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3W vs Driver off the tee


tsecor

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I look at it from a different angle. I think the most devastating thing to high caps golf game isn't bad mechanics its self-consciousness. They would rather score higher over time but not look stupid than score lower over time versus looking stupid quite often but scoring better.

 

Not even close to reality. I see it all the time, the high cappers are generally by far the most aggressive of all the skill levels and I've never know one to be self conscious in the way you describe. They bomb it all the time and always hit the longest club they can, always shot for every pin without much though of the consequences. It's only when they learn to manage their game and the course that they can transition to mid-cap level. Then as the skill improves (if it improves) so does the aggressiveness start to ramp back up again - but it never gets to the level it was as a high capper (even for the pros).

 

Sure there is certainly an optimal balance between too aggressive and being too conservative - that's obvious. But you're not going to be able to quantify it in a way that's going to be useful for anyone. Just as before it's going to be different for everyone and finding that balance is part of the skill of the game. Those that do a better job will score better, those that don't will score worse - whether they err on the side of too conservative or too aggressive.

 

We play with very different high caps I guess. The ones I play with come up short on way more shots than they hit long. But since we can't really quantify it, this probably won't be settled in any meaningful way. The high caps I play with usually start out caring about score and playing cautiously and are only bombing it at the end, when their score is already gone. I think I'd end up with more money if I had a dime for every high cap that came up short than long. But as you say, impossible to quantify.

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Yeah, but OP asked a question, and we gave him an answer based on generalities. Give us 50 different scenarios and we'll give 50 different opinions.

 

My background is in Economics. There's a joke that economists always answer "it depends." Why? Because it does.

 

There's so much lack of specificity in the OP's post, that speaking in generalities is the only way to answer the question. But when we speak this way, with concrete data, mind you, he comes back and tries to poke holes using specific situations.

 

We all see how obnoxious that is.

 

The variables you listed are all extremely valid. It may not be practical to apply a general strategy in special circumstances. But if you have enough situations with similar variables, and you can see a trend emerge through the noise, you can capitalize on that.

see, you have it backwards......its a general discussion meant for the amateur golfer, the average guy....but certain people wanted to take it in the direction you mentioned, so when I answered them the way you wanted, now its obnoxious? you guys talk out of your mouth and your butts :) I'm lost because while I attempted to keep it on point, nobody wanted...that's fine, but don't kill me over responding how you wanted me to......makes no sense.

 

Twice I have posted your OP and added specific questions I had with it. I didn't get an responses. I did this to better understand what kind of discussion you wanted. Never in your OP did you ask a specific question. This thread has covered a lot of ground because of that.

 

I apologize for saying you're obnoxious. I shouldn't have said that. All in all, you've been polite.

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We play with very different high caps I guess. The ones I play with come up short on way more shots than they hit long.

 

We've been talking about tee shots mostly, have you changed the conversation over to approach shots? If so, I'd agree many high cappers frequently come up short on their approaches - but in my experience that has little to do with aggressiveness (or lack there off). From what I've seen It's much more often an unrealistic expectations or understanding of their capabilities.

 

But as you said, we do at least agree it's not something we'll be able to quantify so basically a moot point.

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We play with very different high caps I guess. The ones I play with come up short on way more shots than they hit long.

 

We've been talking about tee shots mostly, have you changed the conversation over to approach shots? If so, I'd agree many high cappers frequently come up short on their approaches - but in my experience that has little to do with aggressiveness (or lack there off). From what I've seen It's much more often an unrealistic expectations or understanding of their capabilities.

 

But as you said, we do at least agree it's not something we'll be able to quantify so basically a moot point.

 

I think they come up short most often because they don't hit the shot solidly. Which then circles us back to another thread/discussion about do you choose an approach shot club based on hitting it solid, or do you take an extra because you rarely hit it solid (then the approach shot being long is in play)?

 

Seems there was just a recent discussion about always playing for back of the green yardage to compensate for the inevitable misfit.


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BT,

Plan for Ko'olau to be an all carry-no roll fairway and get it safely in play (even if have to use 3 wood-lol!). Enjoyed playing it occasionally when lived on Oahu, you will find some golfers get beat up by place because gets in their head, you should enjoy the challenge.

 

The other 2 times I played it (July '13 and Jan. '14) I shot high 90s. First time it was relatively dry and second time it was soaked. Back then I didn't plan things like I do now. Curious to see if it makes a difference. Love the course though. Hoping I can talk my Dad into playing it too.

 

BT

 

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BT,

Plan for Ko'olau to be an all carry-no roll fairway and get it safely in play (even if have to use 3 wood-lol!). Enjoyed playing it occasionally when lived on Oahu, you will find some golfers get beat up by place because gets in their head, you should enjoy the challenge.

