Jump to content

Shoulder turn + (left knee bend + right leg straighten) = Backswing


Recommended Posts

Sorry if you already have heard of this one before ... but I was trying to illustrate to someone that the shoulders do not rotate 90 degrees in the backswing and stumbled upon this feel drill.

 

Q: How far do your shoulders turn relative to your spine ?

 

Take a stance where your knees have the usual bend in them, but you are otherwise standing straight up with your arms folded across your chest and your hands in front of each shoulder.

 

Without moving your hips, twist your upper body as far as it can go simulating a backswing (aka turn your shoulders). Note: your shoulders are turning super flat (essentially parallel to the ground). Keep your head steady as if you were looking at the ball. Rotate your shoulders very slowly at the start to ensure your hips stay still. Once you have rotated your upper body as far as it can go, hold the position of your shoulders, relax your head and let it turn such that your head is facing perpendicular to your shoulder turn. You can now assess how far your shoulders have turned. You won't be facing the caddie so your shoulders didn't turn 90 degrees. Mine turn 45 degrees ?

 

Feel: Shoulder turn + (left knee bend + right leg straighten) = Backswing

 

Same as bold above.

Now add simultaneous (left knee bend + right leg straighten) until your back faces the target (or your chest faces the caddy) == Backswing done !

 

This feel drill isolates the lower body pivot (SIMULTANEOUS left knee bend + right leg straightens). Since it is performed last ... and in isolation, you can feel what the lower body pivot actually is ! :)

 

- try variations ...

- left knee moves perpendicular to the ball target line only (no knee rotation).

- allow the left knee to rotate more with the rotating pelvis.

- try to get the left knee starting to bend 20 degrees in the direction of the target (opposite of the one above).

 

Did you notice that left side bend is actually left knee bend + right leg straighten ? Cool eh ?

 

Note: The gWRX nerds will also realize that Shoulder turn + (left knee bend + right leg straighten) = Backswing is wrong. It is actually: Shoulder turn + (left knee bend + right leg straighten) + hip extension = Backswing. I took out hip extension (aka getting rid of the bend at the waist) (you stood straight at address, not bent over) to more easily feel the lower body pivot.

 

Please try this feel drill and tell me what you think !

If you found the instructions confusing ... please let me know so I can improve them.

 

-

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 116
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Okay I simply need to get my hands higher/arm more upright at the top of the swing. I know this is my problem because its gotten notoriously flatter and thats when my swing goes to hell. When I'm more upright, I hit it way better, don't early extend, and gain distance. I'm about a 2 handicap and I know my swing pretty well. I get stuck under the plane from this flat position. Any drills, feels to get up higher? Thanks guys.

 

If you try my drill above, I think the only answer is:

 

To get your left shoulder lower (and right higher), you need more left knee bend and more right leg straighter. :).

 

The shoulder turn in golf is subservient to the lower body pivot. Actually shoulder turn is just a bad term. It should be called Upper body coil.

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm having trouble visualizing, can you post a video demonstrating?

No. Ask questions.

 

Need to discuss the tilts to have anything resembling a full description.

 

which tilt ?

 

The feel above shows that left side tilt in the backswing comes from left knee bend + right hip back (and right leg straighter). And the secondary axis tilt comes from the shoulders rotating with the hips being restricted.

 

What other backswing tilt needs to be included ?

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome thread - the colors and fonts are mesmerizing.

Taylormade 2016 M2 10.5* - Blue Tensei CK 70X
Taylormade SLDR Mini 14* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 77X
Callaway Apex UT 18° - Project X 6.5
Callaway Tour Authentic X-Prototype 3-PW - Project X 6.5
Vokey SM7 Raw 52.08F
Vokey V-Grind 58.1
Taylor Made Spider Mini

Link to post
Share on other sites

which do people like better in terms of feel.

 

Feel: Shoulder turn + (left knee bend + right leg straighten) = Backswing

Feel: Shoulder turn + (left knee bend + right hip back) = Backswing

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

The knee bending/straightening does not guarantee left or right bend.

I said,

 

left knee bend + right hip back = left side bend.

 

Actually just try that. It is easy to feel.

 

left knee bend (towards the ball target line) + right hip back (right leg straigtens) = left side bend.

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome thread - the colors and fonts are mesmerizing.

Nothing helpful to say again.

Do you actually play golf ? TW 2K17 doesn't count.

Taylormade 2016 M2 10.5* - Blue Tensei CK 70X
Taylormade SLDR Mini 14* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 77X
Callaway Apex UT 18° - Project X 6.5
Callaway Tour Authentic X-Prototype 3-PW - Project X 6.5
Vokey SM7 Raw 52.08F
Vokey V-Grind 58.1
Taylor Made Spider Mini

Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of this feel drill is to show you what the lower body does in golf.

