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3W vs Driver off the tee


tsecor

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My 3 wood carries around 230 yards and (according to Game Golf) puts me in the fairway around 70-80% of the time in regulation. Driver carries another 20-25 yards but the accuracy drops off a bit (around 50-60% FIR). For me it really depends on the layout of the hole and yardage. If I'm under 380 yards I'll hit 3W off the tee, unless the fairway is really wide open. If the hole is longer than 380 yards then I'm hitting driver.

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how did u post that paint pic?

 

Click "more reply options" next to "reply" and upload it as an image, then click "Add to Post" wherever you want to put it in the post.

 

If you're asking how I became such a fantastic artist, I can only tell you you gotta dig it out of the dirt when it comes to MS Paint.

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My 3 wood carries around 230 yards and (according to Game Golf) puts me in the fairway around 70-80% of the time in regulation. Driver carries another 20-25 yards but the accuracy drops off a bit (around 50-60% FIR). For me it really depends on the layout of the hole and yardage. If I'm under 380 yards I'll hit 3W off the tee, unless the fairway is really wide open. If the hole is longer than 380 yards then I'm hitting driver.

 

Just so we are clear here, you are a 12 handicap and you hit 55% of fairways with a 255 yard drive on average? And you hit the fairway at 230 75% of the time with a 3 wood?

 

I am never playing the people in this thread for money. Holy cow. You must be literally the worst putter of all time. The average scratch golfer is 47% fairways (Again, assuming 30 yards wide - "fairway" isn't a math construct) at 251 yards. The PGA tour median is 276 at 61.1%. So, as a 12 cap, on average, you are about 20 yards shorter and 5% less accurate than a touring professional (its not 10% because 5% of the accuracy comes from "backing up" on the same line).

 

I'm not calling you out or anything. If you kept your stats, great job those are tremendous results. I keep my stats really close as a 1.8 cap and you are significantly better off the tee than I am.

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My 3 wood carries around 230 yards and (according to Game Golf) puts me in the fairway around 70-80% of the time in regulation. Driver carries another 20-25 yards but the accuracy drops off a bit (around 50-60% FIR). For me it really depends on the layout of the hole and yardage. If I'm under 380 yards I'll hit 3W off the tee, unless the fairway is really wide open. If the hole is longer than 380 yards then I'm hitting driver.

 

Just so we are clear here, you are a 12 handicap and you hit 55% of fairways with a 255 yard drive on average? And you hit the fairway at 230 75% of the time with a 3 wood?

 

I am never playing the people in this thread for money. Holy cow. You must be literally the worst putter of all time. The average scratch golfer is 47% fairways (Again, assuming 30 yards wide - "fairway" isn't a math construct) at 251 yards.

just goes to show you stats can be manipulated any way you need to.....

 

how did u post that paint pic?

 

Click "more reply options" next to "reply" and upload it as an image, then click "Add to Post" wherever you want to put it in the post.

 

If you're asking how I became such a fantastic artist, I can only tell you you gotta dig it out of the dirt when it comes to MS Paint.

i made my own humorous paint picture as well........ill upload it for some laughs....
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here is the driver vs 3 wood in real life....

 

 

 

Why am I saying I hit it straight? I missed by almost 30 degrees. That was a horribly inaccurate shot in that drawing. Your 3 wood is more accurate because it is on a completely different line. Go back and look at my drawing again. All the points are on the same line.

 

I get that you arn't grasping vector proximity as a concept of physics (and likely never will) which is why I've stopped seriously arguing with you about it.

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here is the driver vs 3 wood in real life....

 

 

 

Why am I saying I hit it straight? I missed by almost 30 degrees. That was a horribly inaccurate shot in that drawing. Your 3 wood is more accurate because it is on a completely different line. Go back and look at my drawing again. All the points are on the same line.

 

I get that you arn't grasping vector proximity as a concept of physics (and likely never will) which is why I've stopped seriously arguing with you about it.

you did hit it straight. You were aligned wrong on the tee box....i didn't stop you because you said you were going to play a draw....i just aligned better and now have a shot at birdie or par...you pulled a 7 and i carded a 3......game, set, match.....
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here is the driver vs 3 wood in real life....

 

 

 

Why am I saying I hit it straight? I missed by almost 30 degrees. That was a horribly inaccurate shot in that drawing. Your 3 wood is more accurate because it is on a completely different line. Go back and look at my drawing again. All the points are on the same line.

 

I get that you arn't grasping vector proximity as a concept of physics (and likely never will) which is why I've stopped seriously arguing with you about it.

you did hit it straight. You were aligned wrong on the tee box....i didn't stop you because you said you were going to play a draw....i just aligned better and now have a shot at birdie or par...you pulled a 7 and i carded a 3......game, set, match.....

 

I really wish I hadn't wasted all that time trying to help you understand it. Hit 'em good, best of luck.

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here is the driver vs 3 wood in real life....

 

 

 

Why am I saying I hit it straight? I missed by almost 30 degrees. That was a horribly inaccurate shot in that drawing. Your 3 wood is more accurate because it is on a completely different line. Go back and look at my drawing again. All the points are on the same line.