 

Ko'olau used to be my favorite on Oahu but I heard that since the church took over the course a couple of years ago that the conditions have taken a turn for the worst. I would recommend Turtle Bay (Palmer) or Ko'olina instead.

 

Back to the topic, last club tournament on a tight course, I decided to play each hole "backwards", figuring out what tee shot would leave me with ~150 on my approach. Often that left me with 19-deg hybrid off the tee which was fine because it's the longest club I can hit straight consistently. One problem with that strategy is on doglegs if I was on the wrong side of the hole, my approach would be longer than 150, so maybe next time I should give myself a 10-yard buffer on doglegs.

 

Yeah, I had heard that too. I checked and found out that they have been doing a lot of renovations in the last 6 months. They had to cut back the jungle around the greens because it had grown up so much that it was smothering the greens. Last report I had was that the greens were in pretty good shape and rolling smooth. I'll report back as to the condition for any that are interested.

 

BT

 

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We play with very different high caps I guess. The ones I play with come up short on way more shots than they hit long.

 

We've been talking about tee shots mostly, have you changed the conversation over to approach shots? If so, I'd agree many high cappers frequently come up short on their approaches - but in my experience that has little to do with aggressiveness (or lack there off). From what I've seen It's much more often an unrealistic expectations or understanding of their capabilities.

 

But as you said, we do at least agree it's not something we'll be able to quantify so basically a moot point.

 

No, I mean off the tee. I was referring more to rawdog's post (not sure what page) governing aim lines. The high caps I play with hit driver, but they tend not to be aggressive with it. They typically tee up in the middle of the tee box and aim up the middle of the fairway (which, contrary to the OP's view) is probably the worst thing you can do from an accuracy perspective. When I say "aggressive" I don't mean club choice or swing but plan / aim line. They just don't think through holes very well. If I'm in an event, almost everyone on the tee think about and looks at where the flag is on the green and plans their approach backwards. I have yet to play with many high caps who, on the tee box, asks where the pin is today so they can take the best line to have the best shot into the complex. They generally pull driver, tee up in the middle, aim down the middle, have a thirty-second staring contest with the ball, and then swing out of their shoes. I don't see that as "aggressive" I see it as "stupid". But as you say, cannot be quantified.

 

I guess a better way to say what I'm saying is that I don't see high caps taking aggressive *strategies* or aiming at aggressive targets (like thinking about which side of a par 5 with woods on both sides is easier to punch a 3 iron up near the green from in the case of a miss. That's an aggressive mindset - even in a miss, I'm thinking and aiming for birdie). They make aggressive swings all the time, they just don't seem to think "I'm going to go low by doing X" they think "I really hope I remember how not to slice so this isn't a disaster".

 

BT,

Plan for Ko'olau to be an all carry-no roll fairway and get it safely in play (even if have to use 3 wood-lol!). Enjoyed playing it occasionally when lived on Oahu, you will find some golfers get beat up by place because gets in their head, you should enjoy the challenge.

 

The other 2 times I played it (July '13 and Jan. '14) I shot high 90s. First time it was relatively dry and second time it was soaked. Back then I didn't plan things like I do now. Curious to see if it makes a difference. Love the course though. Hoping I can talk my Dad into playing it too.

 

BT

 

Man, New England to Hawaii and Stuart is from NH. I was born in NH (Amherst) and you guys are tougher than me. Had to flee south!

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My decision always depends on the length of the hole and how the tee shot sets up the next shot. I think that at 460CC, my driver (909D2) is just as forgiving as my 3HL RBZ. Sometimes the shape of the fairway will impact my decision too along with the potential for a level lie.

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I can't recall a time when I've pulled the 3w out instead of the driver after the thought "Man I really need to hit the fairway here".

I reach for my 3w when a well struck Driver could still get me in trouble (the fairway pinches or turns at my total distance, or my total distance would bring hazards into play).

 

It's all about playing the odds to me. If trouble is within 10 yards left/right/short/long of the "I have to hit THAT spot or else I'm in trouble"...I'm pulling out my 3w

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I can't recall a time when I've pulled the 3w out instead of the driver after the thought "Man I really need to hit the fairway here".

I reach for my 3w when a well struck Driver could still get me in trouble (the fairway pinches or turns at my total distance, or my total distance would bring hazards into play).

 

It's all about playing the odds to me. If trouble is within 10 yards left/right/short/long of the "I have to hit THAT spot or else I'm in trouble"...I'm pulling out my 3w

 

You're right, you weren't thinking "Man, I really need to hit the fairway here", you were thinking, "I really don't want to stray much from the fairway here."

