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3W vs Driver off the tee


tsecor

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I think the disconnect here is that everyone is generally right. PSG is absolutely right about the stats. Everyone considering being in the cabbage behind a tree, etc. also right.

 

The part about Broadie's study was that it assumed you didn't get in trouble. As soon as your shot is obstructed, the strokes gained goes out the window. However, it is clearly a fact that, fliers included, your proximity to the pin is absolutely going to be better with an 8-iron in rough vs a 6-iron from the centre of the fairway. It's irrefutable. The book is fantastic in that way.

 

So, what a fairway wood can be is for someone looking to stay out of the nasties. I think PSG would agree strongly that driver should not be avoided because you're worried about rough. If you're worried about worse-than-rough, manage your game. But there is a lot of unnecessary concern about the first cut of rough. Unless your rough is unplayable and truly unpleasant, it is probably not as bad as you think in altering the outcome of shots.

 

Nice post.

 

I'll add that, IMO, Scott Fawcett's work extends Broadie's in a way that directly addresses what club to hit, when, and why. If this thread focused more on Fawcett than Broadie, there would be more consensus, more quickly.

 

If his work was a book instead of a pricy subscription, we probably would be!

 

I haven't subscribed. Still considering it. There is a $100 per year Basic option.

 

However, I've learned quite a bit from Fawcett via his free videos and podcasts. Those are well worth the time investment.

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I hit 60% of my fairways and am around an 8 presently. I do not consider myself the worst putter in the world. Probably, like some "3 time a week" players here, I have iron accuracy that comes and goes. I hit 6 of 7 fairways tonight (all driver) and didn't get a single birdie. 5 GiR but nothing stuck close within 5 feet, and none of the 6+ foot putts went in.

 

Two of my worst approaches were the 50/54 wedges which, according to this theory, should be more accurate than 8/9-iron if I had hit 3-wood off the tee. One of my best approaches was a 6-iron.

 

I hit down on my driver and have developed a controlled low trajectory with a slight fade for accuracy. I also use a driver known for forgiveness and dispersion. I also play on public courses with mile wide sponges for fairways versus the 10-yard wide billiard table the pros use.

 

It is entirely possible for a muni to be a high single digit and hit 60% fairways. And it's not bad putting. Tiger said it best in that the irons are golf's offensive weapons. Accurate iron play takes an incredible amount of finesse and practice. Unfortunately, some of us just don't have the time it takes to groove the approach shots.

 

I know I am not alone. If people are so happy with their iron play, why do the hos swap out iron sets constantly, looking for some kind of magical accuracy that can only be gained through tempo and practice...?

 

Anyways, nice discussion, and compelling, and I am totally on board with the high probability of success with the lower irons... I just don't think the the statement that 8-caps can't hit 60% of their fairways is all encompassing. We all have things we do better or worse.

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Two of my worst approaches were the 50/54 wedges which, according to this theory, should be more accurate than 8/9-iron if I had hit 3-wood off the tee. One of my best approaches was a 6-iron.

 

 

That theory is correct, when accounting over thousands of rounds. This is always the hardest part of statistical theory. Just because it happens to someone doesn't mean it's normal (in the statistical definition of normal). It just means that you had an off day, you're not as good with your wedges as others, or any number of other things, including measurement error and confirmation bias.

 

That's not a bad thing; it makes the game fun and interesting. It isn't robots playing golf (yet).

14 Pings. Blueprints are incredibly good. Fetch is the most underrated putter on the market. Don't @ me.

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I hit 60% of my fairways and am around an 8 presently. I do not consider myself the worst putter in the world. Probably, like some "3 time a week" players here, I have iron accuracy that comes and goes. I hit 6 of 7 fairways tonight (all driver) and didn't get a single birdie. 5 GiR but nothing stuck close within 5 feet, and none of the 6+ foot putts went in.

 

Two of my worst approaches were the 50/54 wedges which, according to this theory, should be more accurate than 8/9-iron if I had hit 3-wood off the tee. One of my best approaches was a 6-iron.

