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The Old Course is redundant to modern top class players, amateurs included. The easiest championship course I have ever played. Not wind equals very little challenge. To make courses tougher they need to bring back cross bunkers, fairway bunkers that need a short iron or wedge to escape, real rough and three shot par fives. Too many modern par 5s have no protection of the green so encourage the bigger hitters to go for it as there is little risk of punishment. Golf National put a premium on driving and the wilder hitters were reduced to moaning old women.....driving accuracy is a skill.

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The rough (even though it is considered as "through the green") still shouldn't reward players with more easily played approach shots, over shots played from the fairway.

 

If more "traditional" courses took this route - adding more hazards in the long hitter's landing area - additional lengthening of courses wouldn't be as necessary.

 

I am also of the school of making bunkers more treacherous.

 

The problem with the first statement you make is that there comes a point where there is a break-even distance on the course where being in the rough but closer is as beneficial as being in the fairway but further away. In essence if you are in light rough and 100 yards out your strokes gained number is maybe the same as a fairway approach from 135. If you are in the rough but closer to the green you are better off there than in the fairway. The way to counteract that is to make the rough more penal of course. If your hazards on the course are set up for above average mortals at around 300, your he-man linebackers not only can clear it easily but they are better off by far in doing so, even if it means ending up in the rough (provided it is not US Open hay).

 

Your second statement regarding moving or putting more hazards in the longer hitters landing area, that gets costly. Plus it seems you need to do it about every ten to fifteen years to keep them in the landing area. And then it is tough to move a dogleg, stream or other more "permanent" hazard.

 

The naturally long hitters are the ones who should be championing an equipment/distance freeze. Averaging 300 yards used to be a nice advantage. Now you are T59 in 2018 stats.

 

 

Yes, "Junior baseball " , Little League ? Youth League.......?

 

 

I hate to pick nits on an off-topic tangent but there are a ton of ways that junior baseball is different than MLB or even minor league but still professional baseball. Equipment differences being the most glaring, aluminum bats, prime example. The difference in the ball next. Huge difference between an MLB or Minor League ball and what colleges and high schools use. Seams are much higher and more prominent on younger league's balls.

 

Pitching rules exist in youth leagues. The number of innings played is less. Substitution rules are different as well. I caught in high school. I rarely ran the bases as there was a "courtesy runner" for pitchers and catchers in an effort to speed up the game.

 

Granted the average driving distance on the professional circuit is around 300 yards plus. My friend's son in the High School golf team can fly his 5 iron 200+. However, not many golfers I encountered at the public daily fee golf courses have that kind of ability.

How many did you golf with that drives tee shots over 300 yards consistently ?

For those whom have the athletic ability to get distance, will have a health issue before they are 30 years old if not sooner. The golf swing we see today on the broadcast is maxing out our human ability. Push for the limit, that's what we admire.

Same as the professional athletes from other sports, not many could enjoy a normal life after the glory days are gone.

 

Let's not forget the handicap index. If used properly, it could level the field besides distance, somewhat.

We have lots of golf courses around here that's less than 6600 yards even after adding tee boxes, a couple had held local PGA qualifying events in the 50's and the 60's. I don't see these golf courses going away, just because a few on the Professional Tour could hit the golf ball out of sight.

 

I play golf regularly with about five people. I would say my average drive is around 290. I am not the longest nor the shortest of the bunch. Guy I play with most often is consistently 300+. He plays to about a 7. I am more like a 16. I can't capitalize upon my distance nor control direction all that well. I am always walking a fine line between an ugly hook and a big push, certainly not taking one side of the course out of play. Most of the guys I play with are former baseball players at some level and around 35-30 years old. I am 33.

 

What differentiates the guys I play with from my distance is that they can not only hit it far but they hit it so high the ball rarely runs out more than 5-8 yards. They can not only go over doglegs or trees but they can basically drop it and stop it. I need 20 yards of roll out cause I hit the ball so low with hook spin most of the time. Hitting that high low spin shot that is all carry is a marked difference from the way that most of us are playing the game and how the game was played previous to the last 15 years or so.

 

I know personally two folks who have carded aces on par fours this year, one with a three wood. Cannot lengthen one of the holes as there is a green directly behind the farthest back tee box and a pool on the other side of that hole's green.

