3W vs Driver off the tee

[rawdog]

Pine street

 

 

True stats. I just broke a 28 round streak with double Bogey or worse. And most from OB drives. And with all that I've kept a 1. Something handicap still. Now it is a tight old growth course. But still I'm not hitting that many drivers.

 

I practice it plenty. And can go on runs where I pound it. But never fails to block one a mile offline or if I survive the block you can bet the next one goes 30 yards left. By then I just want to break something.

 

It's like this. In my shop I own literally any toool and Machine for metal fab you can think of. Some wear out. Some COme In and are junk from day one. The ones that are crap I kick back out within a week. The ones that wear out we find replacements for quick . If you are in the shop and hear a loud sound. It could be me throwing whatever the malfunctioning tool is in the trash. I just don't have the patience to continue to use a tool that doesn't work. Yet for some reason I keep hitting Driver. Lol. When All 13 of my other tools work.

 

I know you kid, but you probably keep hitting the driver because deep down, unlike the tools, you're the problem here.

 

I mean that in a good way. It's easy to blame a tool but based on your posts, you seem like a guy who has pride. Deep down you probably want to get it right, and when you mess up, you can't just throw the tool away because it isn't the tool's fault.

 

I'm glad you're not giving up.

[Bye]

Shared this many a time before. Estimates from 2015 have Stenson leaving about .25 strokes per round on the table by not hitting a driver.

 

He wins despite this strategy, not because of it.

 

"So if Stenson is hitting a lot of fairway woods because he prioritizes hitting fairways, is he making the right play? In short, no. Using a fairway wood only increases his odds of hitting the fairway by 17%. Multiply that 17% by the 0.08 strokes better he performs on approach shots from the fairway and he gains only 0.01 strokes worth of value per hole from hitting more fairways off of lay-ups. Contrast that with the value he loses because he is hitting fairway wood shorter than driver. He loses 0.07 strokes for each fairway wood he hits, all because he is losing an average of 28 yards of distance when using the shorter club. He hits about four more fairway woods than the average bomber each round, meaning he is losing a quarter of a stroke just because of his club selection."

 

https://golfanalytic...-wood-too-much/

 

 

But this logic ASSUMES thy he willl hit more fairways for more distance with Driver right ?

 

If I'm understanding your question correctly, it is assuming he would continue to hit the same percentage of fairways with each club that he does now (at the time of analysis). If you click the link to read more, you'll see this chart.

 

He is only 0.4 degrees less accurate with his driver, but it goes so much further that he hits fewer fairways. Still, when he hits driver, he gains more on the field (0.08) than when he hits a 3 wood (0.01).

 

"It’s not as if he’s wild with the driver. In fact, Stenson hits driver well enough that he gains the 4th most strokes on the field when he uses driver (only McIlroy, Dustin Johnson, and Bubba rank ahead of him)."

 

But as you said he is only hitting his driver 4-5 times a round, probably when he feels confident to do so. Could his stats potentially be a lot worse if forces himself to use it when the shot doesn't suit his eye? Maybe he is getting the most out of his abilities?

 

There must be a reason for his course management.

 

I mean, I suppose.

 

But if I were the fourth best driver of the golf ball on the face of the earth, I'd try and figure out a way to make more shots "fit my eye."

 

Would be interesting to hear his explanation.

 

The guy seems to stick with what he thinks is best. I would love to know if he uses one of the old Pro v1 models or the most up to date one.

 

Agreed, it would be fascinating to hear.

[bladehunter]

Pine street

 

 

True stats. I just broke a 28 round streak with double Bogey or worse. And most from OB drives. And with all that I've kept a 1. Something handicap still. Now it is a tight old growth course. But still I'm not hitting that many drivers.

 

I practice it plenty. And can go on runs where I pound it. But never fails to block one a mile offline or if I survive the block you can bet the next one goes 30 yards left. By then I just want to break something.

 

It's like this. In my shop I own literally any toool and Machine for metal fab you can think of. Some wear out. Some COme In and are junk from day one. The ones that are crap I kick back out within a week. The ones that wear out we find replacements for quick . If you are in the shop and hear a loud sound. It could be me throwing whatever the malfunctioning tool is in the trash. I just don't have the patience to continue to use a tool that doesn't work. Yet for some reason I keep hitting Driver. Lol. When All 13 of my other tools work.

