Moving upper body and head towards target at transition

[Elm Man]

I have been struggling for years with a forward movement of my head and upper body at the transition of the backswing and downswing. I have never been able to fully get rid of this and my game usually suffers more the worse it is. If my timing is on that day, I can eek out a good round, but the swing is not holding up well under pressure. Distance is decent, but consistency is gone. The problem worsens when the swing gets longer.

 

When my head gets in front of the ball, my chin is too close to my left shoulder at impact when it really should be closer to the right shoulder. Also, the problem causes me too get too steep on the downswing and the extension on the follow through ends up wrapping around my body more rather than out to the target. My miss is a snap hook with the driver and thin shots with the divot well in front of the ball with irons.

 

No matter how hard I try, I cannot get my head behind the ball at the transition to impact on a full swing. If I take a half swing as a drill, I can stay behind it. On my practice swing, my head stays back as well. Somehow, I can stay in balance with the feet together drill, but this drill does not really help me.

 

Has anybody actually cured this problem? If so, what has worked for you?

 

My swing:

 

 

Thanks

[Jimmyhill23]

I have been struggling for years with a forward movement of my head and upper body at the transition of the backswing and downswing. I have never been able to fully get rid of this and my game usually suffers more the worse it is. If my timing is on that day, I can eek out a good round, but the swing is not holding up well under pressure. Distance is decent, but consistency is gone. The problem worsens when the swing gets longer.

 

When my head gets in front of the ball, my chin is too close to my left shoulder at impact when it really should be closer to the right shoulder. Also, the problem causes me too get too steep on the downswing and the extension on the follow through ends up wrapping around my body more rather than out to the target. My miss is a snap hook with the driver and thin shots with the divot well in front of the ball with irons.

 

No matter how hard I try, I cannot get my head behind the ball at the transition to impact on a full swing. If I take a half swing as a drill, I can stay behind it. On my practice swing, my head stays back as well. Somehow, I can stay in balance with the feet together drill, but this drill does not really help me.

 

Has anybody actually cured this problem? If so, what has worked for you?

 

My swing:

 

 

Thanks

[Jimmyhill23]

It looks to me like you're spinning out from the transition. Try Monte's zipper away drill a few times, along with Shawn Clement's Power Hogan lesson. They were the two that really helped me to understand the feeling of maintaining posture and rotating properly through the shot. Good luck.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

Looks like you're trying to swing with your shoulders.

[Elm Man]

Thanks for the comments. Will try the zipper drill. Divots point down the line on the rear, but curve to the left in the front of the divot and remain deep. Ball usually starts straight or slightly right with a draw for my baseline shot. It may appear that I am over the top because my club crosses the line pointing to the right at the top due to the overswing. I have since had a lesson and I am not coming over the top. He did not elect to work on the overswing and forward lunging, but had me try to make a conscious effort to maintain the lag and bowing of the wrist at impact. I have worked almost daily with that thought for the last few weeks with no change because I believe it is too difficult to hold on to the angle/lag consciously and even when I think I do, I block the ball to the right.

 

I still believe most of the problems stem from the forward lunge which leads to the flip. I have tried Monte's Scheinblum's

while trying to bring the arms back only to hip level for the last month as well. I must admit that this drill definitely has me hitting the ball better and it felt right the moment I tried the drill. I had the sensation that my head was moving less and the swing was shorter. Unfortunately, the video shows what appears to be absolutely no change in the head or swing length, but the shaft lean seems better.

 

I have used a foam noodle against my left ear and when I try to swing, I cold top it or hit it off the toe if I am successful with the head staying back. It feels so foreign yet I will keep trying to use the foam noodle and maybe after a few more weeks or months there might start to be some change.

 

[BrianMcG]

Just put this on repeat and watch if for 4 hours a day.

 

[tascot]

Looks like you have reached the limit of your range of motion at the top of the backswing, from there you can't stay behind it, and not unwind upper torso, while rotating the hips back to the target. The upper body and hips are moving as one unit, but because you move forward you can hold off the unwinding of your arms enough to hit it straightish. It's an OTT move. Zipper away drill is the way to go, but with a 1/2 to 3/4 swing, that's as far back as you may be able to take it and get upper body disassociating from the lower body. In brief, your overswinging. Hope that helps.

