What are the odds a 17 HC shoots 5 over in a tournament?

[PKennedy13]

The thing is that a decent amount of club golfers that are 15 handicaps are more like an 8. The only reason they are high is to get shots in money games. I'm. It saying that's all 15 handicaps but at least at my club that's a majority of them. Not trying to call anyone a cheater

 

What you have described is cheating.

you don't think it happens? Because I've seen it. Its happened to me

[Bad9]

If we turned the thread 180 degrees and asked, "What are the chances a 5 HDCP shoots 17 over in a tournament" there would be few questions asked.

 

This I have seen(and done :stinker: ) lots of times

[Bad9]

The thing is that a decent amount of club golfers that are 15 handicaps are more like an 8. The only reason they are high is to get shots in money games. I'm. It saying that's all 15 handicaps but at least at my club that's a majority of them. Not trying to call anyone a cheater

 

What you have described is cheating.

you don't think it happens? Because I've seen it. Its happened to me

 

Of course I think it happens. An 8 who claims to be a 15 to get shots is cheating. Period.

[Soloman1]

Apparently the odds are 1:1.

[PKennedy13]

The thing is that a decent amount of club golfers that are 15 handicaps are more like an 8. The only reason they are high is to get shots in money games. I'm. It saying that's all 15 handicaps but at least at my club that's a majority of them. Not trying to call anyone a cheater

 

What you have described is cheating.

you don't think it happens? Because I've seen it. Its happened to me

 

Of course I think it happens. An 8 who claims to be a 15 to get shots is cheating. Period.

i agree. I played in a money game and was the low guy in the group with 74. The "15" handicap was second by 2 shots and won all the money. How does a 15 handicap shoot 76. Then the next time he played he posted a crazy high number to keep it up. I can't stand that

[Shilgy]

The thing is that a decent amount of club golfers that are 15 handicaps are more like an 8. The only reason they are high is to get shots in money games. I'm. It saying that's all 15 handicaps but at least at my club that's a majority of them. Not trying to call anyone a cheater

 

What you have described is cheating.

you don't think it happens? Because I've seen it. Its happened to me

 

Of course I think it happens. An 8 who claims to be a 15 to get shots is cheating. Period.

i agree. I played in a money game and was the low guy in the group with 74. The "15" handicap was second by 2 shots and won all the money. How does a 15 handicap shoot 76. Then the next time he played he posted a crazy high number to keep it up. I can't stand that

And that is where you are wrong. The "crazy high" score does not balance it out as it will not be one of his 10 of 20 counting scores. As long as the 76 was posted it will affect his next revision. And those scores do happen. Funny how happy we are when we do it but pissed off and throw the cheating claims when it happens to someone else against us.

[Bad9]

And that is where you are wrong. The "crazy high" score does not balance it out as it will not be one of his 10 of 20 counting scores. As long as the 76 was posted it will affect his next revision. And those scores do happen. Funny how happy we are when we do it but pissed off and throw the cheating claims when it happens to someone else against us.

 

This is the part I don't get when these conversations come up or guys talk about their cap going up by 5-6 shots by playing a few poor rounds. If they are reporting all their scores, especially the good ones, it can't happen. The only way the 76 doesn't bring his cap down is if, as you said, it doesn't get entered and the next 5-6 poor rounds(or more) shouldn't affect it at all.

[GHIN n Juice]

If we turned the thread 180 degrees and asked, "What are the chances a 5 HDCP shoots 17 over in a tournament" there would be few questions asked.

 

I've done that too! 2 years ago. First day 74, second day 94. Was a 6 hcp.

[mizuno player]

Having a big swing in either direction in tournaments will get you an R handicap. Well, two rounds in a row anyway.

 

That R does not go away quickly either.

 

I think it should be changed to 1 round differential. It would catch more baggers. A good bagger knows that rule well.

 

 

[thug the bunny]

For our group's season which is about 15 events in a Stableford format, we're doing real-time, event only handicaps. Obviously a lot more volatility and it's reflective of how you're playing in the events as opposed to your entire season.

 

Not saying for a moment that this is the best or right approach just that we're going to try it and see what happens.