 

I know you kid, but you probably keep hitting the driver because deep down, unlike the tools, you're the problem here.

 

I mean that in a good way. It's easy to blame a tool but based on your posts, you seem like a guy who has pride. Deep down you probably want to get it right, and when you mess up, you can't just throw the tool away because it isn't the tool's fault.

 

I'm glad you're not giving up.

 

 

Absolutely true. But then comes the But. Will I live long enough to overcome it ? Lol. 4 years and counting.

 

 

Edit. Made this statement in a tournament last Saturday. Was playing with my neighbor / club pro. I told him “ I don’t want to be forgiven. I want to hit good shots and make putts. “.after he asked why I swapped back to the old blade set that never leaves and After his suggestion that i could likely hit his new C300 irons a mile and straight.

 

Definitely hard headed. To a fault. But im as close now as I’ve ever been to a full bag of confidence.

[Donno]

I see a lot of members talk about using a 3 wood off the tee because the driver isn't working.......with todays technology and "forgiveness", you would think drivers are much easier to hit than years past. The huge 460cc heads are supposed to inspire confidence (I hate them personally), but its funny how a smaller head 3W with a shorter shaft provides that confidence to a lot of amateur players.....maybe club fitting should be geared towards shaft length along with the other fitting parameters. I know it is somewhat, but what are your thoughts? It seems a lot of people like the 3w off the tee because it flies straight for them....but the heads are tiny compared to todays drivers and I know the shafts are shorter.....maybe that's the key to good fitting. Sure you lose some yardage, but if it flies down the middle and you are confident with the club, hitting it 240 down the middle instead of 260 into the rough may save you 5 strokes a loop.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

3 wood sales must be down. I have yet to see a guy who can't hit a driver suddenly hit his 3W "down the middle" 240 yards. From what I've seen the 3W goes OB earlier....hitting the roof of a vacation home. Thank God...nobody was home.

[bladehunter]

I see a lot of members talk about using a 3 wood off the tee because the driver isn't working.......with todays technology and "forgiveness", you would think drivers are much easier to hit than years past. The huge 460cc heads are supposed to inspire confidence (I hate them personally), but its funny how a smaller head 3W with a shorter shaft provides that confidence to a lot of amateur players.....maybe club fitting should be geared towards shaft length along with the other fitting parameters. I know it is somewhat, but what are your thoughts? It seems a lot of people like the 3w off the tee because it flies straight for them....but the heads are tiny compared to todays drivers and I know the shafts are shorter.....maybe that's the key to good fitting. Sure you lose some yardage, but if it flies down the middle and you are confident with the club, hitting it 240 down the middle instead of 260 into the rough may save you 5 strokes a loop.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

3 wood sales must be down. I have yet to see a guy who can't hit a driver suddenly hit his 3W "down the middle" 240 yards. From what I've seen the 3W goes OB earlier....hitting the roof of a vacation home. Thank God...nobody was home.

 

 

nobody has said "cant hit" as in cant hit the face.... were talking straight... if you are a long hitter driver miss is wayyyyy larger that any miss with 3 wood can be... If your definition of miss is in the rough then you arent talking about the same miss I am ...

 

 

side note.. played 9 this evening and actually hit driver well with the exception of a bad break with a twig and a very very greedy line i took on a nearly drivable par 4...( if not for one twig i would have been golden....that twig didnt make it ,,lol) and one pull on final hole that found left tree line.... but it was hammered ! id much rather see the left miss than the wipe right...

[Donno]

I see a lot of members talk about using a 3 wood off the tee because the driver isn't working.......with todays technology and "forgiveness", you would think drivers are much easier to hit than years past. The huge 460cc heads are supposed to inspire confidence (I hate them personally), but its funny how a smaller head 3W with a shorter shaft provides that confidence to a lot of amateur players.....maybe club fitting should be geared towards shaft length along with the other fitting parameters. I know it is somewhat, but what are your thoughts? It seems a lot of people like the 3w off the tee because it flies straight for them....but the heads are tiny compared to todays drivers and I know the shafts are shorter.....maybe that's the key to good fitting. Sure you lose some yardage, but if it flies down the middle and you are confident with the club, hitting it 240 down the middle instead of 260 into the rough may save you 5 strokes a loop.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

3 wood sales must be down. I have yet to see a guy who can't hit a driver suddenly hit his 3W "down the middle" 240 yards. From what I've seen the 3W goes OB earlier....hitting the roof of a vacation home. Thank God...nobody was home.