 

The effect of a deep right hip + left knee bend is what creates left side bend and it determines the shoulder plane.

 

Q: How does a golfer get a more upright swing plane ? A deep right hip !

 

Nevermind left shoulder down. The key is right hip DEEP.

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of this feel drill is to show you what the lower body does in golf.

 

The effect of a deep right hip + left knee bend is what creates left side bend and it determines the shoulder plane.

 

Q: How does a golfer get a more upright swing plane ? A deep right hip !

 

Nevermind left shoulder down. The key is right hip DEEP.

 

How deep is Hogan's hip here ?

 

swing_top.jpg

Taylormade 2016 M2 10.5* - Blue Tensei CK 70X
Taylormade SLDR Mini 14* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 77X
Callaway Apex UT 18° - Project X 6.5
Callaway Tour Authentic X-Prototype 3-PW - Project X 6.5
Vokey SM7 Raw 52.08F
Vokey V-Grind 58.1
Taylor Made Spider Mini

Link to post
Share on other sites

How deep is Hogan's hip here ?

 

His shoulder turn is as steep as his right hip is deep.

BOOM.

 

I'll take it that because you are unable to refute the theory .... the theory is correct then.

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

How deep is Hogan's hip here ?

 

His shoulder turn is as steep as his right hip is deep.

BOOM.

 

Not quite ... deep hip does not necessarily mean steep. Three for a quarter ...

Taylormade 2016 M2 10.5* - Blue Tensei CK 70X
Taylormade SLDR Mini 14* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 77X
Callaway Apex UT 18° - Project X 6.5
Callaway Tour Authentic X-Prototype 3-PW - Project X 6.5
Vokey SM7 Raw 52.08F
Vokey V-Grind 58.1
Taylor Made Spider Mini

Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of this feel drill is to show you what the lower body does in golf.

 

The effect of a deep right hip + left knee bend is what creates left side bend and it determines the shoulder plane.

 

Q: How does a golfer get a more upright swing plane ? A deep right hip !

 

Nevermind left shoulder down. The key is right hip DEEP.

 

I'm sorry but no. It doesn't determine the shoulder plane. Contribute to it? maybe. How does Jason Day make a steep shoulder turn?

 

You're not really wrong, you're just not close to being complete. Depth of hip turn alone does next to nothing to determine shoulder plane. Pelvic tilt, with right hip higher then left certainly encourages a steeper shoulder turn. But you can have an extremely deep right hip without pelvic tilt.

 

Your missing a huge component in that your spine doesn't just bend at the hips, there are way more variables at play.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pelvic tilt, with right hip higher then left certainly encourages a steeper shoulder turn.

 

But you can have an extremely deep right hip without pelvic tilt.

You'd have to make a mockery of the left knee for that to happen (ie. excessive rotation of the left knee vs. mostly left knee flexing).

The left knee bends MOSTLY towards the ball target line.

 

Deep right hip + Left knee bend is what creates Left side bend and that has alot to do with shoulder plane.

 

Did you try the drill ?

 

When you are fully shoulder turned and you add left knee flex + right hip back .... you don't feel your shoulder plane steepening ?

 

Surely you must !!!

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of this feel drill is to show you what the lower body does in golf.

 

The effect of a deep right hip + left knee bend is what creates left side bend and it determines the shoulder plane.

 

Q: How does a golfer get a more upright swing plane ? A deep right hip !

 

Nevermind left shoulder down. The key is right hip DEEP.

 

I'm sorry but no. It doesn't determine the shoulder plane. Contribute to it? maybe. How does Jason Day make a steep shoulder turn?

 

You're not really wrong, you're just not close to being complete. Depth of hip turn alone does next to nothing to determine shoulder plane. Pelvic tilt, with right hip higher then left certainly encourages a steeper shoulder turn. But you can have an extremely deep right hip without pelvic tilt.

 

Your missing a huge component in that your spine doesn't just bend at the hips, there are way more variables at play.

 

Correct ...

 

Jday-dtl-top.jpg

Taylormade 2016 M2 10.5* - Blue Tensei CK 70X
Taylormade SLDR Mini 14* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 77X
Callaway Apex UT 18° - Project X 6.5
Callaway Tour Authentic X-Prototype 3-PW - Project X 6.5
Vokey SM7 Raw 52.08F
Vokey V-Grind 58.1
Taylor Made Spider Mini

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pelvic tilt, with right hip higher then left certainly encourages a steeper shoulder turn.

 

But you can have an extremely deep right hip without pelvic tilt.

You'd have to make a mockery of the left knee for that to happen (ie. excessive rotation of the left knee vs. mostly left knee flexing).

