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External rotation in rear shoulder a MAJOR key to consistent ball striking?


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Any drills to help feel the proper external rotation of the right shoulder?

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I'm still learning to overcome years of thinking internal rotation (not really through research but just what I felt) gives me more power to a completely different swing with proper hip rotation and ER of the right shoulder through impact. Sometimes I even feel like holding the left wrist like DJ or Koepka allows me to make that turn and reduce the flipping/hooding (obviously) that I do to compensate for other swing flaws. It's really great control and feels like I can hit the ball in a precise direction, a feeling I've never quite had in that way since it's curving much less (another thing I'm trying to reduce, side spin, which actually is coming down through some swing changes through my instructor (finally got one)).

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My definition of "the pivot" includes the trail upper arm as a part of "the pivot". If pivoting is torque generating, then my definition is justified. Monte's Bump, Dump and Turn scheme encompasses the three torques around three perpendicular axes at the swing center. So, "the pivot" is a 3-axis machine for a 3-d golf swing - the mechanically sensible "Golf Machine". The Bump and the Turn are obvious while the Dump is not. The Bump tilts the spine, the Turn rotates the torso and the shoulder girdle around the spine. So the Bump torque and the Turn torque are orthogonal that is their axes are perpendicular to one another. To carry the concept of orthogonality further, the Dump torque should be orthogonal to the Bump torque and the Turn torque, that is the Dump torque should have the shoulder girdle as the axis with the trail upper arm as the torque generator while it constrained to move perpendicular to the shoulder girdle energized by its deltoid and triceps.

 

So, the hands and hence the club are propelled by these three orthogonal torques. They are independent but yet nested. Independence means each torque can be generated independent of the others. Nesting means the Bump tilts the axis of the Turn and the Turn turns the axis of the Dump. Other than nesting, independence also means non-interference - activation of one torque would not incapacitate the others. It is the golfer's control to match these torques in terms of timing and strength, for example, a faster and stronger Turn should be matched by a faster and stronger Dump. We must recall the drill that Bush Harmon prescribed to Tiger and that of Justin Rose practice drill in bringing the hands down before the turn. My best guess is that they were consciously grilling the Dump to match their powerful Turn.

 

Under this 3-axis golf machine, the lead shoulder and the trail elbow are free (universal) joints where as the trail shoulder is a hinge constrained the upper arm to rotate with the shoulder girdle as the axis. So the lead arm and the trail forearm including the hands and club belong in the inertial domain - objects to be propelled or swung by the three torques. To implement the trail elbow as closest to a universal joint and maintain the independence of the torques, we must turn the pit of the trail elbow skyward and allow for free internal and external rotation of the trail forearm in relation to the trail upper arm in addition to the closing and opening of the trail elbow angle.

 

I hope Monte would not mind my interpretation of his scheme.

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I've only just been working on this very thing - due to seeing this youtube here on golfwrx...

 

 

 

I have a tendency to hook so his advice to get that toe more up at p3 backswing was interesting for me.

Worked a treat at the range and also at the course yesterday, until i got really tired and reverted to old habits... the old habit being right shoulder going to IR at transition - awful.

 

A little bit of right arm turn to get to a more toe up at p3 BUT also for me, i have to really feel/intend and try to get a bit more external rotation at transition - this feels very different, and requires 'faith'... so the range prractice helped confirm wjat a dramatic improvement it does for me.

 

Not to try to 'hold on' to that external rotation all the way to impact a la 'hold the lag' but definitely takes an intent to increase or hold it at end of backswing to transition... this then seems to have some excellent cascadeing effects on my swing.

 

It gets the right elbow in front ( or less behind ;-). ) , shallows the shaft, encourages a hip bump to the left 'naturally' apng with a nice secondary tilt move... and a free unstuck turn through impact and follow through - i can even hit some push/ little,blocks rather than a nasty pull hook.

 

 

ps for me it feels like an exagerrated 'waiter holding a tray' in the rght hand - actually this ER move also seems to get that right wrist into the 'good' bent back position...

 

I also made a poor drive where I could actually feel that incorrect shoulder move, going to IR.... useful,in itself, to finally be aware of just what is the root bad move... rahther than making a nasty pull hook and wondering just what or why it happened

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My definition of "the pivot" includes the trail upper arm as a part of "the pivot". If pivoting is torque generating, then my definition is justified. Monte's Bump, Dump and Turn scheme encompasses the three torques around three perpendicular axes at the swing center. So, "the pivot" is a 3-axis machine for a 3-d golf swing - the mechanically sensible "Golf Machine". The Bump and the Turn are obvious while the Dump is not. The Bump tilts the spine, the Turn rotates the torso and the shoulder girdle around the spine. So the Bump torque and the Turn torque are orthogonal that is their axes are perpendicular to one another. To carry the concept of orthogonality further, the Dump torque should be orthogonal to the Bump torque and the Turn torque, that is the Dump torque should have the shoulder girdle as the axis with the trail upper arm as the torque generator while it constrained to move perpendicular to the shoulder girdle energized by its deltoid and triceps.

