What are the odds a 17 HC shoots 5 over in a tournament?

[JMSAGE]

Handicaps are based off your lowest scores. So technically you shouldn't shoot your handicap often in reality. In a proper league scores should always be posted to the handicap system in any individual event it only takes a few scores to change your handicap a bit. If you are still having bagging issues we've adjusted people's handicap to be only based off tournament scores. We've had a guy in our club go from a 20 to a 10 in a half season.

[nsxguy]

Shouldn't happen at all. Unless you're playing a par 72 course with a course rating of 62 or something.... Then sure.

 

Other than that, a TRUE 17 handicap should shoot about 98 or 99 once in every 3 or 4 rounds, that's his potential.

Catches lightning in a bottle? Sure... maybe he puts up a 92

5 over?? No $%@#**@ way.

 

Edit: I wouldn't be too worried about this after thinking about it again, because assuming he posted that score properly, he'll now be a 13 index on the 15th at midnight.

Your close. Most players will shoot their handicap- or better- once every three or four rounds. We average or handicap on our best 10 of 20.

Actually rereading your post why would a 17 only shoot 26 or 27 over once every three or four rounds. I think you meant 88-89. Not 98-99

Correct on the typos, multi-tasking... edited.

 

I think the real key is they shoot their handicap once every three or four rounds, which is their potential. If they do shoot "better" than their handicap, which you said they can, in that one round out of every 3 or 4, it should be by a stroke, or maybe a few.... not by 12.

 

If I played with anybody who put up a net 60 or better on me, I'd never play with them with more than a dollar on the line.

 

Shilgy my friend. Nice try but some guys will just never get it.

 

 

JJH,

 

You, my friend, will probably NEVER shoot a net better than about 67. That doesn't mean it's impossible that a 17 won't post a net 60. At about a "5", my best differential EVER has been a +2, approximately 7 shots better than my HC Index at the time. The lower your handicap th eless likely you net is to go really low.

 

You shouldn't even be playing those guys with any expectation of winning.

 

The lower your handicap the less likelihood of a really low net. You and I will most likely NEVER see a net anywhere near 60.

 

As posted in an earlier link there is a USGA chart of odds against shooting low net scores. As I tried to point out earlier, first of all these charts represents DIFFERENTIALS, NOT net scores.

 

e.g. this particular 5 over 17 HC guy. If the course rating was 70 and the slope was about average, say 116 or so his differential would be about 10. Odds = 37,000 to 1. Drop that just ONE (more ?) shot and the odds are 1 TENTH of that.

 

But even at 37000-1, with an average of over 4,000,000 rounds played PER DAY, that mean it happens, on average, over 1,100 times PER DAY.

 

1 shot less, differential of 9, at 3700-1 and it happens on average 11,000 times PER DAY.

 

And if you think a 17 HC index will be a 13 after 1 differential of (in this case) 8 or 9, you better brush up on your basic math skills - either that or you have no idea how indexes are calculated.

 

 

 

A little exaggeration on my point of someone being bumped down to a 13, but I think you get the point.... As someone who works in the industry, I fully understand thoroughly how the system works.

I should have just phrased it this way from the start in my initial post: According to the USGA, no, a 17 should not shoot 5 over. That's such a huge differential, even on an modest-length course with an average rating/slope....

If they do, are they really, honestly, legitimately, a true 17 handicap?

I mean we might as well start another piggy-back thread: Can an 8 handicap shoot a 69? Sure why not.

 

Well, I did expect your suggestion of his dropping down 4 points on 1 round was an "exaggeration for effect",,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

But, you seem to have conveniently ignored the obvious. How do you account for the fact that the USGA's number crunching suggests it happens 1,100 time PER DAY ? Based on this post of yours it sounds like you're suggesting it can't happen.

 

I don't understand how someone, especially someone "in the industry", can say the USGA says "a 17 should not shoot 5 over". Then again, (you tricky little devil you ?) I guess that's right. At 37,000-1 a player SHOULDN'T shoot 5 over - but clearly it does happen. With regularity.

[Shilgy]

Shouldn't happen at all. Unless you're playing a par 72 course with a course rating of 62 or something.... Then sure.

 

Other than that, a TRUE 17 handicap should shoot about 98 or 99 once in every 3 or 4 rounds, that's his potential.