 

I get that you arn't grasping vector proximity as a concept of physics (and likely never will) which is why I've stopped seriously arguing with you about it.

you did hit it straight. You were aligned wrong on the tee box....i didn't stop you because you said you were going to play a draw....i just aligned better and now have a shot at birdie or par...you pulled a 7 and i carded a 3......game, set, match.....

 

I really wish I hadn't wasted all that time trying to help you understand it. Hit 'em good, best of luck.

the only thing to understand is....does anyone feel they are more accurate with a 3 wood vs a driver off the tee.....if so, should fitting incorporate a shorter shaft and smaller head even if your yardage falls slightly.....once again, the content of the original post was not centered around your view or theory of accuracy.....are you in the fairway or not with your 3 wood and not with the driver....nobody cares how or why it happened.....but as you can see from the amazing drawing, you hit it straight as an arrow in the wrong direction.....you were aimed there and hit it dead accurate.....right behind a tree.....i also hit mine dead accurate because i was aligned better on the tee box..... maybe you could have drawn a 3 wood off the tee because its easier to control?
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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle). Ok the added loft and shorter shaft makes the three wood a bit more accurate but it is not night and day. If you have a swing flaw that is badly exposed with the driver it will show up in the 3w sooner or later.

 

Also generally longer is better. For example I hit a driver off the deck the other day for the first time with a 460cc club. (I didn't have my 3w with me as I had only taken a few clubs with a view to going on the range, but the course was deserted so thought why not). About 270 yds into the wind and I knew that my 3h would not get me particularly close. I hit it reasonably but a little left and caught the edge of some trees and dropped down, I pitched to the green and holed the putt for a birdie.

I don't recount this event to show off about a 230yd shot into some trees, but to support the statement that being further down the hole makes the game easier and that the longer shot does not have to be perfect to give you an advantage. Did I want to hit driver off the deck? Not particularly. Did I hit it very well? Not really. Did it give me an advantage? You bet. If I had not heard about Broadie and strokes gained would I have attempted the shot? Not in a million years.

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Were you a very low cap at one point? 57% on 257 is *really* good (I'm assuming a standard 30 yard wide fairway, so 15 either side). I'm a low single digit and play mini-tours occasionally without making a fool of myself and that is only slightly behind me. I'm longer but less accurate, but I would never think a 7 would put up numbers like that.

 

Nope. This is actually the first year I've even had a handicap. But if you want an insight as to why I'm a 7/6 handicap and not scratch, look at these stats.

 

PvLumRc.png

 

Out of the 37 rounds I've played in 2017, my driving has been the best part of my game. I'm nearly losing 5 strokes a round due to my short game. And not much better on my approach. Putting could be better, but is pretty on par with my handicap.

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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle).

PSG showed that in his original painting.....and the original post was regarding the amateurs who have better success with the 3 wood vs the driver......he took it in a totally different direction which wasn't the idea behind the OP

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Were you a very low cap at one point? 57% on 257 is *really* good (I'm assuming a standard 30 yard wide fairway, so 15 either side). I'm a low single digit and play mini-tours occasionally without making a fool of myself and that is only slightly behind me. I'm longer but less accurate, but I would never think a 7 would put up numbers like that.

 

Nope. This is actually the first year I've even had a handicap. But if you want an insight as to why I'm a 7/6 handicap and not scratch, look at these stats.

 

PvLumRc.png

 

Out of the 37 rounds I've played in 2017, my driving has been the best part of my game. I'm nearly losing 5 strokes a round due to my short game. And not much better on my approach. Putting could be better, but is pretty on par with my handicap.

 

Cool! Love data like this!

 

One thing that has changed (a bit) with strokes gained since Broadie's book is the concept of the nGIR - near green in regulation. Basically, the concept is that missing in the right spots has a ton of value - not all short game shots are created equal. So if there is a pin that is front left, and right is a huge deep bunker but over the green is a fairway-style pitching area, hitting into the difficult bunker will shot up as a bad short game shot but its actually an iron mistake - the miss is long, not right. Tracking nGIRs is obviously difficult, but basically the way its judged is if your short game shot leaves you as many strokes down as a 40 foot putt its not an iron mistake, if it leaves you something harder than a 40 foot putt its an iron mistake. So, just because your strokes lost in short game is so high that doesn't necessarily mean its your actual short game. It could very well be 75% firing at too many pins / being too aggressive / not missing in the "easy" spots - like making sure you are long-sided into a green where you have very little chance at birdie. So sand wedge, fire at the flag even if you are dead, say, 5 yards left - you have a chance at birdie. But if I have a 5 iron, I'll aim at the right edge of the green (NOT the center) b/c missing left is more than a stroke whereas missing right (long-sided) could be as easy as a two putt. Given that irons are also number two in being imprecise I would suspect a whole lot of that short game issue(s) is the irons missing in bad spots, not actual short game mechanics. I don't know that for sure, though.