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Yes, playing length does play a huge part in the ability to hit any club well. And yes, playing length is a critical part to a real quality fitting and it doesn't necessarily result in any loss of distance either. It's 1) just not something you will find at a retail level "fitting" and 2) the stock playing lengths have been 'jacked' more for drivers then most other clubs so it's much more common for the driver length to be a poor fit (giving poor results) then for the other clubs.

Modern drivers play at 46 plus purely to cater to the egos of hackers who are more impressed by chs readings on the launch monitor than what they see as insignificant indicators, like dispersion or centre face contact. Problem is the OEMs weight the clubs to play at 46 which makes it hard to get one to play at under 45 without making adjustments to stop it coming in at lower end of C swing weight. A good fitter can make one up to play at whatever length/sw combo you want, but buying off the rack cut down to 45 or less will give you an unplayable club. The moral of the story is to get fit by a quality fitter. As I buy second hand and don't get fit, I always look for 'tour/player' drivers as they tend to come in shorter and heavier. I would get a better result going to a fitter, but I know my general numbers and can usually find a pretty good fit from the bargain bins.

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Yes, playing length does play a huge part in the ability to hit any club well. And yes, playing length is a critical part to a real quality fitting and it doesn't necessarily result in any loss of distance either. It's 1) just not something you will find at a retail level "fitting" and 2) the stock playing lengths have been 'jacked' more for drivers then most other clubs so it's much more common for the driver length to be a poor fit (giving poor results) then for the other clubs.

Modern drivers play at 46 plus purely to cater to the egos of hackers who are more impressed by chs readings on the launch monitor than what they see as insignificant indicators, like dispersion or centre face contact. Problem is the OEMs weight the clubs to play at 46 which makes it hard to get one to play at under 45 without making adjustments to stop it coming in at lower end of C swing weight. A good fitter can make one up to play at whatever length/sw combo you want, but buying off the rack cut down to 45 or less will give you an unplayable club. The moral of the story is to get fit by a quality fitter. As I buy second hand and don't get fit, I always look for 'tour/player' drivers as they tend to come in shorter and heavier. I would get a better result going to a fitter, but I know my general numbers and can usually find a pretty good fit from the bargain bins.

 

Man, I didn't know the built-to-be-played-long Graf Blackbird in my sig was built "purely to cater to the egos of hackers". Els and Rory are 45.5" IIRC.

 

We are all snowflakes man. There are no hard and fast rules.

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Actually driver head weights haven't changed much at all since the days of the 43.5" persimmon clubs, in fact some have gotten a bit heavier. It's the shafts that the OEM's have "messed with" to get the longer lengths (lighter and counterbalanced). So getting the shorter lengths to work isn't really that hard.

 

And I can guarantee you that both Rory and Ernie are not playing off the shelf clubs and were fit for playing length (along with all the other specs) - just like everyone else should be.

 

When I say "aggressive" I don't mean club choice or swing but plan / aim line. They just don't think through holes very well.

 

I would agree with that - except for the use of the term 'aggressive' in that context.

 

I guess a better way to say what I'm saying is that I don't see high caps taking aggressive *strategies* or aiming at aggressive targets (like thinking about which side of a par 5 with woods on both sides is easier to punch a 3 iron up near the green from in the case of a miss. That's an aggressive mindset - even in a miss, I'm thinking and aiming for birdie).

 

How well they think through how they play the hole ahead of time, by itself, has nothing to do with aggressive vs conservative play. Aggressive vs conservative is about the relative risk vs reward they decide to take on with their choices. In your case, that's a conservative choice you are making, not aggressive, since you are minimizing the risk in case of a less then ideal shot off the tee.

 

Aiming down the center of the fairway is a conservative line (which may be made with a conservative or aggressive club selection).

 

The whole concept of 'an aggressive swing at a conservative target' isn't being aggressive at all. It's just an expression used to try to fool people into making a good solid (normal) swing when they lack confidence.

 

They make aggressive swings all the time, they just don't seem to think "I'm going to go low by doing X" they think "I really hope I remember how not to slice so this isn't a disaster".

 

They are high cappers for a reason. A 'better' or more well thought out plan off the tee isn't going to change that.

 

 

Man, New England to Hawaii and Stuart is from NH. I was born in NH (Amherst) and you guys are tougher than me. Had to flee south!

 

Well, I live here but not actually 'from' NH. Been here almost 20 years and still considered a flat lander (CT).

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Rick Shields did a review on You Tube about the G400 stretch, makes one think?! ;) I am going to try one to see what happens. 3 Stretch, 5W, 4H would work for me. ;)

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Actually driver head weights haven't changed much at all since the days of the 43.5" persimmon clubs, in fact some have gotten a bit heavier. It's the shafts that the OEM's have "messed with" to get the longer lengths (lighter and counterbalanced). So getting the shorter lengths to work isn't really that hard.

