's weight is enough for the average person to feel the difference, but I suspect it has more to do with the heavier shaft feeling stiffer because of the way the extra weight is distributed in the shaft (e.g., all at the bottom to get a stiffer tip), than the extra weight itself, and that we as humans interpret that extra stiffness as meaning heavier (if that makes sense).

 

I'll bet if you wrapped 4.4 sheets of paper uniformly across the whole of a shaft and blindfolded somebody, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference weight-wise between that shaft and the same shaft without the paper wrapped around it.

 

Now maybe there's some sort of tipping point where if a club is of a certain minimum weight to start with, adding 20 grams to that weight does allow the average person to perceive the difference? I don't know. It would be interesting to see the science behind that.

 

So I posit that it's not the extra weight itself that causes a difference in feel, but rather it's how and where that extra weight is distributed. If it's distributed evenly across the whole of the shaft, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if blindfolded. Not at 20 grams, anyway. Maybe not even at 40 grams (9 sheets of paper).

 

Am I incorrect? If so, is there some hard science to show that, or is it just an opinion based on empirical evidence?

 

I bring this up because of an experience I had this past weekend. I was at PGATSS hitting the Mizuno Hot Metal irons (great club, btw) with different shafts (they had a few 7 irons with different glued-in shafts). The one that felt the lightest to me when I was swinging was the 120g. C-Taper stiff, even though it was one of the heaviest shafts. In fact, it felt lighter than the graphite 90g. Project X LZ Tour 6.0 shaft.

 

I got to thinking that was strange given the 30g. difference in shaft weight. From everything I've ever read on this site and others, most people can easily tell the difference in a 20g. difference in weight, never mind 30g. That experience led to my theory detailed above.

 

Not trying to come across as a troll, just genuinely interested in the science (if there is any) behind this. If there isn't any, then maybe I have an idea to develop and take to Shark Tank. :)

 

Im going to add parts to this, Stuart G and Golfrnut are 100X better at explaining it but will try to start it off.

 

 

1) Why do companies, usually offer clubs in increments of 10grams at a time? 50gram, vs 60gram, vs 70 gram vs 80gram for graphites, and steel 85,95,105,115,120,130 etc etc.

2) Depending on models, Drivers alike there are generally 2 options a light weight 50gram "GI" style driver, and a players style driver that has a 60+/70+ stock shaft.

 

Likely due to the course of fitting and evolution of fitting, precision has been the focal point. Fitters have a lot more options now, to really zero in on a players swing to optimize their strikes. With that, Players are able to maximize their shots with clubs that are well fit to their swing.

 

Think back in the day everyone played steel shafted drivers, those are the thing of the past, and now, DJ uses a Speeder 661 shaft, a 60 gram shaft, in comparison to Tigers days of using X100 (130gram) in his driver.

 

 

Anyways the point of this, is generically speaking, static weight of a club correlates to a players swing tempo, the faster/explosive their tempo is, the heavier, the shaft generically should be to sync up a players tempo.

 

The opposite goes to a slower more deliberate tempo player, that would benefit from a lighter static weight shaft.

 

Again this is "generically speaking" and not a one all fits all statement, there are some unique people.

 

 

with that, I do not have the data, to support the difference with why 10grams makes a difference as I am sure someone does have it, but again going back to the "Tempo" markers, this is the basis of it,

 

Secondly, you are looking at 20 grams as a representation of 4.4 sheets of paper, rather than 20 grams placed strategically on a shaft, With that, take lead tape at 1" strips, about 3-4grams each, for 20 grams, if you placed that on one point of the shaft, you would need about 6-7 pieces, that can change the shaft balance, over all weight, and possible swing weight. Of a club, not just taking 4.4 sheets of paper and laying it nicely/evenly on a graphite shaft.

 

Secondly, As fast as "our/person" swing is (80mph-140mph), any minute change in the swing can affect the impact at the ball, with that heavier of course means slower, and lighter of course means faster, Again swing a 50gram shaft vs a 70gram shaft, while "feeling" the same (swing weight), the quality of impact can and will likely suffer due to the timing/tempo, that the club sets and releases.