Catches lightning in a bottle? Sure... maybe he puts up a 92

5 over?? No $%@#**@ way.

 

Edit: I wouldn't be too worried about this after thinking about it again, because assuming he posted that score properly, he'll now be a 13 index on the 15th at midnight.

Your close. Most players will shoot their handicap- or better- once every three or four rounds. We average or handicap on our best 10 of 20.

Actually rereading your post why would a 17 only shoot 26 or 27 over once every three or four rounds. I think you meant 88-89. Not 98-99

Correct on the typos, multi-tasking... edited.

 

I think the real key is they shoot their handicap once every three or four rounds, which is their potential. If they do shoot "better" than their handicap, which you said they can, in that one round out of every 3 or 4, it should be by a stroke, or maybe a few.... not by 12.

 

If I played with anybody who put up a net 60 or better on me, I'd never play with them with more than a dollar on the line.

 

Shilgy my friend. Nice try but some guys will just never get it.

 

 

JJH,

 

You, my friend, will probably NEVER shoot a net better than about 67. That doesn't mean it's impossible that a 17 won't post a net 60. At about a "5", my best differential EVER has been a +2, approximately 7 shots better than my HC Index at the time. The lower your handicap th eless likely you net is to go really low.

 

You shouldn't even be playing those guys with any expectation of winning.

 

The lower your handicap the less likelihood of a really low net. You and I will most likely NEVER see a net anywhere near 60.

 

As posted in an earlier link there is a USGA chart of odds against shooting low net scores. As I tried to point out earlier, first of all these charts represents DIFFERENTIALS, NOT net scores.

 

e.g. this particular 5 over 17 HC guy. If the course rating was 70 and the slope was about average, say 116 or so his differential would be about 10. Odds = 37,000 to 1. Drop that just ONE (more ?) shot and the odds are 1 TENTH of that.

 

But even at 37000-1, with an average of over 4,000,000 rounds played PER DAY, that mean it happens, on average, over 1,100 times PER DAY.

 

1 shot less, differential of 9, at 3700-1 and it happens on average 11,000 times PER DAY.

 

And if you think a 17 HC index will be a 13 after 1 differential of (in this case) 8 or 9, you better brush up on your basic math skills - either that or you have no idea how indexes are calculated.

 

 

 

A little exaggeration on my point of someone being bumped down to a 13, but I think you get the point.... As someone who works in the industry, I fully understand thoroughly how the system works.

I should have just phrased it this way from the start in my initial post: According to the USGA, no, a 17 should not shoot 5 over. That's such a huge differential, even on an modest-length course with an average rating/slope....

If they do, are they really, honestly, legitimately, a true 17 handicap?

I mean we might as well start another piggy-back thread: Can an 8 handicap shoot a 69? Sure why not.

A six at the time did recently, me.

[nsxguy]

Handicaps are based off your lowest scores. So technically you shouldn't shoot your handicap often in reality. In a proper league scores should always be posted to the handicap system in any individual event it only takes a few scores to change your handicap a bit. If you are still having bagging issues we've adjusted people's handicap to be only based off tournament scores. We've had a guy in our club go from a 20 to a 10 in a half season.

 

Tournament scores are entered as "T" scores and are accounted for in GHIN software (there's a strict formula for adjustments). If the guy is shooting 85s all over the place and in tournaments is posting 75s the system will adjust him/her. And Committees, if they're paying attention, have the ultimate power.

 

Players showing marked improvement such as 20 to 10 are unusual but it does happen. The USGA Handicapping Manual suggests it happens with beginners who learn quickly. It also happens with players with the same high handicap for a long time who suddenly decide to take lessons. These players can show significant improvement in a fairly short time. They should enjoy it while they can because as I'm sure you're aware, handicaps go down much faster than they go up.

 

Handicaps are an average of your 10 best out of your last 20 (differentials). So half of your scores create your handicap index. Since it's an average of those 10 best, it stands to reason that roughly half of those should be somewhere at or below your index.

 

In the relatively short time I've been observing my own handicap it seems that between 2 and 4 of my last 20 (depending on how much lower the best ones are) are at or below my index. Now I don't know if you'd consider that "not often" but,,,,,,,,,,,,

[BigSky59]

As a 6, what was the rating of the tees you shot 69 from?