[Elm Man]

Thanks Rookie. Will focus on shortening swing and staying behind the ball which should help OTT. This will take months, I suspect. Staying with the Monte no turn cast drill. My practice swings look better than my actual swing in terms of head position (though still sliding lower body rather than turning), so I am trying to swing through the ball like my practice swing rather than "hitting" at the ball. I tried the zipper drill today and I guess that swing thought felt too awkward or I just didn't get it.

 

[Elm Man]

I wonder if any teachers out there have ever really succeeded in getting a chronic lunger to keep his head back.

Trying to shorten swing to stabilize head. Slow progress. Head and entire body sliding forward at transition.

 

Here is the down the line view.

 

 

Front view.

[tascot]

Try some belly dancing exercises for a couple of weeks, and hula hooping around your waist,there are plenty of how to videos. It will help you separate your hips from your torso.

[Elm Man]

I have had a couple of lessons recently and both pros said the same thing about my transition. Because I over rotate my shoulders, if my first move was rotating my lower body while dropping the club in the slot, my club would get so far stuck behind me. So, to compensate for the over rotation, I think my first move is with the shoulders moving in sync with the hips, but then I need to stall my shoulder turn and let the hips fire. The divots are all pointing on or slightly to the right of the target line. Another way of saying this: If you have overswung with the club crossing the target line at the top, if you just drop the club down into the slot, the divots and downswing plane will point dead right. I end up needing to rotate the shoulders early and then wait until the club has returned down the target line at the top before the lower body can fire.

 

Getting back to the original problem, I have worked so hard for weeks in trying to keep the upper bodyand head back, but I have still made no improvement in that respect. Even when I shorten my swing, the head and upper body move toward the target. I have tried the following to no avail:

• Monte Zipper drill
  
• Shortening backswing with the Monte Scheinblum No Turn Cast Drill
  
• Shortening backswing by quieting wrist movement (which I will call the "Anti-Monte" drill)
  
• Shortening backswing by quieting the lower body
  
• Feeling like my left shoulder is staying over my left foot
  
• Trying to hit the ball high
  
• Trying to feel separation of my left shoulder from my chin on the downswing (which is poor with my swing)
  

I have been attempting the first two consistently on the range for weeks now, fiddled with the others, but still have no change in head movement towards the target after many weeks.

 

 

Here is my "anti-monte" quiet wrist drill attempt, which shortens the backswing and steadies the head slightly, but distance is sapped (185 vs about 160 6 iron) with a ton of topped shots.

 

Front

[tascot]

If your swing plane, circle, arc, whatever you want to call it is pointed right , divots going overly right,you should first try square that up . Try taking the club more down the line or even slightly outside the line in the takeaway, and point it slightly left of the target at the top. Worked for Hogan.

[Reasonability]

I'll sit with your vids these eve and serve up some thoughts for you. Initial impressions:

 

Were it me personally - I'd back up to the starting grip and just work on the takeaway motion for about a week. It appears to these eyes you like to set the wrists in the takeaway. Your grip and takeaway then predispose you to lose WIDTH of backswing arc. IMHO you have to move laterally with the upper body in transition because the hands and handle never made a wide enough arc to allow room for a downswing motion. Your instructors are seeing a very quick change of directions (transition) and I wouldn't disagree. What I personally "think" however is forcing that is how you grip it and take it away. The stage is already set once the clubhead passes your back foot.

 

More late tonight. (Your progress is good btw - but I tend to think you may want to consider the initial setup and grip things - then a takeaway leading to a wider swing arc whereby the head and chest isn't force to make room for the narrow width.

 

Til then.

[cardoustie]

you need to think rotate torso thru the downswing .. that will help a lot

[Reasonability]

So for starters – PLEASE regard this post as a humble opinion and PLEASE serve it up as talking points with a good instructor face to face. What I personally find which tends to work a little better applies to me and may not be your personal cup of tea. With that all disclaimed…

 

This is going to be quite a data dump – but I promise to tie it together as meaningfully, and simply as I can, and want to reassure you your hard work is paying off. It’s a really nice swing and shows there’s been hard work, commitment, and from all appearances a very naturally athletic motion. It’s evident you can score well and on good days you can go low. Well done. Here goes.