 

I hit down on my driver and have developed a controlled low trajectory with a slight fade for accuracy. I also use a driver known for forgiveness and dispersion. I also play on public courses with mile wide sponges for fairways versus the 10-yard wide billiard table the pros use.

 

It is entirely possible for a muni to be a high single digit and hit 60% fairways. And it's not bad putting. Tiger said it best in that the irons are golf's offensive weapons. Accurate iron play takes an incredible amount of finesse and practice. Unfortunately, some of us just don't have the time it takes to groove the approach shots.

 

I know I am not alone. If people are so happy with their iron play, why do the hos swap out iron sets constantly, looking for some kind of magical accuracy that can only be gained through tempo and practice...?

 

Anyways, nice discussion, and compelling, and I am totally on board with the high probability of success with the lower irons... I just don't think the the statement that 8-caps can't hit 60% of their fairways is all encompassing. We all have things we do better or worse.

 

Good post above this one, from Matchavez. One round is meaningless. You need way more data. One time I had a round in which I hit wedges into the hole twice from the fairway on the back nine. I will probably never do that again in my life. If you played 100 rounds your wedges would be way more accurate than your six iron. "More likely" doesn't mean "always".

 

Re: the 60% thing, the factor your missing in your post is distance. I agree 8 caps can hit 60% of fairways. It is incredibly unlikely they can do that AND average 260 in distance. Note, I did not say impossible, I said unlikely. Of course an 8 cap can hit 60% of fairways, you need to specify the distance to have a meaningful discussion. A poster earlier in this thread posted compelling data that he is a 7 and not a 2 because of his short game. But he is the exception, not the rule. He is about a scratch/+1 off the tee and a 12 around the greens (Roughly). That isn't a normal situation. If a guy comes up to me in a trenchcoat and tells me he has three arms I'm not going to believe him, but there probably is a three-armed man somewhere in the world. Similarly, if a poster says they are a 7 with those tee stats I won't believe them, but it turns out there is one in the world and I was wrong. But the number of 7 caps that drive like +1s and have short games losing them 5 strokes a round are pretty rare I think.

 

In fact, I went against what I'm advising. What I should have said was "those are incredible statistics off the tee, and its really unlikely you are a 7 cap with those stats can you explain it to me" instead of "I don't believe you". I'm advising golfers not to think in absolutes (driver long, 3w short) and I thought in an absolute (he can't be right). Turns out, he *was* an exception and he *was* right, just like hitting from 80 is better than 100 despite you being more comfortable from 100. I had a truth in my head (a 7 cap can't drive like that) and because I allowed zero room for grey (first cut is about the same as fairway even though its "rough") and I didn't have an open mind, I got the wrong answer about him.

 

EDIT

Only a Sith speaks in absolutes.

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I play to about a 6-8 handicap and when my scores start ballooning it's almost always driving accuracy. But I also subscribe to the theory that I'll take 120 yards from 3 yards into the rough over 150 from the fairway every time (and be more accurate with my gap wedge out of the rough). So I see both sides of this equation. My home course, and a couple of courses I play quite often, are pretty tree lined. About 7-10 yards off the fairway and you're often dealing with some interference. Not "dead" but trying to hit over tree branches, trying to cut it around a tree, hitting a PW-9iron as a second shot on a par 5 because you're on the wrong side of the dog leg, etc... (hell I've got 2 holes on my course where you can be right edge of the fairway, in the fairway, and your second shot feels "dead" on a par 5). At 10-20 yards off the fairway I'm usually in the trees and trying to hit my 180 yard club about 150 with a punch and run shot that hopefully gets within 10 yards of the green (so I have at least a decent shot of making par). This is when I'm not chipping out sideways. I will have rounds where I shoot an 80-85 and I was in trouble off the tee on about 8-9 holes. That's not a fun round at all. When I buy a new driver this summer I'm getting either 45.00 or 45.25 instead of the stock 45.75 in hopes of reducing my L-R dispersion. If anyone has any other ideas to reduce L-R driver dispersion (other than practice... I already practice every week) I'm all ears.

