3W vs Driver off the tee

[ThinkingPlus]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

[Stuart_G]

Guys, I mean, let's be serious here a minute.

 

Phil decided not to go with driver this week, and look at how he's playing.

 

+10 and a MC.

 

Clearly, 3W is the wrong club, and amateurs need to start bagging driver. Phil proved 3W doesn't work.

 

But he only hit 29% of the fairways with that set-up today. If he had used a shorter clubs, he would have been more accurate, hit more fairways and scored better :taunt:

[ph00ny]

Guys, I mean, let's be serious here a minute.

 

Phil decided not to go with driver this week, and look at how he's playing.

 

+10 and a MC.

 

Clearly, 3W is the wrong club, and amateurs need to start bagging driver. Phil proved 3W doesn't work.

 

But he only hit 29% of the fairways with that set-up today. If he had used a shorter clubs, he would have been more accurate, hit more fairways and scored better :taunt:

 

Will need to hit the 64* wedge to improve upon this

[rawdog]

Guys, I mean, let's be serious here a minute.

 

Phil decided not to go with driver this week, and look at how he's playing.

 

+10 and a MC.

 

Clearly, 3W is the wrong club, and amateurs need to start bagging driver. Phil proved 3W doesn't work.

 

But he only hit 29% of the fairways with that set-up today. If he had used a shorter clubs, he would have been more accurate, hit more fairways and scored better :taunt:

 

Three wedges and a putt still makes 4, right?

[pinestreetgolf]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

 

That is very surprising to me. You are obviously an extremely good player at a +.8. It must be absolutely insane rough for you to be "lucky to get it on the green" with a wedge. That sounds like US Open level rough.

 

Nothing says that Rough can't be a stroke-costing hazard, and in some cases it is. People who don't actually keep their statistics generally think in extremes - "I'm fantastic from fairway and lucky to hit green from rough" - I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying to be that level at golf and "lucky to hit the green" with the wedge means that, at your course, rough should probably be treated like water. However, most of the time people think the lie influences their shots much more than it actually does because of the way the human brain applies blame.

 

Player 1, from a wasty area with clear view: Dang! I missed. Tough lie.

Player 1, next hole, from Fairway: Dang! Picked my head up.

 

When is the last time you saw / heard a player in a "bad" lie blame their own swing? They always blame the lie. If they are in the fairway, they can't. The result is a skewed view where the lie is to blame when off the fairway and the swing when on. You can make bad swings when the ball isn't on the fairway. Sure, lie matters. But lots (most?) of players ascribe too much blame to it for bad shots because they can (when they're in the fairway, they can't). This leads to a memory/thought pattern that bad lies cause bad shots that isn't nearly as extreme as they think it is. They don't think "crap my weight wasn't left" they think "dammit I hit the bunker off the tee" after the ball leaves the iron. That doesn't exist when they hit the fairway in other words their brain starts blaming the tee shot instead of the iron swing out of bad lies way too often (not always, just too much).

 

Its a grey zone and a sliding scale of lie and swing in varying percentages to make the shot more or less effective. Players are too scared of "bad lies" because their brain has usually blamed a lie like that over and over and over in the past for a bad shot. You can make mechanical mistakes from bad lies too, but we rarely think that way in our memories.

 

And the number one reason - 99% of golfers practice from perfect lies without any obstacles (they hit high, long shots on the range from perfect lies - I see them moving the ball around with their club to get just a slight upslope in practcie). Practicing this way basically guarantees it will be 2-3x more difficult to hit a shot out of a bad lie (or around an obstacle) on the course. Very few golfers practice hitting irons out of really messed up spots (which they should). I would wager $100 that less than 75% of this forum has 100, 125, 150, 175 and 200 yard ground ball clubs, but with two hours of practice that shot will cut 2-3 strokes off. Instead they just b*tch about missing the fairway and have no idea how to hit under a tree branch because it isn't a high shot from a clean fairway lie i.e. the shot they hit when they "practice" on the range.

 

EDIT:

One of the best things I did when stuck around an 11, at my teacher's prompting, was to hit my first range shot as a full, hard sand wedge and then hit every subsequent shot out of that divot (not matter how deep or hard it got over the practice session). Makes a fairway bunker seem like a lush fairway.

[LoopySwing13]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

 

I am not saying I don't try to hit a fairway, but in play with a chance at the green is acceptable. Again, trying to read too far into things I think, am I happy if I hit it in the sand or rough? No, but will it deter me from hitting driver on the next hole? Absolutely not. I play mostly in Florida, so it can be some bad lies with heavier Bermuda, and in that case I may have to punch an iron at the middle. Why not hit it to the middle where an average putt may be 30/35 feet and take a par?

