Lighter, Stiffer, and Lower Torque Shaft?

[sigbang]

I am a player hits the driver about 250 yards in carry distance. Based of the chart (http://www.golfwrx.c...ng-speed-chart/) My swing speed is about 100-106 mph. I have used a stiff flex shaft. Originally, this plan came from my desire to use X-stiff shafts, but I think my swing speed is not enough to go for it.

 

So I became curious about swing speed vs shaft weight. Theoretically, I can swing faster with lighter shaft based on Physics if everything else is fixed, but I will lose consistency of my swing. Also, I can get lower spin rate with lower torque, but I will lose some forgiveness and feels. I decided to ignore those disadvantages and to start this experiment.

 

I am preparing several shafts that I have picked among the major shaft brands (Aerotech, Aldila, Basileus, Crazy,Design Tuning, Fire Express, Fujikura, Geotech, Grafalloy, Graftech, Graphite Design, jBEAM, Mitsubishi Rayon, LOOP, Matrix, Muziik, NGS, Paderson, Project X, Roddio, Severn Dreamers, TRPX, UST Mamiya, Waccine Compo, XCaliber).

I selected the shafts based on the lowest torque spec on each weight that I might handle on my driver swing (My current shaft is 67.5g, 3.7 deg torque, Stiff). If any of you knows a shaft that is stiffer and lower torque on the same or less weight shaft in the list, let me know. I will test with Titleist 917D3 head and Surefit CG weight kit to vary the head weight as well.

 

 

If the speed is king, I think lighter is better. Am I missing something critical?

[sfdoddsy]

I think you may be putting too much faith in shafts. In my experience they are a tweak in terms of total distance.

 

For me they affect dispersion, feel and consistency more.

 

Have you been on a good launch monitor?

 

Based on the chart you link to you already carry it close to the optimum.

 

I would check the Trackman optimiser charts to see what you need to achieveto go further.

 

 

[sigbang]

I think you may be putting too much faith in shafts. In my experience they are a tweak in terms of total distance.

 

For me they affect dispersion, feel and consistency more.

 

Have you been on a good launch monitor?

 

Based on the chart you link to you already carry it close to the optimum.

 

I would check the Trackman optimiser charts to see what you need to achieveto go further.

Then do I lose the distance even with faster swing speed from lighter weight if I am in the optimum point now?

[Stuart_G]

So I became curious about swing speed vs shaft weight. Theoretically, I can swing faster with lighter shaft based on Physics if everything else is fixed, but I will lose consistency of my swing.

 

Everything else is never fixed. And the potential to get more speed from a lighter shaft only really exists if strength is one of the limiting factors with the 'normal' weight shaft. There is no guarantee that going with a lighter shaft really will increase swing speed. Finding the right shaft weight is usually much more about finding the best weight to match your natural sense of rhythm and timing than it is about strength, that's what will help generate the best swing speed AND the best impact position on the face. If the swing gets too erratic with too light weight a shaft, you could actually loose distance from poor impact (poor smash factor or high spin) even if the club head speed goes up.

 

But the only way to find out what will happen with you and your swing is to go out and experiment and try different options and see what happens to the actual results. So by all means go out experiment to your hearts content - just don't get your hopes up too high and keep an open mind about what really might be happening.

 

Also, I can get lower spin rate with lower torque, but I will lose some forgiveness and feels. I decided to ignore those disadvantages and to start this experiment.

 

What gave you that idea? spin and forgiveness will generally have nothing to do with the torque rating of the shaft. The only potential effect it has is on feel, and for most only really the feel at impact.

[sigbang]

So I became curious about swing speed vs shaft weight. Theoretically, I can swing faster with lighter shaft based on Physics if everything else is fixed, but I will lose consistency of my swing.

 

Everything else is never fixed. And the potential to get more speed from a lighter shaft only really exists if strength is one of the limiting factors with the 'normal' weight shaft. There is no guarantee that going with a lighter shaft really will increase swing speed. Finding the right shaft weight is usually much more about finding the best weight to match your natural sense of rhythm and timing than it is about strength, that's what will help generate the best swing speed AND the best impact position on the face. If the swing gets too erratic with too light weight a shaft, you could actually loose distance from poor impact (poor smash factor or high spin) even if the club head speed goes up.

