Caveat Emptor for the new collectors - common pitfalls

[kaboboom]

I know the threads here are littered with sympathetic let downs to excited new owners of Sam Snead Blue Ridge clubs, pyratone hickories, or maple persimmons, so I thought I might compile a few serious watch-outs, though like timeshare purchases, most of these will arrive too late. I'll throw out a few, but it's also the exceptions that are worth of documenting if those are specific enough.

1. The seller believes they are persimmon simply because they are wood. Exception: Often, Laminate Maple is more robust, plays just fine, and for some companies, was their highest quality, including shafts.
   
2. The seller will often mistake pyratone sheathed steel shafts for hickory. Ask them to test with a magnet before purchase.
   
3. Great Golfers names are often on lesser quality clubs by the same manufacturer. Exceptions: (I know a few...this might make a long list...I'll stick one on here). Hagen Crenshaw Grinds are special and top quality.
   
4. Shafts matter, but most clubs can be re-shafted with a little DIY. Exception: If headed for display, shafts don't matter much.
   
5. Partial Sets: There is likely a similar full set in your future of identical or similar clubs. Exception: some partial sets are "grabbers", and you fill them in later. (long list, yeah, but maybe worth mention.)
   
6. Club makers started jacking down lofts in the 80's. Get a protractor if you can't find the specs. That 8 iron you needed to reach the pin has about the same loft as your modern gap wedge.
   
7. There's an difference between antique/vintage, and old. The sellers will always choose one of the former for their ad.
   
8. If the wife asks, point to her shoes (the nine dozen in the closet). At least you're only using up space in the garage. I mean, she only has two feet. Exception: Tread lightly if you have created a new magnetic pole via your stash.
   

[TimV]

:rap: :golfer: :superman: :fan_1:

 

I like it. A lot!

[S.william]

Forgive my ignorance, but from a playability standpoint, what's wrong with the blue ridges? I know they're laminate not block, and I know the slammer probably just let his name on them, as opposed to having a hand in design, but my 1&5 are both blue ridges, and I've found them to be long, accurate, and lovely to hit. Again, I dont care about value or prestige, and im sure there are much better made clubs out there, but is there something I dont know about them?

[raggal62]

I believe one reason the Blue Ridge line gets a bad wrap is due to the declining quality of clubs Wilson produced starting in the seventies. Their ClimaGuard laminates and sand cast irons were indeed low quality. Many were starter sets. They sold tons. But prior years offerings were actually quite good, especially those from the early sixties.

[kaboboom]

I merely used that as an example of how a famous pro may have been used to market department store clubs. There are lots of other examples, one being the more modern Walter Hagen sets. I actually have a full set of Blue Ridge, cut down for the kids. The laminate heads bear the same 4300, Clima-gard and Strata-Bloc decals, and the insert is reminiscent of the Haig laminates, so these could well be the best Wilson had to offer, so playability is not necessarily a problem. My opinion, however, is based on value to a would be collector. Sellers often believe their wares are rare and special because of the pro's name. I have no problem with what any retro golfer is willing to play...just trying to highlight what some would be retro should be willing to pay.

[kaboboom]

I believe one reason the Blue Ridge line gets a bad wrap is due to the declining quality of clubs Wilson produced starting in the seventies. Their ClimaGuard laminates and sand cast irons were indeed low quality. Many were starter sets. They sold tons. But prior years offerings were actually quite good, especially those from the early sixties.

 

Thanks...it is the exceptions that matter.

[TimV]

Speaking very generally in regard to vintage clubs you basically had two levels of equipment, Pro Line which was sold in Pro Shops and Store Line which was sold everywhere else. The Pro line equipment got the heads that came in right or almost exactly on spec and then received the best grade shafts available. The heads that were basically considered seconds then had a famous Pros name stamped into them (more often than not) and were shafted with lower grade shafts and shipped off to Sears, etc. I'm sure there are exceptions and I don't say this to knock anyones equipment. This thread was started to help novices getting started with vintage clubs. The fact is that if you want as playable equipment as possible you need to look for Pro Line clubs. If you are scrounging 2nd hand stores you can find them just as inexpensively as the Store Line clubs because the sellers don't know the difference and only us oddballs want them anyway!

