What are the odds a 17 HC shoots 5 over in a tournament?

[Blade Junkie]

In the UK, there is the ability for the handicap committee to apply an "exceptional scoring reduction", on top of the normal scoring adjustments, in the event that someone repeatedly plays significantly better than their handicap, and this usually puts a stop to this sort of thing.

[Danm2501]

Feel like I'm going to have one of these rounds soon. Not been playing long, bout 4 years, currently have a handicap of 15 and the last few weeks I've been putting together some really good scores. Shot 83, 80, and then two 9 hole scores of 37 (+2) and 38 (+3) last weekend. That 38 included a triple on the first too. Going to be a bit more difficult when we move back to the comp tees and have to begin playing the ball as it lies, but playing some very good golf after a solid winter of practice so hopefully a cut is around the corner.

[Ferguson]

I don't get the whole sandbagging thing. First, golf is a game of integrity and honor...the sandbagger has none. Second, a sandbagger KNOWS he didn't win...he knows he cheated...so what does he really get out of it? Whatever he gets, he knows he didn't earn it.

 

Sandbaggers should be immediately suspended from the club, and from all remaining tournaments for the rest of the season. And their names put on a bulletin board stating that they sandbagged.

 

They are the worse of worst. "People" like that ruin playing in tournaments for everyone.

 

One problem with calling them out. No one can prove the inflated rounds are truly inflated. Just like no one knows if a player takes a mulligan when playing as a single and doesn't count it. It's about character, and the sandbagger has none.

 

They are right up there with left-handers and their special clubs.

[nsxguy]

Most are cheaters and they know it, BUT i have seen a few legit guys do stuff like that.

 

One guy was a 4 or 5 cap and got the $hanks real bad from about 2 years. He went up to and 18+. But he would have little spurts where $hank free games would happen and he would shoot is good old mid/low 70's. He was a classy guy though and would not go into events or bet given how wild his scoring could be.

 

if you are an 18 that used to be low capper these things happen. But NEVER if you are a solid 18.

 

ACTUALLY....true story.

 

I took a group of golfers from my club to a pro-am: a 25, a 19, and a 12.

 

The 19 thinned his 3rd shot on a par 5 (you guessed it...it went in for a 3, net 1)

 

A few holes later, short par 4....he drove the front fringe of the green, the pin is at least 70' at the back of the green.....

 

Walloped his putt, and you guessed it again....hits the pin and drops for a 2....net 1.

 

Now, I played with these guys for over 2 years, and recorded all their scores when they played on their home course, where I was Asst Pro, and they were as honest as the day is long.

 

Forget the fact that the 19...the guy with 2 net 1's.....shot about about 95 that day....including his 2 miracle shots....we were called cheats and liars for the rest of the year.

 

So....it does happen, and I happened to be a witness to it that day.

 

Imagine...the 2 birdies that I shot on those 2 holes didn't even count towards our team score!

 

but....it doesn't happen week in and week out

 

The odds say some strange things happen on the golf course every single day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

The odds of a 13-22 handicap shooting a net differential of -10 or less is 37000 to 1. Here's the odds chart if you'd like to compare: http://oga.org/sites...ility Table.pdf

 

Yep.. according to the "Pope of Slope" Dean Knuth, the odds of beating your handicap if you're a 16, and breaking 80 on a course rated 71.2 are 1,138 to 1

 

As someone else here on WRX pointed out, if the 465,000,000 rounds played per year in the USA is accurate, that means it happens, on average, some 1,100 times PER DAY.

[bok006]

A few years ago two out-of-towners joined a 2-man scramble tournament at my club. They were a 12 and a 14 respectively.

2nd prize was won with a 63, while the two out-of-towners posted a 54 to take top honors.

Nobody applauded when they picked up their trophy. Even our pro, who's usually a very patient man, just gave them the "seriously?" stare when handing them the trophy.