 

The great news for you (and your handicap!) is that irons / approach shots are the most important skill in golf. If you can start to solve it, your handicap will drop like a rock with tee numbers like that.

 

Just a thought. Great data here. Seems like you are right on the right track.

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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle). OK the added loft and shorter shaft makes the three wood a bit more accurate but it is not night and day. If you have a swing flaw that is badly exposed with the driver it will show up in the 3w sooner or later.

 

Also generally longer is better. For example I hit a driver off the deck the other day for the first time with a 460cc club. (I had only taken a few clubs out with me with a view to going on the range but the course was deserted so thought why not). About 270 yds into the wind and I knew that my 3h would not get me particularly close. I hit it reasonably but a little left and caught the edge of some trees and dropped down, I pitched to the green and holed the putt for a birdie.

I don't recount this event to show off about a 230yd shot into some trees, but to support the statement that being further down the hole makes the game easier and that the longer shot does not have to be perfect to give you an advantage. Did I want to hit driver off the deck? Not particularly. Did I hit it very well? Not really. Did it give me an advantage? You bet. If I had not heard about Broadie and strokes gained would I have attempted the shot? Not in a million years.

The thing missing in all the data is the human element. If you believe your driver will miss the golf course, you're right. The folks (myself included) who choose to tee off with 3-wood don't do so because they automatically think it is an advantage, the do it because they know in their gut that at that moment the driver would be a mistake. For those who don't hit their 3-wood well, this whole debate sounds crazy, but for those who's swing works better when hitting down through the ball, the 3-wood is simply easier to hit solid, accurately, and consistently. And no fitting or anything can change that. It spans from great ball strikers to less quality strikers. When I'm on a course that fits my eye to driver, and I'm hitting it well, it is certainly better than 3-wood, but if confidence is down, is a possible 15-20 yards worth a possible stroke and distance penalty? Certainly not...
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Par 5s, and par 4s over 400 is my driver. Anything else is a 3w. It is about 15 - 20 yards shorter than the driver, but almost always in the fairway.

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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle).

PSG showed that in his original painting.....and the original post was regarding the amateurs who have better success with the 3 wood vs the driver......he took it in a totally different direction which wasn't the idea behind the OP

 

No, I didn't. You don't understand my original painting. You also thought I meant you should use GPS to see if the shot you just hit was accurate, which is ridiculous. I don't think you are following the conversation on a conceptual level. Rather than ask questions, you made jokes. The "original painting" 3 wood was no more accurate. It was just shorter on the same line.

 

Golf shots are measured in degrees. The further the ball goes, the more offline it goes. "Accurate" is a word used to describe impact and the original vector the ball travels on, not to describe where it comes to rest. Otherwise you hitting a bunker rake and jumping 20 yards right would mean you were inaccurate, which is ridiculous. You can't control where your ball comes to rest 100%. You can only control how you strike the ball. Measuring your accuracy by where your ball comes to rest and not the line it starts on compared to your aim line is measuring something (and judging yourself) that you can't control. It saps confidence and it isn't accurate.

 

if you hit that bunker rake and jump right its insane to blame yourself and "gear down" to 3 wood because you "missed the fairway". Accuracy is the relationship between the vector your ball starts on and your intended target line. That's all you can control.

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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle). OK the added loft and shorter shaft makes the three wood a bit more accurate but it is not night and day. If you have a swing flaw that is badly exposed with the driver it will show up in the 3w sooner or later.

 

Also generally longer is better. For example I hit a driver off the deck the other day for the first time with a 460cc club. (I had only taken a few clubs out with me with a view to going on the range but the course was deserted so thought why not). About 270 yds into the wind and I knew that my 3h would not get me particularly close. I hit it reasonably but a little left and caught the edge of some trees and dropped down, I pitched to the green and holed the putt for a birdie.

I don't recount this event to show off about a 230yd shot into some trees, but to support the statement that being further down the hole makes the game easier and that the longer shot does not have to be perfect to give you an advantage. Did I want to hit driver off the deck? Not particularly. Did I hit it very well? Not really. Did it give me an advantage? You bet. If I had not heard about Broadie and strokes gained would I have attempted the shot? Not in a million years.

The thing missing in all the data is the human element. If you believe your driver will miss the golf course, you're right. The folks (myself included) who choose to tee off with 3-wood don't do so because they automatically think it is an advantage, the do it because they know in their gut that at that moment the driver would be a mistake. For those who don't hit their 3-wood well, this whole debate sounds crazy, but for those who's swing works better when hitting down through the ball, the 3-wood is simply easier to hit solid, accurately, and consistently. And no fitting or anything can change that. It spans from great ball strikers to less quality strikers. When I'm on a course that fits my eye to driver, and I'm hitting it well, it is certainly better than 3-wood, but if confidence is down, is a possible 15-20 yards worth a possible stroke and distance penalty? Certainly not...

