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3W vs Driver off the tee


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And when I say " straight " I mean in the fairway. When i say " miss " I mean ob. Ill have some movement on the shot one way or another. And I can move if both ways. And miss it both ways. Lol. I'll play from the rough all day and not care.

 

Are you misses high right and low left?

 

Yea. If I'm trying to hit a draw. But the low left is quite rare. In fact I can't think of one on course. Usually during range warm up. For a fade is always a wipe high right. Or the alwasy awesome dead straight ball that's blistered when you aim at the left tree line. Lol.

 

Wow my tee game is an 80% scale, lefty facsimile of yours. My most common shot is the 210-yard block about 40 yards left of where I'm aiming. The only time that is NOT my most common shot is when I aim into trouble down the right, when I can magically hit straight bullets.

 

Lately I've been just trying to basically pull everything with the driver. Seems to be working. I can aim middle and hit either straight or pulled shots into the right half. Only about once a round (usually late in the round) with the big block. That one is usually a disaster but it beats having that two-way miss with disasters on every other hole!

 

The reason I said upthread the tee-shot problem was 99% mental was in my own experience I can "fix"the driver problem by hitting 5w off the tee. That works great once, twice, maybe three times a round. But by about the fourth hole in a row with 5w it's amazing. I'll revert to that same disaster block shot that I hit with the driver.

 

 

yep... it is mostly a mental thing.... but i do believe there is a driver fitting element as well... Im not talking go to golfsmith "fitting" either... I mean that i have hunted , pecked and fit myself into 13 clubs that i love and trust over a 3 year period..... the 14th has eluded me so far.

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Most days, I wonder why I even have a 3 wood. When I need to bomb it, I hit my driver, when I need to hit a conservative shot, I go easy on my driver, and if I NEED it in the fairway, I hit my 20 degr

And when I say " straight " I mean in the fairway. When i say " miss " I mean ob. Ill have some movement on the shot one way or another. And I can move if both ways. And miss it both ways. Lol. I'll play from the rough all day and not care.

 

Are you misses high right and low left?

 

Yea. If I'm trying to hit a draw. But the low left is quite rare. In fact I can't think of one on course. Usually during range warm up. For a fade is always a wipe high right. Or the alwasy awesome dead straight ball that's blistered when you aim at the left tree line. Lol.

 

Wow my tee game is an 80% scale, lefty facsimile of yours. My most common shot is the 210-yard block about 40 yards left of where I'm aiming. The only time that is NOT my most common shot is when I aim into trouble down the right, when I can magically hit straight bullets.

 

Lately I've been just trying to basically pull everything with the driver. Seems to be working. I can aim middle and hit either straight or pulled shots into the right half. Only about once a round (usually late in the round) with the big block. That one is usually a disaster but it beats having that two-way miss with disasters on every other hole!

 

The reason I said upthread the tee-shot problem was 99% mental was in my own experience I can "fix"the driver problem by hitting 5w off the tee. That works great once, twice, maybe three times a round. But by about the fourth hole in a row with 5w it's amazing. I'll revert to that same disaster block shot that I hit with the driver.

 

 

yep... it is mostly a mental thing.... but i do believe there is a driver fitting element as well... Im not talking go to golfsmith "fitting" either... I mean that i have hunted , pecked and fit myself into 13 clubs that i love and trust over a 3 year period..... the 14th has eluded me so far.

 

I have had exactly the same issue with driver as both of you. Huge high blocks and block slices, a pull or hook is vary rare. Everything from off or near the deck was fine.

 

I look at it more as a single technical problem rather than a two way miss. Yes it goes both ways, but it the club face that decides that.

 

For me, it was the way I set up to the ball that caused the problem. As I took my stance my right foot was dropping back which was exaggerated with the extra width of stance. The club face was pointing at target but my feet were aiming right of that. The most common one was the ball starting on line and slicing or I would get stuck and just shove it out. My confidence with driver is still very fragile but it is slowly coming back.

 

Alignment is such a basic thing, but it killed me. A lot of people go wrong because they have their feet aiming at the target rather than parallel to the left or right depending being a leftie or righty.

 

That was what did for me.

 

I expect I am teaching granny to suck eggs here as you both seem I know you both know your stuff. But I feel your pain. I get away with it hitting down on it but not with a high tee peg.

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I'm honestly not saying this to be a jackass, I am legitimately curious - if it will be high and right 100% of the time, why not just aim left and whale it? Its nearly impossible to hit a golf ball perfectly straight and 280 yards. My driver moves right to left - sometimes viciously so, sometimes gently so, but its almost never straight. I aim up the right edge and rip it. My irons move the other way, so i do it differently. But if you have a miss (like i did) that is really predictable... why not just play it as your ball-flight instead of dropping 4-5 strokes trying to hit it straight? 100% of the time is a strong statement. If that's true, capitalize on it IMO.

