Pete Dye Best Ever (?)

[Darth Putter]

He's certainly near the top for me.

 

I like his influence on course design as a reaction to the long and boring Post World War II era.

[Darth Putter]

How many times has Sawgrass been redone? They started the year after the first tournament was held there. Complete redo after last year.

 

Augusta National, another place where they hold a top level golf tournament every year, laughs.

 

I don't recall the TPC ever switching its nines.

[Stylez]

I don't care if it's a blank canvas or "natural", a good golf course, is a good gold course. Just like the women we all chase, there is plenty out there for everyone. We all have our own wants and needs and varying opinions. Just like them women, courses come in all different shapes, sizes, and a level of "difficulty" and we still get f***** either way.

[youraway2]

How many times has Sawgrass been redone? They started the year after the first tournament was held there. Complete redo after last year.

The TPC Stadium Course resides across the street from Sawgrass, a real gem.

[bladehunter]

The man would be lost without a fleet of bulldozers. Wildly overrated, IMO.

 

That's what architecture is. Pete Dye is a master at building supreme tests of golfing skills. He is easily the greatest modern day course architect.

 

I don't care how long a course has been around, or if it "fits" into the surrounding natural terrain, it's nothing without good holes.

 

I respectfully disagree with the fitting a natural terrain, and it's why I don't like Pete Dye. He comes in, flattens the land, and enforces his will on it.

 

I rather play a course that a guy has toned the natural contours of the land any day. Those designers have to find the routing, they can't come up with it without ever seeing the land. They tend to come up with more interesting routings, holes, and create some truly visually stunning golf holes.

 

Guys that flatten it all then make what they want don't have as much skill IMO.

I see what you mean but wouldn't that mean someone who uses the terrain has less skill? Since it's kinda already laid out? Someone who starts with a blank canvas has actually created everything, thus showing how much skill they have

 

 

Takes much more skill to preserve what's there and route a course on it.

 

Similar to building houses vs restoring a Victorian masterpiece. Any idiot can build a house from scratch. Takes an artist to preserve what's there and yet rebuild it at the same time. Great golf courses are there before being " built".

[bladehunter]

I don't care if it's a blank canvas or "natural", a good golf course, is a good gold course. Just like the women we all chase, there is plenty out there for everyone. We all have our own wants and needs and varying opinions. Just like them women, courses come in all different shapes, sizes, and a level of "difficulty" and we still get f***** either way.

 

Agree with the women ( or men) analogy. Some roll out of bed gorgeous. Others can paint , tweek, nip tuck etc all day and they won't be gorgeous. Courses are the same. Some are and some aren't.

[Jagpilotohio]

I generally despise Dye designs.

Miss your spot by an inch and your looking at bogey or worse. Far too much luck involved for my taste. Wild unnatural undulations. Stupid railroad ties everywhere and too many situations where slight misses make it essentially impossible to save par.

 

First time I played PGA west stadium with a good friend just after college I realized that in person i didn't t care for Dye design ideas. This is just one example of countless that could be included.

 

Number 16 with its giant 19 foot deep green side bunker is truly a stupid design idea. Most people simply can not hit out of it onto the green. That's dumb.

My friend was a 6 handicap golfer that had played on his high school team. Strong guy with a good sand game. Could not get out. Tried three times. Opened a 60 and swung as hard as he could. No go. Had to play backwards toward the fairway. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

 

The thing that was most irritating was that he had hit a beautiful 3 wood ONTO the green with just enough hook spin that it just BARELY trickled off into that bunker. He went from an eagle putt to making a 9 by a matter of a couple revolutions of the ball and some bad luck. No thanks.

 

[warfelg]

The man would be lost without a fleet of bulldozers. Wildly overrated, IMO.

 

That's what architecture is. Pete Dye is a master at building supreme tests of golfing skills. He is easily the greatest modern day course architect.

 

I don't care how long a course has been around, or if it "fits" into the surrounding natural terrain, it's nothing without good holes.

 

I respectfully disagree with the fitting a natural terrain, and it's why I don't like Pete Dye. He comes in, flattens the land, and enforces his will on it.

 

I rather play a course that a guy has toned the natural contours of the land any day. Those designers have to find the routing, they can't come up with it without ever seeing the land. They tend to come up with more interesting routings, holes, and create some truly visually stunning golf holes.