 

Lastly, going back to your example, that is a perfect example of Swing weight not static weight, you can make a 90gram graphite shaft "feel heavier" by changing the swing weight (extra light grip and swing weight plug) D9, in comparison to counter balancing an S400 134gram shaft in the same club head (Extremely over-sized grip, with a grip weight) C1, Static weight and swing weight are 2 different facets.

[Howard_Jones]

What flex for PX? 6.0 might be more like the DG s300, 5.5's would be closer to the Nippon 105's in stiff.

 

If you get a chance you might try and demo a DG r300 and see how that feels.

 

Wouldnt PX 5.5 be more like the S300 in terms of Howards chart? PX 5.5=6.0 and S300=5.8. PX 6.0=6.5. Im going off memory here....

 

Big drawback to that is that PX and DG are nowhere near one another in terms of the profile. The butt stiffness number may be the same, but they are complete opposites in how they create that number.

 

And is exactly why Howard often regrets posting those charts to begin with (and more so the fact that the thread was made sticky). Also, keep in mind, according to Tom Wishon's data that I've seen, there is a relatively significant difference between the parallel and taper tip versions for both the DG's and the PX shafts. I believe the parallel's are generally stiffer than the taper for the PX, but it's the opposite for the DG's (parallel softer). So it can make a big difference which DG you are comparing to which PX. Since the OP is using Mizuno's, I was using the taper tip version data.

 

 

 

PX taper and PX Parallel is the same shaft, no difference except the very tip end we put down in the hosel, so they cant be compared to DG Taper and DG Parallel who is 2 different animals where DG taper is Constant weight and Parallel is a #1 iron shaft with a parallel tip section we tip trim, so dont mix them up.

 

The most common mistake about standard PX is going to strong, so if 115 grams is a good fit, both 5.0 and 5.5 should be tried before a decision is made, and dont get fooled by those labels or BUTT CPM alone, they dont tell the hole story, and dont forget the PXI option who is softer to flex vs label compared to regular PX, so in that 115 gram range, we have PXI 6.0 at 112 grams, PX 5.0 and 5.5 at 115 grams and PXI 6.5 at 117 grams.

On top of that PX LZ with the same weight vs flex label as regular PX but more feel of load and release, so if PX 5.5 and 5.0 is good on weight but feel to hard to load, try PX LZ 5.5

[Stuart_G]

PX taper and PX Parallel is the same shaft, no difference except the very tip end we put down in the hosel,

 

I believe you Howard but it makes me curious about why Tom's software would report things differently. Maybe he uses a different procedure for measuring taper and parallel tip iron shafts?

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

PX taper and PX Parallel is the same shaft, no difference except the very tip end we put down in the hosel,

 

I believe you Howard but it makes me curious about why Tom's software would report things differently. Maybe he uses a different procedure for measuring taper and parallel tip iron shafts?

 

 

 

Im not able to answer that, those tapers has come into the DB lately, while the parallels has been there for years.

True Temper say they comes out from the same production, and those they make as tapers has the tip end done as a last part of it.

PX is Discrete length for the same reason, so its not a "base shaft" to be tip trimmed like DG is.

 

I dont have the software on this PC, but take a look into it and see how many of each that was measured and try to find stiffest and softest of them. It could be that Length or iron # is different, but you should be able to see that where the sample of each shaft measured comes from.

[Stuart_G]

I don't actually have the software myself, just maintained a compilation of the data posted by others in the forum - so it's also possible I may have misinterpreted someone else's posting of the data.

[Stuart_G]

So I posit that it's not the extra weight itself that causes a difference in feel, but rather it's how and where that extra weight is distributed. If it's distributed evenly across the whole of the shaft, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if blindfolded. Not at 20 grams, anyway. Maybe not even at 40 grams (9 sheets of paper).

 

Am I incorrect? If so, is there some hard science to show that, or is it just an opinion based on empirical evidence?