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I play to about a 6-8 handicap and when my scores start ballooning it's almost always driving accuracy. But I also subscribe to the theory that I'll take 120 yards from 3 yards into the rough over 150 from the fairway every time (and be more accurate with my gap wedge). So I see both sides of this equation. My home course, and a couple of courses I play quite often, are pretty tree lined. About 7-10 yards off the fairway and you're often dealing with some interference. Not "dead" but trying to hit over tree branches, trying to cut it around a tree, hitting a PW-9iron as a second shot on a par 5 because you're on the wrong side of the dog leg, etc... (hell I've got 2 holes on my course where you can be right edge of the fairway, in the fairway, and your second shot feels "dead" on a par 5). At 10-20 yards off the fairway I'm usually in the trees and trying to hit my 180 yard club about 150 with a punch and run shot that hopefully gets within 10 yards of the green (so I have at least a decent shot of making par). This is when I'm not chipping out sideways. I will have rounds where I shoot an 80-85 and I was in trouble off the tee on about 8-9 holes. That's not a fun round at all. When I buy a new driver this summer I'm getting either 45.00 or 45.25 instead of the stock 45.75 in hopes of reducing my L-R dispersion. If anyone has any other ideas to reduce L-R driver dispersion (other than practice... I already practice every week) I'm all ears.

 

When you are at the range and practicing, how often do you practice hitting line drives that go exactly 150 yards? How much time do you spend practicing cutting/drawing 9 irons and pitching wedges around imaginary trees in front of you? How much time do you spend trying to hit a "higher" club harder so you can clear a tree and still go relatively straight? In other words, do you actually practice the shots you are going to hit? I very, very, very rarely see anyone actually practicing these shots. Everyone is just whacking it straight and high (or trying to). These shots become *so much easier* when they are included in your practice routine (one of the themes of the book). Even just five minutes spent every session on these types of shots gives you a massive confidence boost on the course. I typically spend 10-15 minutes of any given hour long practice session hitting stuff like line-drive cuts, ground balls, skyball sand wedges, seeing how high I can hit my 5 then how low I can hit my LW etc...

 

Cutting down your driver can absolutely work miracles, but you mentioned one round where you missed 8/9 fairways and didn't have fun. However, I'm sure there is a round your not remembering where you hit a ton of fairways (at a very long distance) because you hit driver and hit it well, and scored really well. However, our brains tend to remember the bad and not the good with the driver (the iron or putter usually gets the credit in our heads). If you measure it, you'd know for sure.

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Statistics are a tool, not a cure. You could argue the last 9 holes played are far more statistically relevant than the 18 on a tight unknown course from 3 years ago when you had a different swing, different driver, and different approach to course management.

 

Careful, young padawans, metrics have already ruined the game of baseball. And golf is going that way as well... with all the computer analysis and statistics.

 

Derek Jeter's metrics rate him one of the worst shortstops of all time. A young Greg Maddux would go under statistical analysis and never be given a contract, ever.

 

Speaking of robots, watching an AM these days reminds a bit of watching a group of robots. There are certainly no outliers (prospective Normans, Mickelsons, Furyks, or Bubbas).

 

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Statistics are a tool, not a cure. You could argue the last 9 holes played are far more statistically relevant than the 18 on a tight unknown course from 3 years ago when you had a different swing, different driver, and different approach to course management.

 

Careful, young padawans, metrics have already ruined the game of baseball. And golf is going that way as well... with all the computer analysis and statistics.

 

Derek Jeter's metrics rate him one of the worst shortstops of all time. A young Greg Maddux would go under statistical analysis and never be given a contract, ever.

 

Speaking of robots, watching an AM these days reminds a bit of watching a group of robots. There are certainly no outliers (prospective Normans, Mickelsons, Furyks, or Bubbas).

 

You are 100% correct. Golf is going that way on an express freight train. The game has been solved. They need to change the rules. Every other sport does this. Basketball got solved by getting an incredible ISO scorer, shooters, and a passable post big (Jordan's teams, Shaq/Kobe/horry teams, drexler/Olajuwon, Dwight Howard/penny/Reggie Lewis etc...). The defensive rules made those teams unstoppable. The NBA changed the rules and the game is awesome again. Football was solved by bellichick and lovie smith smashing into the WRs just as they were making their breaks / going into the ball. They changed the rules and the game got interesting again.