 

I think that might be the most logical way to mitigate hc bias. Each club should just use tournament scores to establish true handicaps. That would reduce the total number of entries per person, but it would still be more accurate than some 8 entering a 93 when he is just out practicing and trying different things.

[BEND OF THE RIVER GC]

Impossible.

[deadsolid...shank]

I will only say that in all fairness the 37,000-1 odds does mean it happens. Does not mean it's impossible.

In our Saturday game I recently shoot a 69 on a six cap. With the rating essentially at even par that was 9 under cap. Approximately a 30,000-1 occurrence. I have been low as a +1. For me it just means I'm still comfortable shooting a low score. Unfortunately it does not happen often anymore.

 

Better not post that in the 4 handicap vs the LPGA'er.?

[tatertot]

If we turned the thread 180 degrees and asked, "What are the chances a 5 HDCP shoots 17 over in a tournament" there would be few questions asked.

 

Yes ... But Steph Curry went 0-7 from beyond the arc in a game this year. Shaquille O'Neal never went 7-7.

[thug the bunny]

If we turned the thread 180 degrees and asked, "What are the chances a 5 HDCP shoots 17 over in a tournament" there would be few questions asked.

 

Yes ... But Steph Curry went 0-7 from beyond the arc in a game this year. Shaquille O'Neal never went 7-7.

 

Things that make you go, hmmmmm.....

[DeacLaw05]

Played in my club's member guest last year with a partner playing to a 10 (I'm a 9). We end up in the 3rd flight. Playing a best ball format. We shoot a 74 on the first day, one shot out of the lead. Play pretty well again the second day (when the $ will be paid out from the pari mutual betting) and shoot 75. I think we have a decent chance to win the flight and about $500. Come in to find that the leaders from the day before have posted 67, which was the second best score posted by any team regardless of flight over the two days of play.

 

Thinking that something funny was going on, we start checking GHIN numbers. Sure enough, the other guys were flighted properly for the scores they posted. However, the guest in that group just happened to be a member at the club my partner and I grew up playing. And a friend of ours from high school just happens to be the head pro there now. So we call him up and ask if the guy's posted handicap is legit. Come to find the guy shoots around 73-74 on a regular basis, but doesn't post the scores--a sandbagger in the truest sense of the word. Nothing we could do about it but badmouth them to everyone possible for the rest of the weekend. Told our pro about it so their handicaps would receive additional scrutiny in the future.

[nsxguy]

If we turned the thread 180 degrees and asked, "What are the chances a 5 HDCP shoots 17 over in a tournament" there would be few questions asked.

 

That's because no one would care !!! :rofl:

[Shilgy]

I will only say that in all fairness the 37,000-1 odds does mean it happens. Does not mean it's impossible.

In our Saturday game I recently shoot a 69 on a six cap. With the rating essentially at even par that was 9 under cap. Approximately a 30,000-1 occurrence. I have been low as a +1. For me it just means I'm still comfortable shooting a low score. Unfortunately it does not happen often anymore.

 

Better not post that in the 4 handicap vs the LPGA'er.?

They would kick my rear.

[nsxguy]

And that is where you are wrong. The "crazy high" score does not balance it out as it will not be one of his 10 of 20 counting scores. As long as the 76 was posted it will affect his next revision. And those scores do happen. Funny how happy we are when we do it but pissed off and throw the cheating claims when it happens to someone else against us.

 

This is the part I don't get when these conversations come up or guys talk about their cap going up by 5-6 shots by playing a few poor rounds. If they are reporting all their scores, especially the good ones, it can't happen. The only way the 76 doesn't bring his cap down is if, as you said, it doesn't get entered and the next 5-6 poor rounds(or more) shouldn't affect it at all.

 

Well, that's not the only way it doesn't bring his 'cap down. In fact, the 76 could actually bring his handicap UP.

 

Remember, only the last 20 rounds count. If the 20th round, immediately before the 76, was say, 72, his 'cap would actually go UP after the 76 was entered.