 

And I can guarantee you that both Rory and Ernie are not playing off the shelf clubs and were fit for playing length (along with all the other specs) - just like everyone else should be.

 

I think "they exist to satisfy the ego of hacks" is a bit extreme.

 

How well they think through how they play the hole ahead of time, by itself, has nothing to do with aggressive vs conservative play. Aggressive vs conservative is about the relative risk vs reward they decide to take on with their choices. In your case, that's a conservative choice you are making, not aggressive, since you are minimizing the risk in case of a less then ideal shot off the tee.

 

Aiming down the center of the fairway is a conservative line (which may be made with a conservative or aggressive club selection).

 

The whole concept of 'an aggressive swing at a conservative target' isn't being aggressive at all. It's just an expression used to try to fool people into making a good solid (normal) swing when they lack confidence.

 

Its just how you define the term at that point. We define cold as the absence of heat, because heat is something that exists and cold is not. So, yes, you can tell me that not having a plan and aiming up the middle isn't "not" being aggressive (double negative), but I don't think it makes much sense to think of it that way. Aggression is something you have to turn on, to actively do - its heat. Timidity on the course comes by default, and is the absence of aggression. Your going to hit the ball somewhere. I guess you could say they are "neutral" - not planning conservative or aggressive, but that isn't really true - they arn't "planning" to be conservative. They are just trying not to look dumb and make doubles. I define that as being not aggressive. This could be semantics between the two of us. In other words, the absence of an aggressive plan to shoot a number (even if its 95) is timid play even if the player is not consciously trying to be cautious.

 

They make aggressive swings all the time, they just don't seem to think "I'm going to go low by doing X" they think "I really hope I remember how not to slice so this isn't a disaster".

 

They are high cappers for a reason. A 'better' or more well thought out plan off the tee isn't going to change that.

 

I completely disagree with this. Its a chicken and egg issue. I believe they are high capper precisely *Because* they don't have a plan. Now, yes, there is a baseline level of competence. However, if you have hit good shots before you can do it again. Its all above your shoulders and between your ears at that point. If you are hitting two inches fat 10 times a round, I agree with you - no plan can fix that. But once you have consistent contact it is surprisingly easy to get around the course well with a good head on your shoulders and a well thought out plan.

 

I asked this earlier in the thread - can I manage the course well because I am a 1 cap who doesn't attempt shots he knows he can't hit or am I a 1 cap *because* I manage the course and never hits shots I can't hit? I think its both.

 

The other day I saw a guy hitting 7 irons high and straight on the range. Looked decent. he pushed his drive right into the trees on the first hole. Great guy at my club, names Rick. He got into the trees, hit a tree, and it was a mess. Two days later he was out there again, hitting 7 irons high and straight again.

 

Why wasn't he spending 5 minutes practicing getting out of the trees? He's probably there 3-5 times a round.

 

I think it is much more mental - from course plan to practice plan to self-consciousness - than you do. Once you have a swing that has (1) a relatively predictable ball flight (2) consistent contact and (3) enough speed to play the tees you choose to play from, you experience a massive amount of diminish returns from further refining that swing. I've been a member at that club since 2009, its relatively tree-lined, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen people on the range dialing in line-drive swings that go 100, 150, 175, 200, etc... to get out of the woods predictably *even though* the average 15 at the course is probably in the woods 5 times a round. Mind-boggling to me. But they just high, straight 7 irons as if that is what they actually hit on the course!

 

Most people practice / play golf like its 70% basketball (physical skill) and 30% chess (mental skill), whereas I think its 70% chess and 30% basketball. The driving range looks like people shooting 3 pointers in an empty gym for some reason. But, I know I am in the minority here.

 

Well, I live here but not actually 'from' NH. Been here almost 20 years and still considered a flat lander (CT).

 

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BT,

Plan for Ko'olau to be an all carry-no roll fairway and get it safely in play (even if have to use 3 wood-lol!). Enjoyed playing it occasionally when lived on Oahu, you will find some golfers get beat up by place because gets in their head, you should enjoy the challenge.

 

The other 2 times I played it (July '13 and Jan. '14) I shot high 90s. First time it was relatively dry and second time it was soaked. Back then I didn't plan things like I do now. Curious to see if it makes a difference. Love the course though. Hoping I can talk my Dad into playing it too.

 

BT

 

Man, New England to Hawaii and Stuart is from NH. I was born in NH (Amherst) and you guys are tougher than me. Had to flee south!