 

Since we already said fairways aren't a reliable stay related to score, I am generally not far off line and try to select clubs to take out fairway bunkers or water hazards if they are in play. I am just saying that if I am in the left edge of the fairway but behind a tree now having to hit a low runner, instead of hitting down the right said and bringing the rough into play, but now I can hit a wedge to the green so what? Should I have hit 4 iron to lay back from the tree to have an 7 iron in?

[tsecor]

Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. - Aaron Levenstein

 

I asked a statistician for her phone number... and she gave me an estimate.

[ThinkingPlus]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

 

That is very surprising to me. You are obviously an extremely good player at a +.8. It must be absolutely insane rough for you to be "lucky to get it on the green" with a wedge. That sounds like US Open level rough.

 

Nothing says that Rough can't be a stroke-costing hazard, and in some cases it is. People who don't actually keep their statistics generally think in extremes - "I'm fantastic from fairway and lucky to hit green from rough" - I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying to be that level at golf and "lucky to hit the green" with the wedge means that, at your course, rough should probably be treated like water. However, most of the time people think the lie influences their shots much more than it actually does because of the way the human brain applies blame.

 

Player 1, from a wasty area with clear view: Dang! I missed. Tough lie.

Player 1, next hole, from Fairway: Dang! Picked my head up.

 

When is the last time you saw / heard a player in a "bad" lie blame their own swing? They always blame the lie. If they are in the fairway, they can't. The result is a skewed view where the lie is to blame when off the fairway and the swing when on. You can make bad swings when the ball isn't on the fairway. Sure, lie matters. But lots (most?) of players ascribe too much blame to it for bad shots because they can (when they're in the fairway, they can't). This leads to a memory/thought pattern that bad lies cause bad shots that isn't nearly as extreme as they think it is. They don't think "crap my weight wasn't left" they think "dammit I hit the bunker off the tee" after the ball leaves the iron. That doesn't exist when they hit the fairway in other words their brain starts blaming the tee shot instead of the iron swing out of bad lies way too often (not always, just too much).

 

During the summer (monsoon season) the rough is very thick and about 3" - 4" in places. While fairly strong for a woman, I am not overly tall and tend to sweep the ball (turf is firm here as well so diggers don't last long). Hitting out of substantial rough is not high on my skill list. In the fall, winter, and early spring the rough isn't a's big a deal and one can be a little more aggressive.

[pinestreetgolf]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

 

That is very surprising to me. You are obviously an extremely good player at a +.8. It must be absolutely insane rough for you to be "lucky to get it on the green" with a wedge. That sounds like US Open level rough.

 

Nothing says that Rough can't be a stroke-costing hazard, and in some cases it is. People who don't actually keep their statistics generally think in extremes - "I'm fantastic from fairway and lucky to hit green from rough" - I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying to be that level at golf and "lucky to hit the green" with the wedge means that, at your course, rough should probably be treated like water. However, most of the time people think the lie influences their shots much more than it actually does because of the way the human brain applies blame.

 

Player 1, from a wasty area with clear view: Dang! I missed. Tough lie.

Player 1, next hole, from Fairway: Dang! Picked my head up.

 

When is the last time you saw / heard a player in a "bad" lie blame their own swing? They always blame the lie. If they are in the fairway, they can't. The result is a skewed view where the lie is to blame when off the fairway and the swing when on. You can make bad swings when the ball isn't on the fairway. Sure, lie matters. But lots (most?) of players ascribe too much blame to it for bad shots because they can (when they're in the fairway, they can't). This leads to a memory/thought pattern that bad lies cause bad shots that isn't nearly as extreme as they think it is. They don't think "crap my weight wasn't left" they think "dammit I hit the bunker off the tee" after the ball leaves the iron. That doesn't exist when they hit the fairway in other words their brain starts blaming the tee shot instead of the iron swing out of bad lies way too often (not always, just too much).

 

During the summer (monsoon season) the rough is very thick and about 3" - 4" in places. While fairly strong for a woman, I am not overly tall and tend to sweep the ball (turf is firm here as well so diggers don't last long). Hitting out of substantial rough is not high on my skill list. In the fall, winter, and early spring the rough isn't a's big a deal and one can be a little more aggressive.