 

What up, PSG? Just was reading a good article about optimal betting strategies (identifying trends) and found this cool anecdote that seems applicable here. You can't guess when your misses are going to come. You have to play to the miss every single time to employ an optimal strategy. You aiming down the right side is like the rat who picks the left light :D

 

"In Bor’s book, he discusses a light detection experiment in which participants are asked to predict whether the left or right light will flash. The left light flashes 80% of the time at random, while the right light flashes the other times. The optimal strategy requires picking the left light each time, which leads to an 80% prediction accuracy. Rats figure this out.

 

However, humans do not follow this optimal strategy. We guess at the randomness, picking the left 80% of the time. This suboptimal strategy reduces the accuracy by 12%."

 

https://thepowerrank...ll-sample-size/

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I'm honestly not saying this to be a jackass, I am legitimately curious - if it will be high and right 100% of the time, why not just aim left and whale it? Its nearly impossible to hit a golf ball perfectly straight and 280 yards. My driver moves right to left - sometimes viciously so, sometimes gently so, but its almost never straight. I aim up the right edge and rip it. My irons move the other way, so i do it differently. But if you have a miss (like i did) that is really predictable... why not just play it as your ball-flight instead of dropping 4-5 strokes trying to hit it straight? 100% of the time is a strong statement. If that's true, capitalize on it IMO.

 

What up, PSG? Just was reading a good article about optimal betting strategies (identifying trends) and found this cool anecdote that seems applicable here. You can't guess when your misses are going to come. You have to play to the miss every single time to employ an optimal strategy. You aiming down the right side is like the rat who picks the left light :D

 

"In Bor’s book, he discusses a light detection experiment in which participants are asked to predict whether the left or right light will flash. The left light flashes 80% of the time at random, while the right light flashes the other times. The optimal strategy requires picking the left light each time, which leads to an 80% prediction accuracy. Rats figure this out.

 

However, humans do not follow this optimal strategy. We guess at the randomness, picking the left 80% of the time. This suboptimal strategy reduces the accuracy by 12%."

 

https://thepowerrank...ll-sample-size/

 

Great post. If you are going to miss right more often then left you should always play a right miss not try to guess which is coming.

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I'm honestly not saying this to be a jackass, I am legitimately curious - if it will be high and right 100% of the time, why not just aim left and whale it? Its nearly impossible to hit a golf ball perfectly straight and 280 yards. My driver moves right to left - sometimes viciously so, sometimes gently so, but its almost never straight. I aim up the right edge and rip it. My irons move the other way, so i do it differently. But if you have a miss (like i did) that is really predictable... why not just play it as your ball-flight instead of dropping 4-5 strokes trying to hit it straight? 100% of the time is a strong statement. If that's true, capitalize on it IMO.

 

What up, PSG? Just was reading a good article about optimal betting strategies (identifying trends) and found this cool anecdote that seems applicable here. You can't guess when your misses are going to come. You have to play to the miss every single time to employ an optimal strategy. You aiming down the right side is like the rat who picks the left light :D

 

"In Bor’s book, he discusses a light detection experiment in which participants are asked to predict whether the left or right light will flash. The left light flashes 80% of the time at random, while the right light flashes the other times. The optimal strategy requires picking the left light each time, which leads to an 80% prediction accuracy. Rats figure this out.

 

However, humans do not follow this optimal strategy. We guess at the randomness, picking the left 80% of the time. This suboptimal strategy reduces the accuracy by 12%."

 

https://thepowerrank...ll-sample-size/

 

Great post. If you are going to miss right more often then left you should always play a right miss not try to guess which is coming.

 

OK but here's the part will cook your noodle...

 

That's only true if the misses are random, like that experiment with the lights. How about if aiming more to the left CAUSES the right miss to happen more often?

 

Mind officially blown!

 

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I'm honestly not saying this to be a jackass, I am legitimately curious - if it will be high and right 100% of the time, why not just aim left and whale it? Its nearly impossible to hit a golf ball perfectly straight and 280 yards. My driver moves right to left - sometimes viciously so, sometimes gently so, but its almost never straight. I aim up the right edge and rip it. My irons move the other way, so i do it differently. But if you have a miss (like i did) that is really predictable... why not just play it as your ball-flight instead of dropping 4-5 strokes trying to hit it straight? 100% of the time is a strong statement. If that's true, capitalize on it IMO.

 

What up, PSG? Just was reading a good article about optimal betting strategies (identifying trends) and found this cool anecdote that seems applicable here. You can't guess when your misses are going to come. You have to play to the miss every single time to employ an optimal strategy. You aiming down the right side is like the rat who picks the left light :D

 

"In Bor’s book, he discusses a light detection experiment in which participants are asked to predict whether the left or right light will flash. The left light flashes 80% of the time at random, while the right light flashes the other times. The optimal strategy requires picking the left light each time, which leads to an 80% prediction accuracy. Rats figure this out.

 

However, humans do not follow this optimal strategy. We guess at the randomness, picking the left 80% of the time. This suboptimal strategy reduces the accuracy by 12%."