 

Out of interest, I'm going to contact the USGA on this tomorrow and see what they think. I'd love to hear their take

[nsxguy]

As a 6, what was the rating of the tees you shot 69 from?

 

Out of interest, I'm going to contact the USGA on this tomorrow and see what they think. I'd love to hear their take

 

Ahhhhh, you're talking to Shilgy - shoulda quoted him.

 

I didn't think I posted about it.

 

But I will. :) About 4 years ago, as a 5 (or 6, I forget). I shot an ESC 69 (actually 70 with a triple), a differential of ~ +3 at Grossinger's in New York. White tees, 72.8/133. So a "net" differential of 8 better than my index.

 

Considering the triple, EASILY my best round ever except possibly for a 73 I once shot at Bethpage Black, white tees, 73.1/140. Don't remember my 'cap at that time but it must've been around 7 or 8, maybe a tetch higher, so a differential of ~0 and a difference of about 8. Then again, I'd played somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 rounds on BB; maybe 40 career rounds at Grossinger's.

 

Have had a handful of differentials of about 6 better than my index over 30+ years but all at my relatively easy and short home course.

[BigSky59]

As a 6, what was the rating of the tees you shot 69 from?

 

Out of interest, I'm going to contact the USGA on this tomorrow and see what they think. I'd love to hear their take

 

Ahhhhh, you're talking to Shilgy - shoulda quoted him.

 

I didn't think I posted about it.

 

But I will. :) About 4 years ago, as a 5 (or 6, I forget). I shot an ESC 69 (actually 70 with a triple), a differential of ~ +3 at Grossinger's in New York. White tees, 72.8/133. So a "net" differential of 8 better than my index.

 

Considering the triple, EASILY my best round ever except possibly for a 73 I once shot at Bethpage Black, white tees, 73.1/140. Don't remember my 'cap at that time but it must've been around 7 or 8, maybe a tetch higher, so a differential of ~0 and a difference of about 8. Then again, I'd played somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 rounds on BB; maybe 40 career rounds at Grossinger's.

 

Have had a handful of differentials of about 6 better than my index over 30+ years but all at my relatively easy and short home course.

 

I wouldn't consider those scores (your example scores) out of the realm of possible.... They're much closer to realistic than the thread title's scenario given how much more control you'll have over your game as a 5 handicap, vs. a 17. I assume your rounds were played as casual golf rounds and not as tournament rounds?

 

Being a lower handicap, you're bound to make WAY fewer mistakes than a 17 handicap. Not to mention your mistakes are typically much less severe or penal. I'm following what you're saying, I'll still add that 12 strokes under a handicap in a tournament is a completely different ballpark than 8 strokes under in another round, similar to your example. We can call it what it is, at the end of the day, if 1,100 people a day are shooting that far under their handicap, maybe some adjustments need to be made to the system.

[nsxguy]

As a 6, what was the rating of the tees you shot 69 from?

 

Out of interest, I'm going to contact the USGA on this tomorrow and see what they think. I'd love to hear their take

 

Ahhhhh, you're talking to Shilgy - shoulda quoted him.

 

I didn't think I posted about it.

 

But I will. :) About 4 years ago, as a 5 (or 6, I forget). I shot an ESC 69 (actually 70 with a triple), a differential of ~ +3 at Grossinger's in New York. White tees, 72.8/133. So a "net" differential of 8 better than my index.

 

Considering the triple, EASILY my best round ever except possibly for a 73 I once shot at Bethpage Black, white tees, 73.1/140. Don't remember my 'cap at that time but it must've been around 7 or 8, maybe a tetch higher, so a differential of ~0 and a difference of about 8. Then again, I'd played somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 rounds on BB; maybe 40 career rounds at Grossinger's.

 

Have had a handful of differentials of about 6 better than my index over 30+ years but all at my relatively easy and short home course.

 

I wouldn't consider those scores (your example scores) out of the realm of possible.... They're much closer to realistic than the thread title's scenario given how much more control you'll have over your game as a 5 handicap, vs. a 17. I assume your rounds were played as casual golf rounds and not as tournament rounds?

 

Being a lower handicap, you're bound to make WAY fewer mistakes than a 17 handicap. Not to mention your mistakes are typically much less severe or penal. I'm following what you're saying, I'll still add that 12 strokes under a handicap in a tournament is a completely different ballpark than 8 strokes under in another round, similar to your example. We can call it what it is, at the end of the day, if 1,100 people a day are shooting that far under their handicap, maybe some adjustments need to be made to the system.