 

Guys that flatten it all then make what they want don't have as much skill IMO.

I see what you mean but wouldn't that mean someone who uses the terrain has less skill? Since it's kinda already laid out? Someone who starts with a blank canvas has actually created everything, thus showing how much skill they have

 

 

Takes much more skill to preserve what's there and route a course on it.

 

Similar to building houses vs restoring a Victorian masterpiece. Any idiot can build a house from scratch. Takes an artist to preserve what's there and yet rebuild it at the same time. Great golf courses are there before being " built".

 

Agreed.

 

It takes a very skilled eye to notice on the land what would make a good green complex, a good teeing area, and then to get from A to B with minimal disruption. That means having an eye for what land would have to move, how much, which way, how that effects the movement of the ball, how that effect drainage, ect.

 

Someone who works with a flatter piece of land or comes in and flattens is doesn't have to worry about that. It takes less skill and imagination to just say "I want a mound here" or "I want a bunker there just because".

 

There's stories and rumors of designers like Dye that have come up with the entire course without ever seeing the property. Then on the flip you got guys like Coore and Crenshaw who are there so much they might as well buy land and build a house.

[toddnt]

Thats the great thing about his courses... You should know the course/designer before playing and paying your cash. A lot say tricked up, I say kick in the teeth and test of golf.... Greatest designer..

[Hawkeye77]

The bodies of work of Harry Colt, Tom Morris and Alister MacKenzie each overshadow Pete Dye.

 

Nicklaus' best courses are better than Dye's as well and Crenshaw/Coore will surpass him.

[Gem]

I have never played in the US so not seen these courses close up but whilst they can sometimes make exciting viewing I don't really like courses like Sawgrass, Doral or Atlanta (Bradley PGA course) with far too much artificial water hazards or having to be inch perfect on approach shots or risk rolling into trouble.

 

 

I agree with some of the other posters in that the greatest skill a designer has is to be able to visualise holes using the natural terrain with the least amount of earth moving.

[jmck]

The man would be lost without a fleet of bulldozers. Wildly overrated, IMO.

 

That's what architecture is. Pete Dye is a master at building supreme tests of golfing skills. He is easily the greatest modern day course architect.

 

I don't care how long a course has been around, or if it "fits" into the surrounding natural terrain, it's nothing without good holes.

 

Disagree. I grew up playing competitively in southern New England. We basically played a rotation of Ross, Tillinghast, and Cornish courses. Twice a year we'd go down to Florida and play courses done by Dye and his disciples. They were uniformly garbage compared to what we were used to, and they were jokes when it came to a true "test of golfing skills." Up north we played courses that tested our skill; we'd go down to Florida and we'd joke that we were going to go test our luck.

 

You could've said "He is easily the greatest modern day course architect" in about 1980. He's loooooonnnnnnngggggg been surpassed by folks like Coore/Crenshaw/Doak/Kidd/Hanse. Do those guys use bulldozers? Sure, you got me on a technicality. But they could build equally great courses with shovels. I really don't think you can say that about Dye. You could call Pete Dye "influential" and I'd have no problem with that, but when it comes to pure golf course architecture he's all hat and no cattle, ie all style and no substance. At least IMO.

 

Not sure if anyone else will get this analogy, but you can go to Amsterdam and check out a bunch of very famous artists in very good museums. Pete Dye is like Dali--and there's something to be said for that--but what I want in golf course architecture is someone with the touch of Monet. They're just worlds apart.

[nochct1]

Not a Dye fan. I can appreciate his skill as a course architect, but I'm not a fan of some of the tricks he uses on his golf courses. The Straits course is a good example. There's just too many holes where it's very deceiving off the tee.

 

I like a lot of the old designers. Seth Raynor, CB McDonald, Tillinghast.

[AceCatKY]

Used to enjoy playing a Pete Dye designed track in Lexington, KY when I lived there. Kearney Hill. Can definitely see his design elements in it. The pic below is quite similar to 18 at TPC Sawgrass.

[stickfish]

Not a Dye fan. I can appreciate his skill as a course architect, but I'm not a fan of some of the tricks he uses on his golf courses. The Straits course is a good example. There's just too many holes where it's very deceiving off the tee.

 

I like a lot of the old designers. Seth Raynor, CB McDonald, Tillinghast.