 

So you are 100% right you just have the wrong enemy. The best way to play for almost everyone is bomb and guage. Very few pros can compete wo doing it. The game needs to change or we are headed exactly where you suggest.

 

Jordan was the first incredible ISO scorer not in the post. Tiger the first bomb and gauge. Sports get solved. There is an optimal way to play for almost everyone. There is nobody on tour making up for a swing speed under 110 with incredible putting. All else being equal, bomb and guage is the best way to play. Spieth came closest to bucking this trend by having an incredible putting spring but it's

Not sustainable. Hitting it 330 yards

And having a clock wedge system is sustainable.

 

The only two sports not to change anything are baseball and golf. And they are both incredibly boring. But it's not the fault of "stats" - a final score is a stat! It's a fault of not changing the game once someone figures it out. Tiger figured out the best way to play professional golf (just like Jordan did). It will become more and more and more robotic until the rules are changed. But swimming against the tide is hopeless.

 

iMO of course.

 

EDIT

I think the best way to "fix" would be to ban caddies from giving shot advice of any kind. Put an official from the PGA on every hole the players can ask for specific yardages to whatever. Have a guy who carries their clubs, fixes divots, etc... but the big issue IMO is there is very little thinking required in a player / creativity. They can farm it out. I think that makes it quite a bit worse than it could be.

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I usually get killed for pointing out these little details (because for some reason golfers are convinced based on nothing that being in the fairway matters) but it is much, much better to be 260 in the rough than 240 in the fairway. Twenty extra yards off the tee (about 10% in this scenario) is worth almost three tenths of a stroke per hole.

 

So to answer your question: no. It depends on the player of course, but distance and speed are king in this game. Period.

 

Depends on the rough. It gets juicy and thick here in the summer. At least 3" - 4". Unless you are really strong, even controlling a wedge out of the mess is more difficult than a 7 or 8 from the fairway.

 

There are obviously exceptions to this. But given a general golf course, it is almost three times better to be in the rough twenty yards forward (assuming its around 15% - a 240/50 yard drive). Now, you will very likely hit prettier shots from the fairway and have more disasters from the rough but on average, in terms of approach proximity, almost nothing is more important than how far from the hole your ball starts before your iron hits it.

 

My thoughts are that if you can routinely square up a 43" 3 wood, but not a 45" driver, then that driver is too long for you

 

I'm 6'1 and chopped mine down to 44" and my accuracy has skyrocketed. Ricky is at 43.5" in his driver now (but he's a little guy)

 

The OEMs are never going to push this as stock because it doesn't allow them to make the same distance claims, but I have noticed a lot more talk about this on golf broadcasts as well as this forum

 

You are falling into the same trap virtually everyone falls into. Driver "accuracy" doesn't matter. Approach shot accuracy does. You can get your driver as accurate as you want but if your approach shot accuracy doesn't go up (or goes down) it doesn't matter. The shot that actually matters for accuracy is the shot that is made into the green complex, not the shot that is made off the tee. There is obviously a point of diminishing returns here - you don't want to hook/slice off the golf course. But with the driver you want to be as long as you possibly can. You don't get extra points for hitting gorgeous drives straight up the middle 230 and hitting 6 iron when you could hit one a little left to 250 and hit 8 iron.

 

Its a subtle difference, but its an important one. You have to be careful you arn't solving a problem that doesn't exist. Getting your driver "more accurate" and then not measuring the effect of that increased accuracy on your iron accuracy accomplishes nothing. If your driver accuracy helps your iron accuracy, that is wonderful, but usually (*usually*) a player, especially a mid-cap, will shoot a much lower score with a longer, wilder driver and shorter irons in their hands for approach shots, even if they are out of worse lies or around obstacles.