Prizes for scoring well and winning have since been reduced while the raffle prizes have increased in value, as this wasn't an isolated incident. My hope for any tournament I enter is now reduced from having a good round and get on the podium to buying a lucky raffle ticket.....

 

 

Still not as bad as what happened to a friend of mine who experienced blatant cheating rather than sandbagging.

He entered a high profile gross tournament for senior players and posted 67.

He was a good player, he was 70 years old at the time but during our weekly rounds he'd regularly shoot his age or better, so I had no problem believing he could shoot 67 if he put his mind to it.

The trophy presentation at the tournament was to take place during a gala dinner later that evening. Many other players congratulated my friend on the win and good play during the 4 hours that had to be spent between the end of the round and the gala dinner started. 10 minutes before the trophy was being handed out, another player turned in a scorecard posting a 66! And it was accepted by the tournament committee.....

My friend never entered another tournament in this country......

[Loki]

Still not as bad as what happened to a friend of mine who experienced blatant cheating rather than sandbagging.

He entered a high profile gross tournament for senior players and posted 67.

He was a good player, he was 70 years old at the time but during our weekly rounds he'd regularly shoot his age or better, so I had no problem believing he could shoot 67 if he put his mind to it.

The trophy presentation at the tournament was to take place during a gala dinner later that evening. Many other players congratulated my friend on the win and good play during the 4 hours that had to be spent between the end of the round and the gala dinner started. 10 minutes before the trophy was being handed out, another player turned in a scorecard posting a 66! And it was accepted by the tournament committee.....

My friend never entered another tournament in this country......

 

A couple years ago, I played in a tourney with a nice enough guy, guy #1. Weird things happened on that round that I couldn't reconcile, shots that were better than expected out of the lie, etc. The other player, guy #2, in our threesome was his marker and wrote the card in pencil.

 

After the end of the round we did the score accounting, but I never heard what guy #1 shot. I headed to the scoreboard and turned in my scorecard. There was guy #1, looking at the scoreboard. Then he left. 10 minutes later he re-appeared to present his scorecard. He made the cut by a couple. Guy #2, had left the course immediately so I couldn't verify what guy #1 shot with him.

 

The most interesting thing? Guy #1 kept my score with a felt tip pen.

[razz11]

I personally am a guy that really bucks the system... My handicap floats around a 7-8. I am terribly inconsistent and quite regularly shoot in the low-mid 70s. I almost feel bad when I put up those rounds in tournaments. Went to a tournament last year and the first time seeing the course I shot a 69. Just a day that I had it all. Actually could have been a 66-67 very easily, but I almost never "have" my putter.

 

I am about the best possible partner in a 2-man best ball tournament that you can have.

[larrybud]

My bet is your course either doesn't have a Handicap Committee or has one that isn;t doing their job.

 

I have to ask, do you really have a handicap committee? Do you not realize most courses do not? I mean, most people post the scores via internet what they want. There's no checking at all, (which, on a tangent is why the "no solo post" scores are ridiculous).

[ajschn06]

My cousin is married to some goober that I've never been a fan of, but he likes golf so when I see him we talk. He was telling me about his recent rounds and how he's been playing better than ever shooting in the low 40's for 9 holes - I say that's great and he goes, "No, the club championship is next week- I gotta get my handicap up"

 

That's when I realized I was happy I've never kept an official handicap

[GHIN n Juice]

I'm not a bagger and wasn't in my youth either but I can say this is possible because I've done it. Round was investigated by the local Golf association and they found nothing but a 1 in 37000 round. I shot 75 off a 17 in a tournament about 20 years ago and the $hit hit the fan when it was posted. Local association reviewed my tournament rounds over the previous two years and found no funny stuff. I shot 96 in the same tournament the previous year and didn't break 85 in the 5 previous tournaments.

 

And for all of you thinking I sandbagged my rounds for the 1 win, it was the smallest purse that year with $270 in pro shop money for 1st. I was in well over $270 in tournament fees that year.

[mizuno player]

People cheat at everything..... If a trophy or money is on the line all bets are off.