 

So, the hands and hence the club are propelled by these three orthogonal torques. They are independent but yet nested. Independence means each torque can be generated independent of the others. Nesting means the Bump tilts the axis of the Turn and the Turn turns the axis of the Dump. Other than nesting, independence also means non-interference - activation of one torque would not incapacitate the others. It is the golfer's control to match these torques in terms of timing and strength, for example, a faster and stronger Turn should be matched by a faster and stronger Dump. We must recall the drill that Bush Harmon prescribed to Tiger and that of Jason Rose practice drill in bringing the hands down before the turn. My best guess is that they were consciously grilling the Dump to match their powerful Turn.

 

Under this 3-axis golf machine, the lead shoulder and the trail elbow are free (universal) joints where as the trail shoulder is a hinge constrained the upper arm to rotate with the shoulder girdle as the axis. So the lead arm and the trail forearm including the hands and club belong in the inertial domain - objects to be propelled or swung by the three torques. To implement the trail elbow as closest to a universal joint and maintain the independence of the torques, we must turn the pit of the trail elbow skyward and allow for free internal and external rotation of the trail forearm in relation to the trail upper arm in addition to the closing and opening of the trail elbow angle.

 

I hope Monte would not mind my interpretation of his scheme.

 

The above is one reason golf is complex, you cant do that whats explained.

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You can't play with an externally rotated rear humerus throughout the entire swing unless you want to slice it or shank it. Even guys like Dustin Johnson who stay externally rotated well into their downswing have to eventually go internal. The movement from external to internal is possibly the most powerful move in all of sport. A baseball pitch and tennis serve are great examples.

 

If you want a stable release while going from external to internal, you might want to pay attention to your lead shoulder. If you keep the lead shoulder internally rotated as the rear goes internal, you have a "holding" action. It's the opposing action--rear going internal and the lead keeping internal and resisting going external that provides the stability of release. Some instructors aptly call this a Drive Hold release as the rear drives while the lead holds. This is the action used by PGA Tour players like DJ, Jordan and Rahm. The Mike Austin swing fans don't like this type of release. They prefer letting everything go.

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You can't play with an externally rotated rear humerus throughout the entire swing unless you want to slice it or shank it. Even guys like Dustin Johnson who stay externally rotated well into their downswing have to eventually go internal. The movement from external to internal is possibly the most powerful move in all of sport. A baseball pitch and tennis serve are great examples.

 

If you want a stable release while going from external to internal, you might want to pay attention to your lead shoulder. If you keep the lead shoulder internally rotated as the rear goes internal, you have a "holding" action. It's the opposing action--rear going internal and the lead keeping internal and resisting going external that provides the stability of release. Some instructors aptly call this a Drive Hold release as the rear drives while the lead holds. This is the action used by PGA Tour players like DJ, Jordan and Rahm. The Mike Austin swing fans don't like this type of release. They prefer letting everything go.

 

Keeping the lead shoulder internally rotated is begging to chicken wing. Speith is a good example.

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And you think a chicken wing is a bad thing? He won two majors in a row and was #1 in the world doing it....

 

I think 99% of instructors believe the chicken wing is bad. The other 1% probably believe the world is flat.

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  • 3 months later...

I've been working on this concept and one thing I've heard is that sometimes, to change something in the downswing, you need to do the opposite in the backswing. (Check out Eric Cogorno's video on Youtube for an example of this

... In this particular case, I typically set up with my rear shoulder already a bit externally rotated, but then have problem in transition feeling that external rotation occur. Something I've experimented with is setting up at address with a little bit of rear shoulder internal rotation, then really feeling the shoulder externally rotate as I transition. The results thus far are promising but something I will definitely ask my instructor about at my next session.
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Crossfield talked about this in his daily vlog yesterday and showed a great way to get the feel for it:

 

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Go skip some flat rocks on a pond. You'll get the feeling.

 

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Any thoughts on presetting ER in the right arm at address? Anyone experimented with this?

I have, and I don't love it. Presetting positions at address necessarily implies a small degree of tension, and my results are just never quite optimal whenever I do anything like this (but especially with shoulders, elbows, or wrists/hands).