 

The BB was a casual round. The Grossinger's was a club team event. Tournament round ? Probably not according to the USGA but according to our club, yes.

 

So according to the chart in the opening post, http://oga.org/sites/default/files/Probability%20Table.pdf my Grossinger's round would have been either 8 or 9 shots better differential. According to that USGA chart, I'd have been somewhere between 20,000 and 48000 to 1 to shoot that differential; somewhere between this 17 shooting 5 over (again, we don't know his actual differential, just his score to par).

 

And according to the chart it is far easier for a higher handicapper to have a "career round" than a lower handicapper - same reason you (and I for that matter) shouldn't be playing against a field containing a LOT of high handicappers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[wmblake2000]

The club I play in only uses tournament scores as basis of index. Seems pretty valid.

[North Texas]

Frustrating. If it hadn't during regular league days I can believe it, but when it only happens on tournament days, he's clearly sandbagging. I have seen both sides though...

 

Two years ago I played to a 16 in my league and played a couple rounds that were low 80's. My lowest of the year though was our 3 club challenge where I shot an even 80 (par 72) without a putter. Flash in the pan round where I was deadly with my 7 and one putted half the holes with my 52.

 

Last year I played to a 10 and made our league championship against an olfer guy who played to 27-30. Our championship is set up where the rest of the league follows the championship match and gets to watch (multiple scorecards are kept). For whatever reason the guy I was playing decided not to count 15 of his strokes and it wasn't noticed until the round was over, luckily I bet him anyways so the 15 strokes didn't matter. But it was unusual he tried to cheat in front of the whole league.

 

The best though was a guys trip I was on. 16 of us, all varies handicaps. The second day was 18 holes stroke play, winner was determined by net to make it fair. One guy in my group was a casual golfer and played closer to a 30 that weekend. The front he opened up with a 60. The back he played the 9 holes of his life and shot a 36! A 36! Most unbelievable thing I ever saw. Guy didn't shoot better than a 50 over 9 for the rest of the 3 days.

 

Golf is a funny game

 

Jaymayor just told everyone why it is absolutely possible for someone to shoot significantly better than their handicap. I don't care what the odds are supposed to be.

 

Golf being a funny game is why 2 years ago I shot a 1 under par 71 on a course with a course rating of 71, albeit in a casual round. As a 10 handicapper.

[BigSky59]

The club I play in only uses tournament scores as basis of index. Seems pretty valid.

This method is used a lot in Europe is well. I think it's one of the better ways to go.

[Shilgy]

As a 6, what was the rating of the tees you shot 69 from?

 

Out of interest, I'm going to contact the USGA on this tomorrow and see what they think. I'd love to hear their take

71.6 I was a 5.1 at the time and the score differential was -2.1. So 7 below index. 1-1500 to 1-2000 based on the tables.

[Shilgy]

As a 6, what was the rating of the tees you shot 69 from?

 

Out of interest, I'm going to contact the USGA on this tomorrow and see what they think. I'd love to hear their take

 

Ahhhhh, you're talking to Shilgy - shoulda quoted him.

 

I didn't think I posted about it.

 

But I will. :) About 4 years ago, as a 5 (or 6, I forget). I shot an ESC 69 (actually 70 with a triple), a differential of ~ +3 at Grossinger's in New York. White tees, 72.8/133. So a "net" differential of 8 better than my index.

 

Considering the triple, EASILY my best round ever except possibly for a 73 I once shot at Bethpage Black, white tees, 73.1/140. Don't remember my 'cap at that time but it must've been around 7 or 8, maybe a tetch higher, so a differential of ~0 and a difference of about 8. Then again, I'd played somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 rounds on BB; maybe 40 career rounds at Grossinger's.

 

Have had a handful of differentials of about 6 better than my index over 30+ years but all at my relatively easy and short home course.

 

I wouldn't consider those scores (your example scores) out of the realm of possible.... They're much closer to realistic than the thread title's scenario given how much more control you'll have over your game as a 5 handicap, vs. a 17. I assume your rounds were played as casual golf rounds and not as tournament rounds?