 

*Note - we're talking scores but I'm sure everybody realizes handicaps are based on round differentials. Scores are easier to relate to,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Having a big swing in either direction in tournaments will get you an R handicap. Well, two rounds in a row anyway.

 

That R does not go away quickly either.

 

I think it should be changed to 1 round differential. It would catch more baggers. A good bagger knows that rule well.

 

Either direction ? I think not. The "R" stands for "Reduction". One's handicap is only reduced downward.

 

And it's not 2 rounds in a row. It's 2 best tournament rounds (I believe in the previous 12 months but I could be mistaken)

 

And it's probably (at least) 2 rounds simply because of the possibility of a "fluke" round.

[Shilgy]

And that is where you are wrong. The "crazy high" score does not balance it out as it will not be one of his 10 of 20 counting scores. As long as the 76 was posted it will affect his next revision. And those scores do happen. Funny how happy we are when we do it but pissed off and throw the cheating claims when it happens to someone else against us.

 

This is the part I don't get when these conversations come up or guys talk about their cap going up by 5-6 shots by playing a few poor rounds. If they are reporting all their scores, especially the good ones, it can't happen. The only way the 76 doesn't bring his cap down is if, as you said, it doesn't get entered and the next 5-6 poor rounds(or more) shouldn't affect it at all.

Or if he is replacing another 76.

 

Edit nsx hit post ahead of me ? and he's correct. A 76 could make his index go up depending on what score is coming off his last 20.

[Bad9]

And that is where you are wrong. The "crazy high" score does not balance it out as it will not be one of his 10 of 20 counting scores. As long as the 76 was posted it will affect his next revision. And those scores do happen. Funny how happy we are when we do it but pissed off and throw the cheating claims when it happens to someone else against us.

 

This is the part I don't get when these conversations come up or guys talk about their cap going up by 5-6 shots by playing a few poor rounds. If they are reporting all their scores, especially the good ones, it can't happen. The only way the 76 doesn't bring his cap down is if, as you said, it doesn't get entered and the next 5-6 poor rounds(or more) shouldn't affect it at all.

 

Well, that's not the only way it doesn't bring his 'cap down. In fact, the 76 could actually bring his handicap UP.

 

Remember, only the last 20 rounds count. If the 20th round, immediately before the 76, was say, 72, his 'cap would actually go UP after the 76 was entered.

 

*Note - we're talking scores but I'm sure everybody realizes handicaps are based on round differentials. Scores are easier to relate to,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Having a big swing in either direction in tournaments will get you an R handicap. Well, two rounds in a row anyway.

 

That R does not go away quickly either.

 

I think it should be changed to 1 round differential. It would catch more baggers. A good bagger knows that rule well.

 

Either direction ? I think not. The "R" stands for "Reduction". One's handicap is only reduced downward.

 

And it's not 2 rounds in a row. It's 2 best tournament rounds (I believe in the previous 12 months but I could be mistaken)

 

And it's probably (at least) 2 rounds simply because of the possibility of a "fluke" round.

 

Point well taken. In the situation described by the OP it's unlikely though.

[BIG STU]

Most are cheaters and they know it, BUT i have seen a few legit guys do stuff like that.

 

One guy was a 4 or 5 cap and got the $hanks real bad from about 2 years. He went up to and 18+. But he would have little spurts where $hank free games would happen and he would shoot is good old mid/low 70's. He was a classy guy though and would not go into events or bet given how wild his scoring could be.

 

if you are an 18 that used to be low capper these things happen. But NEVER if you are a solid 18.

 

ACTUALLY....true story.

 

I took a group of golfers from my club to a pro-am: a 25, a 19, and a 12.

 

The 19 thinned his 3rd shot on a par 5 (you guessed it...it went in for a 3, net 1)

 

A few holes later, short par 4....he drove the front fringe of the green, the pin is at least 70' at the back of the green.....

 

Walloped his putt, and you guessed it again....hits the pin and drops for a 2....net 1.

 

Now, I played with these guys for over 2 years, and recorded all their scores when they played on their home course, where I was Asst Pro, and they were as honest as the day is long.