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I play golf regularly with about five people. I would say my average drive is around 290. I am not the longest nor the shortest of the bunch. Guy I play with most often is consistently 300+. He plays to about a 7. I am more like a 16. I can't capitalize upon my distance nor control direction all that well. I am always walking a fine line between an ugly hook and a big push, certainly not taking one side of the course out of play. Most of the guys I play with are former baseball players at some level and around 35-30 years old. I am 33.

 

What differentiates the guys I play with from my distance is that they can not only hit it far but they hit it so high the ball rarely runs out more than 5-8 yards. They can not only go over doglegs or trees but they can basically drop it and stop it. I need 20 yards of roll out cause I hit the ball so low with hook spin most of the time. Hitting that high low spin shot that is all carry is a marked difference from the way that most of us are playing the game and how the game was played previous to the last 15 years or so.

 

I know personally two folks who have carded aces on par fours this year, one with a three wood. Cannot lengthen one of the holes as there is a green directly behind the farthest back tee box and a pool on the other side of that hole's green.

 

Your 16 handicap hanging out with the guys playing better than the PGA Tour card holders..... and you have a solution to solve the worldly problems.

I envy youthful way of viewing the world around them.

Good for you. You are definitely better than most the golfers and certainly better than most of us here.

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So now I wonder if this distance thing is really a problem at all. Maybe it's only a problem if they rip up my course and screw things up for me. At my age, health, skill, & flexibility the length of the course will never be a problem. I suspect that there are a lot of people like me who will just putt off into the ether. I might have 10 - 15 years left to play if things hold together. Maybe a lot less. So does it really matter?

 

Maybe it's a good thing that people buy expensive drivers and irons that I can pick up in the thrift stores after I retire for pennies on the dollar. Yeah. That's a good thing now that I think about it.

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So now I wonder if this distance thing is really a problem at all. Maybe it's only a problem if they rip up my course and screw things up for me. At my age, health, skill, & flexibility the length of the course will never be a problem. I suspect that there are a lot of people like me who will just putt off into the ether. I might have 10 - 15 years left to play if things hold together. Maybe a lot less. So does it really matter?

 

Maybe it's a good thing that people buy expensive drivers and irons that I can pick up in the thrift stores after I retire for pennies on the dollar. Yeah. That's a good thing now that I think about it.

 

This is the thing - it’s not an issue for pretty much everyone who’s not a top amateur or professional. Most of us don’t swing it hard enough to extract maximum value from the modern ball or driver. It’s a problem for the great old courses though as they are defenceless against top players with the current equipment. Obviously some would prefer to plant trees, grow rough etc to combat them. I don’t think Mackenzie, Ross, Tillinghast etc would be too thrilled about having that done to their work.

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Not a Course Architect, but, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

Each architect of the old guard had his signature way of defending the course during his design, given the land that he had available for construction.

And, let’s not debate the fact that they did not have a crystal ball to be able to see what was in the future technology wise that allows the modern (highly skilled) player to make a shambles of some of their iconic designs.

The use of cross bunkers is extremely effective, unless modern technology deems it otherwise.

Rough can be manipulated, sometimes at the expense of the original intended design.

Bunkers, and green complexes can be massaged to provide as much, or, as little defense as desired.

From my POV, the old guard courses cannot stand up to the modern game with their original design.

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And, let's not debate the fact that they did not have a crystal ball to be able to see what was in the future technology wise that allows the modern (highly skilled) player to make a shambles of some of their iconic designs.

 

Hmmm - seems that Mackenzie had at least some idea...

 

 

Rough can be manipulated, sometimes at the expense of the original intended design.

Isn't this a pretty good argument not to do it?

 

From my POV, the old guard courses cannot stand up to the modern game with their original design.

 

It seems I'm in a minority here, but I'd prefer to see the great courses played more as the architect intended - which means the alternative is a tweak to the modern game for the very best players, as we've discussed elsewhere.

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The Old Course is redundant to modern top class players, amateurs included. The easiest championship course I have ever played. Not wind equals very little challenge. To make courses tougher they need to bring back cross bunkers, fairway bunkers that need a short iron or wedge to escape, real rough and three shot par fives. Too many modern par 5s have no protection of the green so encourage the bigger hitters to go for it as there is little risk of punishment. Golf National put a premium on driving and the wilder hitters were reduced to moaning old women.....driving accuracy is a skill.