Kind of hard to lay all the blame - or rewards on the architect alone as they are employed by an owner, or worse yet a group of them. Surely Herb had much to say about the Kohler layouts as had the the PGA whom have decimated Sawgrass IMHO. I have enjoyed many early Dye designs who with the input of his wife create some memorable holes - albeit at times not all positive. And at the end of a destination round what I really want is for a layout to impart some lasting memories. I might suggest for those that are interested to play some Dye designs that did not have the onus of owner whims per se so much i. e. Kampen, Tippecanoe CC, Eagle Creek, etc venture out and discover what he really had to offer. And then I might also suggest playing some of his prodigy's work - for me Tim Liddy and see his real influence in the design arena.

Cheers

<><

[shotmark]

Not a Dye fan. I can appreciate his skill as a course architect, but I'm not a fan of some of the tricks he uses on his golf courses. The Straits course is a good example. There's just too many holes where it's very deceiving off the tee.

 

I like a lot of the old designers. Seth Raynor, CB McDonald, Tillinghast.

Kind of hard to lay all the blame - or rewards on the architect alone as they are employed by an owner, or worse yet a group of them. Surely Herb had much to say about the Kohler layouts as had the the PGA whom have decimated Sawgrass IMHO. I have enjoyed many early Dye designs who with the input of his wife create some memorable holes - albeit at times not all positive. And at the end of a destination round what I really want is for a layout to impart some lasting memories. I might suggest for those that are interested to play some Dye designs that did not have the onus of owner whims per se so much i. e. Kampen, Tippecanoe CC, Eagle Creek, etc venture out and discover what he really had to offer. And then I might also suggest playing some of his prodigy's work - for me Tim Liddy and see his real influence in the design arena.

Cheers

<><

Decimated? I didn't think the length had altered significantly, certainly not reduced by a tenth.

[lhahn]

"Golf is not a fair game, so why build a course fair?"

 

Not sure if this is a real Dye quote but they mentioned it on the broadcast.

 

Amazing logic Pete....

[stickfish]

Not a Dye fan. I can appreciate his skill as a course architect, but I'm not a fan of some of the tricks he uses on his golf courses. The Straits course is a good example. There's just too many holes where it's very deceiving off the tee.

 

I like a lot of the old designers. Seth Raynor, CB McDonald, Tillinghast.

Kind of hard to lay all the blame - or rewards on the architect alone as they are employed by an owner, or worse yet a group of them. Surely Herb had much to say about the Kohler layouts as had the the PGA whom have decimated Sawgrass IMHO. I have enjoyed many early Dye designs who with the input of his wife create some memorable holes - albeit at times not all positive. And at the end of a destination round what I really want is for a layout to impart some lasting memories. I might suggest for those that are interested to play some Dye designs that did not have the onus of owner whims per se so much i. e. Kampen, Tippecanoe CC, Eagle Creek, etc venture out and discover what he really had to offer. And then I might also suggest playing some of his prodigy's work - for me Tim Liddy and see his real influence in the design arena.

Cheers

<><

Decimated? I didn't think the length had altered significantly, certainly not reduced by a tenth.

Didn't mention length on the Sawgrass changes, although most everyone assumes that alone is the most significant impact and certainly can be. The approach lines to the greens along with altererations to the greeens themselves have been radically altered since the course was open. On the plus side the PGA did build a swank clubhouse.

[shotmark]

Not a Dye fan. I can appreciate his skill as a course architect, but I'm not a fan of some of the tricks he uses on his golf courses. The Straits course is a good example. There's just too many holes where it's very deceiving off the tee.

 

I like a lot of the old designers. Seth Raynor, CB McDonald, Tillinghast.

Kind of hard to lay all the blame - or rewards on the architect alone as they are employed by an owner, or worse yet a group of them. Surely Herb had much to say about the Kohler layouts as had the the PGA whom have decimated Sawgrass IMHO. I have enjoyed many early Dye designs who with the input of his wife create some memorable holes - albeit at times not all positive. And at the end of a destination round what I really want is for a layout to impart some lasting memories. I might suggest for those that are interested to play some Dye designs that did not have the onus of owner whims per se so much i. e. Kampen, Tippecanoe CC, Eagle Creek, etc venture out and discover what he really had to offer. And then I might also suggest playing some of his prodigy's work - for me Tim Liddy and see his real influence in the design arena.