 

Every course and player is different, because benefit also has to be analyzed. If your a good wedge player (say you get down on average in 2.5 instead of 3 from 100) you should be a bit more aggressive. If its 2.95, then there isn't any benefit to bombing it where the rough comes into play (obviously). Golf isn't chess IMO, so knowing the rules is essential to knowing when your home course (or whatever course) requires you break them. We have one of those here (The Bridges, a devilish Palmer design that is very short and very penal off the fairway - basically missing always costs you a stroke). However, understanding the numbers and what makes a tee shot "good" (Decreases your expected score from what it was when you began the hole) is really important IMO.

 

Its mainly the obsession with "fairway" that I object so strongly to. The OP hates "statistics" despite talking about "Fairways hit" constantly earlier in the thread. "Fairways hit" is a statistic (just a bad one). He likes statistics, he just likes conventional statistics (number of putts, number of fairways, etc...) and for some reason that he has not articulated doesn't like unconventional statistics (like strokes gained). People like the OP are obsessed with conventional golf wisdom of fairway good, rough bad. Its not nearly that simple.

 

EDIT:

Then again, if you never practice hitting ground balls and line drives, the woods is probably a stroke-costing hazard for players. Its all about knowing your own game and tailoring the tactics to it. "I hit the fairway then I hit a high iron shot to the middle of the green" on most holes is a fantasy for 99% of golfers. Its too hard. If they accepted that was too hard (its too hard for me to do 18 times, and I'm a 1.8-ish hdcp), knew they were going to practiced the shots that they would need when they missed, they'd score a lot lower. (This was the point i was driving at in the consistency thread - you arn't going to hit 18 fairways and 18 greens ever. You'll probably never hit 10. Yet I never see anyone practicing on the range the shots they need when they miss).

 

Everyone agrees the short game is important. Its what you need when you miss the iron. People practice it constantly. Nobody practices what they need when they miss the tee club, so when they miss the fairway they blame the tee shot for the bad score whereas when they skull a chip they blame the short game (and not the missed iron that caused the chip to be taken). Its nuts.

 

SECOND EDIT:

Player 1 hits his iron pin-high right and blades a chip through the green. "Darnit! Need to practice my chipping!" (no mention of hitting the 8 and not the 7 iron).

Player 2 hits his drive into the woods. His ground ball is hit fat and kinda plops out still near the treeline. "Darnit! Need to go to a 3 wood so I'm not in the woods!" (no mention that he can't hit a ground ball with an iron)

 

Those two are exactly the same thing and the player has responded completely differently. You are not going to go significantly lower by pulling back tee shot distance so you don't have to learn how to hit iron recovery shots. Go learn how to hit recovery shots (its actually not that hard, if you try) and wallop the driver. Its short game for driver misses. Having a good recovery shot game allows you to attack w tee shots like having a good short game allows you to fire at pins.

[LoopySwing13]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

 

That is very surprising to me. You are obviously an extremely good player at a +.8. It must be absolutely insane rough for you to be "lucky to get it on the green" with a wedge. That sounds like US Open level rough.

 

Nothing says that Rough can't be a stroke-costing hazard, and in some cases it is. People who don't actually keep their statistics generally think in extremes - "I'm fantastic from fairway and lucky to hit green from rough" - I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying to be that level at golf and "lucky to hit the green" with the wedge means that, at your course, rough should probably be treated like water. However, most of the time people think the lie influences their shots much more than it actually does because of the way the human brain applies blame.

 

Player 1, from a wasty area with clear view: Dang! I missed. Tough lie.

Player 1, next hole, from Fairway: Dang! Picked my head up.

 

When is the last time you saw / heard a player in a "bad" lie blame their own swing? They always blame the lie. If they are in the fairway, they can't. The result is a skewed view where the lie is to blame when off the fairway and the swing when on. You can make bad swings when the ball isn't on the fairway. Sure, lie matters. But lots (most?) of players ascribe too much blame to it for bad shots because they can (when they're in the fairway, they can't). This leads to a memory/thought pattern that bad lies cause bad shots that isn't nearly as extreme as they think it is. They don't think "crap my weight wasn't left" they think "dammit I hit the bunker off the tee" after the ball leaves the iron. That doesn't exist when they hit the fairway in other words their brain starts blaming the tee shot instead of the iron swing out of bad lies way too often (not always, just too much).

 

During the summer (monsoon season) the rough is very thick and about 3" - 4" in places. While fairly strong for a woman, I am not overly tall and tend to sweep the ball (turf is firm here as well so diggers don't last long). Hitting out of substantial rough is not high on my skill list. In the fall, winter, and early spring the rough isn't a's big a deal and one can be a little more aggressive.