 

Funny you mentioned to make the golf courses more challenging.

I had seen the opposite from our local golf courses in the last two decades.

 

A local links style golf courses had removed all the original design that will challenge a golfer's skill, the knee high Fescues behind the greens, tall rough along the fairway and hidden deep bunkers fronting the greens......all In the name of a "safer" round, but I believe they want to speed up the play.

 

Yes, this golf course will not be the site for any USGA sanctioned qualifying round, but they are doing great business. I guess if it survived the next ten years, the grass could be grown back and the sand could filled the now grass bunkers.

 

Another Tribal golf course which was designed by famous group, also gone through a remake after the 5th year of open. The greens were "softened" , some rolling spots were leveled , trees removed, and bunkers either shallow out or removed.

 

I guess the professionals and the few qualify to play the U.S. Amateurs either don't need to pay green fees or few and far in between in numbers to support the golf course.

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This is the thing - it’s not an issue for pretty much everyone who’s not a top amateur or professional. Most of us don’t swing it hard enough to extract maximum value from the modern ball or driver. It’s a problem for the great old courses though as they are defenceless against top players with the current equipment. Obviously some would prefer to plant trees, grow rough etc to combat them. I don’t think Mackenzie, Ross, Tillinghast etc would be too thrilled about having that done to their work.

 

Not a Course Architect, but, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

Each architect of the old guard had his signature way of defending the course during his design, given the land that he had available for construction.

 

...

 

From my POV, the old guard courses cannot stand up to the modern game with their original design.

 

Rough can be manipulated, sometimes at the expense of the original intended design.

Isn't this a pretty good argument not to do it?

 

From my POV, the old guard courses cannot stand up to the modern game with their original design.

 

It seems I'm in a minority here, but I'd prefer to see the great courses played more as the architect intended - which means the alternative is a tweak to the modern game for the very best players, as we've discussed elsewhere.

 

 

Steve I agree. The options are this in my view (worldly at the ripe old age of 33 built due to playing with supermen), you can let technology continue to head the direction it is and change the grand old courses so that we can say the best players of today play the same courses as Hogan and Sneed and Nicklaus (even though in our hearts we should know they really aren't the "same" after all those changes), we can let technology keep heading the way it is and elect to not change our courses and they either get destroyed or we have to accept that they are incapable of providing an adequate field for play for decent players (this is already happening to some extent thus the move away from "classic" courses as tour stops and instead to TPC - Insert Name), or we make a hard decision to do what is good for the game and either bifurcate for the top levels/sanctioned events or roll everyone back somewhat and we all take our lumps.

 

What value does playing a Ross or Colt or MacKenzie have if it is not what they put on the ground or is just their design in name only? I have to think with the popularity and demand of resto-vations going on that there is a contingent of golfers (and course owners) who value keeping that design intent and returning to it where practicable.

 

Maybe (probably) most retail golfers don't care if it is a Ross but he ain't around to push dirt anymore so those of us who do better take care of what he and the other ODG's left us. These old courses are a gift and we should treat them as such. As much as an architectural marvel as Frank Lloyd Wright's creations and as much art as Andy Warhol's.

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Boys,

I am onboard with keeping the old courses inline with the architect’s original intentions. And, if, it were realistically possible to dial back the equipment I feel this could be accomplished, but, without beating the dead horse, with respect to OEMS, sales, and state of the modern game, I’ll just say I think that avenue is a lost cause.

The barn doors have been open for awhile now, the horses are running around unbridled, I don’t see how we can lasso and herd them back in to where we can bolt the doors shut.

I firsthand witness an older Seth Raynor design brought to its knees earlier this year during an NCAA Ladies event.

The courses main defense off the tee being cross bunkering rarely was a factor, which led, in my opinion, due to more lofted club selections with the approach shots, less entrapment around the green complexes.

Due to weather conditions it was playing soft, but, a 62 backed up by a 65...

As an afterthought, I don’t feel that the majority of modern “golfers” give a tinkers .... about course architecture, they just want to go swat a ball, as far as they can, with a stick.