[BIG STU]

Speaking very generally in regard to vintage clubs you basically had two levels of equipment, Pro Line which was sold in Pro Shops and Store Line which was sold everywhere else. The Pro line equipment got the heads that came in right or almost exactly on spec and then received the best grade shafts available. The heads that were basically considered seconds then had a famous Pros name stamped into them (more often than not) and were shafted with lower grade shafts and shipped off to Sears, etc. I'm sure there are exceptions and I don't say this to knock anyones equipment. This thread was started to help novices getting started with vintage clubs. The fact is that if you want as playable equipment as possible you need to look for Pro Line clubs. If you are scrounging 2nd hand stores you can find them just as inexpensively as the Store Line clubs because the sellers don't know the difference and only us oddballs want them anyway!

Tim that last sentence says it all as in us oddballs--- Least I know I am in good company

[Fellaheen51]

Speaking very generally in regard to vintage clubs you basically had two levels of equipment, Pro Line which was sold in Pro Shops and Store Line which was sold everywhere else. The Pro line equipment got the heads that came in right or almost exactly on spec and then received the best grade shafts available. The heads that were basically considered seconds then had a famous Pros name stamped into them (more often than not) and were shafted with lower grade shafts and shipped off to Sears, etc. I'm sure there are exceptions and I don't say this to knock anyones equipment. This thread was started to help novices getting started with vintage clubs. The fact is that if you want as playable equipment as possible you need to look for Pro Line clubs. If you are scrounging 2nd hand stores you can find them just as inexpensively as the Store Line clubs because the sellers don't know the difference and only us oddballs want them anyway!

Tim that last sentence says it all as in us oddballs--- Least I know I am in good company

 

Scroungers gonna scrounge. Helps to have some understanding what you are looking at. My response whenever asked what I'm looking for......"Don't know for sure. But I know it when I see it."

[kaboboom]

I followed a link to a collector's guide posted here that was very good, but one thing seemed a bit wrong when looking for clubs...that stiff shafts are more preferred. Aside from knowing one's own game, the shaft bands are often missing or illegible, and let's face it, golfers seeking older clubs to play are often older as well. I was wondering if some of you have developed a simple "flex test" for the field? As an example, if I find a club with a legible flex I prefer, I'll stress it a couple of times across my chest, then try the club I'm interested in, preferably, using a same numbered club. There may be a better way by looking at the flights, but I don't know it. Thanks in advance.

[Fellaheen51]

Your methodology is as good as the next. Rarely do I find an iron set totally devoid of bands to the point that flex cannot be ID'd. When in doubt, give a club the fully unscientific "waggle" test. What do they feel like? Found a couple of well used GRTG's with barely legible bands in the thrift bin recently. Took one out and did the in-store waggle, felt stiff as rebar. Browsing further, found another that had a barely legible band that indicated 6.5. Thus confirming what I was feeling. With a singular wood, its a guessing game. Although the propensity seems to be S flex.

 

But such is the nature of finding old(er) classic/vintage clubs. More often than than not, particularly with pro-line irons, I assume they are stiff flex unless proven otherwise. That's the typical "as found" flex. Even though the preference would be R, have to play them as you find them. Given the expense of changing shafts in set of irons that one maybe paid $20 for. Unrealistic. WTS, can coexist with LW and S better than with HW and S (ex. Hogan Apex 4 vs. Mac Tourney/Pro-Pel 1).

 

I never let shaft flex get in the way of a worthy acquisition.

[BIG STU]

I followed a link to a collector's guide posted here that was very good, but one thing seemed a bit wrong when looking for clubs...that stiff shafts are more preferred. Aside from knowing one's own game, the shaft bands are often missing or illegible, and let's face it, golfers seeking older clubs to play are often older as well. I was wondering if some of you have developed a simple "flex test" for the field? As an example, if I find a club with a legible flex I prefer, I'll stress it a couple of times across my chest, then try the club I'm interested in, preferably, using a same numbered club. There may be a better way by looking at the flights, but I don't know it. Thanks in advance.