 

Being a lower handicap, you're bound to make WAY fewer mistakes than a 17 handicap. Not to mention your mistakes are typically much less severe or penal. I'm following what you're saying, I'll still add that 12 strokes under a handicap in a tournament is a completely different ballpark than 8 strokes under in another round, similar to your example. We can call it what it is, at the end of the day, if 1,100 people a day are shooting that far under their handicap, maybe some adjustments need to be made to the system.

 

The BB was a casual round. The Grossinger's was a club team event. Tournament round ? Probably not according to the USGA but according to our club, yes.

 

So according to the chart in the opening post, http://oga.org/sites...lity Table.pdf my Grossinger's round would have been either 8 or 9 shots better differential. According to that USGA chart, I'd have been somewhere between 20,000 and 48000 to 1 to shoot that differential; somewhere between this 17 shooting 5 over (again, we don't know his actual differential, just his score to par).

 

And according to the chart it is far easier for a higher handicapper to have a "career round" than a lower handicapper - same reason you (and I for that matter) shouldn't be playing against a field containing a LOT of high handicappers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Yeah-taken to the extreme a 5.9 index or less will shoot a differential 10 strokes or better than their index 1-125,000 rounds. A 31 or higher index will do the same 10 strokes or better 1-874. Just a bit of a difference! :)

[DavePelz4]

We're talking about situations with 1 in 32,000 odds.

 

How about the Powerball with odds of 1 in 292,201,338? Somebody wins that regularly.

[llewol007]

Actually it should be a black eye on your club and the members. People break rules only when they know they can get away with it and in tournaments where the same guys choose to play with the same guys, it can happen. Change the format and have the tournaments randomly choose the playing partners for everyday of the tournament. Only way in my opinion that you can get some honest play out of people. That is if the leadership has enough golfBALLS to put into effect.

[Flames20]

We had a member who for a few years won at a very high rate on men's night and in member tournaments. Pretty much every member regarded him as a sandbagger. Finally enough guys complained, and our new handicap person looked into it. He went back 3 years worth of scores and found that this particular member never once broke his handicap in rounds that didn't involve prizes. On the other hand he broke his hdcp 80% of the time when prizes were involved. This is over 3 years. His handicap was reduced from 14 to 9 to reflect his "money" scores. Needless to say he was furious, although the membership was quite happy. He won nothing the rest of the year and sold his membership that winter. Good riddance.

Our men's night used to have cash (pro shop money) prizes. But because of a couple sandbaggers, the winners get 1 sleeve of balls and the rest of the prize money gets handed out in draw prizes. That was 2 years ago, and sandbagging is no longer a problem at our club.

[Cwing]

I am capable of shooting a number much lower than my cap. I've got many rounds over 100 and I've shot 76 on four occasions. I'd suggest tracking to see if all their good rounds are during tournament play. If so, they are cheating.

[llewol007]

Nope a 17 shooting 5 over is a concern for me especially in q tournament. Can't piece enough rounds together to drop the handicap but yet shoots 5 over in a tourney. The only way this can be corrected is having blind draws and not having players picking whom they play the round with.

[Gapwedger7]

Unfortunately there will never be an equalizer to sandbagging/cheating as long as people can give there HC in any type of tourney; it's obviously the worst when prizes are given for best net scores individual or team play. Match play is coming up at the local club I play at and list is not that long to play this year because of people not reporting honest handicap.

 

My buddy who was a playing to close to a 4HC was beaten by a 15HC who was 2 under after 13 holes. Now most people that do play try and fudge the HC by a few strokes and of course the club pro knows most of the members so they cant cheat there scores as much as non-members who show up for events that give there HC/GHIN scores.

 

Also there is something to be said for the HC of 16/18 that can win and shoot low if he has been out for a while then practices up for a few weeks finds his swing before the tournament and plays well; ex Randolph Judah in "legend of bagger Vance movie)

[youraway2]

How does our club combat sandbagging? By telling people, "If you can't beat them, join them." Yep, it's bad. Our pro was scratch last summer. He's a 6 now.

Sounds like your pro is remiss in doing his job and a poor example of a golf professional. He should ensure your club has an active handicap committee as required to be certified in the USGA GHIN handicap system. Then that committee, not chaired by him, would review the handicap indexes of your members each revision. The sandbaggers will stand out I assure you.

[SmiterOfPv1x]

There are about 4 guys in my men's club that always seem to shoot miracle rounds in tournaments and take big $ in the games. I've only been in the club for about 3 years. I only play about 4 a year. But I see all the results of all the tourney's because they send them out to the members.