 

You are correct. The 3 wood is obviously easier to hit. It is shorter and has more loft. What we are arguing is that human beings exaggerate it in their heads. Its not *that* much less accurate for most players, they just think it is because the brain remembers extremes and hates embarassment. The driver is much more likely to result in an embarassing shot but its also much more likely to result in a birdie. What you are saying here is obvious. What *we* are saying is that people shouldn't think that way. They should think of their clubs as simply being as accurate as their length and their loft, and there are no "magic" 3 woods that are way more accurate than a driver given the same player if that player doesn't have some sort of ridiculous mental hangup. And if that player *does* have a ridiculous driver mental hangup, they should get rid of it not just accept that they have mental issues and play sub-optimal golf.

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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle). OK the added loft and shorter shaft makes the three wood a bit more accurate but it is not night and day. If you have a swing flaw that is badly exposed with the driver it will show up in the 3w sooner or later.

 

Also generally longer is better. For example I hit a driver off the deck the other day for the first time with a 460cc club. (I had only taken a few clubs out with me with a view to going on the range but the course was deserted so thought why not). About 270 yds into the wind and I knew that my 3h would not get me particularly close. I hit it reasonably but a little left and caught the edge of some trees and dropped down, I pitched to the green and holed the putt for a birdie.

I don't recount this event to show off about a 230yd shot into some trees, but to support the statement that being further down the hole makes the game easier and that the longer shot does not have to be perfect to give you an advantage. Did I want to hit driver off the deck? Not particularly. Did I hit it very well? Not really. Did it give me an advantage? You bet. If I had not heard about Broadie and strokes gained would I have attempted the shot? Not in a million years.

The thing missing in all the data is the human element. If you believe your driver will miss the golf course, you're right. The folks (myself included) who choose to tee off with 3-wood don't do so because they automatically think it is an advantage, the do it because they know in their gut that at that moment the driver would be a mistake. For those who don't hit their 3-wood well, this whole debate sounds crazy, but for those who's swing works better when hitting down through the ball, the 3-wood is simply easier to hit solid, accurately, and consistently. And no fitting or anything can change that. It spans from great ball strikers to less quality strikers. When I'm on a course that fits my eye to driver, and I'm hitting it well, it is certainly better than 3-wood, but if confidence is down, is a possible 15-20 yards worth a possible stroke and distance penalty? Certainly not...

 

You are correct. The 3 wood is obviously easier to hit. It is shorter and has more loft. What we are arguing is that human beings exaggerate it in their heads. Its not *that* much less accurate for most players, they just think it is because the brain remembers extremes and hates embarassment. The driver is much more likely to result in an embarassing shot but its also much more likely to result in a birdie. What you are saying here is obvious. What *we* are saying is that people shouldn't think that way. They should think of their clubs as simply being as accurate as their length and their loft, and there are no "magic" 3 woods that are way more accurate than a driver given the same player if that player doesn't have some sort of ridiculous mental hangup. And if that player *does* have a ridiculous driver mental hangup, they should get rid of it not just accept that they have mental issues and play sub-optimal golf.

Now you are saying these people have mental issues? That is so wrong, its not even funny.
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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle). OK the added loft and shorter shaft makes the three wood a bit more accurate but it is not night and day. If you have a swing flaw that is badly exposed with the driver it will show up in the 3w sooner or later.

 

Also generally longer is better. For example I hit a driver off the deck the other day for the first time with a 460cc club. (I had only taken a few clubs out with me with a view to going on the range but the course was deserted so thought why not). About 270 yds into the wind and I knew that my 3h would not get me particularly close. I hit it reasonably but a little left and caught the edge of some trees and dropped down, I pitched to the green and holed the putt for a birdie.

I don't recount this event to show off about a 230yd shot into some trees, but to support the statement that being further down the hole makes the game easier and that the longer shot does not have to be perfect to give you an advantage. Did I want to hit driver off the deck? Not particularly. Did I hit it very well? Not really. Did it give me an advantage? You bet. If I had not heard about Broadie and strokes gained would I have attempted the shot? Not in a million years.

The thing missing in all the data is the human element. If you believe your driver will miss the golf course, you're right. The folks (myself included) who choose to tee off with 3-wood don't do so because they automatically think it is an advantage, the do it because they know in their gut that at that moment the driver would be a mistake. For those who don't hit their 3-wood well, this whole debate sounds crazy, but for those who's swing works better when hitting down through the ball, the 3-wood is simply easier to hit solid, accurately, and consistently. And no fitting or anything can change that. It spans from great ball strikers to less quality strikers. When I'm on a course that fits my eye to driver, and I'm hitting it well, it is certainly better than 3-wood, but if confidence is down, is a possible 15-20 yards worth a possible stroke and distance penalty? Certainly not...

 

You are correct. The 3 wood is obviously easier to hit. It is shorter and has more loft. What we are arguing is that human beings exaggerate it in their heads. Its not *that* much less accurate for most players, they just think it is because the brain remembers extremes and hates embarassment. The driver is much more likely to result in an embarassing shot but its also much more likely to result in a birdie. What you are saying here is obvious. What *we* are saying is that people shouldn't think that way. They should think of their clubs as simply being as accurate as their length and their loft, and there are no "magic" 3 woods that are way more accurate than a driver given the same player if that player doesn't have some sort of ridiculous mental hangup. And if that player *does* have a ridiculous driver mental hangup, they should get rid of it not just accept that they have mental issues and play sub-optimal golf.