I will grab the head and the grip and flex it some and usually I can tell the bend profile from there. I will also waggle it some. All of that is from experience and feel. A lot of times especially with drivers I will put the head on the ground and grab the grip and give a little 45* push. Again with experience I can tell the difference of Pro Pel shafts by looking at the steps. I also do TT shafts by looking at the length of the tip section. Now it is hard to do on TT 350 diameter shafts because the tip section has an altogether different tip profile than a 370 tip. But I have been doing this crap so long I can tell. If you mess with clubs long enough you will be able to do the same thing. No real rocket science involved like some want you to believe especially on the Clubmakers Forums. You will learn with time and experience

[BIG STU]

Your methodology is as good as the next. Rarely do I find an iron set totally devoid of bands to the point that flex cannot be ID'd. When in doubt, give a club the fully unscientific "waggle" test. What do they feel like? Found a couple of well used GRTG's with barely legible bands in the thrift bin recently. Took one out and did the in-store waggle, felt stiff as rebar. Browsing further, found another that had a barely legible band that indicated 6.5. Thus confirming what I was feeling. With a singular wood, its a guessing game. Although the propensity seems to be S flex.

 

But such is the nature of finding old(er) classic/vintage clubs. More often than than not, particularly with pro-line irons, I assume they are stiff flex unless proven otherwise. That's the typical "as found" flex. Even though the preference would be R, have to play them as you find them. Given the expense of changing shafts in set of irons that one maybe paid $20 for. Unrealistic. WTS, can coexist with LW and S better than with HW and S (ex. Hogan Apex 4 vs. Mac Tourney/Pro-Pel 1).

 

I never let shaft flex get in the way of a worthy acquisition.

Yep never ever believe a shaft band or label no matter the era of the club or brand. This is dishonest as heck and I absolutely will not do it but I have enough shaft labels to make any shaft what you want it to be. There are also a rash of idiots making fake shaft labels especially True Temper Tour Issue ones. We had some idiots selling them down here a while back. I know one guy that bought a set and stuck them on a set of Harrison Lite shafts. I told him he was a idiot that those were not Tour Issue TT shafts. I told him in certain circles around here he would get laughed off the planet because some in the know could tell they were NOT TT S-400 TI shafts by just looking. Besides I built the frigging clubs and know what was in them. BTW The True Temper company knows about the fake labels not just around here but all over.. Like you I never let a shaft flex get in the way of a worthy acquisition

[TimV]

I build custom clubs. Usually just a handful of sets a year but out of that at least one guy is going to ask me to make his shaft label show stiff when it's really a regular flex.

Ego over everything.

Remember kiddies that in golf it's never How. Only How Many.

Doesn't matter if I have to hit a 5 iron to equal your distance with a 7 if I'm on and you're not.

Makes no difference if you out drive me by 50 yards if I'm in the hole in fewer strokes.

And it sure the crap makes no difference what flex the clubs I used are that got me there.

[BIG STU]

I build custom clubs. Usually just a handful of sets a year but out of that at least one guy is going to ask me to make his shaft label show stiff when it's really a regular flex.

Ego over everything.

Remember kiddies that in golf it's never How. Only How Many.

Doesn't matter if I have to hit a 5 iron to equal your distance with a 7 if I'm on and you're not.

Makes no difference if you out drive me by 50 yards if I'm in the hole in fewer strokes.

And it sure the crap makes no difference what flex the clubs I used are that got me there.

My sentiments exactly. Actually back in the day I used to screw with people Psyc Ops as I used to call it. I had a set of Spalding bird on the Ball 67 Top Flite irons. In reality they had X-100s in them. In the back room at the old man's shop I found a roll of shaft labels. I took the X-100 labels off and used Ladies Lite shaft flex on them. Had everyone believing I was hitting ladies flex shafts. Most of the time First thing I did was scrape the labels off. Did not want anyone to know what shaft I was playing. Good example I have a 50s Mac 3 wood that is pristine I found with a cover and all on the scrap pile last summer. It has a shaft label TT X-1000. It ain't trust me because I can hit it. Checked it on my friend's machine and it checks up as a stiffer medium. In the same lot I found a pristine Toney Penna driver and the label says it is a S-400. It ain't either it checks out about the same as the 3 wood. That was one strange lot of clubs I found that day. That was the hoard that had 3 other Penna Drivers and 3 full sets of matching serial number Izett woods. Also had 18 various Wilson JP wedges. I think that day I bought a total of 45 clubs including two TP Mills putters. Someone was screwing around with shaft labels on several clubs in that hoard