 

You don't get to take off a half-stroke off for a straight drive. You could dramatically increase your accuracy by hitting pitching wedge off the tee. That is obviously a silly example, but it makes about as much sense as stepping back distance for accuracy. Its the same thing as switching to pitching wedge just on a smaller scale.

 

Think about it. If you are shorter, you are more accurate. You're just hitting it shorter on the same line. Going from 260 in the rough to 240 in the fairway usually just means the mid-capper hit it less hard and, if you picked it up and moved it forward 20 yards on the same line, it isn't in the fairway anymore. This is fake accuracy. You can always get more accurate by slowing down because the ball travels less far on the same line. Your not getting more accurate, your just getting shorter (your clubface is still X* open/shut at impact).

 

Cutting a few inches off your driver is a great idea IF it makes you longer (i.e. Jimmy Walker). Otherwise, just wallop it.

 

If you tell me you are more accurate with the driver the question back is "So what? How much more accurate did that make your irons?" If you can't answer that question, the "more accurate" driver didn't do much except hit it shorter.

 

I'm the mid-cap you're talking about. I get sucked into that same trap of 'fairway is better than distance' so easily (completely aware of the 'point of diminishing returns' you spoke of).

You've opened me up to a new way of thinking. I have never considered the idea of fake accuracy.

ALWAYS helpful to get a new perspective.

jus chillin

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This has been a very interesting discussion. And I thank Pine and others for keeping at it. I used to always think fairway. Fairway at all costs so I can have a better chance at approach, and so I never get penalty strokes. I know for a fact (not really, it is a made up fact* you're welcome) that I leave birdies out on the golf course for playing safe. I convince myself that I also take bogies and doubles off the table as well (I've had more than few 18 straight par rounds). So what is the answer? You shouldn't change who you are, but you should consider driver first, and if you think you will not bring penalty strokes into play, just hit it. And don't be manic about hitting it perfect, just hit it like you would on the driving range. Will I actually change my game? Maybe one hole a round, maybe not at all. But I will never look at a fellow golfer with driver in hand as someone who is not playing smart again...

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http://www.golfwrx.c...w-g400-drivers/

 

Seems PING is in agreement with my OP.

 

Deleted in Edit. Done with this guy.

 

Enjoy being right.

done with you long ago.....BUT, you should start a stats thread bc that would seem to suit you better and im sure it would get 300+ responses, seriously. Its just not meant for this discussion.
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How is Ping in agreement with your OP? They reduced the head size slightly to decrease drag--and thus increase swing speed for distance--and they actually increased MOI compared to their previous 460cc head.

 

Even with a stretch, this doesn't support your OP.

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http://www.golfwrx.c...w-g400-drivers/

 

Seems PING is in agreement with my OP.

 

How is Ping in agreement with your OP? They reduced the head size slightly to decrease drag--and thus increase swing speed for distance--and they actually increased MOI compared to their previous 460cc head.

 

Even with a stretch, this doesn't support your OP.

totally does. I posted about the smaller vs larger heads and what is better for amateurs...and should those factors be included when fitting for a driver....this totally fits in with the discussion.....
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http://www.golfwrx.c...w-g400-drivers/

 

Seems PING is in agreement with my OP.

 

How is Ping in agreement with your OP? They reduced the head size slightly to decrease drag--and thus increase swing speed for distance--and they actually increased MOI compared to their previous 460cc head.

 

Even with a stretch, this doesn't support your OP.

totally does. I posted about the smaller vs larger heads and what is better for amateurs...and should those factors be included when fitting for a driver....this totally fits in with the discussion.....

 

Lol. You've fallen squarely in the land of delusion. It is time to close this thread as you'll twist anything to try to defend your OP. Is there a "Cray Cray" subforum this thread can be moved to?

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http://www.golfwrx.c...w-g400-drivers/

 

Seems PING is in agreement with my OP.

 

How is Ping in agreement with your OP? They reduced the head size slightly to decrease drag--and thus increase swing speed for distance--and they actually increased MOI compared to their previous 460cc head.

 

Even with a stretch, this doesn't support your OP.

totally does. I posted about the smaller vs larger heads and what is better for amateurs...and should those factors be included when fitting for a driver....this totally fits in with the discussion.....