 

IMO, while distribution/balance can be important, it's about more than just that and the static weight is still important as well. The problem is that your analogy really isn't accurate. You say you can't feel the difference between swinging 4.5 sheets of paper and having nothing in your hands. Yet I could argue that you can feel the difference of just 1 sheets of paper and probably even less. Simply hold out your hand palm up and place 1 sheet of paper in that hand. Then with your eyes closed, have someone else place a second sheet of paper on top of that first one. I guarantee you that (unless maybe you have some nerve damage) you'll be able to feel that and tell exactly when that second piece of paper was placed on your hand. But both those analogies are actually pointless, it's all about context. And neither of those analogies are anywhere close to being a completely accurate context. The golf swing, actually trying to hit and make contact with a ball, is a very complex sequence of motions. It's done with much higher levels of acceleration - linear, rotational, and centripetal. And it's not a single motion, but a complex sequence where small changes in resistance and feel could result in the sequencing being off in a noticeable way. And it's not just the change in effort that may be required that we might feel, but also changes in resistance the club has to moving we feel in our hands (which are extremely sensitive).

 

So if you want to do any tests, you need to do it with an actual golf swing, actually trying to hit a ball, and also know exactly what was changed. Ideally it would be a blind test - and you'd have to look at not just whether there was a noticeable change in feel but also a measurable change in results. Also keep in mind you want to keep the number of swings down to just 2 or 3, since the idea is to test the impact of the change without testing your ability to adapt your swing to the change over time. But just for the sake of scientific curiosity, here is a simple starting point. Take your 6 and 7 iron, wrap 20 gm of lead tape around one of the shafts some where below the grip near the midpoint of the shaft. Alternate hitting the two, taking only 2-3 swings with each and see what happens. I'm not going to try and tell you what you will or will not feel - it's not a constant by any means - everyone is different in their levels of sensitivity.

 

There is some supporting science that I think you may be missing (and I could list a few things if needed) with respect to forces required to manipulate the club but "feel" is as much about perception as it is about crunching numbers in physics equations so very subjective and not something that is easy to define exactly, especially in a motion that is as varied and complex as a golf swing. I'm sure there are lots of theories that could be applied but yes validation is largely a matter of empirical evidence so much more than just an opinion. More specifically based on a high volume of (objective) observations from experienced fitters. And I'm not referring to the less controlled (rather more random) "fittings" that one might experience in a retail store fitting. A good fitter in a quality fitting will be able to change specs independently (only shaft weight or only swing weight) and observer the changes to the actual measured data for the results for that specific spec for that individual.

 

 

Just my opinion, but the short answer is that the 'science' has as much to do with the concepts and theories of proprioception and goes well beyond the pure physics of motion.

[ShowMe]

20 grams is the weight of 4.4 sheets of paper. In other words, hardly anything. Can 4.4 sheets of paper make a noticeable difference in somebody's swing or how that swing feels?

 

It would seem that shaft stiffness would have a bigger impact on how a swing felt then 4 sheets of paper?

 

20 grams actually a huge change. Your way off base and not even in the same ballpark in comparisons.

 

Swing a 60 gram driver shaft vs an 80 and see if you can tell a difference.

 

A standard-sized sheet of paper weighs 4.5 grams. Given that (which is true), 4.4 sheets of paper weighs 20 grams. I'm swinging 4.5 sheets of paper right now and I cannot feel any weight difference compared to just swinging my arms while holding on to nothing.

 

Now maybe there's some physics or physiology to prove that adding 4.4 sheets of paper to a shaft's weight is enough for the average person to feel the difference, but I suspect it has more to do with the heavier shaft feeling stiffer because of the way the extra weight is distributed in the shaft (e.g., all at the bottom to get a stiffer tip), than the extra weight itself, and that we as humans interpret that extra stiffness as meaning heavier (if that makes sense).

 

I'll bet if you wrapped 4.4 sheets of paper uniformly across the whole of a shaft and blindfolded somebody, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference weight-wise between that shaft and the same shaft without the paper wrapped around it.