 

Every course and player is different, because benefit also has to be analyzed. If your a good wedge player (say you get down on average in 2.5 instead of 3 from 100) you should be a bit more aggressive. If its 2.95, then there isn't any benefit to bombing it where the rough comes into play (obviously). Golf isn't chess IMO, so knowing the rules is essential to knowing when your home course (or whatever course) requires you break them. We have one of those here (The Bridges, a devilish Palmer design that is very short and very penal off the fairway - basically missing always costs you a stroke). However, understanding the numbers and what makes a tee shot "good" (Decreases your expected score from what it was when you began the hole) is really important IMO.

 

Its mainly the obsession with "fairway" that I object so strongly to. The OP hates "statistics" despite talking about "Fairways hit" constantly earlier in the thread. "Fairways hit" is a statistic (just a bad one). He likes statistics, he just likes conventional statistics (number of putts, number of fairways, etc...) and for some reason that he has not articulated doesn't like unconventional statistics (like strokes gained). People like the OP are obsessed with conventional golf wisdom of fairway good, rough bad. Its not nearly that simple.

 

People like the OP are obsessed with conventional golf wisdom of fairway good, rough bad. Its not nearly that simple.

 

100% agree. The range is the place to pick out a landing area and focus on targets and making sure you are hitting your targets. When you are on the course, you have to PLAY golf. if your swing is off that day, play the miss. Take one side of the course out of play. If I am drawing the ball too much I aim to the right side of the fairway. If it's a fade then I aim left. I have seen a few times in this thread where people say, oh well better players or people who practice it doesn't matter.. Well they put in the work to have a repeatable swing.

 

There is hitting shots and then there is playing golf. Learning to play golf is hard, as dumb as that may sound, but that is what will allow you to shoot lower scores. Stats are great but 14/14 fairways doesn't guarantee you a 68. In fact, my lowest round ever 68 and my lowest 9 hole score 33 was not all fairways and greens. I had a chip in both of those rounds. But I played what I had that day and didn't worry about where my ball was.

 

Ask boo weekly considered by many in tour as a top ball striker. That guy was up there in fairways and greens but couldn't putt at all. It's a complete game not just pieces of it.

[rawdog]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

 

That is very surprising to me. You are obviously an extremely good player at a +.8. It must be absolutely insane rough for you to be "lucky to get it on the green" with a wedge. That sounds like US Open level rough.

 

Nothing says that Rough can't be a stroke-costing hazard, and in some cases it is. People who don't actually keep their statistics generally think in extremes - "I'm fantastic from fairway and lucky to hit green from rough" - I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying to be that level at golf and "lucky to hit the green" with the wedge means that, at your course, rough should probably be treated like water. However, most of the time people think the lie influences their shots much more than it actually does because of the way the human brain applies blame.

 

Player 1, from a wasty area with clear view: Dang! I missed. Tough lie.

Player 1, next hole, from Fairway: Dang! Picked my head up.

 

When is the last time you saw / heard a player in a "bad" lie blame their own swing? They always blame the lie. If they are in the fairway, they can't. The result is a skewed view where the lie is to blame when off the fairway and the swing when on. You can make bad swings when the ball isn't on the fairway. Sure, lie matters. But lots (most?) of players ascribe too much blame to it for bad shots because they can (when they're in the fairway, they can't). This leads to a memory/thought pattern that bad lies cause bad shots that isn't nearly as extreme as they think it is. They don't think "crap my weight wasn't left" they think "dammit I hit the bunker off the tee" after the ball leaves the iron. That doesn't exist when they hit the fairway in other words their brain starts blaming the tee shot instead of the iron swing out of bad lies way too often (not always, just too much).

 

Its a grey zone and a sliding scale of lie and swing in varying percentages to make the shot more or less effective. Players are too scared of "bad lies" because their brain has usually blamed a lie like that over and over and over in the past for a bad shot. You can make mechanical mistakes from bad lies too, but we rarely think that way in our memories.

 

And the number one reason - 99% of golfers practice from perfect lies without any obstacles (they hit high, long shots on the range from perfect lies - I see them moving the ball around with their club to get just a slight upslope in practcie). Practicing this way basically guarantees it will be 2-3x more difficult to hit a shot out of a bad lie (or around an obstacle) on the course. Very few golfers practice hitting irons out of really messed up spots (which they should). I would wager $100 that less than 75% of this forum has 100, 125, 150, 175 and 200 yard ground ball clubs, but with two hours of practice that shot will cut 2-3 strokes off. Instead they just b*tch about missing the fairway and have no idea how to hit under a tree branch because it isn't a high shot from a clean fairway lie i.e. the shot they hit when they "practice" on the range.