 

https://thepowerrank...ll-sample-size/

 

Great post. If you are going to miss right more often then left you should always play a right miss not try to guess which is coming.

 

OK but here's the part will cook your noodle...

 

That's only true if the misses are random, like that experiment with the lights. How about if aiming more to the left CAUSES the right miss to happen more often?

 

Mind officially blown!

 

You're at 4999 "likes." I want to give you your 5000th, even though you've poked a hole in my post.

 

EDIT: In all seriousness, you'd probably have to track some serious data to find your own tendencies. I'm sure certain visualizations tend to affect players' aiming, coupled with the "safety" net to the right may affect how well someone "finishes" the swing.

 

For me, sometimes when I have open space right, I aim up the left and try to play a cut. That shot is much more likely to result in a wipe right than when I am facing trouble right but still trying to cut the ball. Mental weakness?

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I'm honestly not saying this to be a jackass, I am legitimately curious - if it will be high and right 100% of the time, why not just aim left and whale it? Its nearly impossible to hit a golf ball perfectly straight and 280 yards. My driver moves right to left - sometimes viciously so, sometimes gently so, but its almost never straight. I aim up the right edge and rip it. My irons move the other way, so i do it differently. But if you have a miss (like i did) that is really predictable... why not just play it as your ball-flight instead of dropping 4-5 strokes trying to hit it straight? 100% of the time is a strong statement. If that's true, capitalize on it IMO.

 

What up, PSG? Just was reading a good article about optimal betting strategies (identifying trends) and found this cool anecdote that seems applicable here. You can't guess when your misses are going to come. You have to play to the miss every single time to employ an optimal strategy. You aiming down the right side is like the rat who picks the left light :D

 

"In Bor’s book, he discusses a light detection experiment in which participants are asked to predict whether the left or right light will flash. The left light flashes 80% of the time at random, while the right light flashes the other times. The optimal strategy requires picking the left light each time, which leads to an 80% prediction accuracy. Rats figure this out.

 

However, humans do not follow this optimal strategy. We guess at the randomness, picking the left 80% of the time. This suboptimal strategy reduces the accuracy by 12%."

 

https://thepowerrank...ll-sample-size/

 

Great post. If you are going to miss right more often then left you should always play a right miss not try to guess which is coming.

 

OK but here's the part will cook your noodle...

 

That's only true if the misses are random, like that experiment with the lights. How about if aiming more to the left CAUSES the right miss to happen more often?

 

Mind officially blown!

 

You're at 4999 "likes." I want to give you your 5000th, even though you've poked a hole in my post.

 

It's OK. As with Tiger's 15th major, that 5000th like will either happen or it won't!

 

The way I figured out the "what if it CAUSES" part was that's what happened to me. I sought out advice from a much better player and he said basically just aim down the rough line and play for the 40-yard block.[

 

That was good and well-intended advice and it worked for a couple rounds. Then the 40-yard block started becoming 50 or 60 (yes, I'm not kidding, on one Par 5 I lasered one particularly egregious shot as finishing 73 yards off-line from where I was aiming).

 

Truly, the farther right I aimed (as a lefty) the farther I blocked it back to the left.

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AFter my lunch time bucket of balls ( Driver 3 wood 3 irons ) I’m just about done. Full control of 3 iron. 3 wood is bullet fade all day to the back of my home range. And Driver. What a poj. Lol. 2 decently straight but Word not allowed spinning balls , then followed by 35 high rights and low duck hooks trying to release it enough.

 

 

Broken niblick here I come. Hope he has some 12 degree m2 3 wood heads left. I’m going to build a sledge hammer 2 wood and put this driver in the closet.

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AFter my lunch time bucket of balls ( Driver 3 wood 3 irons ) I’m just about done. Full control of 3 iron. 3 wood is bullet fade all day to the back of my home range. And Driver. What a poj. Lol. 2 decently straight but Word not allowed spinning balls , then followed by 35 high rights and low duck hooks trying to release it enough.

 

 

Broken niblick here I come. Hope he has some 12 degree m2 3 wood heads left. I’m going to build a sledge hammer 2 wood and put this driver in the closet.

 

Sounds like every practice session I had last year.

 

The 2 wood sounds like a good idea.

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AFter my lunch time bucket of balls ( Driver 3 wood 3 irons ) I’m just about done. Full control of 3 iron. 3 wood is bullet fade all day to the back of my home range. And Driver. What a poj. Lol. 2 decently straight but Word not allowed spinning balls , then followed by 35 high rights and low duck hooks trying to release it enough.

 

 

Broken niblick here I come. Hope he has some 12 degree m2 3 wood heads left. I’m going to build a sledge hammer 2 wood and put this driver in the closet.

 

Sounds like every practice session I had last year.

 

The 2 wood sounds like a good idea.

 

How about practicing with a blade 1 iron? Your driver will feel like a wedge after a month.