 

Now maybe there's some sort of tipping point where if a club is of a certain minimum weight to start with, adding 20 grams to that weight does allow the average person to perceive the difference? I don't know. It would be interesting to see the science behind that.

 

So I posit that it's not the extra weight itself that causes a difference in feel, but rather it's how and where that extra weight is distributed. If it's distributed evenly across the whole of the shaft, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if blindfolded. Not at 20 grams, anyway. Maybe not even at 40 grams (9 sheets of paper).

 

Am I incorrect? If so, is there some hard science to show that, or is it just an opinion based on empirical evidence?

 

I bring this up because of an experience I had this past weekend. I was at PGATSS hitting the Mizuno Hot Metal irons (great club, btw) with different shafts (they had a few 7 irons with different glued-in shafts). The one that felt the lightest to me when I was swinging was the 120g. C-Taper stiff, even though it was one of the heaviest shafts. In fact, it felt lighter than the graphite 90g. Project X LZ Tour 6.0 shaft.

 

I got to thinking that was strange given the 30g. difference in shaft weight. From everything I've ever read on this site and others, most people can easily tell the difference in a 20g. difference in weight, never mind 30g. That experience led to my theory detailed above.

 

Not trying to come across as a troll, just genuinely interested in the science (if there is any) behind this. If there isn't any, then maybe I have an idea to develop and take to Shark Tank. :)

 

I have a couple sets of irons with KBS Tour S (125g) and one set with a lightweight DG shaft at 103g. Can definitely feel the difference in weight. When I took a psychology course in college, they taught us about something called the JND (just noticeable difference). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-noticeable_difference

 

A delta of 20g is above the JND for a 100g golf shaft.

 

Psychology? I said hard science. JK! One of my daughters is a psychologist, so I have nothing but good things to say about the science and profession.

 

Interesting article. Thanks for pointing it out. Reading it, though, it states "The JND is a statistical, rather than an exact quantity: from trial to trial, the difference that a given person notices will vary somewhat, and it is therefore necessary to conduct many trials in order to determine the threshold. The JND usually reported is the difference that a person notices on 50% of trials."

 

This implies that experiments would have to be run on 100g shafts to determine at what extra weight there would be a JND. You stated that 20g would be above the JND. Did I miss something in the article?

[ShowMe]

So I posit that it's not the extra weight itself that causes a difference in feel, but rather it's how and where that extra weight is distributed. If it's distributed evenly across the whole of the shaft, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if blindfolded. Not at 20 grams, anyway. Maybe not even at 40 grams (9 sheets of paper).

 

Am I incorrect? If so, is there some hard science to show that, or is it just an opinion based on empirical evidence?

 

IMO, while distribution/balance can be important, it's about more than just that and the static weight is still important as well. The problem is that your analogy really isn't accurate. You say you can't feel the difference between swinging 4.5 sheets of paper and having nothing in your hands. Yet I could argue that you can feel the difference of just 1 sheets of paper and probably even less. Simply hold out your hand palm up and place 1 sheet of paper in that hand. Then with your eyes closed, have someone else place a second sheet of paper on top of that first one. I guarantee you that (unless maybe you have some nerve damage) you'll be able to feel that and tell exactly when that second piece of paper was placed on your hand. But both those analogies are actually pointless, it's all about context. And neither of those analogies are anywhere close to being a completely accurate context. The golf swing, actually trying to hit and make contact with a ball, is a very complex sequence of motions. It's done with much higher levels of acceleration - linear, rotational, and centripetal. And it's not a single motion, but a complex sequence where small changes in resistance and feel could result in the sequencing being off in a noticeable way. And it's not just the change in effort that may be required that we might feel, but also changes in resistance the club has to moving we feel in our hands (which are extremely sensitive).

 

So if you want to do any tests, you need to do it with an actual golf swing, actually trying to hit a ball, and also know exactly what was changed. Ideally it would be a blind test - and you'd have to look at not just whether there was a noticeable change in feel but also a measurable change in results. Also keep in mind you want to keep the number of swings down to just 2 or 3, since the idea is to test the impact of the change without testing your ability to adapt your swing to the change over time. But just for the sake of scientific curiosity, here is a simple starting point. Take your 6 and 7 iron, wrap 20 gm of lead tape around one of the shafts some where below the grip near the midpoint of the shaft. Alternate hitting the two, taking only 2-3 swings with each and see what happens. I'm not going to try and tell you what you will or will not feel - it's not a constant by any means - everyone is different in their levels of sensitivity.