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As an afterthought, I don't feel that the majority of modern "golfers" give a tinkers .... about course architecture, they just want to go swat a ball, as far as they can, with a stick.

 

Sadly I have to agree with you.

It's not all about the score.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ClassicGolfClubs

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Boys,

I am onboard with keeping the old courses inline with the architect's original intentions. And, if, it were realistically possible to dial back the equipment I feel this could be accomplished, but, without beating the dead horse, with respect to OEMS, sales, and state of the modern game, I'll just say I think that avenue is a lost cause.

The barn doors have been open for awhile now, the horses are running around unbridled, I don't see how we can lasso and herd them back in to where we can bolt the doors shut.

I firsthand witness an older Seth Raynor design brought to its knees earlier this year during an NCAA Ladies event.

The courses main defense off the tee being cross bunkering rarely was a factor, which led, in my opinion, due to more lofted club selections with the approach shots, less entrapment around the green complexes.

Due to weather conditions it was playing soft, but, a 62 backed up by a 65...

As an afterthought, I don't feel that the majority of modern "golfers" give a tinkers .... about course architecture, they just want to go swat a ball, as far as they can, with a stick.

 

eloquent....but true

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Since many of the old, classic courses we like to bemoan are no longer suitable for pros to play, were designed and built around the characteristics of the gutta percha ball I suggest we go back to that standard. Then we could go back to the way these courses were intend to be played. Maybe Prestwick can get added back into the rota.

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Since many of the old, classic courses we like to bemoan are no longer suitable for pros to play, were designed and built around the characteristics of the gutta percha ball I suggest we go back to that standard. Then we could go back to the way these courses were intend to be played. Maybe Prestwick can get added back into the rota.

 

Would rather watch that that the modern driver-9 iron show.

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Would rather watch that that the modern driver-9 iron show.

 

Not quite back to gutta percha but I came across this collection of videos which I've been enjoying over recent evenings.

(A special treat if you're a Seve fan.)

 

https://www.youtube....ZVX_hnVA/videos

It's not all about the score.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ClassicGolfClubs

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Since many of the old, classic courses we like to bemoan are no longer suitable for pros to play, were designed and built around the characteristics of the gutta percha ball I suggest we go back to that standard. Then we could go back to the way these courses were intend to be played. Maybe Prestwick can get added back into the rota.

 

Would rather watch that that the modern driver-9 iron show.

 

Oh, I don't know.

I fell off the couch laughing this weekend at Rory's drive and thrashed 8 iron over the back of Shanghai's 2nd and his resultant snowman.

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So now I wonder if this distance thing is really a problem at all. Maybe it's only a problem if they rip up my course and screw things up for me. At my age, health, skill, & flexibility the length of the course will never be a problem. I suspect that there are a lot of people like me who will just putt off into the ether. I might have 10 - 15 years left to play if things hold together. Maybe a lot less. So does it really matter?

 

Maybe it's a good thing that people buy expensive drivers and irons that I can pick up in the thrift stores after I retire for pennies on the dollar. Yeah. That's a good thing now that I think about it.

My sentiments exactly.

Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

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At some point, imo, golf will become bifurcated or "trifurcated", to coin a word. You will have the vintage game, the amateur game, and the pro game. We already have that now in an embryonic or maybe an unrecognized form. No one that I know plays the pro game and there are no "pro level" courses near me or that I can afford.

 

So there probably ought to be three sets of rules, or a basic set that serves as the base for all three forms with add-ons or local rules to cover the equipment / ball differences because of the tech.

 

I see a day when the pro tour is so far out of the norm that money and tech lead it into irrelevancy. I think we are seeing the seeds of that in our lifetime. Hickory & vintage continues to grow in it's niche, albeit slowly, and the middle ground is held by the garden variety Joe six-pack pro-wannabe player. The only way for us normal people to stay in touch with the pro game is through illegal tech, which I am not convinced actually does anything anyway.

 

So I will get older and retreat into my own vintage world and play the game I love the way that I see fit regardless of who joins me. As the years role on I will be able to see less and less of the pro game due primarily to lack of money and my steadfast refusal to pay for television. but I can still read about the golden age of golf, and picture myself in the gallery watching Gene Sarazen, Walter Hagen, Harry Vardon, Tommy Armour, Arnie, Jack, Lee, and Gary among others. And I'll be out there early in the mornings playing my nine hole rounds as long as my health and stamina allow.