 

But the only way to find out what will happen with you and your swing is to go out and experiment and try different options and see what happens to the actual results. So by all means go out experiment to your hearts content - just don't get your hopes up too high and keep an open mind about what really might be happening.

 

Also, I can get lower spin rate with lower torque, but I will lose some forgiveness and feels. I decided to ignore those disadvantages and to start this experiment.

 

 

What gave you that idea? spin and forgiveness will generally have nothing to do with the torque rating of the shaft. The only potential effect it has is on feel, and for most only really the feel at impact.

 

I understand your point on the swing weight. My curiosity is whether human can be adapted to that kind of erratic feeling from lighter shaft by practice. What if Tiger Woods used the lightest shaft in the world when he played golf at the very first time and he got used to it? Is the rule of thumb generated by human's natural sense of rhythm or by limitation of technology to make those shafts? These questions made me curious about the shaft dynamics.

 

I could check the spin rate is related to the stiffness because of the angle of the loft variation at the moment of impact. (MacKenzie, Sasho James, and Eric J. Sprigings. "Understanding the role of shaft stiffness in the golf swing." Sports Engineering 12.1 (2009): 13-19.)

I couldn't find anything about torque vs forgiveness, but I can easily imagine that torque of the shaft will change the spin rate either vertical and horizontal direction at impact (also depends on your lie angle) and it will be one of the factors that can control forgiveness as well. I guess this is the reason why you have softer feeling on higher torque shafts.

On the lower torque your draw/fade control will be more dominant on your swing path. I guess this mechanism is also applied to the adjustable weight heads like M1, EPIC SZ, 917D to change those torques. If they are not set to neutral, forgiveness will be increased to the left or the right, and that is why you can easily hit draw or fade with a wrench. This is how I understand.

 

 

I don't know if I can control any of the shafts in the list, but isn't it worth to try for fun?

[sfdoddsy]

 

 

As mentioned above, we are all different. I've recently tried out lighter shafts (50g range) against the 65ish I normally play.

 

On the launch monitor ball speed and dmash factor were noticeably worse even though swing speed was a tad higher.

 

On the course, I hit one drive slightly further (playing two balls) but the lighter shaft was again noticeably less consistent in distance and dispersion.

 

[Stuart_G]

I understand your point on the swing weight. My curiosity is whether human can be adapted to that kind of erratic feeling from lighter shaft by practice. What if Tiger Woods used the lightest shaft in the world when he played golf at the very first time and he got used to it? Is the rule of thumb generated by human's natural sense of rhythm or by limitation of technology to make those shafts? These questions made me curious about the shaft dynamics.

 

The limitation is your ability to coordinate and synchronize all the different parts of the body to deliver the club efficiently. The shaft weight only has a direct impact on a small number of all those different motions as far as being a limiting factor in what speed can be generated. (e.g. a lighter shaft wont help the hips turn or clear out of the way any faster or effect your ability to stay balanced though out the swing). It also has a very big impact on what you feel during the swing that tells you where the shaft is and what it's doing so you can apply the proper motion to get the desired motion. in that last respect, some may be able to 'get used to it' and compensate for the loss of feedback but others will not.

 

I could check the spin rate is related to the stiffness because of the angle of the loft variation at the moment of impact. (MacKenzie, Sasho James, and Eric J. Sprigings. "Understanding the role of shaft stiffness in the golf swing." Sports Engineering 12.1 (2009): 13-19.)

 

That's longitudinal (bending) stiffness, not torsional stiffness. Completely different things. It's not uncommon for people to assume that lower torque also means stronger longitudinal stiffness, particularly of the tip section. It may have been true to some small degree at one point in the past, but it's no longer the case that one can make that assumption. The shaft designers now (and for a while now) have the ability to design those two specs somewhat independently (they can achieve a much wider range of torque values for the same longitudinal bend profile).

 

I couldn't find anything about torque vs forgiveness, but I can easily imagine that torque of the shaft will change the spin rate either vertical and horizontal direction at impact (also depends on your lie angle) and it will be one of the factors that can control forgiveness as well. I guess this is the reason why you have softer feeling on higher torque shafts.