 

There is some supporting science that I think you may be missing (and I could list a few things if needed) with respect to forces required to manipulate the club but "feel" is as much about perception as it is about crunching numbers in physics equations so very subjective and not something that is easy to define exactly, especially in a motion that is as varied and complex as a golf swing. I'm sure there are lots of theories that could be applied but yes validation is largely a matter of empirical evidence so much more than just an opinion. More specifically based on a high volume of (objective) observations from experienced fitters. And I'm not referring to the less controlled (rather more random) "fittings" that one might experience in a retail store fitting. A good fitter in a quality fitting will be able to change specs independently (only shaft weight or only swing weight) and observer the changes to the actual measured data for the results for that specific spec for that individual.

 

 

Just my opinion, but the short answer is that the 'science' has as much to do with the concepts and theories of proprioception and goes well beyond the pure physics of motion.

 

Thanks Stuart for your reply. I think a more accurate test to try and prove what I'm theorizing would be to close your eyes and have someone place one sheet of paper in your hand and then two, but in a random order. I suspect that most people would not be able to tell the difference beyond the random 50% guessing.

 

Regarding testing while swinging and hitting a ball, I was. The 120g C-Taper felt lighter to me while swinging and hitting a ball than did the 90g Project X shaft. I found that to be very interesting.

 

Regarding adding 20g of weight to the middle of the shaft, that goes to essence of what I theorize. I'm saying that adding 20g evenly spread over the length of a shaft would not feel heavier to a person swinging a club and would not significantly impact their proprioception (great word, btw, and very interesting science) vs. adding that same 20g to a concentrated area like the middle, top, or end of the shaft.

 

Hence, it's not purely the extra weight that makes the difference to a person's perception of weight; it's where that extra weight is added. The more uniformly the extra weight is spread out, the less somebody could tell that the club was heavier while swinging it (up to a certain point of course - the JND referenced by LeoLeo99). So when people state they are weight-sensitive, it's not purely the extra weight they are sensitive to, but rather where that extra weight occurs on the shaft.

 

Anyway, thanks again for your response. The considered thought you put into your responses is always appreciated. I don't always agree with your conclusions, but I know they come from reason and not emotion.

 

If nothing else, this conversation was an opportunity to learn about proprioception and JND. Someday, perhaps when I retire and actually have time on my hands, I'll ask my psychologist daughter to help me create an experiment to test out my theory and determine the JND for shaft weight increase.

[LeoLeo99]

20 grams is the weight of 4.4 sheets of paper. In other words, hardly anything. Can 4.4 sheets of paper make a noticeable difference in somebody's swing or how that swing feels?

 

It would seem that shaft stiffness would have a bigger impact on how a swing felt then 4 sheets of paper?

 

20 grams actually a huge change. Your way off base and not even in the same ballpark in comparisons.

 

Swing a 60 gram driver shaft vs an 80 and see if you can tell a difference.

 

A standard-sized sheet of paper weighs 4.5 grams. Given that (which is true), 4.4 sheets of paper weighs 20 grams. I'm swinging 4.5 sheets of paper right now and I cannot feel any weight difference compared to just swinging my arms while holding on to nothing.

 

Now maybe there's some physics or physiology to prove that adding 4.4 sheets of paper to a shaft's weight is enough for the average person to feel the difference, but I suspect it has more to do with the heavier shaft feeling stiffer because of the way the extra weight is distributed in the shaft (e.g., all at the bottom to get a stiffer tip), than the extra weight itself, and that we as humans interpret that extra stiffness as meaning heavier (if that makes sense).

 

I'll bet if you wrapped 4.4 sheets of paper uniformly across the whole of a shaft and blindfolded somebody, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference weight-wise between that shaft and the same shaft without the paper wrapped around it.