Yes. I wish it were that easy. I've left 3-wood at home for rounds just to make myself hit driver as I know what you say is true. But confidence and ball flight are strong markers for the human golfer. Mental hangups run rampant in sport, and I wish I didn't have one with the driver, but alas, I'm not alone:) For me, the only time I ever get a 2-way miss is when going with driver. Is it my swing? Is it my plan? Is it my driver? Probably all of the above, but does it even matter? My last few sub par rounds of golf were the ones where I left driver at home (playing 10 clubs in a carry bag). Golf is stupid! LOL.
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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle). OK the added loft and shorter shaft makes the three wood a bit more accurate but it is not night and day. If you have a swing flaw that is badly exposed with the driver it will show up in the 3w sooner or later.

 

Also generally longer is better. For example I hit a driver off the deck the other day for the first time with a 460cc club. (I had only taken a few clubs out with me with a view to going on the range but the course was deserted so thought why not). About 270 yds into the wind and I knew that my 3h would not get me particularly close. I hit it reasonably but a little left and caught the edge of some trees and dropped down, I pitched to the green and holed the putt for a birdie.

I don't recount this event to show off about a 230yd shot into some trees, but to support the statement that being further down the hole makes the game easier and that the longer shot does not have to be perfect to give you an advantage. Did I want to hit driver off the deck? Not particularly. Did I hit it very well? Not really. Did it give me an advantage? You bet. If I had not heard about Broadie and strokes gained would I have attempted the shot? Not in a million years.

The thing missing in all the data is the human element. If you believe your driver will miss the golf course, you're right. The folks (myself included) who choose to tee off with 3-wood don't do so because they automatically think it is an advantage, the do it because they know in their gut that at that moment the driver would be a mistake. For those who don't hit their 3-wood well, this whole debate sounds crazy, but for those who's swing works better when hitting down through the ball, the 3-wood is simply easier to hit solid, accurately, and consistently. And no fitting or anything can change that. It spans from great ball strikers to less quality strikers. When I'm on a course that fits my eye to driver, and I'm hitting it well, it is certainly better than 3-wood, but if confidence is down, is a possible 15-20 yards worth a possible stroke and distance penalty? Certainly not...

 

You are correct. The 3 wood is obviously easier to hit. It is shorter and has more loft. What we are arguing is that human beings exaggerate it in their heads. Its not *that* much less accurate for most players, they just think it is because the brain remembers extremes and hates embarassment. The driver is much more likely to result in an embarassing shot but its also much more likely to result in a birdie. What you are saying here is obvious. What *we* are saying is that people shouldn't think that way. They should think of their clubs as simply being as accurate as their length and their loft, and there are no "magic" 3 woods that are way more accurate than a driver given the same player if that player doesn't have some sort of ridiculous mental hangup. And if that player *does* have a ridiculous driver mental hangup, they should get rid of it not just accept that they have mental issues and play sub-optimal golf.

Yes. I wish it were that easy. I've left 3-wood at home for rounds just to make myself hit driver as I know what you say is true. But confidence and ball flight are strong markers for the human golfer. Mental hangups run rampant in sport, and I wish I didn't have one with the driver, but alas, I'm not alone:) For me, the only time I ever get a 2-way miss is when going with driver. Is it my swing? Is it my plan? Is it my driver? Probably all of the above, but does it even matter? My last few sub par rounds of golf were the ones where I left driver at home (playing 10 clubs in a carry bag). Golf is stupid! LOL.

 

I think if you carried driver and wrote it down (distance forward and pace off left/right from your target line) it would really help you mentally. You are not as inaccurate as you think and the only cure (besides more cowbell) is to measure it every time. Otherwise you are just creating a feedback loop - you have nothing objective to short circuit incorrect thoughts about your ability.

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Still struggling to figure out what OP wants out of this thread, so I'll try to address the OP. His first post wasn't very concise.

 