 

 

nobody has said "cant hit" as in cant hit the face.... were talking straight... if you are a long hitter driver miss is wayyyyy larger that any miss with 3 wood can be... If your definition of miss is in the rough then you arent talking about the same miss I am ...

 

 

side note.. played 9 this evening and actually hit driver well with the exception of a bad break with a twig and a very very greedy line i took on a nearly drivable par 4...( if not for one twig i would have been golden....that twig didnt make it ,,lol) and one pull on final hole that found left tree line.... but it was hammered ! id much rather see the left miss than the wipe right...

 

What's the loft of the driver and what's the shaft? Way too many variables...then add mental shutdown.

[pinestreetgolf]

side note.. played 9 this evening and actually hit driver well with the exception of a bad break with a twig and a very very greedy line i took on a nearly drivable par 4...( if not for one twig i would have been golden....that twig didnt make it ,,lol) and one pull on final hole that found left tree line.... but it was hammered ! id much rather see the left miss than the wipe right...

 

nice! we're gonna make a bomb-n-gauger out of you yet. totally agree with you re: left versus right misses. the weak push is the literal worst.

 

Always remember when choosing a tee club that trees are 90% air. That's science.

[Donno]

I see a lot of members talk about using a 3 wood off the tee because the driver isn't working.......with todays technology and "forgiveness", you would think drivers are much easier to hit than years past. The huge 460cc heads are supposed to inspire confidence (I hate them personally), but its funny how a smaller head 3W with a shorter shaft provides that confidence to a lot of amateur players.....maybe club fitting should be geared towards shaft length along with the other fitting parameters. I know it is somewhat, but what are your thoughts? It seems a lot of people like the 3w off the tee because it flies straight for them....but the heads are tiny compared to todays drivers and I know the shafts are shorter.....maybe that's the key to good fitting. Sure you lose some yardage, but if it flies down the middle and you are confident with the club, hitting it 240 down the middle instead of 260 into the rough may save you 5 strokes a loop.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

3 wood sales must be down. I have yet to see a guy who can't hit a driver suddenly hit his 3W "down the middle" 240 yards. From what I've seen the 3W goes OB earlier....hitting the roof of a vacation home. Thank God...nobody was home.

 

 

nobody has said "cant hit" as in cant hit the face.... were talking straight... if you are a long hitter driver miss is wayyyyy larger that any miss with 3 wood can be... If your definition of miss is in the rough then you arent talking about the same miss I am ...

 

 

side note.. played 9 this evening and actually hit driver well with the exception of a bad break with a twig and a very very greedy line i took on a nearly drivable par 4...( if not for one twig i would have been golden....that twig didnt make it ,,lol) and one pull on final hole that found left tree line.... but it was hammered ! id much rather see the left miss than the wipe right...

 

The question is which miss can you depend upon?

[Bye]

So what happens when confidence is low? do you keep playing aggressively in the hope that the strategy will start to work or that you will find your game. Or is it still seen as the best option to lower scores?

 

I can understand the aggressive playing style when a players game is on.

[pinestreetgolf]

So what happens when confidence is low? do you keep playing aggressively in the hope that the strategy will start to work or that you will find your game. Or is it still seen as the best option to lower scores?

 

I can understand the aggressive playing style when a players game is on.

 

You don't make artificial determinations about when you are "on" or when you are not. Its like an NBA shooter. If you're open, you shoot.

 

I'd much rather shoot a lot of 65s and a lot of 85s then a whole lot of 75s, for two reasons. One, its more fun. Two, if I'm in an event, and I back-to-back 65s I might hoist a title. 75 never gets me anything anywhere except a bus ticket home. That doesn't mean I take insane risks, but it does mean that I don't try to have some sort of conversation with myself about whether or not I'm "on" and then change if I convince myself that I'm not doing well that day. If you did that in any other field they'd put you in a mental hospital.