 

LOL! I'm a transplant too, except from farther south in East Texas. I had all the 115* / 80% humidity I could take and move up North to cool off.

 

I agree about High Cappers. Hardly any of them know how to practice. I have begun to "kind of" look at you strategy and play a bit more aggressively. I just have to spend some time on the touch shots some more. Still more comfortable with a full shot. We'll see.

 

BT

 

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Most people practice / play golf like its 70% basketball (physical skill) and 30% chess (mental skill), whereas I think its 70% chess and 30% basketball. The driving range looks like people shooting 3 pointers in an empty gym for some reason. But, I know I am in the minority here.

 

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

Golf is a MENTAL game, and its a game of momentum and confidence. If there are two golfers, and they play a hole as such:

 

A) Drive to Fairway, Iron to Green, Putt, Putt

B) Driver to Rough, Wedge to Bunker, SW to Green, Putt

 

Who is probably going to feel more confident about their swing/game on the next hole? Who is going to be more mentally exhausted?

My buddies can laugh at me all they want, but I switched to "If a bad shot with my X will beat a decent/good shot with Y...I'm going to take X".

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There's "recreational golf", and then there's "club golf", and then there's "championship golf". Unless you play golf at an elite level, in tournaments that really mean something... you play "club golf" (which often includes most am tournaments too). Unless you actually care what you score, you play "recreational golf".

 

If you want to play "championship golf" in the modern era, you are simply giving up too much to not hit the best shot for the situation. You have to be prepared, talented enough, and mentally strong enough to grow a sack and hit the tough shot. Think of DJ at the US Open hitting driver over and over right down the throat of the course. If you want to win, you have to, and you can pull it off almost every time when it's your week. You look for the slightest advantage you can to go low, or go home. You have to shape your shots to match the course design to help feed the golf ball in the desired direction to reach pins or positions, and control the roll on the ground as much as possible. You need to flight your ball to maximize your distance control, where a 10 foot difference on any 1 out of 72 holes can mean winning or losing pretty easily that week. And when you don't pull the shot off, you can recover quickly and effectively.

 

To play "club golf" well, you don't need to hit the ball that far, or that high, or that shaped. You don't have to push your swing or capabilities. 250 yards (that's 280 in club talk) is really long. It's so long, you'll probably have a chance of reaching many par 5s in 2 shots. The greens are slower and receptive, so shot height matters much less, and most pins are placed in accessible positions where a shot to the middle of the green is a reasonable 2 putt. Forced carries can be rare, and often discouraged by designers (especially if you play the white tees). The reward for being aggressive isn't always there, and the course doesn't require it to score really well. These golfers that are trying to hit shots like as if they can play "championship golf" are not helping their games by playing that aggressive (on a course that wasn't designed for it), or trying to pull off shots that range from 1 in 10 to nearly a miracle. Also, that extra 10 yards they want off the tee is killing them, and if they learn from the pros and play the shot shape they have that day, they'd play much better. Heck, you can play long iron / short iron around most of the courses, so there's no point in pushing it.

 

Now... if you play "recreational golf", and you don't really care that much about score (but want to play well enough to have fun), then you should hit whatever the heck you want. Hit the driver on every hole if that makes you happy. If it goes OB, tee up another one. Whatever. Telling these guys to hit a 3 wood instead of a driver for any reason other than to possibly lose a few less balls, I don't see the point. And sometimes they haven't practiced enough to have any better of a chance with a driver vs. a 3 wood anyway. Just have fun, keep up with the group in front of you, and leave the course like you found it.

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I was struggling with tee strategy on my home course when I restarted golf last year, so inspired by the mark broadie book I built a crude Monte Carlo simulator in excel:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1430088-monte-carlo-simulation-for-strategy/

 

The model doesn't really care about fairway vs rough, it cares about in play vs not. As others have said, resultant proximity to the hole is largely a function of distance to the hole, as long as the ball is readily playable. I therefore used the model to get the ball as far down the hole as possible with a high % of shots in play. My best gain by employing this was a reduction of 0.4 shots per hole by switching from driver to 3i. This approach dramatically increased my shots in play which meant I was making lots of bogies and some pars from the longer approach shot. At the time using a driver resulted in more pars (slightly more than using a 3i off the tee), but a high % of doubles or worse resulting from hitting the ball into trees or worse.

 

Before I got injured at the start of this season my driver dispersion had come down so my optimum strategy changed again. I kept the ball in play and because I was closer to the green I made even more pars resulting in another 0.3 shots dropped.

 

 

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Actually driver head weights haven't changed much at all since the days of the 43.5" persimmon clubs, in fact some have gotten a bit heavier. It's the shafts that the OEM's have "messed with" to get the longer lengths (lighter and counterbalanced). So getting the shorter lengths to work isn't really that hard.