I see a lot of members talk about using a 3 wood off the tee because the driver isn't working (why? What does "not working" mean? Could be a lot of things. Is he new to the game, temporary equipment change, different tech in new heads affecting performance? Doesn't know proper driver technique?).......with todays technology and "forgiveness", you would think drivers are much easier to hit than years past. (For people learning the modern game, they are. Physical properties are measurable.) The huge 460cc heads are supposed to inspire confidence (I hate them personally) (Showing bias against drivers. I'd imagine the vast majority of players have no problem with a 460cc head, visually. Closing it up may be a different issue), but its funny how a smaller head 3W with a shorter shaft provides that confidence to a lot of amateur players ("A lot" is a pretty nondescript term) .....maybe club fitting should be geared towards shaft length along with the other fitting parameters. (This is where you lose me. Are you talking about drivers or 3w? Are you talking about head size, too? You only mention shaft here. Proper clubfitting already is geared to this. There are 2000 threads on here about "I cut my driver down", and driver head size doesn't have a ton of variety. Some 430cc models? 30cc isn't much, visually) I know it is somewhat, but what are your thoughts?s (Thoughts about what? Fitting? Yeah, people should get fit for their equipment, or at least demo different shaft lengths. You can get Trackman time to set up the top of your bag.) It seems a lot of people like the 3w off the tee because it flies straight for them (I'd like any club that flew straight only. It's interesting you use "straight" as a way to qualify performance of a club. Why not use "fairways" instead? Otherwise, hitting it straight doesn't guarantee a fairway.)....but the heads are tiny compared to todays drivers (So wait, is the smaller head now a bad thing?) and I know the shafts are shorter.....maybe that's the key to good fitting (What's the key, you listed two variables there- shaft length and head size). Sure you lose some yardage (Quite an assumption. For some guys, they only play a 3w because their AoA is so steep that the spin on a driver is similar or worse than with a 3w, limiting distance) , but if it flies down the middle finds the fairway, right? and you are confident with the club, hitting it 240 down the middle instead of 260 into the rough (Did you also mean to include "behind a tree" here? Because the discussion seemed to turn from "rough" to a forced punch out shot) may save you 5 strokes a loop (You said you were talking about amateurs in general here. Then when general statistics for amateurs were presented, the discussion turned to specific examples and anecdotes) .

 

What are your thoughts?

(On what? You never asked a specific question.)

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The thing that I don't understand in this thread is why those who are strongly in favour of the three wood automatically assume that any shot with the driver will end up barely playable (and that their three wood will be down the middle). OK the added loft and shorter shaft makes the three wood a bit more accurate but it is not night and day. If you have a swing flaw that is badly exposed with the driver it will show up in the 3w sooner or later.

 

Also generally longer is better. For example I hit a driver off the deck the other day for the first time with a 460cc club. (I had only taken a few clubs out with me with a view to going on the range but the course was deserted so thought why not). About 270 yds into the wind and I knew that my 3h would not get me particularly close. I hit it reasonably but a little left and caught the edge of some trees and dropped down, I pitched to the green and holed the putt for a birdie.

I don't recount this event to show off about a 230yd shot into some trees, but to support the statement that being further down the hole makes the game easier and that the longer shot does not have to be perfect to give you an advantage. Did I want to hit driver off the deck? Not particularly. Did I hit it very well? Not really. Did it give me an advantage? You bet. If I had not heard about Broadie and strokes gained would I have attempted the shot? Not in a million years.

The thing missing in all the data is the human element. If you believe your driver will miss the golf course, you're right. The folks (myself included) who choose to tee off with 3-wood don't do so because they automatically think it is an advantage, the do it because they know in their gut that at that moment the driver would be a mistake. For those who don't hit their 3-wood well, this whole debate sounds crazy, but for those who's swing works better when hitting down through the ball, the 3-wood is simply easier to hit solid, accurately, and consistently. And no fitting or anything can change that. It spans from great ball strikers to less quality strikers. When I'm on a course that fits my eye to driver, and I'm hitting it well, it is certainly better than 3-wood, but if confidence is down, is a possible 15-20 yards worth a possible stroke and distance penalty? Certainly not...

 

You are correct. The 3 wood is obviously easier to hit. It is shorter and has more loft. What we are arguing is that human beings exaggerate it in their heads. Its not *that* much less accurate for most players, they just think it is because the brain remembers extremes and hates embarassment. The driver is much more likely to result in an embarassing shot but its also much more likely to result in a birdie. What you are saying here is obvious. What *we* are saying is that people shouldn't think that way. They should think of their clubs as simply being as accurate as their length and their loft, and there are no "magic" 3 woods that are way more accurate than a driver given the same player if that player doesn't have some sort of ridiculous mental hangup. And if that player *does* have a ridiculous driver mental hangup, they should get rid of it not just accept that they have mental issues and play sub-optimal golf.

Yes. I wish it were that easy. I've left 3-wood at home for rounds just to make myself hit driver as I know what you say is true. But confidence and ball flight are strong markers for the human golfer. Mental hangups run rampant in sport, and I wish I didn't have one with the driver, but alas, I'm not alone:) For me, the only time I ever get a 2-way miss is when going with driver. Is it my swing? Is it my plan? Is it my driver? Probably all of the above, but does it even matter? My last few sub par rounds of golf were the ones where I left driver at home (playing 10 clubs in a carry bag). Golf is stupid! LOL.

 

I think if you carried driver and wrote it down (distance forward and pace off left/right from your target line) it would really help you mentally. You are not as inaccurate as you think and the only cure (besides more cowbell) is to measure it every time. Otherwise you are just creating a feedback loop - you have nothing objective to short circuit incorrect thoughts about your ability.

More Cowbell!!! Finally, the perfect answer. I have done so. And with the driver, I'm exceedingly good, or exceedingly bad. Much of that is the courses I play. Mature courses playing around 6200 yards. When playing courses upwards of 6600 to 7000+ the stats are much more like you speak, but those courses are not ones I (or many regular golfers) get to play on a regular basis.
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here is the driver vs 3 wood in real life....