The left knee bends MOSTLY towards the ball target line.

 

Deep right hip + Left knee bend is what creates Left side bend and that has alot to do with shoulder plane.

 

Did you try the drill ?

 

When you are fully shoulder turned and you add left knee flex + right hip back .... you don't feel your shoulder plane steepening ?

 

Surely you must !!!

 

Dude. First lets not pretend you discovered the wheel with your drill. I think my grandpa showed me that one 30 years ago. I'm fairly certain Monte has a video describing basically the same, heck I posted that "drill" in a thread not long ago. That said, it's a good feel for many I'm sure, myself included at one time.

 

To answer your question, unfortunately I'm capable of quite the mockery in my backswing. I suspect many others are as well. Try making a turn with a reverse hip sway and see what happens to your pelvic tilt. Again, not saying your wrong, but to say you've found the answer to steepen the shoulder turn is a bit simplistic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jason Day is like Jack Nicklaus ... both are great golfers despite their swings.

Does Jason Day have too wide a stance and more restricted hips than he should ? Yes.

 

 

Jason Day - Driver Slow Motion 16,000 FPS (2016)

 

Jason Day driver swing slow motion review

 

 

You like his swing ?

 

rj37l1.jpg

 

His P6 is suboptimal.

 

So his swing is free of any signs of too flat a shoulder turn ? You sure ?

 

The whole discussion is not relevant. One PGA Tour players has a crappy hip turn and an unknown shoulder turn and that proves anything ? No.

 

 

but to say you've found the answer to steepen the shoulder turn is a bit simplistic.

What are the other ways to steepen the shoulder turn then ?

 

The shoulder turn I am talking about is a shoulder turn that is perpendicular to the spine. I guess you could manipulate your arms such that your shoulder turn doesnt look too flat.

 

I'll see what others have suggested for ways to get the shoulders rotating less flat.

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jason Day is like Jack Nicklaus ... both are great golfers despite their swings.

Does Jason Day have too wide a stance and more restricted hips than he should ? Yes

 

You like his swing ?

 

rj37l1.jpg

 

His P6 is suboptimal.

 

 

Nicklaus and Day are perfect examples of why the parts have to match. I can guarantee you would take either swing in a heartbeat.

And there is no such thing as a suboptimal P6 position if it matches the rest of the swing. And what do you think would happen if

Day started to turn his hips a lot more in the backswing ?

 

A deep hip turn does nothing for someone with limited hip mobility if they can't get there. Try your concept out on some seniors and

get back to us.

 

What makes a golf instructor great is working with what the student bring to the table, not trying to drive a square peg in a round hole.

And that comes from years of experience on the lesson tee, not watching YT videos and reading Golf Digest articles.

 

Golf is not a one size fits all game.

Taylormade 2016 M2 10.5* - Blue Tensei CK 70X
Taylormade SLDR Mini 14* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 77X
Callaway Apex UT 18° - Project X 6.5
Callaway Tour Authentic X-Prototype 3-PW - Project X 6.5
Vokey SM7 Raw 52.08F
Vokey V-Grind 58.1
Taylor Made Spider Mini

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was say it can contribute. If good swings have the upper body moving BEFORE the lower body in the BS then how can the hips dictate what the shoulders do? I think it helps if hips are steeper, that might make it more likely that the shoulders turn steeper, but it doesn't guarantee it. I have a deep hip turn but my hips tend to turn too flat even though my shoulders are steeper. If hips dictate the shoulders than I should have a flat shoulder turn.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I still don't see why he says Jason days p6 is suboptimal, lol. You know how he hits it so high?

 

His hands are behind the turn and his shaft is high off the ground indicating a steeper than optimal approach. Both features are more often associated with amateurs. See the MORAD P6 thread. maybe this was just a bad swing ?

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a deep hip turn but my hips tend to turn too flat even though my shoulders are steeper. If hips dictate the shoulders than I should have a flat shoulder turn.

 

What happens to your left knee ?

Does it have more rotation than it should ? Or is it mostly flexing in the BS ?

 

 

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was say it can contribute. If good swings have the upper body moving BEFORE the lower body in the BS then how can the hips dictate what the shoulders do?

If you are turning the shoulders first and the hips haven't moved ... I'd say that is a flat start to a shoulder turn.

 

If the right hip eventually gets deep you can make up for the flat start.

 

For a given spinal angle at address, the only way to get your shoulders turning more vertical than what was dictated at address, you need to get your right hip as deep as possible. Any other manipulation like left shoulder down just creates shoulder motion that is not perpendicular to the spine.

Many Hands make Light Work. Many Eyes make Accurate Work. gWRX - the Greatest golf forum on the Internets :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...