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AFter my lunch time bucket of balls ( Driver 3 wood 3 irons ) I’m just about done. Full control of 3 iron. 3 wood is bullet fade all day to the back of my home range. And Driver. What a poj. Lol. 2 decently straight but Word not allowed spinning balls , then followed by 35 high rights and low duck hooks trying to release it enough.

 

 

Broken niblick here I come. Hope he has some 12 degree m2 3 wood heads left. I’m going to build a sledge hammer 2 wood and put this driver in the closet.

 

Sounds like every practice session I had last year.

 

The 2 wood sounds like a good idea.

 

How about practicing with a blade 1 iron? Your driver will feel like a wedge after a month.

 

 

 

lol.... see my signature..... i alternate a custom grind titleist 1 or 2 in place of the 5 wood if its crispy out...

 

 

more driver work tomorow folks... im not a quitter..but i am frustrated..

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ping glide 3.0 54 60 Fuji pro TS 115s 
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Obviously I don’t mean the face is literally square to the ball-target line for two feet. You’d have to be twelve feet tall to hit a ball like that. I mean it’s square to the shaft angle - square as it rotates around you. Longer shaft = harder to compensate for a swing that squares late.

 

So, just to be clear ... you believe Pros keep the club face square to the "shaft angle" for a foot before and a foot after impact? "Square as it rotates around you" - or just for those two feet? What do these Pros do with the club face for the rest of the swing?

 

Imo, it's not harder to square up a Driver because it's longer ... the results of the club path and club face not being square are just amplified because of the straighter face and increased club head speed. Hit your 7-iron with the same club face / path error as your driver and you won't get sent to hell.

 

This is one reason (not the only reason) why some people prefer more loft / a shorter shaft for the club they use to hit the ball the farthest ... and why threads like this one exist on WRX :-)

 

Anyway, I'm off to try out this Taylormade Aero Mini 14 TP in X-flex ... let's see how it goes on it's honeymoon run !!

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AFter my lunch time bucket of balls ( Driver 3 wood 3 irons ) I’m just about done. Full control of 3 iron. 3 wood is bullet fade all day to the back of my home range. And Driver. What a poj. Lol. 2 decently straight but Word not allowed spinning balls , then followed by 35 high rights and low duck hooks trying to release it enough.

 

 

Broken niblick here I come. Hope he has some 12 degree m2 3 wood heads left. I’m going to build a sledge hammer 2 wood and put this driver in the closet.

 

Sounds like every practice session I had last year.

 

The 2 wood sounds like a good idea.

 

How about practicing with a blade 1 iron? Your driver will feel like a wedge after a month.

 

 

 

lol.... see my signature..... i alternate a custom grind titleist 1 or 2 in place of the 5 wood if its crispy out...

 

 

more driver work tomorow folks... im not a quitter..but i am frustrated..

 

Good for you. It is frustrating to hit a long club. But, while folks obsess over "looks" and "mental" issues, the serious student knows it's a swing fault...not the club, not the look of the club.

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Obviously I don’t mean the face is literally square to the ball-target line for two feet. You’d have to be twelve feet tall to hit a ball like that. I mean it’s square to the shaft angle - square as it rotates around you. Longer shaft = harder to compensate for a swing that squares late.

 

So, just to be clear ... you believe Pros keep the club face square to the "shaft angle" for a foot before and a foot after impact? "Square as it rotates around you" - or just for those two feet? What do these Pros do with the club face for the rest of the swing?

 

Imo, it's not harder to square up a Driver because it's longer ... the results of the club path and club face not being square are just amplified because of the straighter face and increased club head speed. Hit your 7-iron with the same club face / path error as your driver and you won't get sent to hell.

 

This is one reason (not the only reason) why some people prefer more loft / a shorter shaft for the club they use to hit the ball the farthest ... and why threads like this one exist on WRX :-)

 

Anyway, I'm off to try out this Taylormade Aero Mini 14 TP in X-flex ... let's see how it goes on it's honeymoon run !!

 

Square for 4 feet...LOL! It's square for like 8 inches max...where it matters...at impact. So many bad tips on here. The weight of the club will go straight for a short duration as you clear the left side...it's physics.

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Obviously I don’t mean the face is literally square to the ball-target line for two feet. You’d have to be twelve feet tall to hit a ball like that. I mean it’s square to the shaft angle - square as it rotates around you. Longer shaft = harder to compensate for a swing that squares late.

 

So, just to be clear ... you believe Pros keep the club face square to the "shaft angle" for a foot before and a foot after impact? "Square as it rotates around you" - or just for those two feet? What do these Pros do with the club face for the rest of the swing?

 

Yes, they keep the face square to the shaft angle that they established at address. Some are more upright, some are more flat, some close at address, some open. But the ratio remains the same about 15 inches on either side of the ball - there is no manipulation - as the shaft angle changes, the face changes with it. Some are smooth and some are violent, but the shaft angle and the face move as one for a long time before and after impact.