Cheers

<><

Decimated? I didn't think the length had altered significantly, certainly not reduced by a tenth.

Didn't mention length on the Sawgrass changes, although most everyone assumes that alone is the most significant impact and certainly can be. The approach lines to the greens along with altererations to the greeens themselves have been radically altered since the course was open. On the plus side the PGA did build a swank clubhouse.

 

You said decimated which means reduced by one tenth.

[warfelg]

Used to enjoy playing a Pete Dye designed track in Lexington, KY when I lived there. Kearney Hill. Can definitely see his design elements in it. The pic below is quite similar to 18 at TPC Sawgrass.

 

I've played that same hole at 3 Dye courses in PA and at 2 courses in VA so far.

 

Hence why I'm not impressed with Dye as an architect/designer. He's built the same hole at 7 different places between the two of us. I've also played the island green at 5 courses not named TPC Sawgrass Stadium Course. Every Pete Dye course I've also played has the same hole as #1 Sawgrass somewhere in the routing.

[Need4spd]

Used to enjoy playing a Pete Dye designed track in Lexington, KY when I lived there. Kearney Hill. Can definitely see his design elements in it. The pic below is quite similar to 18 at TPC Sawgrass.

 

I've played that same hole at 3 Dye courses in PA and at 2 courses in VA so far.

 

Hence why I'm not impressed with Dye as an architect/designer. He's built the same hole at 7 different places between the two of us. I've also played the island green at 5 courses not named TPC Sawgrass Stadium Course. Every Pete Dye course I've also played has the same hole as #1 Sawgrass somewhere in the routing.

 

It's also the 18th hole at ASU's home course here in Phoenix.

[Vindog]

Not a Dye fan. I can appreciate his skill as a course architect, but I'm not a fan of some of the tricks he uses on his golf courses. The Straits course is a good example. There's just too many holes where it's very deceiving off the tee.

 

I like a lot of the old designers. Seth Raynor, CB McDonald, Tillinghast.

Kind of hard to lay all the blame - or rewards on the architect alone as they are employed by an owner, or worse yet a group of them. Surely Herb had much to say about the Kohler layouts as had the the PGA whom have decimated Sawgrass IMHO. I have enjoyed many early Dye designs who with the input of his wife create some memorable holes - albeit at times not all positive. And at the end of a destination round what I really want is for a layout to impart some lasting memories. I might suggest for those that are interested to play some Dye designs that did not have the onus of owner whims per se so much i. e. Kampen, Tippecanoe CC, Eagle Creek, etc venture out and discover what he really had to offer. And then I might also suggest playing some of his prodigy's work - for me Tim Liddy and see his real influence in the design arena.

Cheers

<><

Decimated? I didn't think the length had altered significantly, certainly not reduced by a tenth.

Didn't mention length on the Sawgrass changes, although most everyone assumes that alone is the most significant impact and certainly can be. The approach lines to the greens along with altererations to the greeens themselves have been radically altered since the course was open. On the plus side the PGA did build a swank clubhouse.

 

You said decimated which means reduced by one tenth.

 

Lol. Is this for real?

[AceCatKY]

Used to enjoy playing a Pete Dye designed track in Lexington, KY when I lived there. Kearney Hill. Can definitely see his design elements in it. The pic below is quite similar to 18 at TPC Sawgrass.

 

I've played that same hole at 3 Dye courses in PA and at 2 courses in VA so far.

 

Hence why I'm not impressed with Dye as an architect/designer. He's built the same hole at 7 different places between the two of us. I've also played the island green at 5 courses not named TPC Sawgrass Stadium Course. Every Pete Dye course I've also played has the same hole as #1 Sawgrass somewhere in the routing.

 

Yeah, Kearney has a peninsula green par 3 and several others that you always see on his tracks. At least he's consistent lol.

[wayupnorth]

the guy uses more railroad ties than the railroad's do.

 

and that's a no.

[gvogel]

I generally despise Dye designs.

Miss your spot by an inch and your looking at bogey or worse. Far too much luck involved for my taste. Wild unnatural undulations. Stupid railroad ties everywhere and too many situations where slight misses make it essentially impossible to save par.

 

First time I played PGA west stadium with a good friend just after college I realized that in person i didn't t care for Dye design ideas. This is just one example of countless that could be included.