 

Lol. You've fallen squarely in the land of delusion. It is time to close this thread as you'll twist anything to try to defend your OP. Is there a "Cray Cray" subforum this thread can be moved to?

you can leave any time you wish. nobody is forcing you to stay.
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http://www.golfwrx.c...w-g400-drivers/

 

Seems PING is in agreement with my OP.

 

How is Ping in agreement with your OP? They reduced the head size slightly to decrease drag--and thus increase swing speed for distance--and they actually increased MOI compared to their previous 460cc head.

 

Even with a stretch, this doesn't support your OP.

totally does. I posted about the smaller vs larger heads and what is better for amateurs...and should those factors be included when fitting for a driver....this totally fits in with the discussion.....

 

Lol. You've fallen squarely in the land of delusion. It is time to close this thread as you'll twist anything to try to defend your OP. Is there a "Cray Cray" subforum this thread can be moved to?

you can leave any time you wish or troll elsewhere

 

Actually you are the one trolling as you claim that this Ping announcement supports your OP. The forgiveness Ping claims comes from the MOI, not the smaller head in and of itself. You would have to twist your OP to claim that you stated the average 3 wood has a higher MOI than the average 460 cc driver.

 

So try again, how does the Ping announcement support your OP? Be specific and factual or you will prove my point that you are trolling.

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http://www.golfwrx.c...w-g400-drivers/

 

Seems PING is in agreement with my OP.

 

How is Ping in agreement with your OP? They reduced the head size slightly to decrease drag--and thus increase swing speed for distance--and they actually increased MOI compared to their previous 460cc head.

 

Even with a stretch, this doesn't support your OP.

totally does. I posted about the smaller vs larger heads and what is better for amateurs...and should those factors be included when fitting for a driver....this totally fits in with the discussion.....

 

Due to the informative, but contentious nature of this thread, I'll respond only about the size of club heads.

 

tsecor,

 

Yes, fitters should fit for club head size. As MOI goes up, the club head does get "harder" to square up. You can't make an object resistant to twisting when it hits a golf ball, but also somehow make it easy to twist so you can get it back to square.

 

The shorter shaft and higher loft of a 3w are only 2/3rds of the equation IMHO. I would suggest that club heads that are so large are harder for people with poorer golf swings to get back to square, often resulting in longer slices, that do go farther offline than a similarly swung (not struck) 3w.

 

43", 180cc's, 13° - These used to be really good specs for a 2w and many an amateur and even some dang good pros played this type of club as a tee shot club very successfully. Those specs simply refer to a "3w/spoon" now as opposed to the driver/2w of yesteryear and the spoon of Bobby Jones era.

 

But, I must disagree with your PING "proof." PING has increase the MOI of this club, thus making it even harder to "twist/square up." If refutes your premise.

 

But, if you want to talk about some of the wonderful JDM drivers in the sub 400cc range, or some of the cult classics like the r540 TP drivers that everyone loves (wonder why?), then we can certainly discuss club head size as a fitting parameter.

 

I am actually glad everyone hung in there and kept at this thread. I believe it is very useful, even if it has been a bit tense at times. Thank you all!

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http://www.golfwrx.c...w-g400-drivers/

 

Seems PING is in agreement with my OP.

 

How is Ping in agreement with your OP? They reduced the head size slightly to decrease drag--and thus increase swing speed for distance--and they actually increased MOI compared to their previous 460cc head.

 

Even with a stretch, this doesn't support your OP.

totally does. I posted about the smaller vs larger heads and what is better for amateurs...and should those factors be included when fitting for a driver....this totally fits in with the discussion.....

 

Due to the informative, but contentious nature of this thread, I'll respond only about the size of club heads.

 

tsecor,

 

Yes, fitters should fit for club head size. As MOI goes up, the club head does get "harder" to square up. You can't make an object resistant to twisting when it hits a golf ball, but also somehow make it easy to twist so you can get it back to square.