 

To my eye, what you’re doing is setting (cocking) the wrists to the extent the hands don’t leave their starting point until the clubhead is past the trail foot - and THEN the arm swing takeaway follows that move. I notice the hands and handle are set up with a fraction more forward press than I personally apply. (Handle set is out in front of the lead leg). This gives the appearance the ball may be potentially a bit back in the mid-stance with the clubface aimed a touch right of target.

 

In one of your DTL vids I notice the trail (right) arm is hanging outward a fraction farther away from your body than the lead arm. We all fall into since the trail hand is lower on the handle which just tends to pull the shoulders into an orientation that points the upper body a little to the pull side as compared to the line through the feet. And lastly, from that same DTL vid, I personally love seeing the rear end set well behind the heels like you do. My only tweak there would be to perhaps eliminate a fraction of how deep your current knee bend is at address. The line through the shaft coming up from the ground (again looking at the DTL vid) passes through you below the belt line. Were it me I’d strive for a setup that gets that line going right through the waist line rather than below it. Perhaps a fraction less knee bend at address would fix that one.

 

Once in motion, I notice you tend to pin your trail elbow in a bit close to your right side rib cage going back. Given the way the hands initiate your takeaway – when coupled with the closeness of your right elbow to your side going back… this limits how wide (straight back for a longer period) your backswing could otherwise be. These things IMHO tend to narrow your backswing arc… to the extent the hands and handle want to land more behind your head at the top of the backswing. Were it me, the goal would be to land the hands and handle more away from the head and target… or in short… “wider”. Your lead arm is nice a straight during the setup and backswing. The early wrist-c0ck plus the way your trail elbow remains close to the ribs leave the width of your swing (IMO) a little compromised.

 

Also – I’d like to touch on the whole nebulous and confusing business of “weight” transfer. It’s difficult to tell from any video what you experience personally in terms of weight “shifting” and weight “transfer”. Only you could put words to what it feels like inside your own swing. I will say that to the observer, it looks as though you leave more weight on the lead side than I would personally. The signals of it become a little more evident when comparing your practice swing to the real swing. Notice in the practice swing your lead side knee wanders a little toward to the trail foot toes? You took weight off of that lead leg freeing that knee up to travel a bit. In your swings with a ball down there that lead knee stays put – and if your feet were on two scales, it appears there’d be more weight than desirable on the lead foot at the top of the backswing with a desire to re-plant even more weight on the lead leg immediately in transition.

 

Same thing happens in reverse on the downswing. Notice in your practice swing you allowed yourself to maintain weight on the trail leg/foot going into and even out of transition a little longer. Your practice swing avoids ripping the weight onto the lead leg in an instant. So were it me personally, I think I’d allow that lead knee to travel a little to the right going back, feel the weight as down-force pressure into the ground more through the trail leg, then LEAVE that sense of pressure up and running until the left knee separates a bit from the right which will get the arms/club/hands/handle to at least start back down as a “unit” traveling around your spine. Sometimes in the attempt to keep the head back – we golfers like to leave a lot of weight on the forward foot and/or find ways to “rip” the weight to the lead leg too early in transition. If you could “pause” at the top – if only for a second up there – there’s a likelihood you could start back down with a little less upper body movement toward the target. I’d seriously give that one a try were it me.

 

This “wide” and “pause” stuff may feel pretty weird. But you do a great job of opening the hips, avoiding lower body sway, and things that get a lot of us golfers in trouble. Your right side – hip, shoulder, elbow, the whole smash will get over the left for you to post-up in the finish pose even if you add a little width and a mini pause up there.

 

I say all this because – your right elbow is struggling to not get “stuck” and that is promoting a dumping of the shaft and lead arm angle a touch early. In essence the right elbow need to be just about passing the trail him and the handle needs be much closer to the LEAD thigh than the trail thigh when you dump that lead-arm-to-shaft angle. A drill for that one is to take half swings focusing on turning BUT turning in a way that trail elbow works in front of you and the “release” happens off the lead leg. This is where (IMO) the width with meet up with a later release. For now that notion probably sounds like the marriage of two competing/conflicting mechanics when in fact they go well together.