 

After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice. And that I'm not paying into side games anymore until it's addressed. Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament. Just a few weeks back he shot 104! And another guy with similar posted scores over 100, an 18 HC shoots 81. The are among a group of guys it seems to be a trend with.

 

I've played with these guys because I'm a 15, so we go out in the same groups and I post ALL my scores, so I know I'm a legit 15. And these dudes are not being honest. Ruins it for everybody else.

 

Ahhh. The HC system. I know, I know. "It makes it fair!" "It's what golf is about".

 

I don't maintain one. Many reasons, but mainly because I like to say, "if you can beat me, beat me". I have insanely high rounds. I also have rediculously low rounds. I'm so inconsistent that it's almost comical. Mainly because I don't play enough any more. If I played/practiced enough the high numbers would go bye bye, and the low ones would still be there. 90+% of my shots look like a pro hit them. It's the 10% or so that cause great consternation. When I'm on I'll beat most "scratch" golfers. Legit ones. Most "scratch" golfers I've played can't break 100 on a great day. They're SINO (scratch in name only) guys. Legit "scratch" guys beat me more times than not. But when I'm on they better be on'er. Or they'll be the lo'ser.

 

In short I hate the HC system. It's very flawed. If you're high enough you'll beat most tour pros on a decent day. For the most part I've found that high HC have the greatest dispersion. "Yeah I might shoot 125 or I might shoot 85". How do you play against that. Even my game. Bad round equals 100. Great round equals 68. How do you score that? You can't. So let's say I'm a 15 based on this. That makes me shoot a 53 on that "once a season" 68. Right. Play against that. I play heads up. If you're a consistent 15, great (not saying I'm a 15, probably about a 6 if I actually maintained but still, 62 anyone??). I think not. Crap system. Play heads up and if you can beat someone, beat them. I wouldn't count it as a loss if someone that I was giving 20 strokes to me beat me by ten. BS. I beat them by ten. HC is for women, infants, and children. Be proud. You can now play with and maybe "beat" someone much better than you. Sleep soundly on that. Because it's compete and utter manure. It actually benefits those that stink the most. It's hard to shoot a 60 when you shoot a normal 70. It's pretty easy when you shoot a 110 to shoot a 100. Stupid. Just dumb. Abolish it. Not everyone needs a trophy. Those are reserved for those that win. I'm sorry but you don't beat me with an 80 if you're a 25. You beat me if, and only IF.... you shoot a better score than me. Screw this.

 

Rant off!

[nsxguy]

Unfortunately there will never be an equalizer to sandbagging/cheating as long as people can give there HC in any type of tourney; it's obviously the worst when prizes are given for best net scores individual or team play. Match play is coming up at the local club I play at and list is not that long to play this year because of people not reporting honest handicap.

 

My buddy who was a playing to close to a 4HC was beaten by a 15HC who was 2 under after 13 holes. Now most people that do play try and fudge the HC by a few strokes and of course the club pro knows most of the members so they cant cheat there scores as much as non-members who show up for events that give there HC/GHIN scores.

 

Also there is something to be said for the HC of 16/18 that can win and shoot low if he has been out for a while then practices up for a few weeks finds his swing before the tournament and plays well; ex Randolph Judah in "legend of bagger Vance movie)

 

Now THAT even I would say is impossible. Did the HC Committee do anything ?

 

 

There are about 4 guys in my men's club that always seem to shoot miracle rounds in tournaments and take big $ in the games. I've only been in the club for about 3 years. I only play about 4 a year. But I see all the results of all the tourney's because they send them out to the members.

 

After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice. And that I'm not paying into side games anymore until it's addressed. Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament. Just a few weeks back he shot 104! And another guy with similar posted scores over 100, an 18 HC shoots 81. The are among a group of guys it seems to be a trend with.

 

I've played with these guys because I'm a 15, so we go out in the same groups and I post ALL my scores, so I know I'm a legit 15. And these dudes are not being honest. Ruins it for everybody else.

 

Ahhh. The HC system. I know, I know. "It makes it fair!" "It's what golf is about".