 

 

 

Why am I saying I hit it straight? I missed by almost 30 degrees. That was a horribly inaccurate shot in that drawing. Your 3 wood is more accurate because it is on a completely different line. Go back and look at my drawing again. All the points are on the same line.

 

I get that you arn't grasping vector proximity as a concept of physics (and likely never will) which is why I've stopped seriously arguing with you about it.

you did hit it straight. You were aligned wrong on the tee box....i didn't stop you because you said you were going to play a draw....i just aligned better and now have a shot at birdie or par...you pulled a 7 and i carded a 3......game, set, match.....

 

I really wish I hadn't wasted all that time trying to help you understand it. Hit 'em good, best of luck.

the only thing to understand is....does anyone feel they are more accurate with a 3 wood vs a driver off the tee.....if so, should fitting incorporate a shorter shaft and smaller head even if your yardage falls slightly.....once again, the content of the original post was not centered around your view or theory of accuracy.....are you in the fairway or not with your 3 wood and not with the driver....nobody cares how or why it happened.....but as you can see from the amazing drawing, you hit it straight as an arrow in the wrong direction.....you were aimed there and hit it dead accurate.....right behind a tree.....i also hit mine dead accurate because i was aligned better on the tee box..... maybe you could have drawn a 3 wood off the tee because its easier to control?

 

What is going on here? I don't think you mentioned "fairway" once in your original post. You mentioned hitting it straight. I even quoted your OP above.

 

Is the argument now that 3w is easier to aim than a driver? You're changing so many variables that it's impossible to determine what is making the difference in outcome.

 

Arguing that PSG should've hit 3w here is a pretty silly argument. If he hit it "dead accurate" but the only issue was aiming 30 yards right, then I wouldn't tell him to grab a 3w, I'd tell him to aim 30 yards left :)

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More Cowbell!!! Finally, the perfect answer. I have done so. And with the driver, I'm exceedingly good, or exceedingly bad. Much of that is the courses I play. Mature courses playing around 6200 yards. When playing courses upwards of 6600 to 7000+ the stats are much more like you speak, but those courses are not ones I (or many regular golfers) get to play on a regular basis.

 

More examples of why this argument will not be settled. There is no rule that applies to every situation. When PSG and I speak, it's typically in generalities.

 

You've done a great job showing that often, the decision on which club to hit is course or condition dependent. Your brain is able to analyze and process all the data you've tracked and you can make an informed decision. The decision on which club to hit where is usually fairly obvious. Where the brain has a hard time coming up with an answer is the situations where we are on the fence. We can't make up our mind.

 

What I would imagine (and maybe PSG agrees) is that people tend to be too risk-adverse in these situations. These marginal situations where it could go either way, humans aren't good at selecting the optimal strategy. They tend to revert back to what's safe, comfortable, etc. And bias in how we remember things plays into that.

 

Side note, the tone of your discussion has improved this thread. Thanks.

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The thing missing in all the data is the human element. If you believe your driver will miss the golf course, you're right. The folks (myself included) who choose to tee off with 3-wood don't do so because they automatically think it is an advantage, the do it because they know in their gut that at that moment the driver would be a mistake. For those who don't hit their 3-wood well, this whole debate sounds crazy, but for those who's swing works better when hitting down through the ball, the 3-wood is simply easier to hit solid, accurately, and consistently. And no fitting or anything can change that. It spans from great ball strikers to less quality strikers. When I'm on a course that fits my eye to driver, and I'm hitting it well, it is certainly better than 3-wood, but if confidence is down, is a possible 15-20 yards worth a possible stroke and distance penalty? Certainly not...

 

I completely agree about the importance of not hitting a shot with a mind full of doubt and fear. Up until recently I had zero confidence with the driver AND 3w and they were both all over the course. The thing that helped me was not building up the importance of the shot and just thinking about what I wanted the ball to do. Sometimes if I feel a bit of doubt I try to cultivate a sort of numb indifference, or I think about something unrelated to golf to get it in perspective. And like pinestreet says, if you measured it you would probably find that your drives aren't as disastrous as you think. And remember that Sergio has a downward AoA. ;)

 

Oh and I really wish I had the type of accurate reliable 3w tee shot that you describe, but if I could be off with the driver I could easily be off with the 3 too, but that's my dodgy swing I guess!

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What is going on here? I don't think you mentioned "fairway" once in your original post. You mentioned hitting it straight. I even quoted your OP above.

 

Is the argument now that 3w is easier to aim than a driver? You're changing so many variables that it's impossible to determine what is making the difference in outcome.

 

Arguing that PSG should've hit 3w here is a pretty silly argument. If he hit it "dead accurate" but the only issue was aiming 30 yards right, then I wouldn't tell him to grab a 3w, I'd tell him to aim 30 yards left :)

How many fairways are not straight in front of you? lol.....if you cant assume that is part of the equation, i cant help you there.....if you assumed it to be "Hit it straight into the rough or behind a tree", i don't know what to tell you.....it was about control....hitting straight is control....slicing or pushing isn't.....
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Now you are saying these people have mental issues? That is so wrong, its not even funny.