 

"Sir, you were going 35 on the interstate"

"Yeah, sorry, I just felt like my driving game was off today so I wanted to play it safe"

 

You have to play this game with tons of confidence or you may as well not show up.

[Bye]

So what happens when confidence is low? do you keep playing aggressively in the hope that the strategy will start to work or that you will find your game. Or is it still seen as the best option to lower scores?

 

I can understand the aggressive playing style when a players game is on.

 

You don't make artificial determinations about when you are "on" or when you are not. Its like an NBA shooter. If you're open, you shoot.

 

I'd much rather shoot a lot of 65s and a lot of 85s then a whole lot of 75s, for two reasons. One, its more fun. Two, if I'm in an event, and I back-to-back 65s I might hoist a title. 75 never gets me anything anywhere except a bus ticket home. That doesn't mean I take insane risks, but it does mean that I don't try to have some sort of conversation with myself about whether or not I'm "on" and then change if I convince myself that I'm not doing well that day. If you did that in any other field they'd put you in a mental hospital.

 

"Sir, you were going 35 on the interstate"

"Yeah, sorry, I just felt like my driving game was off today so I wanted to play it safe"

 

You have to play this game with tons of confidence or you may as well not show up.

 

I mean more about playing with what you have on the day. Not everyone is Mo Norman. Some days it just clicks halfway round, sometimes its there from the first. Other times its weeks away. It's not a conversation its a feeling. Does this type of player adapt if things are going well or badly during the round?

 

I have never met a decent player that goes out with the intention of shooting 75 or the mentality that it will get it done. It's harder to build a good score making a ton of bogies.

 

Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.

 

I was just trying to understand the thought process behind it.

[deadsolid...shank]

So what happens when confidence is low? do you keep playing aggressively in the hope that the strategy will start to work or that you will find your game. Or is it still seen as the best option to lower scores?

 

I can understand the aggressive playing style when a players game is on.

 

You don't make artificial determinations about when you are "on" or when you are not. Its like an NBA shooter. If you're open, you shoot.

 

I'd much rather shoot a lot of 65s and a lot of 85s then a whole lot of 75s, for two reasons. One, its more fun. Two, if I'm in an event, and I back-to-back 65s I might hoist a title. 75 never gets me anything anywhere except a bus ticket home. That doesn't mean I take insane risks, but it does mean that I don't try to have some sort of conversation with myself about whether or not I'm "on" and then change if I convince myself that I'm not doing well that day. If you did that in any other field they'd put you in a mental hospital.

 

"Sir, you were going 35 on the interstate"

"Yeah, sorry, I just felt like my driving game was off today so I wanted to play it safe"

 

You have to play this game with tons of confidence or you may as well not show up.

 

I won't comment on playing with confidence because that seems to get laughed off as pointless when it's brought up in relation to the reason Stenson hits 3 wood instead of driver. That's for another conversation. Something akin to he's confident with his 3 wood so he chooses to hit it.

.

 

But Its not like shooting a basketball. When you shoot a basketball there are two possible outcomes. It goes in or it doesn't. And there are no varying levels of how it makes or misses. A golf shot has all kinds of varying levels of results. You can hit a drive that leaves a wide open 2nd, a partially open, a completely blocked second, or in a penalty situation. And all kinds of variations in between. Its not an "either or" result.

 

And shooters absolutely will pass on open shots when they are not "on".

[deadsolid...shank]

So what happens when confidence is low? do you keep playing aggressively in the hope that the strategy will start to work or that you will find your game. Or is it still seen as the best option to lower scores?

 

I can understand the aggressive playing style when a players game is on.

 

You don't make artificial determinations about when you are "on" or when you are not. Its like an NBA shooter. If you're open, you shoot.

 

I'd much rather shoot a lot of 65s and a lot of 85s then a whole lot of 75s, for two reasons. One, its more fun. Two, if I'm in an event, and I back-to-back 65s I might hoist a title. 75 never gets me anything anywhere except a bus ticket home. That doesn't mean I take insane risks, but it does mean that I don't try to have some sort of conversation with myself about whether or not I'm "on" and then change if I convince myself that I'm not doing well that day. If you did that in any other field they'd put you in a mental hospital.