 

And I can guarantee you that both Rory and Ernie are not playing off the shelf clubs and were fit for playing length (along with all the other specs) - just like everyone else should be.

 

I think "they exist to satisfy the ego of hacks" is a bit extreme.

 

No idea why you're making that response to that particular post?

 

 

As for the rest, haven't had a lot of time to respond and after some more thought decided not much point anyways since this is not really a fact based and no real supporting evidence on either side. And much of where you're starting to go has less and less to do with the original question. Your new thread is a better place to continue discussing those types of theories.

 

So for now, the only thing we can agree on - is that we don't agree on a whole lot :-) :drinks:

 

 

Please tell me your not a Yankee fan.

 

No, never was. I grew up in the heart of the DMZ separating the yankees and sox fans. Got so sick of the rivalry I decided to rebel and disavow both teams.

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The best round of the year for me, shooting my HC, was when I decided to only use 3w once as opposed to 4-5 times per the usual. Even the one time was a 360 yd par 4 with loads of trouble all right and I still had a knockdown 7i in and shot par. I never had more than a 7i all day on my approaches and had the most GIR and pars I've ever had. Distance is king off the tee, once you learn to keep it in play, and a short iron for approaches to me is the only way I can see myself getting to a 10-13 HC. Hitting hybrids-6i into greens on par 4/5s is no way to get out of a 18-22 HC IMO. So if you find yourself hitting 3w too often, I'd get a lesson or work on a driver fitting to get that sorted out.

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The best round of the year for me, shooting my HC, was when I decided to only use 3w once as opposed to 4-5 times per the usual. Even the one time was a 360 yd par 4 with loads of trouble all right and I still had a knockdown 7i in and shot par. I never had more than a 7i all day on my approaches and had the most GIR and pars I've ever had. Distance is king off the tee, once you learn to keep it in play, and a short iron for approaches to me is the only way I can see myself getting to a 10-13 HC. Hitting hybrids-6i into greens on par 4/5s is no way to get out of a 18-22 HC IMO. So if you find yourself hitting 3w too often, I'd get a lesson or work on a driver fitting to get that sorted out.

 

Totally agree. My goal is to go driver wedge on every hole possible. I know if I can get my driver to a position that is relatively playable and within 125 yards I will most likely be able to putt the ball on the green and give myself a putt at birdie.

 

Once I start hitting 6 irons into the green, it becomes much harder to hit the green let alone get close to the hole to give my chance at making a putt. A 360-380 yard hole is not an invitation to hit your fairway wood, it is an opportunity to hit your driver and put yourself in a position to score. If I mishit the ball I am still hitting an 9 or 8 into the green. If I hit it well, then I will have an 80-100 yard pitch.

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The best round of the year for me, shooting my HC, was when I decided to only use 3w once as opposed to 4-5 times per the usual. Even the one time was a 360 yd par 4 with loads of trouble all right and I still had a knockdown 7i in and shot par. I never had more than a 7i all day on my approaches and had the most GIR and pars I've ever had. Distance is king off the tee, once you learn to keep it in play, and a short iron for approaches to me is the only way I can see myself getting to a 10-13 HC. Hitting hybrids-6i into greens on par 4/5s is no way to get out of a 18-22 HC IMO. So if you find yourself hitting 3w too often, I'd get a lesson or work on a driver fitting to get that sorted out.

 

Totally agree. My goal is to go driver wedge on every hole possible. I know if I can get my driver to a position that is relatively playable and within 125 yards I will most likely be able to putt the ball on the green and give myself a putt at birdie.

 

Once I start hitting 6 irons into the green, it becomes much harder to hit the green let alone get close to the hole to give my chance at making a putt. A 360-380 yard hole is not an invitation to hit your fairway wood, it is an opportunity to hit your driver and put yourself in a position to score. If I mishit the ball I am still hitting an 9 or 8 into the green. If I hit it well, then I will have an 80-100 yard pitch.

 

One metric I found useful when playing like this (obviously I play aggressively) is how many -1 putts you have per round. So basically, if you have a shot to go any number under par you count it as that many. If I get a putt from 50 feet for birdie, thats 1. If I have makable putt from two yards off the green (maybe a fairway bailout area) for eagle that would be worth two (because if i make it its worth -2). Its like stableford, just factors out putting and only counts drivers and irons, but is a little less harsh than GIR (you can have makable shots from a lot of places in the green complex).

 

Its surprising how good this metric is at predicting your score. My goal is one -1 putt her hole (note it still counts even if it is unlikely, its not like +50% or anything, just that you have makable shot for -1 (or -2, in which case you count it as 2). Assuming I have putts (note not hit the green, have makable shots) on 2-3 of the par 5s, it means i can miss some holes and still likely shoot 72 or lower.