 

Hit your 7-iron with the same club face / path error as your driver and you won't get sent to hell

 

Of course not, but only because of geometry. If I hit the ball 100 yards with my clubface 10% open, I miss by 10 yards. If I hit the ball 300 yards with my clubface 10% open, I miss by 30 yards. The 7 iron is only "not in hell" because it goes shorter. All golf shots miss in percent. A 2% driver miss looks much worse than a 2% putter miss, but its the same miss. Its just the 10 foot putt goes to .2 inches and the driver goes to the first cut. But they are both just as bad (10% miss). Shorter clubs fool you because golf misses are measured in percent because you miss in degrees.

 

That's what I've been saying. People who miss driver see it because driver goes so much farther, but they are probably missing their sand wedge by exactly the same amount. You just can't miss a 90 yard shot by enough for it to hurt you too bad. But if they actually measured it, almost all would find they have a 7% open club face swing flaw not that they "can't hit driver".

 

Square for 4 feet...LOL! It's square for like 8 inches max...where it matters...at impact. So many bad tips on here. The weight of the club will go straight for a short duration as you clear the left side...it's physics.

 

People like you are the worst. Someone right above you made this exact comment, except he was respectful. You obviously didn't bother to read the thread, but just jumped right to the bottom to be a complete jerk and you are obviously not interested in discussing or learning anything.

 

Square doesn't mean "pointing at". It means square to the club path, just like shaft angle i.e. club path "square" means to the face. You can be "square" at any point in the swing. For example, assuming a clubface addressing the ball directly down the targetline with a completely neutral shaft angle, the clubface is "square" when the shaft is horizontal when its parallel to the ball-target line. "Square" doesn't mean "pointing at", it means that you have maintained the shaft angle and face you established at address as you've turned back and then down the inclined plane. Its hogan's glass pane. Anywhere on it is "square". If you get off it, youre not square. Since the swing is an arc, the definition of "square" must be in relation to the other moving pieces, not the target - the target is stationary, and the swing is curved. So we have to measure "square" using the angle of the shaft as that is the only reference to the target line that remains constant during our arc'd backswing.

 

Square *obviously* doesn't mean "literally pointing at". That would be ridiculous.

 

edit - you've heard people say pros are "open" or "shut" at the top of their backswing. they don't mean where the face is literally pointing. they mean in relation to the arc'd plane. dustin is a great example. his clubface is dead shut at the top of his backswing in relation to his shaft plane, but by the time he gets to about his knees on the downswing he's square. rahm is the opposite - open at the top, and square by about his knees. some of the guys do some funky swings, but virtually all of them are back square by the time the shaft reaches their waist. Youtube some and see how different they are at the top and how similar they are at about shaft horizontal on the downswing.

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Face palm of the longest duration .... ?‍♂️

 

 

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Yes, they keep the face square to the shaft angle that they established at address. Some are more upright, some are more flat, some close at address, some open. But the ratio remains the same about 15 inches on either side of the ball - there is no manipulation - as the shaft angle changes, the face changes with it. Some are smooth and some are violent, but the shaft angle and the face move as one for a long time before and after impact.

Neutral is a better term than square... and it's not as consistent as you are describing. No-one gets back to the address position at impact. More to the point, no one is trying to do that. It's a myth. Look at the images I posted earlier of the best ball strikers in history at address and impact.

 

Of course not, but only because of geometry. If I hit the ball 100 yards with my clubface 10% open, I miss by 10 yards. If I hit the ball 300 yards with my clubface 10% open, I miss by 30 yards. The 7 iron is only "not in hell" because it goes shorter. All golf shots miss in percent. A 2% driver miss looks much worse than a 2% putter miss, but its the same miss. Its just the 10 foot putt goes to .2 inches and the driver goes to the first cut. But they are both just as bad (10% miss). Shorter clubs fool you because golf misses are measured in percent because you miss in degrees.

 

That's what I've been saying. People who miss driver see it because driver goes so much farther, but they are probably missing their sand wedge by exactly the same amount. You just can't miss a 90 yard shot by enough for it to hurt you too bad. But if they actually measured it, almost all would find they have a 7% open club face swing flaw not that they "can't hit driver".

Not true, because of spin.

 

The Driver will accentuate mistakes compared with the sand wedge. It is much harder to tilt the axis of spin on the ball with a Sand Wedge than a Driver. Try hooking your Lob wedge with your normal grip. The shorter club makes it harder because of the swing path and angle of attack. Less club head speed makes it harder. More loft makes it harder. The ball always starts pretty much where the club face is pointing then these other influences take over.

 

The same applies to a 3wood vs a Driver discussion.

 

BTW - the 14 degree TP Aeroburner Mini was a fairway finder on the course last night, the X-flex heavy shaft and high launch just made it so hard to hit hard left. Time to see how it plays under some competition conditions :-)

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Neutral is a better term than square... and it's not as consistent as you are describing. No-one gets back to the address position at impact. More to the point, no one is trying to do that. It's a myth. Look at the images I posted earlier of the best ball strikers in history at address and impact.