 

It's just sad that people are like this such a hallow "victory".

 

There are people that can catch lightening in a bottle every blue moon. I've seen it and congratulated them on a great round. That's different. Sandbaggers are scum.

 

 

[larrybud]

I personally am a guy that really bucks the system... My handicap floats around a 7-8. I am terribly inconsistent and quite regularly shoot in the low-mid 70s. I almost feel bad when I put up those rounds in tournaments. Went to a tournament last year and the first time seeing the course I shot a 69. Just a day that I had it all. Actually could have been a 66-67 very easily, but I almost never "have" my putter.

 

I am about the best possible partner in a 2-man best ball tournament that you can have.

 

What is "quite regularly" mean? How can you be an 8 and shoot in the low 70s "quite regularly"?? I mean, 1 in 5, 1 in 20??

[larrybud]

In the UK, there is the ability for the handicap committee to apply an "exceptional scoring reduction", on top of the normal scoring adjustments, in the event that someone repeatedly plays significantly better than their handicap, and this usually puts a stop to this sort of thing.

 

We have that as well, but the really good sandbaggers manipulate their scores well enough not to trigger the reductions. There's a couple of guys who have won the Gam 2-man event a number of times in the last 10 years. Their T scores are consistently 2-3 shots better than their non-tournament scores (I've checked!). "just good enough" to make a big difference.

 

After all, if we all shot 3 shots better, we'd have handicaps 3 shots lower.

[tatertot]

I personally am a guy that really bucks the system... My handicap floats around a 7-8. I am terribly inconsistent and quite regularly shoot in the low-mid 70s. I almost feel bad when I put up those rounds in tournaments. Went to a tournament last year and the first time seeing the course I shot a 69. Just a day that I had it all. Actually could have been a 66-67 very easily, but I almost never "have" my putter.

 

I am about the best possible partner in a 2-man best ball tournament that you can have.

 

You're actually quite common ... you're called a "sandbagger."

[Ferguson]

I personally am a guy that really bucks the system... My handicap floats around a 7-8. I am terribly inconsistent and quite regularly shoot in the low-mid 70s. I almost feel bad when I put up those rounds in tournaments. Went to a tournament last year and the first time seeing the course I shot a 69. Just a day that I had it all. Actually could have been a 66-67 very easily, but I almost never "have" my putter.

 

I am about the best possible partner in a 2-man best ball tournament that you can have.

 

You're actually quite common ... you're called a "sandbagger."

 

 

Makes him feel like a man.

[Sean2]

I don't get the whole sandbagging thing. First, golf is a game of integrity and honor...the sandbagger has none. Second, a sandbagger KNOWS he didn't win...he knows he cheated...so what does he really get out of it? Whatever he gets, he knows he didn't earn it.

 

Sandbaggers should be immediately suspended from the club, and from all remaining tournaments for the rest of the season. And their names put on a bulletin board stating that they sandbagged.

 

They are the worse of worst. "People" like that ruin playing in tournaments for everyone.

 

With all due respect: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Never happen at a $10g/year club.

 

Having said that...I agree 100%, it WILL NEVER happen.

 

I know. They are a protected class.

[Micjhenr]

Feel like I'm going to have one of these rounds soon. Not been playing long, bout 4 years, currently have a handicap of 15 and the last few weeks I've been putting together some really good scores. Shot 83, 80, and then two 9 hole scores of 37 (+2) and 38 (+3) last weekend. That 38 included a triple on the first too. Going to be a bit more difficult when we move back to the comp tees and have to begin playing the ball as it lies, but playing some very good golf after a solid winter of practice so hopefully a cut is around the corner.

 

 

You won't be a 15 long. You have to be trending 4-5 points lower after those rounds.

[tw_focus]

This is exactly why the handicap system is complete garbage and should never be used for tournaments.

 

What if the guy took lessons in the past few weeks, but didn't play 9 / 18 complete holes? That wouldn't make him a cheater...