 

Now maybe there's some sort of tipping point where if a club is of a certain minimum weight to start with, adding 20 grams to that weight does allow the average person to perceive the difference? I don't know. It would be interesting to see the science behind that.

 

So I posit that it's not the extra weight itself that causes a difference in feel, but rather it's how and where that extra weight is distributed. If it's distributed evenly across the whole of the shaft, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if blindfolded. Not at 20 grams, anyway. Maybe not even at 40 grams (9 sheets of paper).

 

Am I incorrect? If so, is there some hard science to show that, or is it just an opinion based on empirical evidence?

 

I bring this up because of an experience I had this past weekend. I was at PGATSS hitting the Mizuno Hot Metal irons (great club, btw) with different shafts (they had a few 7 irons with different glued-in shafts). The one that felt the lightest to me when I was swinging was the 120g. C-Taper stiff, even though it was one of the heaviest shafts. In fact, it felt lighter than the graphite 90g. Project X LZ Tour 6.0 shaft.

 

I got to thinking that was strange given the 30g. difference in shaft weight. From everything I've ever read on this site and others, most people can easily tell the difference in a 20g. difference in weight, never mind 30g. That experience led to my theory detailed above.

 

Not trying to come across as a troll, just genuinely interested in the science (if there is any) behind this. If there isn't any, then maybe I have an idea to develop and take to Shark Tank. :)

 

I have a couple sets of irons with KBS Tour S (125g) and one set with a lightweight DG shaft at 103g. Can definitely feel the difference in weight. When I took a psychology course in college, they taught us about something called the JND (just noticeable difference). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-noticeable_difference

 

A delta of 20g is above the JND for a 100g golf shaft.

 

Psychology? I said hard science. JK! One of my daughters is a psychologist, so I have nothing but good things to say about the science and profession.

 

Interesting article. Thanks for pointing it out. Reading it, though, it states "The JND is a statistical, rather than an exact quantity: from trial to trial, the difference that a given person notices will vary somewhat, and it is therefore necessary to conduct many trials in order to determine the threshold. The JND usually reported is the difference that a person notices on 50% of trials."

 

This implies that experiments would have to be run on 100g shafts to determine at what extra weight there would be a JND. You stated that 20g would be above the JND. Did I miss something in the article?

 

Well, I can tell the difference between a 120g shaft and a 100g shaft side by side. I estimate the JND for a shaft weight to be about 5-10%. So, 5 to 10g. But swingweights... I'm not real sensitive to them. You could put 5g of lead tape on the head and I'd have trouble feeling the difference. There is also training and experience involved to discern things by human measurement.

[Stuart_G]

Thanks Stuart for your reply. I think a more accurate test to try and prove what I'm theorizing would be to close your eyes and have someone place one sheet of paper in your hand and then two, but in a random order. I suspect that most people would not be able to tell the difference beyond the random 50% guessing.

 

You may have missed my point - which was that none of the tests with the paper would have any amount of accuracy.

 

 

Regarding testing while swinging and hitting a ball, I was. The 120g C-Taper felt lighter to me while swinging and hitting a ball than did the 90g Project X shaft. I found that to be very interesting.

 

Interesting but not really conclusive. If you want to really test the effect of weight that's the only thing that should change in the test. Swing weight or head weight, grip weight, even grip size should be the same. Even different shafts with different bend profiles can skew the results. The effects of both weight and stiffness on feel are actually coupled a bit and distinctions can get blurry.

 

Regarding adding 20g of weight to the middle of the shaft, that goes to essence of what I theorize. I'm saying that adding 20g evenly spread over the length of a shaft would not feel heavier to a person swinging a club and would not significantly impact their proprioception (great word, btw, and very interesting science) vs. adding that same 20g to a concentrated area like the middle, top, or end of the shaft.