 

Sorry, no it wont effect/change the spin rates. The ball is long gone before the effects of the torsional stiffness have any effect on the motion/reaction of the head from impact with the ball. What you feel comes from what happens after the ball is gone.

 

Well - let me clarify that a bit. It wont for the range of torques that you will see in modern shafts as long as you are even close to the right flex for your swing. 30 years ago, torque's in the ~6.0 or greater range may certainly have been an issue for some of the faster swing speed players or those with very late releases when it came to accuracy and consistency. But even that was about controlling the club head though delivery, not on how it might 'stabalize' the head at impact.

 

On the lower torque your draw/fade control will be more dominant on your swing path. I guess this mechanism is also applied to the adjustable weight heads like M1, EPIC SZ, 917D to change those torques. If they are not set to neutral, forgiveness will be increased to the left or the right, and that is why you can easily hit draw or fade with a wrench. This is how I understand.

 

That's from the adjustment changing the face angle of the head. Again, nothing to do with the torsional stiffness of the shaft.

 

 

If you get some fun out of playing around - then go for it. I'm certainly not trying to stop you. Just trying to clear up some misunderstandings with respect to your expectations and the actual importance of some of the factors you are considering.

[sigbang]

I understand your point on the swing weight. My curiosity is whether human can be adapted to that kind of erratic feeling from lighter shaft by practice. What if Tiger Woods used the lightest shaft in the world when he played golf at the very first time and he got used to it? Is the rule of thumb generated by human's natural sense of rhythm or by limitation of technology to make those shafts? These questions made me curious about the shaft dynamics.

 

The limitation is your ability to coordinate and synchronize all the different parts of the body to deliver the club efficiently. The shaft weight only has a direct impact on a small number of all those different motions as far as being a limiting factor in what speed can be generated. (e.g. a lighter shaft wont help the hips turn or clear out of the way any faster or effect your ability to stay balanced though out the swing). It also has a very big impact on what you feel during the swing that tells you where the shaft is and what it's doing so you can apply the proper motion to get the desired motion. in that last respect, some may be able to 'get used to it' and compensate for the loss of feedback but others will not.

 

That is why I put "practice" term. I agree it will be hard to play with that shaft. I just want to focus on the physical factors only from the shaft, not from my natural sense of rhythm. This is what I meant by "fixed".

[sneaky_pete]

I'm no guru.

 

There a lot of variables. My driver swing speed is 105 mph. When I got fitted for a driver the spin rates I was getting were too much (e.g. 3500rpm+). I now use an X-Stiff (low spin, low launch) shaft because it lowers my driver spin rates in combination with a low spinning driver head. I am down to around 2000rpm now. I have better control and tighter dispersion, which is what I wanted.

 

There is no way, based on swing speed alone, that I should be using an X-Stiff shaft. It works for my game because of all the other things going on with my swing and the way I deliver the club to the ball.

 

The only way to really know is to get properly fitted to find the best combo for your game.

[sigbang]

I could check the spin rate is related to the stiffness because of the angle of the loft variation at the moment of impact. (MacKenzie, Sasho James, and Eric J. Sprigings. "Understanding the role of shaft stiffness in the golf swing." Sports Engineering 12.1 (2009): 13-19.)

 

That's longitudinal (bending) stiffness, not torsional stiffness. Completely different things. It's not uncommon for people to assume that lower torque also means stronger longitudinal stiffness, particularly of the tip section. It may have been true to some small degree at one point in the past, but it's no longer the case that one can make that assumption. The shaft designers now (and for a while now) have the ability to design those two specs somewhat independently (they can achieve a much wider range of torque values for the same longitudinal bend profile).

 

Yes, I know it is different Torque means tendency to be twisted. It will affect to attack of the angle when you have not the right torque for your swing speed. Yes, I just found an article about the matching ability of shaft designers. (http://wishongolf.co...ect-performance)

 

I couldn't find anything about torque vs forgiveness, but I can easily imagine that torque of the shaft will change the spin rate either vertical and horizontal direction at impact (also depends on your lie angle) and it will be one of the factors that can control forgiveness as well. I guess this is the reason why you have softer feeling on higher torque shafts.