 

"Sir, you were going 35 on the interstate"

"Yeah, sorry, I just felt like my driving game was off today so I wanted to play it safe"

 

You have to play this game with tons of confidence or you may as well not show up.

 

I mean more about playing with what you have on the day. Not everyone is Mo Norman. Some days it just clicks halfway round, sometimes its there from the first. Other times its weeks away. It's not a conversation its a feeling. Does this type of player adapt if things are going well or badly during the round?

 

I have never met a decent player that goes out with the intention of shooting 75 or the mentality that it will get it done. It's harder to build a good score making a ton of bogies.

 

Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.

 

I was just trying to understand the thought process behind it.

 

For me, and PSG and I have argued this back and forth numerous times. If I've started out with several poor or even iffy drives that leave me scrambling to post any kind of respectable number, I going to switch clubs to just try to get something in play where I'm not going to have to work so hard to save a number. I'm not going to continue to swing the driver when it's yielding constant poor results. Much like the basketball player analogy, if I'm off (and yes, that is a real thing) shooting the ball, I'm not going to continue to fire up threes in the hope that they will start falling. I'm going to change up my game a bit, drive, pass, try to get the free throw line where I can see the ball go through the hoop (it really does make a difference).

 

Point is, for me anyway, I'm changing something up.

[Ri_Redneck]

side note.. played 9 this evening and actually hit driver well with the exception of a bad break with a twig and a very very greedy line i took on a nearly drivable par 4...( if not for one twig i would have been golden....that twig didnt make it ,,lol) and one pull on final hole that found left tree line.... but it was hammered ! id much rather see the left miss than the wipe right...

 

nice! we're gonna make a bomb-n-gauger out of you yet. totally agree with you re: left versus right misses. the weak push is the literal worst.

 

Always remember when choosing a tee club that trees are 90% air. That's science.

 

That doesn't apply to palm trees. I swear, those damn fronds will knock the ball down every time! Have to keep the ball low underneath. I've been playing the driver more since last posting here. I just make sure to research the course I'm playing before-hand to see where the landing area is too narrow for it. Still play the 3w, 7w and 4i at times. just not quite as often. We'll see if the hcp drops this year.

 

BT

[pinestreetgolf]

Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.

 

All confidence is unfounded.

 

http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2010/01/07/how-baseball-and-softball-outf/

 

Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.

 

For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.

 

I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.

 

Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.

[ThinkingPlus]

Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.

 

All confidence is unfounded.

 

http://scienceblogs....-softball-outf/

 

Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.

 

For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.

 

I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.

 

Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.

Sir Roger Bannister. He recently passed away.

[bladehunter]

Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.

 

All confidence is unfounded.

 

http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2010/01/07/how-baseball-and-softball-outf/

 

Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.

 

For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.

 

I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.

 

Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you as far as how we humans do things that’s we shouldn’t be able to. But there’s also an intangible confidence or swagger that is really being “ in the zone” that is spoken about in All sports. It’s rare. And I think most never see it.

 

I’ve always felt blessed to be one of the odd balls that has been there. In basketball , track and golf I’ve been there. It’s such an addicting feeling. And literally an out of body experience. It’s just as described by guys like phil or tiger or Spieth. They describe “ knowing “ that’s they would win. Or knowing that that they would pull off some impossible shot. It’s an unbelievable feeling. I’ve had it last a whole round. Or only a hole or two. If only we could call it up at will.

 

 

Said All that to make this point. Once you’ve known that. It’s increasingly hard to lie to yourself and have the “ irrational “ confidence. Why ? You know the truth. Truth is that you can do much more than most think is possible. But. The other truth is you don’t know exactly how to tap into it.

 

Maybe that’s alll beside the point with this actual topic. But I think it plays a part for me when we are talking actual confidence. Why ? Because when I’m down. I feel Iike it’s already fated to be a terrible round. And nothing I do will change it ( opposite of confidence) . Opposite is true when on that high. I could hit a ball into a creek and I swear I’ll get a decent lie and think “ I can hole this “. And I’ve done It before. Trick I’m trying to work out now is how to trick myself into this state of mind. It’s very slow feeling.and requires very little effort. Lol. Nuts I know.

 

Confidence. A very fragile thing.