 

Hence, it's not purely the extra weight that makes the difference to a person's perception of weight; it's where that extra weight is added. The more uniformly the extra weight is spread out, the less somebody could tell that the club was heavier while swinging it (up to a certain point of course - the JND referenced by LeoLeo99). So when people state they are weight-sensitive, it's not purely the extra weight they are sensitive to, but rather where that extra weight occurs on the shaft.

 

If you'll look closer, I never argued it was just the total weight change and fully agree that distribution or where the weight is important as well. In fact, the further it is from the hands, typically the less weight is needed for a difference to be noticeable. There are two separate factors here (from the standpoint of the physics). Mass as a resistance to linear and centripetal acceleration (total static weight of the club), and mass as a resistance to rotational acceleration (MOI of the club which is mass * length squared).

 

The rough mid-point is just the more common location for testing the fit for shaft weight - which is the primary contributor to total static weight - but yes it also can contribute to swing weight and MOI of the club.

 

So if you want to test the sensitivity to static weight only, just move it up much closer to the hands, right below the grip or even try it wrapped around the very butt of the club so you have to choke up 1/2" to avoid the wrapped lead tape.

 

Anyway, thanks again for your response. The considered thought you put into your responses is always appreciated. I don't always agree with your conclusions, but I know they come from reason and not emotion.

 

If nothing else, this conversation was an opportunity to learn about proprioception and JND. Someday, perhaps when I retire and actually have time on my hands, I'll ask my psychologist daughter to help me create an experiment to test out my theory and determine the JND for shaft weight increase.

 

Any time, I enjoy a good objective discussion - even (or maybe especially?) when there are different opinions and viewpoints on the subject.

 

Well, I can tell the difference between a 120g shaft and a 100g shaft side by side. I estimate the JND for a shaft weight to be about 5-10%. So, 5 to 10g. But swingweights... I'm not real sensitive to them. You could put 5g of lead tape on the head and I'd have trouble feeling the difference. There is also training and experience involved to discern things by human measurement.

 

Just remember every one can have different levels of sensitivity to different types of weight changes. Not everyone moves (or accelerates) the club in the same way. Just some rough examples (not proven associations). someone with a quick aggressive transition might be more sensitive to the static weight than someone with a slower and smoother transition. Someone with a lot of lag and a late release maybe more sensitive to someone with little wrist c0ck and an early release. Someone with a death hold like grip tension may have poor sensitivity to any weight change.

[Howard_Jones]

The closer we get to what really fits the player, the more sensitive he becomes to changes from that, so if someone cant feel the difference between 2 clubs with 20 grams difference to shaft weight, non of those clubs is a good fit.

[Z1ggy16]

Guys just giving a heads up, I'm going to Golf Galaxy today, tomorrow or Sunday to hit some balls with MP25's (close enough to MP54). I'm going to use various shafts and take the data down. Since you all say my swing looks similar between each shaft, I assume it's just minute changes in my swing or even just the fact it's a blade vs GI that's causing the dispersion issues. Distance isn't really bugging me, I think it's a little bit lower than expected but not massively. Going to a lighter shaft may fix that.

 

Good job on the nice discussion I'm sure this is helpful to many people.

[starrman77]

A hernia would be a good indication your shafts are too heavy.

[Z1ggy16]

Good news I went to the range and I Really focused on moving my lower body more... aggressively? toward the target, and tried to keep more lag. At first I was shanking balls because I wasn't releasing the club at all in an effort to maintain that 90* lag position thru the down swing. But then I adjusted and I feel like these clubs came alive. I was outdoors so no clue on distances, but I even managed to get the 4i out there pretty well, which I had previously never been able to do.

 

I think that with these shafts, I need to make a pretty aggressive and intentional swing. Still keeping it smooth, not jerky... but I really have to give 100% every shot. With the Hot Metals and modus 105, I felt like every shot was more of a 90% effort, smoother and more even swing. I prefer that over having to go 100% because on downhill/uphill lies, I can't ever really swing 100%.

 

I just lifted weights last night... might take a day off to let the muscles recover and go to Golf Galaxy tomorrow to try out those MP25s. Hoping they are close enough in static weight that numbers would be similar between 25's and 54's.