 

Forget the fact that the 19...the guy with 2 net 1's.....shot about about 95 that day....including his 2 miracle shots....we were called cheats and liars for the rest of the year.

 

So....it does happen, and I happened to be a witness to it that day.

 

Imagine...the 2 birdies that I shot on those 2 holes didn't even count towards our team score!

 

but....it doesn't happen week in and week out

That is like last December in a annual charity scramble that is so big it is played over 2 courses. We play in it every year because it is for a great cause and the pro that puts it on is one of the members I play with in the "Miura Mafia" group. The 2 teams that won were part of their group. I had members of my other group which we call the "New York Boys" in it. Now with the format those guys won with some amazing scores. I remember some grumbling amongst the losers as usual. Now it ticked me off because the Mafia bunch are friends of mine and I can vouch about each and every ones intregrity. I pointed out to some of the grumblers that the one team the highest handicapper on that team was a 1 hdcp the rest were scratch or better. One of the losers grumbled oh a bunch of pros. I told him no on the contrary they are all amateur golfers and play Carolinas Golf Association events. The other team that won on the other course had the two top Super Senior Amateur players in the state that play CGA events. Those two Super Senior guys carry a 1 or 2 hdcp from the senior tees. I left the event after that skipping the dinner because the "losers" had ticked me off with their comments. They started griping about stacked teams. I told the one idiot well it is bring your own team like everyone else did. Put you together a team of ringers next year. I decided to leave because I know me and I have been controlling my temper the last 10 years or so and this was too damn much for me. Besides my old man told me "never argue with an idiot" (this is cleaned up from his original statement I do not want to get kicked off here for his true statement) Heck so many guys are involved in the prizes etc that they forgot the real reason for the event to help some needy kids at Christmas and to play golf and have fun. In fact I had side bets with the 2 winning teams getting 3 shots a side and lost. Not a whole lot but the guys I bet donated the money to the charity as I would have done.

[Ferguson]

Most are cheaters and they know it, BUT i have seen a few legit guys do stuff like that.

 

One guy was a 4 or 5 cap and got the $hanks real bad from about 2 years. He went up to and 18+. But he would have little spurts where $hank free games would happen and he would shoot is good old mid/low 70's. He was a classy guy though and would not go into events or bet given how wild his scoring could be.

 

if you are an 18 that used to be low capper these things happen. But NEVER if you are a solid 18.

 

ACTUALLY....true story.

 

I took a group of golfers from my club to a pro-am: a 25, a 19, and a 12.

 

The 19 thinned his 3rd shot on a par 5 (you guessed it...it went in for a 3, net 1)

 

A few holes later, short par 4....he drove the front fringe of the green, the pin is at least 70' at the back of the green.....

 

Walloped his putt, and you guessed it again....hits the pin and drops for a 2....net 1.

 

Now, I played with these guys for over 2 years, and recorded all their scores when they played on their home course, where I was Asst Pro, and they were as honest as the day is long.

 

Forget the fact that the 19...the guy with 2 net 1's.....shot about about 95 that day....including his 2 miracle shots....we were called cheats and liars for the rest of the year.

 

So....it does happen, and I happened to be a witness to it that day.

 

Imagine...the 2 birdies that I shot on those 2 holes didn't even count towards our team score!

 

but....it doesn't happen week in and week out

That is like last December in a annual charity scramble that is so big it is played over 2 courses. We play in it every year because it is for a great cause and the pro that puts it on is one of the members I play with in the "Miura Mafia" group. The 2 teams that won were part of their group. I had members of my other group which we call the "New York Boys" in it. Now with the format those guys won with some amazing scores. I remember some grumbling amongst the losers as usual. Now it ticked me off because the Mafia bunch are friends of mine and I can vouch about each and every ones intregrity. I pointed out to some of the grumblers that the one team the highest handicapper on that team was a 1 hdcp the rest were scratch or better. One of the losers grumbled oh a bunch of pros. I told him no on the contrary they are all amateur golfers and play Carolinas Golf Association events. The other team that won on the other course had the two top Super Senior Amateur players in the state that play CGA events. Those two Super Senior guys carry a 1 or 2 hdcp from the senior tees. I left the event after that skipping the dinner because the "losers" had ticked me off with their comments. They started griping about stacked teams. I told the one idiot well it is bring your own team like everyone else did. Put you together a team of ringers next year. I decided to leave because I know me and I have been controlling my temper the last 10 years or so and this was too damn much for me. Besides my old man told me "never argue with an idiot" (this is cleaned up from his original statement I do not want to get kicked off here for his true statement) Heck so many guys are involved in the prizes etc that they forgot the real reason for the event to help some needy kids at Christmas and to play golf and have fun. In fact I had side bets with the 2 winning teams getting 3 shots a side and lost. Not a whole lot but the guys I bet donated the money to the charity as I would have done.