[Bye]

Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.

 

All confidence is unfounded.

 

http://scienceblogs....-softball-outf/

 

Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.

 

For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.

 

I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.

 

Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.

 

 

I would not call that irrational but confirmation that something is possible. That breeds confidence, like the first time your break par or go bogie free. Like JT watching his mate Jordan winning majors at such young age. It is possible, he has done that and so can I.

 

Just believing you are going to shoot 65 every time you tee it up is irrational. Sure have a goal but sometimes a touch of reality can help. This may be that I am getting older and have a different out look on things now.

 

This site would be dull if we all agreed on everything. We may not agree, but I find your points interesting.

[Bye]

Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.

 

All confidence is unfounded.

 

http://scienceblogs....-softball-outf/

 

Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.

 

For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.

 

I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.

 

Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you as far as how we humans do things that's we shouldn't be able to. But there's also an intangible confidence or swagger that is really being " in the zone" that is spoken about in All sports. It's rare. And I think most never see it.

 

I've always felt blessed to be one of the odd balls that has been there. In basketball , track and golf I've been there. It's such an addicting feeling. And literally an out of body experience. It's just as described by guys like phil or tiger or Spieth. They describe " knowing " that's they would win. Or knowing that that they would pull off some impossible shot. It's an unbelievable feeling. I've had it last a whole round. Or only a hole or two. If only we could call it up at will.

 

 

Said All that to make this point. Once you've known that. It's increasingly hard to lie to yourself and have the " irrational " confidence. Why ? You know the truth. Truth is that you can do much more than most think is possible. But. The other truth is you don't know exactly how to tap into it.

 

Maybe that's alll beside the point with this actual topic. But I think it plays a part for me when we are talking actual confidence. Why ? Because when I'm down. I feel Iike it's already fated to be a terrible round. And nothing I do will change it ( opposite of confidence) . Opposite is true when on that high. I could hit a ball into a creek and I swear I'll get a decent lie and think " I can hole this ". And I've done It before. Trick I'm trying to work out now is how to trick myself into this state of mind. It's very slow feeling.and requires very little effort. Lol. Nuts I know.

 

Confidence. A very fragile thing.

 

I think it is the essence of the topic, do you continue with something in the hope or belief that it will work.

 

Some players make a career out of turning up once or twice a year and win. Others grind it out all year and pay their bills with consistency.

 

Is the best way for someone to get better hitting a driver even though they have zero confidence in it or do they use something else that may have limitations but keeps the ball in play.

 

Just because it works for one player does not mean it will for everyone.

[North Butte]

This so-called discussion continues to conflate the club with the strategy.

 

The analytics say that laying up with significantly shorter tee shots than you can hit only makes sense if you do it to avoid full-stroke or worse consequences for poor shots. The analytics don't say jack s*** about what particular model and specification of club you ought to be using.

 

If you, personally, can't hit muscleback blades with DGX300 shafts hardstepped twice then it would be stupid to try and do it. Likewise, if you personally can't get a ball in play off the tee with any driver you've ever tried, then you would be stupid to try and do it. "Analytics" can't get inside your head or diagnose your swing flaws to say one way or another where you "should hit driver" or not.

 

That said, if you can hit lots of fairways and almost certainly keep the ball between the tree line with a 43-1/2" 14-degree fairway wood with a tiny little clubhead but can't hit it where you can find it with ANY 45" 460cc driver then it would really be in your best interest to fix your driver "issues", don't you think?

[Bye]

This so-called discussion continues to conflate the club with the strategy.

 

The analytics say that laying up with significantly shorter tee shots than you can hit only makes sense if you do it to avoid full-stroke or worse consequences for poor shots. The analytics don't say jack s*** about what particular model and specification of club you ought to be using.

 

If you, personally, can't hit muscleback blades with DGX300 shafts hardstepped twice then it would be stupid to try and do it. Likewise, if you personally can't get a ball in play off the tee with any driver you've ever tried, then you would be stupid to try and do it. "Analytics" can't get inside your head or diagnose your swing flaws to say one way or another where you "should hit driver" or not.

 

That said, if you can hit lots of fairways and almost certainly keep the ball between the tree line with a 43-1/2" 14-degree fairway wood with a tiny little clubhead but can't hit it where you can find it with ANY 45" 460cc driver then it would really be in your best interest to fix your driver "issues", don't you think?