 

Generally speaking, whenever the topic of "pretensioning" comes up, I fall into the camp that prefers "loading" or "triggering" to get into a coiled or tensed-up position to fire at the ball—in other words, a dynamic move to get into an optimal hitting position.

 

A bow-and-arrow analogy is useful here. At address, the bow is in a neutral state, and the drawstring is in its most relaxed (but fully connected) position. During the backswing, the drawstring is pulled backwards, adding a ton of natural tension.

 

For the strongest and fastest launch, you want to pull that drawstring back as far as possible without breaking the string OR affecting your ability to aim the bow.

 

As you release the drawstring and launch the arrow, you are really just trying to hold everything steady while the tension is released, sending the arrow hurtling towards the target.

 

Bottom line here is that tension/presetting at address is more likely to inhibit your ability to create an efficient coil and store maximum tension in the backswing. Of course, this will also affect your ability to release this energy effectively on the downswing, as an inefficient coil leads to an inefficient release.

 

i have been using the ER at setup with my recent swing with really good results. I get the right elbow forward and it keeps me connected and my shoulder ER.

 

I could try not starting with it, but it seems like my distance is up and my contact is much better.

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When I hit balls with only my right arm (trail), I think I'm getting the feeling I need to here. In order to hit it even close to straight, I need to let that trail arm fall back so my hand can be in front of the clubhead. Is this the feel I'm after? If so , is maybe hitting balls one handed a good drill to use, because for me at least it feels like it's sort of natural to hit it that way with only one hand.

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When I hit balls with only my right arm (trail), I think I'm getting the feeling I need to here. In order to hit it even close to straight, I need to let that trail arm fall back so my hand can be in front of the clubhead. Is this the feel I'm after? If so , is maybe hitting balls one handed a good drill to use, because for me at least it feels like it's sort of natural to hit it that way with only one hand.

 

I'm not sure if this helps but the one arm drill is a great way to feel the lay down of the club............see Segio Garcia as an exaggerated example. External rotation of shoulder plays a role in that move too.

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When I hit balls with only my right arm (trail), I think I'm getting the feeling I need to here. In order to hit it even close to straight, I need to let that trail arm fall back so my hand can be in front of the clubhead. Is this the feel I'm after? If so , is maybe hitting balls one handed a good drill to use, because for me at least it feels like it's sort of natural to hit it that way with only one hand.

 

I'm not sure if this helps but the one arm drill is a great way to feel the lay down of the club............see Segio Garcia as an exaggerated example. External rotation of shoulder plays a role in that move too.

Thank you, I guess the confusing part for me is that I don't feel it in my shoulder so much as I feel it in my elbow. It feels like my forearm rotates clockwise in relation to my bicep on the backswing. I guess losing an arm wrestle is the best way I can describe it. It goes back to a point where it cannot go any further and I can feel it tighten up like a spring.

I think this is the point where the shoulder would like to rotate too, but I dont feel rotation in the shoulder, I feel tension like it is coiled. Not sure if im on the right track or not.

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When I hit balls with only my right arm (trail), I think I'm getting the feeling I need to here. In order to hit it even close to straight, I need to let that trail arm fall back so my hand can be in front of the clubhead. Is this the feel I'm after? If so , is maybe hitting balls one handed a good drill to use, because for me at least it feels like it's sort of natural to hit it that way with only one hand.

 

I'm not sure if this helps but the one arm drill is a great way to feel the lay down of the club............see Segio Garcia as an exaggerated example. External rotation of shoulder plays a role in that move too.

Thank you, I guess the confusing part for me is that I don't feel it in my shoulder so much as I feel it in my elbow. It feels like my forearm rotates clockwise in relation to my bicep on the backswing. I guess losing an arm wrestle is the best way I can describe it. It goes back to a point where it cannot go any further and I can feel it tighten up like a spring.

I think this is the point where the shoulder would like to rotate too, but I dont feel rotation in the shoulder, I feel tension like it is coiled. Not sure if im on the right track or not.

 

The shoulder rotation should happen in transition one of the first moves of upper body in concert with dropping hands and pivot shift of lower. Basically it's throwing trail elbow into leading arms and getting hands in front of torso. This is murky stuff and difficult to explain and easy to get wrong. There are lots of threads and smarter eggs than me that explain the transition better. Seek it out.

 

As to rotating fore arm clock wise on back swing, if it works for you great. I used to do that but went to going counter clockwise with trail elbow, then in transition go clock wise. The purpose in that is to attain a more consistent position at the top with less break down of the arm/hands/torso triangle. It's been a big improvement that has stuck well.

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