 

If you can get to 15 or 16 its fairly easy to shot par or under, and I like having that as my goal on the tee box rather than thinking i have to hit the green (since you don't really have to hit the green, just give yourself a makable shot for -1 - if you are good enough at chipping with your 8 iron you could count that. I'm not, but I'm good enough at holing bunker shots from medium range that i give myself half for them). If I hit 18+ total shots in the round for -1, I'm going low.

 

Just a little mental trick - I found it easier to count up this way rather than GIR (and you get 2 for a 5 in 2), but these posts are both right on.

G400 Max 9* Ventus Red 5X, SIM Ventus Red 6X 

Callaway Mavrik 4 (18*) - AW (46*) Project X 5.5

Vokey SM4 50* SM5 56*

Cameron Phantom 5S

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One metric I found useful when playing like this (obviously I play aggressively) is how many -1 putts you have per round. So basically, if you have a shot to go any number under par you count it as that many. If I get a putt from 50 feet for birdie, thats 1. If I have makable putt from two yards off the green (maybe a fairway bailout area) for eagle that would be worth two (because if i make it its worth -2). Its like stableford, just factors out putting and only counts drivers and irons, but is a little less harsh than GIR (you can have makable shots from a lot of places in the green complex).

 

Its surprising how good this metric is at predicting your score. My goal is one -1 putt her hole (note it still counts even if it is unlikely, its not like +50% or anything, just that you have makable shot for -1 (or -2, in which case you count it as 2). Assuming I have putts (note not hit the green, have makable shots) on 2-3 of the par 5s, it means i can miss some holes and still likely shoot 72 or lower.

 

If you can get to 15 or 16 its fairly easy to shot par or under, and I like having that as my goal on the tee box rather than thinking i have to hit the green (since you don't really have to hit the green, just give yourself a makable shot for -1 - if you are good enough at chipping with your 8 iron you could count that. I'm not, but I'm good enough at holing bunker shots from medium range that i give myself half for them). If I hit 18+ total shots in the round for -1, I'm going low.

 

Just a little mental trick - I found it easier to count up this way rather than GIR (and you get 2 for a 5 in 2), but these posts are both right on.

 

I'm not this detailed with statistics yet. I doubt I will ever be. To be honest, when I think about it that much it takes the fun out of the game for me. I would much prefer to analyze the round after it than during.

 

I just know, from experience over the past 14 years of playing golf, that when I have a wedge in my hand vs an 8 iron that ball has a better chance of getting closer to the hole. Same goes for the 7 iron vs a 4 iron, or even a 65 yard pitch vs 100 yard shot. Knowing that makes me want to be more aggressive on the tee which will allow me to be more aggressive when I am hitting into greens.

 

 

I am looking at getting a stat tracker. I have been looking at the Arccos 360, just have yet to pull the trigger on it yet.

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The best round of the year for me, shooting my HC, was when I decided to only use 3w once as opposed to 4-5 times per the usual. Even the one time was a 360 yd par 4 with loads of trouble all right and I still had a knockdown 7i in and shot par. I never had more than a 7i all day on my approaches and had the most GIR and pars I've ever had. Distance is king off the tee, once you learn to keep it in play, and a short iron for approaches to me is the only way I can see myself getting to a 10-13 HC. Hitting hybrids-6i into greens on par 4/5s is no way to get out of a 18-22 HC IMO. So if you find yourself hitting 3w too often, I'd get a lesson or work on a driver fitting to get that sorted out.

 

Totally agree. My goal is to go driver wedge on every hole possible. I know if I can get my driver to a position that is relatively playable and within 125 yards I will most likely be able to putt the ball on the green and give myself a putt at birdie.

 

Once I start hitting 6 irons into the green, it becomes much harder to hit the green let alone get close to the hole to give my chance at making a putt. A 360-380 yard hole is not an invitation to hit your fairway wood, it is an opportunity to hit your driver and put yourself in a position to score. If I mishit the ball I am still hitting an 9 or 8 into the green. If I hit it well, then I will have an 80-100 yard pitch.

 

One metric I found useful when playing like this (obviously I play aggressively) is how many -1 putts you have per round. So basically, if you have a shot to go any number under par you count it as that many. If I get a putt from 50 feet for birdie, thats 1. If I have makable putt from two yards off the green (maybe a fairway bailout area) for eagle that would be worth two (because if i make it its worth -2). Its like stableford, just factors out putting and only counts drivers and irons, but is a little less harsh than GIR (you can have makable shots from a lot of places in the green complex).