 

It’s also clear at the top of your backswing, the clubface is pointing skyward (shut). I would have said from some of the face-on views you’ve posted that your lead (left) wrist is cupped up at the top but the DTL shows that wrist is fairly flattened out at the top – which is good. The clubface is not parallel to the back of your left hand up there indicating (to me) your grip is a little too strong from the get-go. So were it me, I’d get the “snuff box” (that little indentation you can feel very close the wrist where the thumb and pointer fingers branch-out of the wrist)… and get that atop but not past top-dead center of the handle. The bottom bone of the left arm (ulna)…I’d get that under that snuff box doo-dad as well – and the pointer and fingers nearest to it…I’d get them rotated a touch more counter-clockwise. All this SHOULD serve to square your clubface at the top and get the leading edge of the club a little more parallel to the back of the left hand and arm up there. This way there’s no conflict when you flow the club back down. This should all serve to make it easier for you down the road to work the ball with a few basic tweaks, AND should help you trust the release at the bottom of the downswing being more off of your lead leg.

 

 

So far – lots of words on the page and what must seem like a laundry list of what sounds on paper like it’s all “wrong”. To the contrary. You’re avoiding the issues so many have of sliding the hips laterally over the trail foot going back thanks to the way you keep the trail knee inside of the trail foot. So many folks set up with the rear end not nearly back behind the heels enough but you avoid that one, too. Not so many folks fly the club shafts (as seen DTL) right through the shaft plane and shoulder plane like you do. Very few dump the tanks working and videoing their swing, and so many fail to get professional advice from a teaching pro as you’ve done in your local area. All you have done RIGHT stacks up high against what I might do differently were it me.

 

So for all the words on the page…

 

I’d setup with a fraction less knee bend to get the shaft line passing through the belt line rather than below it. I’d opt for a little weaker grip in the lead hand which I’d “think” would serve up a little squarer face from start to finish. I’d take the clubhead, shaft, and arms straighter back as a “unit” – as though that triangle formed by the hands and elbows all travel as one single piece without working the wrists at all at least until that club passes the back foot. Were it me, I’d go ahead and let that right elbow drift a little away from the body going back to add a little width of backswing arc.

 

 

Below the waist, I’d allow the weight to gather into that trail leg and foot by allowing that lead knee to relax and travel toward the trail toes a little… then go ahead and trust that leaving the weight there for a moment going into and even initially coming out of transition can be trusted. I mentioned a drill to get the release of the lead arm and shaft to unload more off of the lead leg than the trail side leg which will promote the use of solid ball-first contact even though that added “width” of arc may at first make it feel strange to add width AND release later (both). I say this because I think currently, from what I see, your right elbow is always going to struggle to get down in front of you in time to release it. So your options now (IMO) are to get “stuck” – OR - flip the clubface with your hands.

 

Tweaks to the grip and setup – for some it’s no big deal while for others it’s a biggie. Swinging wider and releasing later – I’d guess that one is probably no picnic for most golfers. This is why the things I see are just one golfer’s opinion. And even more so why if I’m halfway correct – I’d compare notes with a professional and do so in-person to see if you and she/he agree – and what the best plans for attack might be to get you there.

 

I can be wrong. Heaven knows if I had all the answers I wouldn’t be writing up swing analysis online. I saw you have a great swing – you work really hard at it – and wanted to try and cup my hands under your foot for a boost here. Hope it helps at least a little and best of luck going forward

[copperjeff]

Hi Elm Man!

 

You've got a lot of perseverance to keep working at things the way you have!

 

I've got a bit of a long post coming, but that is mostly because I'm going to include some cause and effect in here so that you know they whys of what I am suggesting.

 

BTW your Face on Link in your most recent post isn't working, but I'm going to assume not a lot has changed based on the text you have also provided.

 

OK!

 

First of all, in your current swing, you have to move the upper body forward to make any kind of solid contact, it is a result of a lot of things before it. As you have already stated, when you manage to feel like you keep your upper body back, you just top the ball. (Honestly that's pretty good, I'd expect a flat out whiff)

 

So, what do you need to work on? First thing is setup. You have waaay to much knee bend and waay to much bend from the waist. I believe this is a major contributing factor to your arm overrun. You are swinging back very inside and flat, this makes it very easy to overswing. If you stand up much taller (try having 7 iron handle point somewhere around belly button) it should encourage you to make a steeper backswing, and make it easier to feel a more vertical wrist c0ck. The vertical wrist c0ck component should help shorted that backswing. You will probably feel like you are swinging completely vertical compared to where you are right now.