 

EDIT:

One of the best things I did when stuck around an 11, at my teacher's prompting, was to hit my first range shot as a full, hard sand wedge and then hit every subsequent shot out of that divot (not matter how deep or hard it got over the practice session). Makes a fairway bunker seem like a lush fairway.

 

My 200 yard ground ball club was my strong 3w last year before I learned to hit down on it. Boy, I could hit low runners without even trying...

[tsecor]

What do the stats say on a Sunday afternoon, when the temps are 65 degrees and there is a 20 mph wind with bears in the woods.....what should you hit? Ask Fawcett what he thinks and let me know

[rawdog]

Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. - Aaron Levenstein

 

I asked a statistician for her phone number... and she gave me an estimate.

 

Statistics indicate that the average American is a guy named Brian who lives in Ohio.

 

-Demetri Martin

 

(one of my fave comics, check him out)

[LoopySwing13]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

 

That is very surprising to me. You are obviously an extremely good player at a +.8. It must be absolutely insane rough for you to be "lucky to get it on the green" with a wedge. That sounds like US Open level rough.

 

Nothing says that Rough can't be a stroke-costing hazard, and in some cases it is. People who don't actually keep their statistics generally think in extremes - "I'm fantastic from fairway and lucky to hit green from rough" - I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying to be that level at golf and "lucky to hit the green" with the wedge means that, at your course, rough should probably be treated like water. However, most of the time people think the lie influences their shots much more than it actually does because of the way the human brain applies blame.

 

Player 1, from a wasty area with clear view: Dang! I missed. Tough lie.

Player 1, next hole, from Fairway: Dang! Picked my head up.

 

When is the last time you saw / heard a player in a "bad" lie blame their own swing? They always blame the lie. If they are in the fairway, they can't. The result is a skewed view where the lie is to blame when off the fairway and the swing when on. You can make bad swings when the ball isn't on the fairway. Sure, lie matters. But lots (most?) of players ascribe too much blame to it for bad shots because they can (when they're in the fairway, they can't). This leads to a memory/thought pattern that bad lies cause bad shots that isn't nearly as extreme as they think it is. They don't think "crap my weight wasn't left" they think "dammit I hit the bunker off the tee" after the ball leaves the iron. That doesn't exist when they hit the fairway in other words their brain starts blaming the tee shot instead of the iron swing out of bad lies way too often (not always, just too much).

 

Its a grey zone and a sliding scale of lie and swing in varying percentages to make the shot more or less effective. Players are too scared of "bad lies" because their brain has usually blamed a lie like that over and over and over in the past for a bad shot. You can make mechanical mistakes from bad lies too, but we rarely think that way in our memories.

 

And the number one reason - 99% of golfers practice from perfect lies without any obstacles (they hit high, long shots on the range from perfect lies - I see them moving the ball around with their club to get just a slight upslope in practcie). Practicing this way basically guarantees it will be 2-3x more difficult to hit a shot out of a bad lie (or around an obstacle) on the course. Very few golfers practice hitting irons out of really messed up spots (which they should). I would wager $100 that less than 75% of this forum has 100, 125, 150, 175 and 200 yard ground ball clubs, but with two hours of practice that shot will cut 2-3 strokes off. Instead they just b*tch about missing the fairway and have no idea how to hit under a tree branch because it isn't a high shot from a clean fairway lie i.e. the shot they hit when they "practice" on the range.

 

EDIT:

One of the best things I did when stuck around an 11, at my teacher's prompting, was to hit my first range shot as a full, hard sand wedge and then hit every subsequent shot out of that divot (not matter how deep or hard it got over the practice session). Makes a fairway bunker seem like a lush fairway.

 

My 200 yard ground ball club was my strong 3w last year before I learned to hit down on it. Boy, I could hit low runners without even trying...

 

One of the best things to do by mixing in your range sessions... Strategic golf. Hit 6 irons 100 yards. Hit 3 woods 150 low. Nuke a 9 iron as high as you can. Go off a down hill lie if your range has tiered tee areas. Mash it down in rough if the range has rough near by. Hit a 4 iron out of a fairway bunker if you can. Learn how to utilize the clubs in your bag.