 

Its surprising how good this metric is at predicting your score. My goal is one -1 putt her hole (note it still counts even if it is unlikely, its not like +50% or anything, just that you have makable shot for -1 (or -2, in which case you count it as 2). Assuming I have putts (note not hit the green, have makable shots) on 2-3 of the par 5s, it means i can miss some holes and still likely shoot 72 or lower.

 

If you can get to 15 or 16 its fairly easy to shot par or under, and I like having that as my goal on the tee box rather than thinking i have to hit the green (since you don't really have to hit the green, just give yourself a makable shot for -1 - if you are good enough at chipping with your 8 iron you could count that. I'm not, but I'm good enough at holing bunker shots from medium range that i give myself half for them). If I hit 18+ total shots in the round for -1, I'm going low.

 

Just a little mental trick - I found it easier to count up this way rather than GIR (and you get 2 for a 5 in 2), but these posts are both right on.

Holing bunker shots but not good enough to bump and run a 8 iron? come on.
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The best round of the year for me, shooting my HC, was when I decided to only use 3w once as opposed to 4-5 times per the usual. Even the one time was a 360 yd par 4 with loads of trouble all right and I still had a knockdown 7i in and shot par. I never had more than a 7i all day on my approaches and had the most GIR and pars I've ever had. Distance is king off the tee, once you learn to keep it in play, and a short iron for approaches to me is the only way I can see myself getting to a 10-13 HC. Hitting hybrids-6i into greens on par 4/5s is no way to get out of a 18-22 HC IMO. So if you find yourself hitting 3w too often, I'd get a lesson or work on a driver fitting to get that sorted out.

 

Totally agree. My goal is to go driver wedge on every hole possible. I know if I can get my driver to a position that is relatively playable and within 125 yards I will most likely be able to putt the ball on the green and give myself a putt at birdie.

 

Once I start hitting 6 irons into the green, it becomes much harder to hit the green let alone get close to the hole to give my chance at making a putt. A 360-380 yard hole is not an invitation to hit your fairway wood, it is an opportunity to hit your driver and put yourself in a position to score. If I mishit the ball I am still hitting an 9 or 8 into the green. If I hit it well, then I will have an 80-100 yard pitch.

 

One metric I found useful when playing like this (obviously I play aggressively) is how many -1 putts you have per round. So basically, if you have a shot to go any number under par you count it as that many. If I get a putt from 50 feet for birdie, thats 1. If I have makable putt from two yards off the green (maybe a fairway bailout area) for eagle that would be worth two (because if i make it its worth -2). Its like stableford, just factors out putting and only counts drivers and irons, but is a little less harsh than GIR (you can have makable shots from a lot of places in the green complex).

 

Its surprising how good this metric is at predicting your score. My goal is one -1 putt her hole (note it still counts even if it is unlikely, its not like +50% or anything, just that you have makable shot for -1 (or -2, in which case you count it as 2). Assuming I have putts (note not hit the green, have makable shots) on 2-3 of the par 5s, it means i can miss some holes and still likely shoot 72 or lower.

 

If you can get to 15 or 16 its fairly easy to shot par or under, and I like having that as my goal on the tee box rather than thinking i have to hit the green (since you don't really have to hit the green, just give yourself a makable shot for -1 - if you are good enough at chipping with your 8 iron you could count that. I'm not, but I'm good enough at holing bunker shots from medium range that i give myself half for them). If I hit 18+ total shots in the round for -1, I'm going low.

 

Just a little mental trick - I found it easier to count up this way rather than GIR (and you get 2 for a 5 in 2), but these posts are both right on.

Holing bunker shots but not good enough to bump and run a 8 iron? come on.

 

Me neither. I never practiced chipping with 8 iron.

 

I usually chip with 50 or 58 depending on how much roll i need

[color=#0000cd][b]Taylormade M1 460 8.5* (2016) Tensei Pro Orange 70TX[/b][/color]
[color=#0000ff][b]TEE E8 Beta 13* 3 Wood Aldila Rogue Silver 70X[/b][/color]
[color=#0000ff][b]Callaway Razr X MB H Stamp 3-PW [/b][/color][color=#0000ff][b]DGX100[/b][/color]
[color=#0000ff][b]Titleist Vokey SM6 50* | SM5 54* | 58*[/b][/color]
[color=#b22222][b]Scotty Cameron Select Newport 2 34" Super Stroke Slim 3.0 CounterCore[/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b]Callaway FT-9 Tour 8.5* iMix Fubuki Tour 63X[/b][/color]
[color=#0000ff][b]Titleist 681T 2-PW DGS400[/b][/color]
[b]Odyssey Protype ix #1 34" Super Stroke Slim 3.0[/b]

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