[Z1ggy16]

Went and got fit. Ended up in project x lz in 6.0 flex. Man... These things feel so Smooth. Oddly enough the modus 105 just want the right fit in that head for me, I did try them.

 

Fwiw the pxlz are 120g, so it wasn't the weight throwing my off, it was 100% the loading profile.

 

So after all this, the s300 were never too heavy, they just flexed too close to the grip for my liking/swing.

[Cwebb]

Went and got fit. Ended up in project x lz in 6.0 flex. Man... These things feel so Smooth. Oddly enough the modus 105 just want the right fit in that head for me, I did try them.

 

Fwiw the pxlz are 120g, so it wasn't the weight throwing my off, it was 100% the loading profile.

 

So after all this, the s300 were never too heavy, they just flexed too close to the grip for my liking/swing.

 

The description many today use for that type of bend profile, is "butt soft, tip stiff". The Dynamic Gold taper tip has a butt section that is "softer" relative to it's very stiff tip

[Z1ggy16]

Went and got fit. Ended up in project x lz in 6.0 flex. Man... These things feel so Smooth. Oddly enough the modus 105 just want the right fit in that head for me, I did try them.

 

Fwiw the pxlz are 120g, so it wasn't the weight throwing my off, it was 100% the loading profile.

 

So after all this, the s300 were never too heavy, they just flexed too close to the grip for my liking/swing.

 

The description many today use for that type of bend profile, is "butt soft, tip stiff". The Dynamic Gold taper tip has a butt section that is "softer" relative to it's very stiff tip

Yeah the lz are more of a stiff soft stiff so it gives more of a mid bend point.

 

Despite the mid spin characteristics I was gaining distance over to s300. The feel was just great.

[ShowMe]

Went and got fit. Ended up in project x lz in 6.0 flex. Man... These things feel so Smooth. Oddly enough the modus 105 just want the right fit in that head for me, I did try them.

 

Fwiw the pxlz are 120g, so it wasn't the weight throwing my off, it was 100% the loading profile.

 

So after all this, the s300 were never too heavy, they just flexed too close to the grip for my liking/swing.

 

I'm the same way. It's not the weight of the shaft, per se, but rather how that weight is distributed and the way it makes the shaft bend as a result.

[davidsloftin]

Just my .02 cents. I think what people forget or have not realized, is that every person likes or dislikes certain swingweight. I for instance, cant like anything but D1 or D2 swingweight in any iron. If it it static weight and or swingweight that throws that to D4 im never going to like it. So, I would suggest with all of the very intelligent talk we have seen here, that golfers should know what they need, and like, when it comes to static weight (overall weight of the club) and swingweight ( weight of the club based on a measured point on the club). Remember, you can order clubs for you like i.e. a D2 swingweight. Hope I didnt butcher that too bad...

[ShowMe]

10 hours ago, davidsloftin said:

Just my .02 cents. I think what people forget or have not realized, is that every person likes or dislikes certain swingweight. I for instance, cant like anything but D1 or D2 swingweight in any iron. If it it static weight and or swingweight that throws that to D4 im never going to like it. So, I would suggest with all of the very intelligent talk we have seen here, that golfers should know what they need, and like, when it comes to static weight (overall weight of the club) and swingweight ( weight of the club based on a measured point on the club). Remember, you can order clubs for you like i.e. a D2 swingweight. Hope I didnt butcher that too bad...

How did you happen to come across this thread from 4 1/2 years ago?  Have you been on a deserted island all this time?  lol

[Tax77]

10 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

How did you happen to come across this thread from 4 1/2 years ago?  Have you been on a deserted island all this time?  lol

If you do a search on a browser for "golf shaft to heavy" this thread will most likely be in the top 5 results. Surprising it took this long to bump, perhaps it already covered all bases

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tax77
Spelling

[davidsloftin]

@ShowMe Obviously a new member. That would be indicative of my large 29 posts. Sorry if I offended you. Not sorry.

 

[davidsloftin]

@Tax77 No your correct. It was the most important topic on this. It was great information for me even 4.5 years later.