[JeffreySpicoli]

in 2010, at the World Science fair, they concluded up to 85% of stats are misleading or false.

 

You realize that was a joke because "85% of stats are false" *is* a stat, right?

 

Just roll with it. I think he was joking with us. Don't scare him off!

 

He's become our very own court jester! The jester struggles with actually being humorous though.

 

Matt, I like your stuff, but I don't share those sentiments!

 

I've learned that humor is really tough to convey online sometimes. And sometimes the funniest comments are the most unexpected.

 

We're all just hassling each other at this point, and it's funny to me. I have no ill will here.

 

Agreed and understood. Where we might diverge is not over ill will--I have none though I've lost quite a bit of patience--but rather that I read the OP as very serious about his disrespect for the scientific method and an associated understanding of rationality. If he actually engaged with his opponents (and Broadie, Fawcett, et. al.) then there's a lot more room for possible humor. Rather all we get from him are dismissive, incoherent, and, frankly, lame one liners.

[tsecor]

One day there was a fire in a garbage bin in the Dean's office. A physicist, chemist, and statistician run in to help.

 

The physicist starts calculating the amount of energy that would have to be removed from the fire in order to stop combustion.

 

The chemist starts working on a reagent that could be added to the fire to prevent oxidization.

 

Meanwhile, the statistician starts setting more fires around the office. In a panic, the physicist and chemist ask "what are you doing!?" to which the statistician replies, "to solve this problem you need a larger sample size!"

[Dan Drake]

Just a quick note and I didn't want to quote the wall of quotes.

 

PSG, I completely agree with practicing the shots you will need. I am a poor ball striker who plays on a difficult course that penalizes poor ball striking. So, while I still need to devote plenty of time making sure my full swing gets better, I also need to spend time working on my 130yd punch out shots. Why? Because the way my course is set up, if I'm aiming correctly (away from the full stroke penalties) and hitting the ball normally, I'm bound to have 1-2 of these shots per round.

 

Learning and hitting good shots from here can save me 1/2 to 2 strokes per round, which at my level is huge.

[tsecor]

Statistician who did not know how to swim drowned crossing a river that he calculated to be on average 3 ft deep. Hmmmmmmmm

[rawdog]

It really has been a revelation to stop worrying about fairway vs rough. I won't argue that some championship style courses I have played, medinah #3, calusa pines, southern highlands, etc will penalize you severely from the rough. But the reality is many of us don't play that style of golf all the time.

 

I guess it has sort of become after thought but my approach to a tee shot is to be as close to the green as is possible based on the layout of the hole, with an open shot at the flag. Rough, fairway or sand is acceptable because at that point it's about the next shot. Everyone can agree ob or water is bad, but with the exception of a horrid lie every 15-20 shots, you can at the very worst club up and aim to the center of the green.

 

It took me a few years to stop trying to buy a game and learn to hit the ball. It is very hard to come to grips with sometimes, but at some point your swing will let you down no matter how draw biased or low spinning your equipment is. A good, semi repeatable golf swing will get you better scores period. If you want to play safe golf and not practice I don't think anyone will argue with you. But to try and say I want to be a better golfer but not practice and use a strategy that is counter intuitive to any of the better players out there is incorrect.

 

As for Phil saying he doesn't need driver this week, it also worked for tiger before breakfast at Perkins. Did he not bring driver to the next stateside tournament? Of course he did, just like Phil will. You are talking about a course strategy specific to one tournament, not how to play golf over time.

 

Interesting. I spend most of my time trying to figure out the longest club I can hit that still gives me a high percentage of hitting the fairway. Playing from the rough at my home course is generally a non-starter even with a wedge or short iron. For me I am lucky to get it on the green and usually have very little distance control.

 

That is very surprising to me. You are obviously an extremely good player at a +.8. It must be absolutely insane rough for you to be "lucky to get it on the green" with a wedge. That sounds like US Open level rough.

 

Nothing says that Rough can't be a stroke-costing hazard, and in some cases it is. People who don't actually keep their statistics generally think in extremes - "I'm fantastic from fairway and lucky to hit green from rough" - I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying to be that level at golf and "lucky to hit the green" with the wedge means that, at your course, rough should probably be treated like water. However, most of the time people think the lie influences their shots much more than it actually does because of the way the human brain applies blame.

 

Player 1, from a wasty area with clear view: Dang! I missed. Tough lie.

Player 1, next hole, from Fairway: Dang! Picked my head up.