 

I didn't say people get back to the address position at impact. I said virtually all professionals are on-plane by at least about foot to either side of the ball. This may or may not relate to their address position.

 

I've always heard "open", "square" and "closed". I've never heard "neutral" to describe a clubface at the top, but who knows, could be that is the term that should be used.

 

You can hit a driver the same way you hit an iron and be an outstanding player. You can hit a driver differently than you hit an iron and be an outstanding player. The driver swing and the iron swing - like everything in golf - is up to the individual player. Plenty have done well with identical swings and varied ball position (Adam Scott) and plenty have done well with two separate motions. My original response was aimed at the gentleman who said they are two different swings. They are not. They can be, but they don't have to be.

 

Not true, because of spin.

 

The Driver will accentuate mistakes compared with the sand wedge. It is much harder to tilt the axis of spin on the ball with a Sand Wedge than a Driver. Try hooking your Lob wedge with your normal grip. The shorter club makes it harder because of the swing path and angle of attack. Less club head speed makes it harder. More loft makes it harder. The ball always starts pretty much where the club face is pointing then these other influences take over.

 

The same applies to a 3wood vs a Driver discussion.

 

BTW - the 14 degree TP Aeroburner Mini was a fairway finder on the course last night, the X-flex heavy shaft and high launch just made it so hard to hit hard left. Time to see how it plays under some competition conditions :-)

 

The driver will accentuate mistakes, but its still the same mistake. That's my point, which you apparently agree with. Obviously the driver will accentuate the miss over a wedge, but *its the same exact flaw* from the perspective of the golfer and his swing. The driver just has a much worse result because its a driver. But its the exact same mistake. Your still, say, from the inside 8* and 3* open. *Thats* your swing flaw, not "I can't hit a driver". Its irrelevant in analysis of your mechanics that the driver is worse when you hit it 8* inside 3* open.

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10% open face does not translate to a 10 yard miss on a 100 yard shot but I do know where you are going with his lol.

 

You would have to apply the law of cosine and also facto spin rate.

 

Would your miss be wider or inside of 10 yards?

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10% open face does not translate to a 10 yard miss on a 100 yard shot but I do know where you are going with his lol.

 

You would have to apply the law of cosine and also facto spin rate.

 

Would your miss be wider or inside of 10 yards?

 

Yeah, i was just making a point. Heck, it could be no miss at all - the exact right amount of draw spin could make 10* open curve right back to the target line.

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It would equate to about a 17 yard miss, short and wide.

 

10% open face does not translate to a 10 yard miss on a 100 yard shot but I do know where you are going with his lol.

 

You would have to apply the law of cosine and also facto spin rate.

 

Would your miss be wider or inside of 10 yards?

 

Yeah, i was just making a point. Heck, it could be no miss at all - the exact right amount of draw spin could make 10* open curve right back to the target line.

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I didn't say people get back to the address position at impact. I said virtually all professionals are on-plane by at least about foot to either side of the ball. This may or may not relate to their address position.

 

I've always heard "open", "square" and "closed". I've never heard "neutral" to describe a clubface at the top, but who knows, could be that is the term that should be used.

 

Neutral makes more sense because it doesn't assume that you start square OR that you are aiming to finish square :-)

 

You can hit a driver the same way you hit an iron and be an outstanding player. You can hit a driver differently than you hit an iron and be an outstanding player. The driver swing and the iron swing - like everything in golf - is up to the individual player. Plenty have done well with identical swings and varied ball position (Adam Scott) and plenty have done well with two separate motions. My original response was aimed at the gentleman who said they are two different swings. They are not. They can be, but they don't have to be.

We are talking about semantics here. A driver swing is not the same as a wedge swing, for anyone. The driver requires different posture, different weight shift, different angle of attack - simply because of the difference in the equipment. Maybe we have different ideas on what constitutes "the same"? It's definitely the same human holding the club!

 

The driver will accentuate mistakes, but its still the same mistake. That's my point, which you apparently agree with. Obviously the driver will accentuate the miss over a wedge, but *its the same exact flaw* from the perspective of the golfer and his swing. The driver just has a much worse result because its a driver. But its the exact same mistake. Your still, say, from the inside 8* and 3* open. *Thats* your swing flaw, not "I can't hit a driver". Its irrelevant in analysis of your mechanics that the driver is worse when you hit it 8* inside 3* open.

I agree in theory ... but the reality is that most golfers are as inconsistent with their swing flaws as they are with everything else ... it's never that repeatable :-) I also think that a lot of flaws that exist with the driver are more psychological than mechanical. The final ingredient to the pot is the unrealistic expectations by people on what they think they should be achieving off the tee in terms of both accuracy and distance. It's why I jumped up when you used Scott and Garcia as examples - they may as well be aliens to us amateur golfers.