 

 

SIC'EM, Stu. Get em!!

[nsxguy]

There are about 4 guys in my men's club that always seem to shoot miracle rounds in tournaments and take big $ in the games. I've only been in the club for about 3 years. I only play about 4 a year. But I see all the results of all the tourney's because they send them out to the members.

 

After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice. And that I'm not paying into side games anymore until it's addressed. Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament. Just a few weeks back he shot 104! And another guy with similar posted scores over 100, an 18 HC shoots 81. The are among a group of guys it seems to be a trend with.

 

I've played with these guys because I'm a 15, so we go out in the same groups and I post ALL my scores, so I know I'm a legit 15. And these dudes are not being honest. Ruins it for everybody else.

 

The odds say some strange things happen on the golf course every single day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

As someone else here on WRX pointed out, if the 465,000,000 rounds played per year in the USA is accurate, that means it happens, on average, some 1,100 times PER DAY.

 

 

 

Either direction ? I think not. The "R" stands for "Reduction". One's handicap is only reduced downward.

 

And it's not 2 rounds in a row. It's 2 best tournament rounds (I believe in the previous 12 months but I could be mistaken)

 

And it's probably (at least) 2 rounds simply because of the possibility of a "fluke" round.

 

Point well taken. In the situation described by the OP it's unlikely though.

 

Unfortunately the OP didn't state his case very well. His story mostly comes off as the usual sour grapes king of story.

 

e.g. After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice.

 

I don't see anything about the answer - or will he get back to us ?

 

and

 

Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament.

 

This dude sound like a perfect candidate for an "R" (Reduction). Wonder why it never seemed to happen ? Haf a story ?

 

Of course, maybe his Handicap Chairman/Committee just doesn't care ?

[youraway2]

In the UK, there is the ability for the handicap committee to apply an "exceptional scoring reduction", on top of the normal scoring adjustments, in the event that someone repeatedly plays significantly better than their handicap, and this usually puts a stop to this sort of thing.

 

Same in the US, Handicap Committee can impose a "M" reduction.

[youraway2]

There are about 4 guys in my men's club that always seem to shoot miracle rounds in tournaments and take big $ in the games. I've only been in the club for about 3 years. I only play about 4 a year. But I see all the results of all the tourney's because they send them out to the members.

 

After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice. And that I'm not paying into side games anymore until it's addressed. Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament. Just a few weeks back he shot 104! And another guy with similar posted scores over 100, an 18 HC shoots 81. The are among a group of guys it seems to be a trend with.

 

I've played with these guys because I'm a 15, so we go out in the same groups and I post ALL my scores, so I know I'm a legit 15. And these dudes are not being honest. Ruins it for everybody else.

 

The odds say some strange things happen on the golf course every single day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

As someone else here on WRX pointed out, if the 465,000,000 rounds played per year in the USA is accurate, that means it happens, on average, some 1,100 times PER DAY.

 

 

 

Either direction ? I think not. The "R" stands for "Reduction". One's handicap is only reduced downward.

 

And it's not 2 rounds in a row. It's 2 best tournament rounds (I believe in the previous 12 months but I could be mistaken)

 

And it's probably (at least) 2 rounds simply because of the possibility of a "fluke" round.

 

Point well taken. In the situation described by the OP it's unlikely though.

 

Unfortunately the OP didn't state his case very well. His story mostly comes off as the usual sour grapes king of story.