 

Additionally, your current setup is restricting your backswing hip turn. You virtually cannot turn your hips going back from where you are at now. So, when you adjust your setup, in addition to being more vertical in your turn, you are going to need to allow your right hip to turn and get deeper in the backswing. (This will require your right leg to straighten some as you turn) You should feel pressure in your right heel at the top of the swing.

 

Having a deeper hip turn is going to allow more time for you to be able to get your arms in front of you before the hips take the space they wanted to swing into. Right now, your arms have no where to go to bring the clubhead back down to the ball, so you move your upper body around and forward to give yourself some space.

 

You are probably going to need to do some mirror work to nail the setup and backswing changes. With those changes I also expect you are going to need a completely new feel for your downswing. There are a lot of possibilities but I would recommend the cast portion of no turn and cast drill, or right elbow forward. Really hard to say though until you make these other changes.

 

So, to recap. Setup with less knee and hip bend, allow right hip to work up and deep in the backswing, and new backswing will need to feel very vertical. (Thumbs point up in backswing) More vertical feel of backswing should help shorten swing too. Downswing will need a new feel as well. AFTER making setup and backswing changes, go ahead and get some new video and we can see how you are reacting to the changes so we can help with some downswing feels!

 

You've got a couple things to work on, but I believe this changes I've suggested will make things easier on you going forward.

 

If you have any questions please ask!! (and don't wait a month to ask :-)

 

Good Luck!

[Elm Man]

Reasonability and Copperjeff. You guys are great. Thanks for spending all that time to analyze my swing. Much appreciated. I think I fixed the front view broken youtube link.

 

I had not videod my swing in years and was appalled at my setup with the knees so bent and being so bent over at the hips. My instructors have not had me work on that yet, but I definitely need to stand a little taller at address. I am sure I could provide for their kids college tuition with all my faults. I did work on the upright posture a bit before the lessons, but never committed to it since it felt so foreign. The most awkward feeling that I have with the more upright address was that I felt like my arms needed to stretch out more (scapula/shoulder blades pulling forward) to reach the ball at address.

 

I don't know if other people do this, but I sometimes try to emulate portions of other peoples' swings when I am playing worse or need to flight the ball a certain way. I have my Seve, Trevino, Toski (dating myself), Furyk (just kidding) swing variants that probably all look the same on video but feel different with different ball flights. I use my Seve variant trying to extend the butt end of the club as far away from my left shoulder to think of a wide arc. I can hit the ball further this way, but it feels a bit unatural. I never did think about the thought of the right elbow moving away from my side as Reasonability mentions, but will give that a try. I agree that the wider arc should help with the head movement.

 

I hope to post another video after doing my homework.

[Elm Man]

My new swing instructor, Carmen Costa in Pittsburgh, helped me in twenty minutes for an awful swing that I spent all season attempting trying to fix.

 

Note the before swing in the inset

 

 

My head and upper body stay behind much better. More extension on follow through. Ball flying with a better higher trajectory with slight draw and shallower divots.

 

Any guesses of what one thing he told me to do which helped these multiple issues?

 

 

[BabyFades]

Maybe shorten swing? Interested to hear!

[lookylookitzadam]

Interested to hear as well. Did he tell you to focus on hanging back and move the head back during the downswing?

[Elm Man]

So the first instructor I had earlier in the season had me try to do two things:

1. Try to hold off on releasing the club

2. Feel like I am keeping my head back

Neither of these swing thoughts changed a thing despite many days at the range.

 

The new instructor had me concentrate only on lifting up (rather than around) the left shoulder on the downswing and through impact. The concept felt a bit weird, so what clicked was him telling me to feel like I was pulling the starting cord of a lawnmower with my left arm with the mower behind me and off the right foot. That thought for me clicked. To get the feeling of posting up more on the left leg, he stood about 2 feet in front of the ball on the target line and had me simply hand him the clubhead after the club was grounded at address without swinging the clubhead back which showed me the position I need to be for a better spine tilt and straighter left leg. Finally, he used the classic crossed arms holding the club/rod along the shoulders having me point the shaft to the ball on the end of backswing and at the follow through which demonstrated that the shoulders should feel like they are tilting more than rotating.