 

Sorry, no it wont effect/change the spin rates. The ball is long gone before the effects of the torsional stiffness have any effect on the motion/reaction of the head from impact with the ball. What you feel comes from what happens after the ball is gone.

 

Well - let me clarify that a bit. It wont for the range of torques that you will see in modern shafts as long as you are even close to the right flex for your swing. 30 years ago, torque's in the ~6.0 or greater range may certainly have been an issue for some of the faster swing speed players or those with very late releases when it came to accuracy and consistency. But even that was about controlling the club head though delivery, not on how it might 'stabalize' the head at impact.

 

It will change the spin rates if your swing speed is faster than its torque can sustain. The article linked above also shows that is why S and X stiff shaft rarely have higher than 4 degs. For the lower swing speed like R or L stiff shaft, we don't need such low torque spec because the slow swing speed won't twist the shaft at the moment of impact.

I guess people don't think of the torque as a factor of the spin rate because the designers already put the enough torque on its matching swing speed (L,R,S,X). So I don't think there is any point on lightweight shaft to increase swing speed for the players who is already in X-stiff as long as those company starts to make triple x-stiff on longer shaft with higher kick point because they are already in the max point.

 

However, I guess the players like me (in between s-tiff and x stiff) can try lighter shaft to increase swing speed, and then I will have to choose x-stiff shaft According to the article, the designers already make them matched spec for both stiffness and torque, I might not need to consider the torque then. In that case, it will be personal things based on feeling. Again the reason why I mentioned the factors was to find theoretical factors.

[sigbang]

On the lower torque your draw/fade control will be more dominant on your swing path. I guess this mechanism is also applied to the adjustable weight heads like M1, EPIC SZ, 917D to change those torques. If they are not set to neutral, forgiveness will be increased to the left or the right, and that is why you can easily hit draw or fade with a wrench. This is how I understand.

 

That's from the adjustment changing the face angle of the head. Again, nothing to do with the torsional stiffness of the shaft.

 

I meant the adjustment for the center of mass in the head. You can definitely change the lie angle with hosel, but M1 and 917 have adjustment to put the more mass on heel or toe. If you put a weight on the toe, you are making more torque on the same direction where the shaft is twisted. It is giving more forgiveness to the toe and you can easily hit fade and vice versa with draw. Again, I know these are independent factors from the shaft but I was going to explain how the torque of the shaft can affect on forgiveness.

 

If you get some fun out of playing around - then go for it. I'm certainly not trying to stop you. Just trying to clear up some misunderstandings with respect to your expectations and the actual importance of some of the factors you are considering.

 

I don't expect the factors can significantly improve my distance neither but I wanted to make sure I am chasing right things in theoretical. I hope I can get some fun.

[sigbang]

As mentioned above, we are all different. I've recently tried out lighter shafts (50g range) against the 65ish I normally play.

 

On the launch monitor ball speed and dmash factor were noticeably worse even though swing speed was a tad higher.

 

On the course, I hit one drive slightly further (playing two balls) but the lighter shaft was again noticeably less consistent in distance and dispersion.

 

I am aiming the one you hit further without consistency :)

[Nard_S]

You may want to try going heavier to 75g shaft.

 

Best driver I own has a 75 g shaft, the consistency and directional control surpasses some of the iconic bombers I have owned.

 

So when I want to step on it, I can, when i just want to keep it in play I can.

 

It's the only driver I have ever drove par 5's in two with.

[Stuart_G]

It will change the spin rates if your swing speed is faster than its torque can sustain. The article linked above also shows that is why S and X stiff shaft rarely have higher than 4 degs. For the lower swing speed like R or L stiff shaft, we don't need such low torque spec because the slow swing speed won't twist the shaft at the moment of impact.\

 

Actually, in that article, Tom's talking about the torsional forces during the swing that are rotating and squaring up the club face into impact, not the forces from impact with the ball.

 

And in the last few years, we're starting to see those torque designs go up a bit and the shaft designers have come to realize how much torque really does effect the end result and look at it as providing a more significant influence from the stand point of feel as opposed to dynamic stability (e.g. look at the Aldila 2KXV line and the UST research on torque during the original development of the VTS line).