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When you say they are the same swing ... what do you mean?

 

The starting and finishing positions of the body are different. Your body is a different posture during the swing. The swing planes are different. The angle of attack is different. The ball position is different. What is the same? The grip?

 

A 3-wood off the fairway swing is a different swing to Driver off the tee swing. A Driver off the tee swing is very different to a 7-iron from the fairway swing. A flop shot is different to a chip-and-run.

 

Maybe you are talking about something entirely different and I am missing it?

 

The swing is an arc - it has different angles of attack all the way around your body. Theoretically, if you put the ball on a three foot tall tee next to your waist and way in front of you, you could hit the ball with a +40 degree angle of attack with the "same swing". The secret to good golf is controlling and having a consistent low point of the swing - that it "bottoms out" in the same place every time. The swing will always bottom out (like any other lever) at 90* to its axis, which in the golf swing is the line formed by your chin, sternum and belly button. Any lever will always bottom out at 90* to its axis. So if that line is behind the ball, you'll hit it fat. If that line is in front of the ball, you'll get a nice, crisp iron strike - you hit just slightly down because of where the ball is positioned - the ball is just behind the axis. If that axis line is positioned behind the ball but you allow the club to bottom out and then start back up before the strike - due to ball position - then you will have an upward AoA (its after the lowest point and starting back up) with the same swing as an iron.

 

The most efficient* way to control AoA is by ball position. If you do it that way, you do not have to change anything, your impact changes because the ball is being struck on an arc beginning around your rear heel and ending about your left big toe. Placing a ball anywhere there (on a tee or not) will produce anything from a severe downward blow (heel) to a driver upswing (high AoA). Those with lower clubhead speed should be much more extreme in their ball position because they can hit significantly down or up based on where the ball is in their stance, not changing up their mechanics. The other problem with this is it requires pretty high vigilance for your set up during the round, which isn't the most fun thing in the world, but a whole lot of professionals make ball position a huge part of their pre-shot routine.

 

There are two significant issues that stop most players from being able to do this - plane and spine angle. Pros maintain their spine angle all the way through the swing because they don't have to manufacture angle of attack, either because they are so fast they can hit it really far hitting down (Sergio, Rahm) or they have such good mechanics that they can "hit up" just by sliding the ball forward and letting the driver just bottom out before impact (Scott). Most really good ams, when they swing an iron, properly clear their left side low and their right side comes through the ball high - they don't do the left-up/right-down scoop move with the irons. But then with the driver, they scoop without realizing it trying to get a positive AoA. Second, a lot of good but not great players don't keep their clubface on the target line very long. Professionals keep their irons on the target line for about two and a half feet - they are so on plane, that they keep the clubface facing square a foot before and after impact. So if we think about the geometry of it, if you push the tee forward in order to catch it after the bottom and make the same swing, your face is going to be wonky at impact unless you are able to square the face early and keep it square until it exits left. That is very difficult to do. Most ams have a compensation somewhere where they square the face for a very short window just before and after impact. In that case, the same swing doesn't work, because the face is no longer square when it reaches the further forward, tee'd up ball.

 

There are professionals, even, who have "two swings", but most don't, and it is certainly not impossible. It is, however, difficult.

 

*efficient is not a synonym for only. There are plenty of people who make it work. Its just less efficient IMO, and its absolutely possible.

 

EDIT -

Let's say you have a pretty classic good player bad iron swing where you loop inside going back and outside going down, hitting virtually all cuts and fades. You go way off plane inside on the backswing and then compensate by looping it down outside, squaring the face for just an instant before the face shuts down completely and exists sharply up and closed. It is hopeless for you to hit a driver with that swing. If you move the tee forward to catch it on the upswing, you'll hit snap hooks and massive pushes for days. But its not because its an "iron swing" its because its a really off plane iron swing that you've grooved over years of practice to be able to get away with.

 

Probably a better way to say it is you can't hit driver with a bad iron swing that you've made work by practicing timing over years and years.

 

 

 

i wonder if the disconnect here is from a hitter vs a swinger standpoint? I am and always will be a hitter of the ball.... not a swinger of the club.... the driver swing most surely is different to me ..... My posture, spine angle, hands etc all start in a different place.... all with the idea of hitting up on the ball.... with all other clubs i think "cover the ball " with my right shoulder which means a down ward aoa... i also do not end an iron swing with my right arm rolling over my left hard to release the face... im very upright and hold the face square to path for quite a while after the strike for a draw or a fade.... nice even long but shallow divots..... same swing with a driver will be high right 100% of the time...why ? it takes a split second longer and a good bit more arm roll ( release) to gett the face square.... and then there is aoa.. you have to get more separation going back ( width) and keep that width through the downswing to get the positive aoa you need with driver... thats entirely opposite of any great iron swing... most great iron players ( tiger phil sergio) have huge amounts of lag and get quite narrow on the downswing with an iron.. and have the same late release i posses..