 

After today's lesson, the head still moves, but less so. Extension during and after impact is improved. Ball flight much higher (now normal) than previously. No beaver pelt divots.

 

[copperjeff]

Elm Man,

 

Glad to hear you are striking the ball better.

 

I'd like to share my perspective.

 

The first instructor that you saw gave you a couple of off the cuff ideas to try and directly effect bad positions in your downswing that didn't address the reasons you flip and move the upper body forward.

 

Your newest instructor gave you some feels that are basically exaggerating the compensations you need in order to hit the ball.

 

In your newest videos I'm still seeing you start the downswing with a significant upper body move target ward, and you are still flipping.

 

You have to fix the reasons you flip and and move the upper body forward in order to get rid of them.

 

Having said that.... If you are happy with where you are at, and continue to be so, that is awesome! If you want to discuss my thoughts further, I'm available!

 

As always good luck!

[BabyFades]

Also please post a video down the line - very curious what the club is doing

[Elm Man]

Agree with Copperjeff. Head still moves. Posture not so great. Reverse spine angle at transition. Bit steep halfway down. Little flippy. Divots straight and thinner (better). Ball flight higher (better). Follow through extension is better. Clubhead looks a bit "over rolled" on follow through. Not confident or comfortable yet but eeked 7 of 9 greens today. Would be interested in Copperjeff's suggestions.

 

Here's today's down the line view:

 

[Elm Man]

Tried some dramatic changes with a few things this evening. More upright takeaway and trying to get clubface in a more open position at the top. Also, I ditched my eyeglasses. Compare to swing above.

 

[copperjeff]

Tried some dramatic changes with a few things this evening. More upright takeaway and trying to get clubface in a more open position at the top. Also, I ditched my eyeglasses. Compare to swing above.

 

 

Those are some HUGE changes!! Who did you really get on video?? lol!

 

Posture at setup is looking really good. Upper body and arms are looking great on takeaway. You were able to really shorten up that backswing! On your downswing, you aren't spinning out with the upper body so much to start with. Even though you can't really see it on the DTL I'll bet that you've made significant changes on the upper body moving forward as well.

 

Keep it up!

 

One thing I still want you to work on though. Your right hip and leg need some attention on the backswing. Its better, but could still use some more attention. If you get that turn a little deeper and allow your right leg to lose even more flex, it will allow you more room to get your hands/arms in front of you.

 

 

More important than how it looks though......

Besides feeling very different, how does it feel to you. What changes are you seeing and feeling?

I expect you to have some mishits because you've made such big changes, but you should also get a few strikes that are good.

 

Great job so far!

Love to hear how its going!

 

As always continued good luck!

[sb944]

Nice work. The steeper backswing probably overdoes it, but it's possible to work from there. Think about a 2 plane swing, where you swing back steeper, drop down properly, then without having to do anything else, the plane is now flatter. If you setup wrong, and/or swing back too flat, you can't drop into transition, therefore don't worry about what all the pros do in transition, you now can't do it.

 

My point, get the setup and backswing in your sub conscious before worrying about what the proper transition move is. But you are definitely on the right track.

[Elm Man]

For those that didn't figure out the joke, it's time for me to fess up. That last swing was not mine. It was Corey Pavin. Back in the 80s, he and I kinda of looked and swung alike and some of my golf buddies started calling me Corey. Our swings have both changed quite a bit over the years... plus I never opted for a 70s style mustache.

[Elm Man]

The new swing actually doesn't feel that awkward. In fact, it was my old swing that felt awkward, but I guess i didn't

Know how to fix it. With my old swing, if I didn't take a divot with my irons, I would usually top it. Now, the divots are lighter and even if I don't take one, the ball still flies higher than even most of my regular shots with the old swing.

 

Still work in progress.

[Tomnan24]

Late to the party but I remember having this problem and getting rid of it almost immediately even though it flies in the face of everything I had read. Got it from Shawn Clement and it was simply to leave the right heel planted firmly on the ground until after contact. It worked and also shallowed out my swing and I hit it a little farther.  
The YouTube video to watch by Shawn Clement is Anchor your swing. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Tomnan24