 

What if he had the round of his life? Can't you just be happy for him, let the guy enjoy his great round?

 

What if he is a cheater though? What a piece of garbage, stealing your tournament money... has he no shame?!?

 

Now instead of a fun game of golf, you have a cloud of suspicion and vitriol, you have turned something great into something awful.

 

Next time throw away the handicap, let the low score win.

[RBImGuy]

There are about 4 guys in my men's club that always seem to shoot miracle rounds in tournaments and take big $ in the games. I've only been in the club for about 3 years. I only play about 4 a year. But I see all the results of all the tourney's because they send them out to the members.

 

After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice. And that I'm not paying into side games anymore until it's addressed. Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament. Just a few weeks back he shot 104! And another guy with similar posted scores over 100, an 18 HC shoots 81. The are among a group of guys it seems to be a trend with.

 

I've played with these guys because I'm a 15, so we go out in the same groups and I post ALL my scores, so I know I'm a legit 15. And these dudes are not being honest. Ruins it for everybody else.

 

if a system can be abused without penalty, people going to keep doing it

[Matchplay10033]

I think you need to look at the entire picture before someone gets accused of being a cheat. I was a scratch golfer in the early 2000's and was approaching having a plus handicap then gave up. From about 2004-2015 I averaged a total of 1-2 solo rounds a year and mostly played in scrambles there were a few years I never touched a club. I eventually started to suck and became a bogey/double bogey golfer. I did not keep track of my handicap during those days but it was probably around a 12-15. Every so often a round would pop up where I would shoot in the upper 70's almost like I remembered how to golf again. Last year I got back into golf and worked my butt off, took lessons, monitored my progress, and got myself down to a 4 handicap. I had rounds last year ranging from the upper 60's when everything was clicking to the low 90's.

 

In my County you see the same people constantly winning certain flights in our Amateur tourney. EVERY year they will qualify with a 90 and somehow shoot a mid- low 70 for the win! It is sickening and it is across the board in all the flights. Same with scrambles.... I put together a great team to try and win my work tournament. I had the best golfer in my area on my team, won several county am titles, played division 1 golf and won his country club's championship 5 times in a row. The other guy was a scratch, I was a 4 and we had another county AM winner. We shot 20 Under par on a difficult and windy day. A group of Lawyers ( No joke) that drank about a 5th of rum a piece and individually never broke 90 came in with the same score !!!!! When I get in scrambles now I have no expectations, try and win a skin or two and just enjoy the day.

[Mulligan26]

We have a guy that plays in our Thursday morning 55+ league, that's a rampant bagger. EVERYONE knows about it. I look at his scores every week; Mon-Wed 91, 95, 98. Then magically on Thursdays 79, 80, 81. He's old as dirt and did well when he was working so it's not about money, the dude is just a co**.

 

I don't know what his actual index is off the top of my head but it's much higher than it should be. Does it piss all of us Pro staff off? Yes! But can we really do anything about it. Nope.

"Every Knows about it"?????? Sounds like everyone is afraid to report this character to their Handicap Committee.

 

Either that or they don't care enough. I'm getting to the point in my career where I don't have as much time to police it anymore.

[Bad9]

In the UK, there is the ability for the handicap committee to apply an "exceptional scoring reduction", on top of the normal scoring adjustments, in the event that someone repeatedly plays significantly better than their handicap, and this usually puts a stop to this sort of thing.

 

In Canada I believe it's called(at least was) "Arbitrary Handicap Adjustment" The power resides with the handicap committee chair and/or club captain.

[DavePelz4]

For our group's season which is about 15 events in a Stableford format, we're doing real-time, event only handicaps. Obviously a lot more volatility and it's reflective of how you're playing in the events as opposed to your entire season.

 

Not saying for a moment that this is the best or right approach just that we're going to try it and see what happens.