 

My clubs, my ball, my rules from the forward tees. Ymmv.

That last line says it all as far as I am concerned---- That is what our little loosely knit organization is all about-- The Outlaw Golf Association---- Play from where you darn well please play what clubs you want to and the USGA and R&A be dammed. While you are at it have fun doing so!!!!

Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

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Instead of lengthening courses I still believe the answer is to...

1) Narrow the fairways.

2) Grow the rough.

3) Grow the trees, and add more.

4) Deepen and expand the bunkers, and add more.

5) Ignore the whining.

 

Even at Augusta, Royal Melbourne and The Old Course?

 

What you’re suggesting would ruin golf as a spectator sport for me.

 

The Old Course always was and always will be dependent on the weather for it's degree of difficulty. The same can be said about Royal Melbourne, to a degree.

 

As for Augusta....the progression of the course from old bermuda greens really started trends we see today. The bent greens now are part of what protects the course.

 

I would certainly be a proponent of positioning more fairway bunkering in areas of landing for the exceptionally long hitters, to keep 'em honest, and straight(er). I have always believed a well struck drive that positions one's next shot from the fairway should always be more of a reward than a "longer" tee shot, played from the rough.

 

The rough (even though it is considered as "through the green") still shouldn't reward players with more easily played approach shots, over shots played from the fairway.

 

If more "traditional" courses took this route - adding more hazards in the long hitter's landing area - additional lengthening of courses wouldn't be as necessary.

 

I am also of the school of making bunkers more treacherous. What the PGA Tour does for the players is provide them with rough-free targets around the greens. Make them penal, like Nicklaus did at the Memorial tournament a few years ago, and force players to decide on how they play their approach shots. Or, design holes like #11 at ANGC. Takes some real cajonies to attack either a front or back left pin position there, and there is a great, shortly mowed "bail-out" area to the right of the green. If this design feature were instituted at more Tour level courses, you could see whether the bomb and gouge crowd had what it took to attack and score.

 

But...it is what it is. The Tour is now a big side show, producing low numbers. I personally like to see that par is the standard, and should be protected.

 

Just an old man's ramblings - YMMV

Yeah make bunkers more penal like the ones in Scotland etc. Yep seen some of the best players in the world take 3 or 4 shots to get out of one. Do you remember when Nicklaus had those special rakes made for the Memorial man? Man o Man was there some tears shed.

Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

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"Rough can be manipulated, sometimes at the expense of the original intended design."

I am not talking about "Historic Courses" but outside of a handful of those does it really matter if the course is changed in ways that challenge the current golfers although that requires changing the intended design? Wasn't that design intended to challenge the golfers at that time but may no longer be able to do so?

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"

Rough can be manipulated, sometimes at the expense of the original intended design."

 

I am not talking about "Historic Courses" but outside of a handful of those does it really matter if the course is changed in ways that challenge the current golfers although that requires changing the intended design? Wasn't that design intended to challenge the golfers at that time but may no longer be able to do so?

 

Well if you are talking public golf if you let the roughs grow or narrow the fairways you are going to hear howling. Really the average Joe golfer on any course is not an issue. I can see it with young Pros and young top amateurs. I see plenty of young guys that can pound the ball but after that they do not know what to do with it. I also see middle aged golfers the same way. I know you see it too among the Touron crowd. A lot of Saturday mornings I am out early on the range either messing with a few clubs or just loosening up. It is sorta my quiet time I just relax with a cigar and a cup of coffee. When the Tourons come in and hit the range I sit on my bench enjoying my coffee and cigar and observe. 99% of them hit the range with driver in hand pounding the driver hardly any of them go to the putting green. Most of them can hit a ball but have no idea in hell where it is going. It is free entertainment for me. But on the Tour level I think it will hurt the Tour if they dial back the ball. Joe Hacker loves to see those guys hit 350 yard carry drives and 190 yard 9 irons. Personally I think a lot of the claims on TV are exzaggerated to awe the fans. I also know (and this is fodder for another thread) that there are a lot of Prototype balls on Tour that we can not buy. Does the USGA or PGA Tour test and approve every SINGLE ball used in a tournament? My point exactly is that is why they are hollering about rolling back the ball?

Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

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Please Lord no. Prestwick is one of the most overrated courses on the planet. It was designed by Mr Mick E. Mouse.

What? Not the Young Tommy track surely? The original 12 were laid out at right angles to the existing layout which we played with gutties and hickory sticks. Which was fun because they were playing a monthly medal on the current layout at the same time....talk about 'bomb alley'!

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"Rough can be manipulated, sometimes at the expense of the original intended design."

 

I am not talking about "Historic Courses" but outside of a handful of those does it really matter if the course is changed in ways that challenge the current golfers although that requires changing the intended design? Wasn't that design intended to challenge the golfers at that time but may no longer be able to do so?

 

Well if you are talking public golf if you let the roughs grow or narrow the fairways you are going to hear howling. Really the average Joe golfer on any course is not an issue. I can see it with young Pros and young top amateurs. I see plenty of young guys that can pound the ball but after that they do not know what to do with it. I also see middle aged golfers the same way. I know you see it too among the Touron crowd. A lot of Saturday mornings I am out early on the range either messing with a few clubs or just loosening up. It is sorta my quiet time I just relax with a cigar and a cup of coffee. When the Tourons come in and hit the range I sit on my bench enjoying my coffee and cigar and observe. 99% of them hit the range with driver in hand pounding the driver hardly any of them go to the putting green. Most of them can hit a ball but have no idea in hell where it is going. It is free entertainment for me. But on the Tour level I think it will hurt the Tour if they dial back the ball. Joe Hacker loves to see those guys hit 350 yard carry drives and 190 yard 9 irons. Personally I think a lot of the claims on TV are exzaggerated to awe the fans. I also know (and this is fodder for another thread) that there are a lot of Prototype balls on Tour that we can not buy. Does the USGA or PGA Tour test and approve every SINGLE ball used in a tournament? My point exactly is that is why they are hollering about rolling back the ball?

 

I agree my Friend and Yes, I see it all the time.

I don't think there is any need to change 95% of the Public Courses.

I have come to the belief that dialing back the ball or the equipment would be a mistake overall.

I do know "Joe Hacker" loves to see the Tour Pros blast the ball and wants to emulate them. Let them. I can be 50 yards back or more after the Tee Shot and still hang with or beat the vast majority of those guys. Played with 2 guys yesterday that consistently hit it 50 yards or so past me... into the Rough, or... into the Water, a couple times into a Tree (that didn't give the ball back.) I didn't keep score but we all knew I had beaten them handily.

I'm talking about the courses that hold tournaments for the Tours, or want to. Stop lengthening them which is not only ridiculously expensive but makes them pretty much unplayable for 99% of us. Even if they have tee boxes far enough forward to serve the public I still don't see lengthening as the best answer.

 

1) Narrow the fairways.

 

2) Grow the rough.

 

3) Grow the trees, and add more.

 

4) Deepen and expand the bunkers, and add more.

 

5) Ignore the whining

 

That will give us all the best of both worlds. Joe Hacker can still get a h@rd on watching 350 yard drives and those of us that enjoy seeing actual shot making can cheer for those who can still play from the fairway. Numbers against Par become a little more realistic and TV coverage can still show all the same Thrills, more "Spills," and defiantly far more Skills.

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"Rough can be manipulated, sometimes at the expense of the original intended design."

 

I am not talking about "Historic Courses" but outside of a handful of those does it really matter if the course is changed in ways that challenge the current golfers although that requires changing the intended design? Wasn't that design intended to challenge the golfers at that time but may no longer be able to do so?

 

Well if you are talking public golf if you let the roughs grow or narrow the fairways you are going to hear howling. Really the average Joe golfer on any course is not an issue. I can see it with young Pros and young top amateurs. I see plenty of young guys that can pound the ball but after that they do not know what to do with it. I also see middle aged golfers the same way. I know you see it too among the Touron crowd. A lot of Saturday mornings I am out early on the range either messing with a few clubs or just loosening up. It is sorta my quiet time I just relax with a cigar and a cup of coffee. When the Tourons come in and hit the range I sit on my bench enjoying my coffee and cigar and observe. 99% of them hit the range with driver in hand pounding the driver hardly any of them go to the putting green. Most of them can hit a ball but have no idea in hell where it is going. It is free entertainment for me. But on the Tour level I think it will hurt the Tour if they dial back the ball. Joe Hacker loves to see those guys hit 350 yard carry drives and 190 yard 9 irons. Personally I think a lot of the claims on TV are exzaggerated to awe the fans. I also know (and this is fodder for another thread) that there are a lot of Prototype balls on Tour that we can not buy. Does the USGA or PGA Tour test and approve every SINGLE ball used in a tournament? My point exactly is that is why they are hollering about rolling back the ball?