 

When is the last time you saw / heard a player in a "bad" lie blame their own swing? They always blame the lie. If they are in the fairway, they can't. The result is a skewed view where the lie is to blame when off the fairway and the swing when on. You can make bad swings when the ball isn't on the fairway. Sure, lie matters. But lots (most?) of players ascribe too much blame to it for bad shots because they can (when they're in the fairway, they can't). This leads to a memory/thought pattern that bad lies cause bad shots that isn't nearly as extreme as they think it is. They don't think "crap my weight wasn't left" they think "dammit I hit the bunker off the tee" after the ball leaves the iron. That doesn't exist when they hit the fairway in other words their brain starts blaming the tee shot instead of the iron swing out of bad lies way too often (not always, just too much).

 

Its a grey zone and a sliding scale of lie and swing in varying percentages to make the shot more or less effective. Players are too scared of "bad lies" because their brain has usually blamed a lie like that over and over and over in the past for a bad shot. You can make mechanical mistakes from bad lies too, but we rarely think that way in our memories.

 

And the number one reason - 99% of golfers practice from perfect lies without any obstacles (they hit high, long shots on the range from perfect lies - I see them moving the ball around with their club to get just a slight upslope in practcie). Practicing this way basically guarantees it will be 2-3x more difficult to hit a shot out of a bad lie (or around an obstacle) on the course. Very few golfers practice hitting irons out of really messed up spots (which they should). I would wager $100 that less than 75% of this forum has 100, 125, 150, 175 and 200 yard ground ball clubs, but with two hours of practice that shot will cut 2-3 strokes off. Instead they just b*tch about missing the fairway and have no idea how to hit under a tree branch because it isn't a high shot from a clean fairway lie i.e. the shot they hit when they "practice" on the range.

 

EDIT:

One of the best things I did when stuck around an 11, at my teacher's prompting, was to hit my first range shot as a full, hard sand wedge and then hit every subsequent shot out of that divot (not matter how deep or hard it got over the practice session). Makes a fairway bunker seem like a lush fairway.

 

My 200 yard ground ball club was my strong 3w last year before I learned to hit down on it. Boy, I could hit low runners without even trying...

 

One of the best things to do by mixing in your range sessions... Strategic golf. Hit 6 irons 100 yards. Hit 3 woods 150 low. Nuke a 9 iron as high as you can. Go off a down hill lie if your range has tiered tee areas. Mash it down in rough if the range has rough near by. Hit a 4 iron out of a fairway bunker if you can. Learn how to utilize the clubs in your bag.

 

About a mile from where I work there is a golf dome and all winter I spend the last 15 mins of my sessions to hood 4 irons, 8 irons, hybrids, etc. I then alternate hooks, slices, and straight shots to get my nice low runners.

 

My outdoor range has bunkers and greens out there that are awesome for shaping shots. Hitting 7i stock shots gets freaking old. I taught myself my nice low wedge shots by clubbing up to hit shorter targets. Low spinners.

 

I'll try and "slice" a GW to cut 10 yards off it. I'll work on big sweeping hook 8irons. I don't always pull of the shots I need to, but it's so much better than being totally unprepared. I can see what's possible and what I'm comfortable with. It has to be a pretty tucked shot to get me to concede a sideways punch out.

 

I think that's a lot of the fear folks have about being "blocked." They just can't work the ball because they don't try to.

 

Additionally, cutting 10 yards off a GW or just learning to hit "draw" and "fade" swings on my 55 or 60* wedges opens up a whole range of yardages I can comfortably find by taking a full swing and merely changing my stance and dynamic loft. It's invaluable.

[LoopySwing13]

Exactly. PSG alluded to it earlier, the best time to learn to hit a 130 PW over a tree, is not when you have 130 yards and a tree to get over. Admittingly, it can be hard to have an imagination at the range but it can certainly prepare you with a "feel" of what you did on the range.

[tsecor]

"I should have hit 3 wood on # 6" - Justin Thomas

[ph00ny]

Maybe it's just the way i learned how to play golf as a youngster with my father. We would usually play 18~36 holes and then hit up the range to hit two more buckets and practice what we were struggling with. I think this is the primary reason i've always enjoyed hitting the long stuff. Driver, fairway wood, long irons

[Stuart_G]

Guys, I mean, let's be serious here a minute.

 

Phil decided not to go with driver this week, and look at how he's playing.

 

+10 and a MC.

 

Clearly, 3W is the wrong club, and amateurs need to start bagging driver. Phil proved 3W doesn't work.