 

 

In that case, it will be personal things based on feeling. Again the reason why I mentioned the factors was to find theoretical factors.

 

Yes - and no problem.

 

I meant the adjustment for the center of mass in the head. You can definitely change the lie angle with hosel, but M1 and 917 have adjustment to put the more mass on heel or toe. If you put a weight on the toe, you are making more torque on the same direction where the shaft is twisted. It is giving more forgiveness to the toe and you can easily hit fade and vice versa with draw. Again, I know these are independent factors from the shaft but I was going to explain how the torque of the shaft can affect on forgiveness.

 

OK thanks for the clarification on what you were referring to but I think you still may be a bit off track. Although I can't say I fully understood what you were trying to say.

 

The primary effect that happens with respect to the moving weight technology is gear effect. Given the same impact location on the face, when the c.g. moves relative to that impact location, gear effect will cause the amount of spin to change. It may sound counter intuitive, but while gear effect is a result of the club head twisting, the torque of the shaft actually has a negligible impact on the amount of gear effect. Largely because the impact happens way to fast and the ball is long gone before the torsional stiffness of the shaft will start to inhibit the twisting of the head.

[Payton1020]

I have used a stiff flex shaft. Originally, this plan came from my desire to use X-stiff shafts

 

 

I don't get this. Is this for your ego or what?

[sigbang]

I meant the adjustment for the center of mass in the head. You can definitely change the lie angle with hosel, but M1 and 917 have adjustment to put the more mass on heel or toe. If you put a weight on the toe, you are making more torque on the same direction where the shaft is twisted. It is giving more forgiveness to the toe and you can easily hit fade and vice versa with draw. Again, I know these are independent factors from the shaft but I was going to explain how the torque of the shaft can affect on forgiveness.

 

OK thanks for the clarification on what you were referring to but I think you still may be a bit off track. Although I can't say I fully understood what you were trying to say.

 

The primary effect that happens with respect to the moving weight technology is gear effect. Given the same impact location on the face, when the c.g. moves relative to that impact location, gear effect will cause the amount of spin to change. It may sound counter intuitive, but while gear effect is a result of the club head twisting, the torque of the shaft actually has a negligible impact on the amount of gear effect. Largely because the impact happens way to fast and the ball is long gone before the torsional stiffness of the shaft will start to inhibit the twisting of the head.

 

Yes, gear effect is result of the torque of head itself, and the torque comes from the fade/draw weight adjustment on heel or toe. I tried to explain the torque in the shaft is also acting as the fade/draw adjustment to give you an idea about the relationship between torque and forgiveness. The effect can be unnoticeable, but it won't if the shaft is used out of the speed range that the shaft is initially designed for.

[sigbang]

I have used a stiff flex shaft. Originally, this plan came from my desire to use X-stiff shafts

 

 

I don't get this. Is this for your ego or what?

 

I thought this was for my ego, but I just noticed that many WRXers are wondering this.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/150755-shafts-light-x-stiff-vs-heavier-stiff/

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/209261-heavy-stiff-or-light-x-stiff-shaft/

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1272344-lightest-x-stiff-driver-shaft/

[Nard_S]

If the choice is light X vs heavy S:

 

No doubt in my mind, best bet is heavy S.

 

At 250 w/ driver that is not X flex territory.

 

You can use it but it is going to make your tee shots more difficult for too little benefit.

[Stuart_G]

Yes, gear effect is result of the torque of head itself, and the torque comes from the fade/draw weight adjustment on heel or toe. I tried to explain the torque in the shaft is also acting as the fade/draw adjustment to give you an idea about the relationship between torque and forgiveness. The effect can be unnoticeable,

 

As I explained earlier, it's not acting with any effect to reduce the gear effect and it will always be unnoticeable in that context.

 

 

but it won't if the shaft is used out of the speed range that the shaft is initially designed for.

 

That's a completely different aspect of the dynamics. The torque of the shaft being suitable to the swing is all about the torsional forces the player applies to the shaft in the down swing and release to square the head. That's not the same as the torque applied to the head from impact and therefore not related to the amount of gear effect.