 

I agree my Friend and Yes, I see it all the time.

I don't think there is any need to change 95% of the Public Courses.

I have come to the belief that dialing back the ball or the equipment would be a mistake overall.

I do know "Joe Hacker" loves to see the Tour Pros blast the ball and wants to emulate them. Let them. I can be 50 yards back or more after the Tee Shot and still hang with or beat the vast majority of those guys. Played with 2 guys yesterday that consistently hit it 50 yards or so past me... into the Rough, or... into the Water, a couple times into a Tree (that didn't give the ball back.) I didn't keep score but we all knew I had beaten them handily.

I'm talking about the courses that hold tournaments for the Tours, or want to. Stop lengthening them which is not only ridiculously expensive but makes them pretty much unplayable for 99% of us. Even if they have tee boxes far enough forward to serve the public I still don't see lengthening as the best answer.

 

1) Narrow the fairways.

 

2) Grow the rough.

 

3) Grow the trees, and add more.

 

4) Deepen and expand the bunkers, and add more.

 

5) Ignore the whining

 

That will give us all the best of both worlds. Joe Hacker can still get a h@rd on watching 350 yard drives and those of us that enjoy seeing actual shot making can cheer for those who can still play from the fairway. Numbers against Par become a little more realistic and TV coverage can still show all the same Thrills, more "Spills," and defiantly far more Skills.

 

#1 and especially #5 is all that needs to be done

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Well,I definitely do not get a h@rd on watching mens' golf these days,the LPGA however is a different proposition and I can become far more interested because their skill levels are now extremely high,their game is much closer to the one I think I have and they are so much more pleasant to watch because they look like individuals rather than wearing the Nike corporate uniform.

Golf has been bifurcated since professionals decided to play to their own rules,let them play on their own courses built for modern play and a halt to the ruination of classic courses,I have just resigned from a club over that same issue,fairways 12 paces wide,fringes all scalped to the very edge and greens shaved in an effort to reach 12 on the stimp for what?

To make it more challenging for cat.1 golfers who total about a dozen.

We are fortunate in the UK that so many classic courses are owned by private clubs who understand their heritage and their responsibility to maintain it and have no interest in ruining their courses.

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I have come to the belief that dialing back the ball or the equipment would be a mistake overall.

I do know "Joe Hacker" loves to see the Tour Pros blast the ball and wants to emulate them. Let them. [...]

 

That will give us all the best of both worlds. Joe Hacker can still get a h@rd on watching 350 yard drives [...]

 

This is the thing I really, genuinely, don't understand.

 

I was at the Scottish Open this year, and when I occasionally found myself in position to actually have a chance at following their ballflight, I saw Lee Westwood and Robert Rock hitting it out of sight. I would not say that I felt the earth move, but it was very impressive nonetheless.

But I also remember seeing Greg Norman and Tom Watson hit balatas out of sight in the 80s. And that was very impressive too. They might have been 30, or even 40 yards shorter than modern tour pros, but whilst I think a top ball striker's flight is something to behold, I am really not convinced that 30 yards of driving distance is readily apparent to the bystander if they don't have any fixed reference point.

It's seems pretty obvious from the very inflated assumptions that people make as to how far they actually drive the ball that people are very poor at eyeballing how far, in yards, a ball is actually flying. The idea that if you trimmed 10% of that distance back to fit a modern field into a classic venue then the spectacle would collapse just strikes me as very unlikely.

 

On the other hand, what I DO think is visually spectacular is this. Put the hazards where they genuinely challenge the average pro's drive. Anyone who can take on and clear those hazards is going to impress the crowd. I just don't think it matters to the spectators whether those hazards are 260 yards from the tee or 300.

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