 

But he only hit 29% of the fairways with that set-up today. If he had used a shorter clubs, he would have been more accurate, hit more fairways and scored better :taunt:

 

Three wedges and a putt still makes 4, right?

 

actually I hate to say it but it is ironic, just found out, Phil had the driver back in the bag friday for his 77.

[rawdog]

Guys, I mean, let's be serious here a minute.

 

Phil decided not to go with driver this week, and look at how he's playing.

 

+10 and a MC.

 

Clearly, 3W is the wrong club, and amateurs need to start bagging driver. Phil proved 3W doesn't work.

 

But he only hit 29% of the fairways with that set-up today. If he had used a shorter clubs, he would have been more accurate, hit more fairways and scored better :taunt:

 

Three wedges and a putt still makes 4, right?

 

actually I hate to say it but it is ironic, just found out, Phil had the driver back in the bag friday for his 77.

 

Welp, there you have it.

 

I have a 12:24pm tee time tomorrow. If I want to shoot a 73, I'll take the driver out. If I want to shoot 77, I'll leave the driver in.

 

Guess I'm taking driver out. Case closed. Lock it up, boys.

[JeffreySpicoli]

Guys, I mean, let's be serious here a minute.

 

Phil decided not to go with driver this week, and look at how he's playing.

 

+10 and a MC.

 

Clearly, 3W is the wrong club, and amateurs need to start bagging driver. Phil proved 3W doesn't work.

 

But he only hit 29% of the fairways with that set-up today. If he had used a shorter clubs, he would have been more accurate, hit more fairways and scored better :taunt:

 

Three wedges and a putt still makes 4, right?

 

actually I hate to say it but it is ironic, just found out, Phil had the driver back in the bag friday for his 77.

 

Welp, there you have it.

 

I have a 12:24pm tee time tomorrow. If I want to shoot a 73, I'll take the driver out. If I want to shoot 77, I'll leave the driver in.

 

Guess I'm taking driver out. Case closed. Lock it up, boys.

 

Now that's truly funny! :D

[rawdog]

 

Now that's truly funny! :D

 

Thanks.

 

Enjoy your weekend, everyone.

 

I'm going to go pound the sh*t out of some balls tomorrow on a course where there's little to no reason to ever hit 3w over driver.

 

I guarantee I won't shoot 77 and then think a 3W would've saved me 4 shots.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Grey+Hawk+Golf+Club/@41.2510549,-82.1037032,690m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8830a38a1214e13d:0xa62ece6cb111d07d!8m2!3d41.2512572!4d-82.1022494

[LoopySwing13]

Phil just needs to join the M family.. 20 yards longer and straighter than ever!

[LoopySwing13]

 

Now that's truly funny! :D

 

Thanks.

 

Enjoy your weekend, everyone.

 

I'm going to go pound the sh*t out of some balls tomorrow on a course where there's little to no reason to ever hit 3w over driver.

 

I guarantee I won't shoot 77 and then think a 3W would've saved me 4 shots.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Grey+Hawk+Golf+Club/@41.2510549,-82.1037032,690m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8830a38a1214e13d:0xa62ece6cb111d07d!8m2!3d41.2512572!4d-82.1022494

 

Would love to see phil's press conference.. Well I listened to a guy online named PSG and I just didn't get the results I hoped for. I decided to take driver out of my bag for the rest of my career. Now i will definitely hit more fairways.

[JeffreySpicoli]

 

Now that's truly funny! :D

 

Thanks.

 

Enjoy your weekend, everyone.

 

I'm going to go pound the sh*t out of some balls tomorrow on a course where there's little to no reason to ever hit 3w over driver.

 

I guarantee I won't shoot 77 and then think a 3W would've saved me 4 shots.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Grey+Hawk+Golf+Club/@41.2510549,-82.1037032,690m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8830a38a1214e13d:0xa62ece6cb111d07d!8m2!3d41.2512572!4d-82.1022494

 

Would love to see phil's press conference.. "Well I listened to a guy online named PSG and I just didn't get the results I hoped for. What a mistake. I decided to take driver out of my bag for the rest of my career. I've also decided to put tsecor on my bag and I've also made him my new swing coach. Now i will definitely hit more fairways."

 

Fixed it for you.

[Ri_Redneck]

Slightly OT but many say three wood is as long as driver. Do people really WANT their three wood to be almost as long as their driver?

Well, yesterday while playing a 672 yd into the wind I sure wished my 3w was LONGER than my driver. Ended up playing Dr (250), 3w (220), 7w (200). With no wind it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

 

BT