 

e.g. After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice.

 

I don't see anything about the answer - or will he get back to us ?

 

and

 

Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament.

 

This dude sound like a perfect candidate for an "R" (Reduction). Wonder why it never seemed to happen ? Haf a story ?

 

Of course, maybe his Handicap Chairman/Committee just doesn't care ?

 

"R" reduction is generated by the GHIN system when comparing the lowest tournament scores with recently posted scores. It is an automatic function of the program. Th Handicap Committee can intervene and adjust the players handicap index manually "M".

[nsxguy]

Either direction ? I think not. The "R" stands for "Reduction". One's handicap is only reduced downward.

 

And it's not 2 rounds in a row. It's 2 best tournament rounds (I believe in the previous 12 months but I could be mistaken)

 

And it's probably (at least) 2 rounds simply because of the possibility of a "fluke" round.

 

Point well taken. In the situation described by the OP it's unlikely though.

 

Unfortunately the OP didn't state his case very well. His story mostly comes off as the usual sour grapes king of story.

 

e.g. After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice.

 

I don't see anything about the answer - or will he get back to us ?

 

and

 

Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament.

 

This dude sound like a perfect candidate for an "R" (Reduction). Wonder why it never seemed to happen ? Haf a story ?

 

Of course, maybe his Handicap Chairman/Committee just doesn't care ?

 

"R" reduction is generated by the GHIN system when comparing the lowest tournament scores with recently posted scores. It is an automatic function of the program. Th Handicap Committee can intervene and adjust the players handicap index manually "M".

 

Understood. That's why I wondered why it didn't happen. Seems to me this happens at the OP's club too often. Strange.

[Dan Drake]

Most are cheaters and they know it, BUT i have seen a few legit guys do stuff like that.

 

One guy was a 4 or 5 cap and got the $hanks real bad from about 2 years. He went up to and 18+. But he would have little spurts where $hank free games would happen and he would shoot is good old mid/low 70's. He was a classy guy though and would not go into events or bet given how wild his scoring could be.

 

if you are an 18 that used to be low capper these things happen. But NEVER if you are a solid 18.

 

The last line in this is such a good point because it can depend on what type of golfer you used to be.

 

There was a legit 7 at my last club who shot a 69 and everyone was crying about it. But here's the thing. He was the handicap chairperson. He played (no lie) 320+ rounds a year and posted every single one. He was often really dodgy on short putts, leaving 4'ers short on regular occasion. AND he used to be a scratch handicap.

 

So, much like the gentleman in your example, if one little thing goes right (the short putts in this example, the shanks in yours) all day, this golfer can shoot low. Combine that with the fact that these guys have shots low scores many, many times before in their lives and are comfortable in that scoring range, and it isn't that far fetched, but it is rare. That 69 was his best round in 4 years, so he had played well over 1,000 rounds as a 5-7 cap to shoot that one score.

 

Let's face it, quite a few handicaps are dishonest, one way or another.

[jusme]

Last Saturday our competition was won by a 28 cap who posted a score 15 shots better than his handicap. Showed nothing remotely close to this in the last several weeks. Raised a few eyebrows lol

[bbfifas]

I have never witnessed a member blatantly cheating. I do see people 'give' some generous putts here and there but other than that no foot wedges or anything of the like. I just recently played a member guest and it was best ball format with 90% handicaps in play. There was skins throughout for net and gross and prize money for winning your flight. We played 3 9hole matches and the winner of each flight (12 flights) then played in a 3 hole shamble playoff for the grand champion. The last 3 years one of the higher handicap groups wins the whole thing. But the money is spread out and a lot of different ways to win so sandbagging is somewhat reduced.

[Scooterboy59]

I think people who play to handicaps that are false, are the same as a thief. I don't understand why anyone would do this. If your really a 8-10 and your posting fake scores to get it up to 17-20, you suck as a person!! It is up to the staff at a club to police this type of stuff. I hate the bust out rules but it work most of the time. Guys can a have the stars Aline and shoot a great score once a year, but really every time they play in a tournament. Come on.