[Bad9]

Keep in mind what the OP describes is not a guy randomly shooting a good score, we all do that. Its just having a good day. What he's describing are guys who are obviously, and systematically sandbagging. Shooting routinely at or above 100 but suddenly shooting in the 70's in a tournament. repeatedly. If anything it should be reversed. The guys he mentioned are cheaters and the club is letting it happen. If you shoot at or below 80 multiple times in a few months but are still a 17hc I don't see how you're not sandbagging, even if you post a score every day.

[Sean2]

I don't get the whole sandbagging thing. First, golf is a game of integrity and honor...the sandbagger has none. Second, a sandbagger KNOWS he didn't win...he knows he cheated...so what does he really get out of it? Whatever he gets, he knows he didn't earn it.

 

Sandbaggers should be immediately suspended from the club, and from all remaining tournaments for the rest of the season. And their names put on a bulletin board stating that they sandbagged.

 

They are the worse of worst. "People" like that ruin playing in tournaments for everyone.

 

One problem with calling them out. No one can prove the inflated rounds are truly inflated. Just like no one knows if a player takes a mulligan when playing as a single and doesn't count it. It's about character, and the sandbagger has none.

 

They are right up there with left-handers and their special clubs.

 

To a point. The USGA has made accommodations for "inflation", and anyone who checks the individuals HI can see it:

Section 10

Why is there an “R” after my Handicap Index®?

Q. Why is there an “R” after my Handicap Index?

A. A Handicap Index is displayed with an “R” (e.g. 10.4R) because two or more tournament scores have been posted within the past year that are at least three strokes better than the current Handicap Index based on the most recent twenty scores.

Tournament Scores (T-Scores) are kept for a minimum of one calendar year from when they are posted or longer if they are still within a player’s current 20-score history.

At each handicap revision the most recent twenty (20) scores as calculated are weighed against the average of the two best T-Score differentials, and if the difference of both T-Score differentials is at least three strokes lower than the Handicap Index (as calculated from the most recent 20 scores), the player is eligible for a reduction. A reduction (if necessary) is an automatic calculation of the handicap vendor or local computation software provider.

The club Handicap Committee has the authority to increase, decrease, or even remove the “R” if it feels the reduced Handicap Index does not accurately reflect the player’s potential ability. A Handicap Index intends to reflect potential ability, and this procedure enhances that likelihood. See the probability of shooting exceptional T-Scores here in

[n_rones]

Its not impossible but if its happening frequently I would say its fishy. One of my good friends who I play with a couple times a week is a legit 18 Handicap simply because he struggles to keep the ball in play and with putting but when he hits it well he can hit the ball a mile. While playing in a 4 man team tournament last summer he shot a legit 74 3 over par simply because he kept the ball in play all day long and putted better than I have ever seen him do. That being said I haven't seen him shoot anything close to that since and because of that round a couple rounds in the mid 80s his handicap dropped straight from an 18 to an 11 and he's gotten slaughtered in net tournaments ever since.

[PKennedy13]

The thing is that a decent amount of club golfers that are 15 handicaps are more like an 8. The only reason they are high is to get shots in money games. I'm. It saying that's all 15 handicaps but at least at my club that's a majority of them. Not trying to call anyone a cheater

[Guia]

I think it is very possible. Figure that a 17 HC is around bogey golf, that is not that bad of an average golfer. It won't happen often but is possible for him/her to break 80.

 

I have played 20 years with a man who is a 16 HC, and a couple of years ago saw him shoot an even par 72. Unreal, yes, but it did happen. It was not in tournament play, but he has broken 80 several times.

 

It isn't that hard to week out the sandbaggers, only use tournament scores.

[DavePelz4]

If we turned the thread 180 degrees and asked, "What are the chances a 5 HDCP shoots 17 over in a tournament" there would be few questions asked.

[Bad9]

The thing is that a decent amount of club golfers that are 15 handicaps are more like an 8. The only reason they are high is to get shots in money games. I'm. It saying that's all 15 handicaps but at least at my club that's a majority of them. Not trying to call anyone a cheater

 

What you have described is cheating.