 

 

 

the whole point isnt that i couldnt tee a driver low and hit it straight.. i can.. BUT it will go less than my 3 wood if i do... which is pointless... I have days where i can master both swings.. and i have days where driver swing feels so foreign wonder why i bother.... to qualify this im a guy that practices every day that it isnt snowing or below freezing..and some calm days if it is...i hit more balls than mist college players much less a normal am.. I know what hitting both exceptionally well feels like... and it is not the same move...

 

Well stated...but just buy a new driver or irons and all is solved! LOL!

 

The driver swing should not be over-thought to the point of exhaustion. I teach people to look at the bottom of the arc of the swing...which unless one sways left, should be below the left eye...more or less. As such, given drivers need an upward AOA, place the body in a position so that the bottom of the swing is a little behind the ball. Then spray foot powder on the driver face to check impact and adjust accordingly.

 

Also, the pro's rotate the handle of the club to in front of their left thigh at impact....right wrist is still bent backward at impact....then release at 45 degrees. Watch pro tennis...same idea...handle is slightly ahead of the ball at impact...then wrist release.

 

Too many players leave their arms behind on the downswing on all shots...and the body knows it...so then the body slows down to wait for the arms...and presto-chango...early extension...or a standup comedy routine to make room for the arms.

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To get back to the guts of this discussion ...

 

I tried out the TM Aeroburner TP Mini 14 with an Aldila Rogue Max 75 X @ 43" on the weekend and was pleasantly surprised by it in almost every way.

 

I did try and hit a low drive with it late in the round that took the heads off a few worms, but that just needs some practice. The rest of the drives were more predictable and really good distance.

 

When I re-gripped the club I noticed that the shaft had been shortened, and when I checked online it said stock was 43.5". (mine is 0.5" less than that) - but with the heavy x-flex shaft it felt fine.

 

Played it as a 2-wood further back in the stance at address and gave a good attacking hit. Nice trajectory, felt controllable.

 

The 19 degree Callaway Hybrid I play is strong as all buggery, more like a 4 wood than a 3-iron replacement ... so it fits in well with this "driver".

 

Looking forward to seeing how it plays out over the longer term, but a pleasant beginning :-)

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I will play a 3W if the hole calls for it specifically but my least favorite club in the bag. More than any other it can go from perfect, to horrible and maybe or maybe not back to perfect again in one round? The driver is my go to when thing are good or bad. Obviously not always perfect but the setup and swing just feel so natural to me. You get to take an athletic wide stance, you get to stand up tall, and it is so easy to make that big turn with the shoulders. Many of my drives go well and often if I am lost my one major driver swing thought will put everything else in order. As I bring that club back, it is easy to see where the butt of the club is pointing and it better be pointing on the target line. If my hands are getting too far behind me too quick, the butt is pointing right of my target. If I am picking it up to the outside, the butt is pointing left of my target. I just always feel confident with the big dog in my hand I can account for there the shaft is on a long and hard swing?

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so what say you guys on Tigers driver OB yesterday? Isnt it time he went Full Stenson and stopped fighting driver ? Not that he would have beaten rory in the end.. But just that Driver seems to cost more than it gains....

 

this is being discussed i the Tour talk section... i just wondered what Pine street and others thought here

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so what say you guys on Tigers driver OB yesterday? Isnt it time he went Full Stenson and stopped fighting driver ? Not that he would have beaten rory in the end.. But just that Driver seems to cost more than it gains....

 

this is being discussed i the Tour talk section... i just wondered what Pine street and others thought here

 

You don't have to guess if it "seems to cost more than it gains". He has a positive strokes gained driving. He is gaining strokes on the field with that club.

 

The problem is the same as the post you made about it "always seems" like its driver who make you drop from -4/5 to even. What it "seems like" in golf is almost never what it is, and the advantage of driver is incremental. So, yeah, he drops 2 strokes on that driver, but he also probably gained .2 strokes on one hole earlier, .3 on another, .4 on another, .1 on another being longer than 3 wood - and with four days of golf, those partial advantages will almost always beat one or two bad swings. It just happened at the wrong time - if he hits it OB on Thursday and not Sunday, you're not saying he should go to 3 wood, your saying he had a nice finish. The timing of the shots is irrelevant in evaluating the club, only the group of the shots is relevant.

 

For example, everyone talks about the putt that tied Rocco in the US Open. But he striped his drive right to the perfect spot on that hole - first cut, perfect view of the pin, direct line into the upslope. It gets no credit in the memory, even though it was probably worth at least half of his biridie chance (-.5). It would have been next to impossible to get that close from anywhere else with that slope. That tee shot was genius. But nobody remembers it, they just remember the putter. Why is that?

 

Driver gets zero credit when it takes you lower and all the blame when it takes you higher. If Tiger "goes Stenson" he isn't even in position for you to care about his OB driver.

 

You're also assuming he would hit 3 wood significantly better, which isn't necessarily true.

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