 

Forgiveness and gear effect is only really about the MOI of the head.

[sigbang]

If the choice is light X vs heavy S:

 

No doubt in my mind, best bet is heavy S.

 

At 250 w/ driver that is not X flex territory.

 

You can use it but it is going to make your tee shots more difficult for too little benefit.

 

I agree. It's clear answer.

[sigbang]

but it won't if the shaft is used out of the speed range that the shaft is initially designed for.

 

That's a completely different aspect of the dynamics. The torque of the shaft being suitable to the swing is all about the torsional forces the player applies to the shaft in the down swing and release to square the head. That's not the same as the torque applied to the head from impact and therefore not related to the amount of gear effect.

 

Forgiveness and gear effect is only really about the MOI of the head.

 

Fortunately, I found you commented on another curiosity here(http://www.golfwrx.c...ng-gear-effect/), and I found the information you are referring to. Here (http://www.tutelman..../gearEffect.php)

 

I am happy to have the clear answer that is that the shaft torque can affect on gear effect effect as I expected but the ratio is small (The torque on the clubhead due to impact with the ball/The torque on the clubhead from the shaft due to twist = ~1%) due to 99% of ball impact is absorbed by the head based on their calculation with average head size. This might be the reason why you keep telling they are not related. The information helps me a lot to choose the optimal shaft but my desire for the experiment is still remained. However, I am really satisfied with the physical calculations he did to check my assuming.

Remarkably, the article also mentioned the shaft torque can influence ear effect for hybrids with a smaller head with below 2 degs of torque. This also makes me to test the lighter and stiffer hybrid shafts later.

 

BTW, my curiosity was more on Weight and Stiffness resulting higher ball speed. Torque for the lower spin rate is now an option. Did anyone try light stiffer rather than heavy softer shaft as Nard_S mentioned? This only applies to those of you who are in "Stiff Flex or lower swing speed" territory. In terms of distance, not of difficulty, can you see any improvement on the swing speed?

[Payton1020]

I have used a stiff flex shaft. Originally, this plan came from my desire to use X-stiff shafts

 

 

I don't get this. Is this for your ego or what?

 

I thought this was for my ego, but I just noticed that many WRXers are wondering this.

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...-heavier-stiff/

http://www.golfwrx.c...-x-stiff-shaft/

http://www.golfwrx.c...f-driver-shaft/

 

There's a difference in finding what fits or changing ball flight and having a "desire to use x-stiff shafts".

[Stuart_G]

Remarkably, the article also mentioned the shaft torque can influence ear effect for hybrids with a smaller head with below 2 degs of torque. This also makes me to test the lighter and stiffer hybrid shafts later.

 

Just realize that that particular comment was speculative, and not validated.

 

But glad you found the site. Tutelman's site can be a great resource for the scientific minded. Not the most up to date w/ respect to current equipment specs and advances but the basic physics hasn't changed.

 

BTW, my curiosity was more on Weight and Stiffness resulting higher ball speed. Torque for the lower spin rate is now an option. Did anyone try light stiffer rather than heavy softer shaft as Nard_S mentioned? This only applies to those of you who are in "Stiff Flex or lower swing speed" territory. In terms of distance, not of difficulty, can you see any improvement on the swing speed?

 

Now we are back to the classic (but likely frustrating) answer of - it completely depends on the individual and how they and their swing respond to the change in feel for each of those shaft characteristics changing. If you want to take on this experiment, then the only way to find out is to go out and try the different combinations. There is no way to get any accurate predictions on what might happen for a given individual.

[sigbang]

Two years later, now I am using project x 54g x-stiff shaft. I hit 300 yrds that was my initial goal. Thanks to Stuart, it was worth to try.

I am also glad to see many of manufacturers are trying to put lighter shafts on their stock lineups.

[Stuart_G]

Thanks for the update. Did it take long to adjust to the lighter weight?

[ian-500]

> @sigbang said:

> Two years later, now I am using project x 54g x-stiff shaft. I hit 300 yrds that was my initial goal. Thanks to Stuart, it was worth to try.

> I am also glad to see many of manufacturers are trying to put lighter shafts on their stock lineups.

Still using the 917 D3?

Did you try any other 50g shafts?