 

Number 16 with its giant 19 foot deep green side bunker is truly a stupid design idea. Most people simply can not hit out of it onto the green. That's dumb.

My friend was a 6 handicap golfer that had played on his high school team. Strong guy with a good sand game. Could not get out. Tried three times. Opened a 60 and swung as hard as he could. No go. Had to play backwards toward the fairway. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

 

The thing that was most irritating was that he had hit a beautiful 3 wood ONTO the green with just enough hook spin that it just BARELY trickled off into that bunker. He went from an eagle putt to making a 9 by a matter of a couple revolutions of the ball and some bad luck. No thanks.

 

I agree. I have played TPC Sawgrass and Harbor Town. I wouldn't pay to go back. Why bother? You get out of position, you make bogey or worse. Or much worse.

 

I would much rather play a Golden Age course, or something from Coore and Crenshaw. They are more natural, and more fun.

[gvogel]

Not a Dye fan. I can appreciate his skill as a course architect, but I'm not a fan of some of the tricks he uses on his golf courses. The Straits course is a good example. There's just too many holes where it's very deceiving off the tee.

 

I like a lot of the old designers. Seth Raynor, CB McDonald, Tillinghast.

Kind of hard to lay all the blame - or rewards on the architect alone as they are employed by an owner, or worse yet a group of them. Surely Herb had much to say about the Kohler layouts as had the the PGA whom have decimated Sawgrass IMHO. I have enjoyed many early Dye designs who with the input of his wife create some memorable holes - albeit at times not all positive. And at the end of a destination round what I really want is for a layout to impart some lasting memories. I might suggest for those that are interested to play some Dye designs that did not have the onus of owner whims per se so much i. e. Kampen, Tippecanoe CC, Eagle Creek, etc venture out and discover what he really had to offer. And then I might also suggest playing some of his prodigy's work - for me Tim Liddy and see his real influence in the design arena.

Cheers

<><

Decimated? I didn't think the length had altered significantly, certainly not reduced by a tenth.

Didn't mention length on the Sawgrass changes, although most everyone assumes that alone is the most significant impact and certainly can be. The approach lines to the greens along with altererations to the greeens themselves have been radically altered since the course was open. On the plus side the PGA did build a swank clubhouse.

 

You said decimated which means reduced by one tenth.

 

That's the narrow definition. There are others.

[Sean2]

I never cared much for Pete Dye. In an interview a few years ago on Golf Channel he said he likes to make golf courses difficult because "golf is not supposed to be fair". That might be fine for the professional, but for the average golfer, who finds golf to difficult enough, this kind of course design philosophy is misguided at best.

 

On PGA Tour radio last week Ben Crenshaw was saying that a good course design will offer a good test for the accomplished golfer and yet be fair for the recreational golfer.

[moonshine]

Jason Days second shot into number 2 Friday was perfectly struck and should've been an 8 foot eagle....

Instead it rolled 15 yards off the green because it rolled an inch too far on the ground...

 

No thanks Mr Dye.

 

-Chris

Yeah and apparently no 2 course @ Pinehurst is even more penal...double no thanks.

 

edit: I got to play Pete Dye golf club shortly after it opened...amazing place and never gets a mention.

[nochct1]

Not a Dye fan. I can appreciate his skill as a course architect, but I'm not a fan of some of the tricks he uses on his golf courses. The Straits course is a good example. There's just too many holes where it's very deceiving off the tee.

 

I like a lot of the old designers. Seth Raynor, CB McDonald, Tillinghast.

Kind of hard to lay all the blame - or rewards on the architect alone as they are employed by an owner, or worse yet a group of them. Surely Herb had much to say about the Kohler layouts as had the the PGA whom have decimated Sawgrass IMHO. I have enjoyed many early Dye designs who with the input of his wife create some memorable holes - albeit at times not all positive. And at the end of a destination round what I really want is for a layout to impart some lasting memories. I might suggest for those that are interested to play some Dye designs that did not have the onus of owner whims per se so much i. e. Kampen, Tippecanoe CC, Eagle Creek, etc venture out and discover what he really had to offer. And then I might also suggest playing some of his prodigy's work - for me Tim Liddy and see his real influence in the design arena.

Cheers

<><

 

Thank you for the recommendations. I'm going to take look at some of the courses you mentioned.

[Santiago Golf]

Alister Mackenzie or Donald Ross

Tom Doak is the best architect alive