 

I don't maintain one. Many reasons, but mainly because I like to say, "if you can beat me, beat me". I have insanely high rounds. I also have rediculously low rounds. I'm so inconsistent that it's almost comical. Mainly because I don't play enough any more. If I played/practiced enough the high numbers would go bye bye, and the low ones would still be there. 90+% of my shots look like a pro hit them. It's the 10% or so that cause great consternation. When I'm on I'll beat most "scratch" golfers. Legit ones. Most "scratch" golfers I've played can't break 100 on a great day. They're SINO (scratch in name only) guys. Legit "scratch" guys beat me more times than not. But when I'm on they better be on'er. Or they'll be the lo'ser.

 

In short I hate the HC system. It's very flawed. If you're high enough you'll beat most tour pros on a decent day. For the most part I've found that high HC have the greatest dispersion. "Yeah I might shoot 125 or I might shoot 85". How do you play against that. Even my game. Bad round equals 100. Great round equals 68. How do you score that? You can't. So let's say I'm a 15 based on this. That makes me shoot a 53 on that "once a season" 68. Right. Play against that. I play heads up. If you're a consistent 15, great (not saying I'm a 15, probably about a 6 if I actually maintained but still, 62 anyone??). I think not. Crap system. Play heads up and if you can beat someone, beat them. I wouldn't count it as a loss if someone that I was giving 20 strokes to me beat me by ten. BS. I beat them by ten. HC is for women, infants, and children. Be proud. You can now play with and maybe "beat" someone much better than you. Sleep soundly on that. Because it's compete and utter manure. It actually benefits those that stink the most. It's hard to shoot a 60 when you shoot a normal 70. It's pretty easy when you shoot a 110 to shoot a 100. Stupid. Just dumb. Abolish it. Not everyone needs a trophy. Those are reserved for those that win. I'm sorry but you don't beat me with an 80 if you're a 25. You beat me if, and only IF.... you shoot a better score than me. Screw this.

 

Rant off!

 

Professor ? Professor Irwin Corey ? Is that you ?

 

[oneputt8]

Umm I'd say slim to no chance?

[Stuwake03]

Bunch of damn sandbaggers ruin the whole point.

[Gapwedger7]

nsxguy,

 

No he did not; also no GHIN was needed to participate. Just sad...

[SmiterOfPv1x]

Unfortunately there will never be an equalizer to sandbagging/cheating as long as people can give there HC in any type of tourney; it's obviously the worst when prizes are given for best net scores individual or team play. Match play is coming up at the local club I play at and list is not that long to play this year because of people not reporting honest handicap.

 

My buddy who was a playing to close to a 4HC was beaten by a 15HC who was 2 under after 13 holes. Now most people that do play try and fudge the HC by a few strokes and of course the club pro knows most of the members so they cant cheat there scores as much as non-members who show up for events that give there HC/GHIN scores.

 

Also there is something to be said for the HC of 16/18 that can win and shoot low if he has been out for a while then practices up for a few weeks finds his swing before the tournament and plays well; ex Randolph Judah in "legend of bagger Vance movie)

 

Now THAT even I would say is impossible. Did the HC Committee do anything ?

 

 

There are about 4 guys in my men's club that always seem to shoot miracle rounds in tournaments and take big $ in the games. I've only been in the club for about 3 years. I only play about 4 a year. But I see all the results of all the tourney's because they send them out to the members.

 

After this past weeks tournament I wrote the club and told them these handful of guys who claim to be 17 and 18 HCs that seem to have their "best round all year" in tournaments only need to be put on notice. And that I'm not paying into side games anymore until it's addressed. Just this last week we had a dude who has posted scores over 100 on his HC in the past handful of rounds he's posted, then shoots 77 in the tournament. Just a few weeks back he shot 104! And another guy with similar posted scores over 100, an 18 HC shoots 81. The are among a group of guys it seems to be a trend with.

 

I've played with these guys because I'm a 15, so we go out in the same groups and I post ALL my scores, so I know I'm a legit 15. And these dudes are not being honest. Ruins it for everybody else.

 

Ahhh. The HC system. I know, I know. "It makes it fair!" "It's what golf is about".