 

The shorter shaft and higher loft of a 3w are only 2/3rds of the equation IMHO. I would suggest that club heads that are so large are harder for people with poorer golf swings to get back to square, often resulting in longer slices, that do go farther offline than a similarly swung (not struck) 3w.

 

43", 180cc's, 13° - These used to be really good specs for a 2w and many an amateur and even some dang good pros played this type of club as a tee shot club very successfully. Those specs simply refer to a "3w/spoon" now as opposed to the driver/2w of yesteryear and the spoon of Bobby Jones era.

 

But, I must disagree with your PING "proof." PING has increase the MOI of this club, thus making it even harder to "twist/square up." If refutes your premise.

 

But, if you want to talk about some of the wonderful JDM drivers in the sub 400cc range, or some of the cult classics like the r540 TP drivers that everyone loves (wonder why?), then we can certainly discuss club head size as a fitting parameter.

 

I am actually glad everyone hung in there and kept at this thread. I believe it is very useful, even if it has been a bit tense at times. Thank you all!

totally agree with you on most of your points. I appreciate the feedback
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you can leave any time you wish. nobody is forcing you to stay.

 

I don't understand why you'd post in a forum if you don't actually want discussion.

 

FWIW, all of the stats show that your initial post is "old golf" thinking, and demonstrably wrong from a mathematics and outcome point of view. This is just a fact at this point.

 

Another interesting point that Broadie & the stats gained method makes: you're wasting your time practicing putts longer than 8 feet, because pros only make 50% of their 8 footers and it goes way down after that. Practice getting to 100% at 4 feet, and after that you just need to get most putts inside 4 feet to nearly as good as the pros. This was absolutely a crazy notion to me the first time I read it, but the more you think about it, it's really true.

Maybe a "fact" to you but its untrue when you look at the total history of the game. Golf is an "old" sport, just for the record.

But once again, nobody is talking "stats" here. That should be moved to a different thread.

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http://www.golfwrx.c...w-g400-drivers/

 

Seems PING is in agreement with my OP.

 

How is Ping in agreement with your OP? They reduced the head size slightly to decrease drag--and thus increase swing speed for distance--and they actually increased MOI compared to their previous 460cc head.

 

Even with a stretch, this doesn't support your OP.

totally does. I posted about the smaller vs larger heads and what is better for amateurs...and should those factors be included when fitting for a driver....this totally fits in with the discussion.....

 

Due to the informative, but contentious nature of this thread, I'll respond only about the size of club heads.

 

tsecor,

 

Yes, fitters should fit for club head size. As MOI goes up, the club head does get "harder" to square up. You can't make an object resistant to twisting when it hits a golf ball, but also somehow make it easy to twist so you can get it back to square.

 

The shorter shaft and higher loft of a 3w are only 2/3rds of the equation IMHO. I would suggest that club heads that are so large are harder for people with poorer golf swings to get back to square, often resulting in longer slices, that do go farther offline than a similarly swung (not struck) 3w.

 

43", 180cc's, 13° - These used to be really good specs for a 2w and many an amateur and even some dang good pros played this type of club as a tee shot club very successfully. Those specs simply refer to a "3w/spoon" now as opposed to the driver/2w of yesteryear and the spoon of Bobby Jones era.

 

But, I must disagree with your PING "proof." PING has increase the MOI of this club, thus making it even harder to "twist/square up." If refutes your premise.

 

But, if you want to talk about some of the wonderful JDM drivers in the sub 400cc range, or some of the cult classics like the r540 TP drivers that everyone loves (wonder why?), then we can certainly discuss club head size as a fitting parameter.

 

I am actually glad everyone hung in there and kept at this thread. I believe it is very useful, even if it has been a bit tense at times. Thank you all!

totally agree with you on most of your points. I appreciate the feedback

 

So, again, how does the new Ping driver support your OP?

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Maybe a "fact" to you but its untrue when you look at the total history of the game. Golf is an "old" sport, just for the record.

But once again, nobody is talking "stats" here. That should be moved to a different thread.

 

Math makes the world go round, and yes, statistics prove facts. That's kind of the definition of a fact in a sport where score matters.