 

One more try to explain it to you.

 

 

 

Four shots, with a 5 iron, a 3 hybrid, a 3 wood and a driver. Two in the fairway (5 iron, hybrid). One in the woods (3 wood). One OB (Driver). They are identically accurate (2* open). In the contest of a fitting (your OP) if you cut down your shaft and you simply move backwards on the same line you are no more accurate, just shorter, but you might be fooled (the hybrid in the fairway in this picture looks more accurate than the 3 wood in the woods, but it isn't). If you cut down your shaft and the line *actually moves closer* to the target line by more than the distance you lose, you might be a candidate for a cut down driver. A cut down driver can even get *longer* if you hit it in the face more often and create more ballspeed, but you need to make sure your gearing down off the tee is making you more accurate not just shorter. Shorter always appears more accurate and can mask swing / playing flaws.

 

EDIT

Obviously the target and vector lines should be straight, I don't draw well enough in MS Paint. Path also plays a part, but its the same principle.

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I tend to agree with some of the approach that PSG has provided (not in a taking sides deal), but in my own results. I recently changed my swing to a hardy one plane type move, that allows more time to square up the club face due to more of a rounded body type swing. So certainly lessons has played a factor. Right now, I play to a 2 for reference.

 

In the past 6 or so rounds since my swing has made notable progress, I have been in the 45-50% range with fairways hit with a driver or any tee club on wider courses, and a 35-40% on narrower courses. I play in Florida so it's usually wide open, or old school Florida tree lined. The majority of misses were not in the water, or in the trees where I was totally cut off, but mostly 5-10 yards from the start of the rough... So on a typical 30 yard wide hole, maybe 25 yards right or left of center. I have noticed my scores consistently at 74-78 with my main issue being 1 "bad swing" with maybe a double, or just plain bad putting. I have found that the closer to the hole, the easier it is to "make par" as a general statement. One of the things I think overlooked in the thread is "average swings." My best drives are 290, with my average at 265/270. This takes into account anything high or low on the face, heel/toe, and what not. When I scale back to a 3 wood, a great 3 wood is 260 and normal is 240-245. But I noticed when I miss with the 3 wood, I am also in the same 25 yard average off line, but now I may be even farther back if I say, hit a heel cut 230. So on a 400 yard hole, a poor driver will leave me 150 versus 170, but I have the same line to the hole. For me, hitting a controlled 8 from 150 instead of a controlled 6 from 170 allows more chances to not only keep it on the green, but closer proximity.

 

I don't mean to fan the flames for some people, but have observed this post over a few days. For me, a swing change and range work certainly didn't hurt, but using driver has allowed myself a better chance at being in the green and 2 putting allows better scores. I also found implementing a 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 square face and open face, allows me to be much better on shots 30-110 as well with my 58/52/Pw. Now I have had to focus on my putting because that is where I am losing my shots.

 

One last factor I think is on approach shots, a miss with that 8 iron from 150 leaves me at worst a chip and a putt, where the 6 iron from 170 may bring a bunker or bigger miss into play, where bogey is now a real factor. I found at times I would put myself in the "well 3 wood should be better shorter" only to find out I had the same type of miss but now 20 more yards in. I don't mean I just take driver every time, but if I take 3 wood it's to avoid reachable trouble, or to hit to a certain spot more so than to just "hit a fairway." For me, my issues are closer to the green in some of those "feel shots." I have given up a lot of shots to a poorly judged bump and run, or a poor putt.

 

Anyways, I'm off to the putting green.

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What is going on here? I don't think you mentioned "fairway" once in your original post. You mentioned hitting it straight. I even quoted your OP above.

 

Is the argument now that 3w is easier to aim than a driver? You're changing so many variables that it's impossible to determine what is making the difference in outcome.

 

Arguing that PSG should've hit 3w here is a pretty silly argument. If he hit it "dead accurate" but the only issue was aiming 30 yards right, then I wouldn't tell him to grab a 3w, I'd tell him to aim 30 yards left :)

How many fairways are not straight in front of you? lol.....if you cant assume that is part of the equation, i cant help you there.....if you assumed it to be "Hit it straight into the rough or behind a tree", i don't know what to tell you.....it was about control....hitting straight is control....slicing or pushing isn't.....

 

If the two can be interchanged so easily, why so much grief over using angular deviation as a measure?

 

To the bolded part, I want to be clear what you're saying there. Are you saying someone has to hit the ball with no shaping left or right to be in control? I don't know about you, but I don't play too many tee shots where I don't commit to a shot shape.

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      Taylor Moore - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach Golf Links (holes 7 & 8) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Odyssey putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Lucas Glover going to test black Srixon ZX5 & ZX7 irons - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Justin Thomas wrist training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Stephen Sweeney's Putting Ballistic putting training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Chris Kirk club changes - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies

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