 

I don't maintain one. Many reasons, but mainly because I like to say, "if you can beat me, beat me". I have insanely high rounds. I also have rediculously low rounds. I'm so inconsistent that it's almost comical. Mainly because I don't play enough any more. If I played/practiced enough the high numbers would go bye bye, and the low ones would still be there. 90+% of my shots look like a pro hit them. It's the 10% or so that cause great consternation. When I'm on I'll beat most "scratch" golfers. Legit ones. Most "scratch" golfers I've played can't break 100 on a great day. They're SINO (scratch in name only) guys. Legit "scratch" guys beat me more times than not. But when I'm on they better be on'er. Or they'll be the lo'ser.

 

In short I hate the HC system. It's very flawed. If you're high enough you'll beat most tour pros on a decent day. For the most part I've found that high HC have the greatest dispersion. "Yeah I might shoot 125 or I might shoot 85". How do you play against that. Even my game. Bad round equals 100. Great round equals 68. How do you score that? You can't. So let's say I'm a 15 based on this. That makes me shoot a 53 on that "once a season" 68. Right. Play against that. I play heads up. If you're a consistent 15, great (not saying I'm a 15, probably about a 6 if I actually maintained but still, 62 anyone??). I think not. Crap system. Play heads up and if you can beat someone, beat them. I wouldn't count it as a loss if someone that I was giving 20 strokes to me beat me by ten. BS. I beat them by ten. HC is for women, infants, and children. Be proud. You can now play with and maybe "beat" someone much better than you. Sleep soundly on that. Because it's compete and utter manure. It actually benefits those that stink the most. It's hard to shoot a 60 when you shoot a normal 70. It's pretty easy when you shoot a 110 to shoot a 100. Stupid. Just dumb. Abolish it. Not everyone needs a trophy. Those are reserved for those that win. I'm sorry but you don't beat me with an 80 if you're a 25. You beat me if, and only IF.... you shoot a better score than me. Screw this.

 

Rant off!

 

Professor ? Professor Irwin Corey ? Is that you ?

 

 

Lol! Sorry for the raving lunatic rambling, but I've lost too many times when I've won. You know what I mean.

 

Worst thing I ever saw, I was playing in a scramble and of course they have the long drive hole. I call these, Smiters Paradise. I really REALLY get into one on this hole, toward the end of the round to boot. Only maybe 4 groups yet to play this hole. Get up there and I'm a LONG way past the previous mark so I fill in my name and move it to my ball. Finish the round and they announce that the four awards winners (long drive, long putt, proximityx2) were splitting season tickets to the local pro baseball team. What? Yes!! Anyways, get to the long drive and I get out of my chair when they're about to announce it. He calls off a name other than mine. What?? I'm now expecting a big hairy gorilla to get up and claim his well deserved reward. Nope. Some guy that was about 65 years old, 5'4" and about 130 heads to the stage??? No way in heck he hit one that far. No way. I doubt he was there in two. But since playing with a bunch of buds that would lie for him, he claims the prize. I do say something to him later in the evening and his only comment was, "there's benefits to playing in the last group". If he wasn't so old he and I would have tangled.

[OffTheDole]

I do say something to him later in the evening and his only comment was, "there's benefits to playing in the last group".

 

That's just evil.

[CrushSticks]

Played in a tournament 2 years ago in the A flight as an 8, and lowest cap in the flight. First day, paired with a 13. Guy shoots +2 and literally missed one shot the other day. He was acting shocked, I thought he was full of it.

 

I shoot 79-79 and beat him anyways since he shot like 86 the next day. It was a strange one.

 

To cap it off two 14 handicaps beat me by tying with 77-76.

 

Sandbag City, IL

[Motley]

Its pretty simple to solve. Implement a rule. If you shoot better than 7 strokes under you HC in any tournament, you are disqualified.

 

I used to play in one of those flighted based tournaments . Flight A is 0-4 HC, Flight B 5-10, Flight C 10-15 HC, and Flight D 15+ HC.

If a player won his flight by more than 7 strokes, they would be moved up a to the higher flight. And also not only did they have GHIN handicaps, but they also had your handicap based on the the tournaments (which ever was lower). So high scores reported to regular GHIN system would be ignored.

 

Hard to sandbag that way.

[CELTIC]

My average for the last 20 rounds is a 95.8. My average for my 10 best of those 20 is a 91.6 giving me an unofficial 20.6 index.

 

IMHO - There is simply no way a 17 shoots a 77. A 17 can hold it together for 9 holes but he's not getting though 18 without blowing up at least 2 holes with a double or triple, then shooting par the rest of the round. No way.