But you're welcome to keep ignoring any all proof to that you find inconvenient, I guess, while the facts are there for people who want to actually get better at this stupid game.

Stats can be manipulated to support any "argument" you want. If you have ever taken a stats course you would know that. So, lets keep it on point and you guys can move the stats discussion to your own thread. Sound fair? ok, great. Lets move on in a positive manner
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Tsecor, everyone agrees with you that head size and shaft length should be a part of fitting. We disagree about how to measure the results. Its that simple. You think hitting a fairway is "accurate". I think it is ten times more complicated than that, because you have to factor out the course your playing and the conditions and only look at the equipment and the golfer.

 

At its most basic level, that is our disagreement. Nobody would possibly disagree a smaller head size might be better for certain players. We just disagree that more fairways = better.

 

How long your driver shaft is is a stat (45 versus 44 is a statistical measurement). How large your driver head size is is a stat (460 vs 430 is a statistical measurement). You are using stats. You are just using them poorly.

 

You think the argument is whether or not you should get your shaft cut down or go with a smaller head. Nobody is arguing that with you. We are simply arguing that 1. you can't get away from stats (the size of your driver is a statistic dude) and 2. your measurement of accuracy is too simplistic. "I hit the fairway!" doesn't factor out 1. the course or 2. the conditions or 2. (and most importantly) distance and as such can lead to people thinking they are more accurate when they are not.

 

Again, no extra points for hitting the fairway. All that matters is an improvement in the accuracy of the resulting iron. *That* is what matters.

 

We agree that cutting down shafts and using smaller heads should be options. We just disagree on how to evaluate the results / the fit.

 

Deleted post above.

G400 Max 9* Ventus Red 5X, SIM Ventus Red 6X 

Callaway Mavrik 4 (18*) - AW (46*) Project X 5.5

Vokey SM4 50* SM5 56*

Cameron Phantom 5S

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Stats can be manipulated to support any "argument" you want. If you have ever taken a stats course you would know that. So, lets keep it on point and you guys can move the stats discussion to your own thread. Sound fair? ok, great. Lets move on in a positive manner

 

That's not actually true. The facts of scoring are not manipulated in any matter. You're deflecting an actual good discussion, for some reason I can't figure out, in a thread titled "3W vs Driver off the tee"...

Hopefully the folks new to the game that read this thread aren't pulled into your vortex of foolishness.

are you going to keep hurling insults and continue the name calling? take it elsewhere
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Maybe a "fact" to you but its untrue when you look at the total history of the game. Golf is an "old" sport, just for the record.

But once again, nobody is talking "stats" here. That should be moved to a different thread.

 

Math makes the world go round, and yes, statistics prove facts. That's kind of the definition of a fact in a sport where score matters.

But you're welcome to keep ignoring any all proof to that you find inconvenient, I guess, while the facts are there for people who want to actually get better at this stupid game.

Stats can be manipulated to support any "argument" you want. If you have ever taken a stats course you would know that. So, lets keep it on point and you guys can move the stats discussion to your own thread. Sound fair? ok, great. Lets move on in a positive manner

 

So how does the new Ping driver support your original post in this thread?

 

You can't take your own medicine. You called out others in this thread over and over. Now you make an outrageous and clearly erroneous claim and you can't eat a little humble pie and admit you're wrong.

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Stats can be manipulated to support any "argument" you want. If you have ever taken a stats course you would know that. So, lets keep it on point and you guys can move the stats discussion to your own thread. Sound fair? ok, great. Lets move on in a positive manner

 

That's not actually true. The facts of scoring are not manipulated in any matter. You're deflecting an actual good discussion, for some reason I can't figure out, in a thread titled "3W vs Driver off the tee"...

Hopefully the folks new to the game that read this thread aren't pulled into your vortex of foolishness.

are you going to keep hurling insults and continue the name calling? take it elsewhere

 

There actually haven't been any insults hurled. It's an internet message board; I don't have to go anywhere. We're allowed to disagree with you, especially when your premise is wrong.

 

But I will stop responding to you at this point, since it's clearly not going to change your mind.

that's perfect. Thank you
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