 

You lost me in the middle (not difficult) but just fixing your driver issues sounds easy, but do you risk the rest of your game to do that?

[North Butte]

This so-called discussion continues to conflate the club with the strategy.

 

The analytics say that laying up with significantly shorter tee shots than you can hit only makes sense if you do it to avoid full-stroke or worse consequences for poor shots. The analytics don't say jack s*** about what particular model and specification of club you ought to be using.

 

If you, personally, can't hit muscleback blades with DGX300 shafts hardstepped twice then it would be stupid to try and do it. Likewise, if you personally can't get a ball in play off the tee with any driver you've ever tried, then you would be stupid to try and do it. "Analytics" can't get inside your head or diagnose your swing flaws to say one way or another where you "should hit driver" or not.

 

That said, if you can hit lots of fairways and almost certainly keep the ball between the tree line with a 43-1/2" 14-degree fairway wood with a tiny little clubhead but can't hit it where you can find it with ANY 45" 460cc driver then it would really be in your best interest to fix your driver "issues", don't you think?

 

You lost me in the middle (not difficult) but just fixing your driver issues sounds easy, but do you risk the rest of your game to do that?

 

The analytics say:

 

"Hit the ball as far as possible off the tee unless doing so brings a high likelihood of lost ball or OB penalties. In that case, hit the longest club that does not create a large penalty risk".

 

It's up to you to know what "as far as possible off the tee" means. For 99% of golfers that means driver. But if you swing a driver so bad that every swing is literally a potential penalty or you swing it so bad that on average a 3-wood ends up actually going farther (because so many driver shots are awful) then "as far as possible off the tee" means 3-wood. Or 2-iron or 6-iron or whatever you can actually hit where you can find it.

[Bye]

This so-called discussion continues to conflate the club with the strategy.

 

The analytics say that laying up with significantly shorter tee shots than you can hit only makes sense if you do it to avoid full-stroke or worse consequences for poor shots. The analytics don't say jack s*** about what particular model and specification of club you ought to be using.

 

If you, personally, can't hit muscleback blades with DGX300 shafts hardstepped twice then it would be stupid to try and do it. Likewise, if you personally can't get a ball in play off the tee with any driver you've ever tried, then you would be stupid to try and do it. "Analytics" can't get inside your head or diagnose your swing flaws to say one way or another where you "should hit driver" or not.

 

That said, if you can hit lots of fairways and almost certainly keep the ball between the tree line with a 43-1/2" 14-degree fairway wood with a tiny little clubhead but can't hit it where you can find it with ANY 45" 460cc driver then it would really be in your best interest to fix your driver "issues", don't you think?

 

You lost me in the middle (not difficult) but just fixing your driver issues sounds easy, but do you risk the rest of your game to do that?

 

The analytics say:

 

"Hit the ball as far as possible off the tee unless doing so brings a high likelihood of lost ball or OB penalties. In that case, hit the longest club that does not create a large penalty risk".

 

It's up to you to know what "as far as possible off the tee" means. For 99% of golfers that means driver. But if you swing a driver so bad that every swing is literally a potential penalty or you swing it so bad that on average a 3-wood ends up actually going farther (because so many driver shots are awful) then "as far as possible off the tee" means 3-wood. Or 2-iron or 6-iron or whatever you can actually hit where you can find it.

 

I got that bit, it was the x300 reference.

[North Butte]

This so-called discussion continues to conflate the club with the strategy.

 

The analytics say that laying up with significantly shorter tee shots than you can hit only makes sense if you do it to avoid full-stroke or worse consequences for poor shots. The analytics don't say jack s*** about what particular model and specification of club you ought to be using.

 

If you, personally, can't hit muscleback blades with DGX300 shafts hardstepped twice then it would be stupid to try and do it. Likewise, if you personally can't get a ball in play off the tee with any driver you've ever tried, then you would be stupid to try and do it. "Analytics" can't get inside your head or diagnose your swing flaws to say one way or another where you "should hit driver" or not.

 

That said, if you can hit lots of fairways and almost certainly keep the ball between the tree line with a 43-1/2" 14-degree fairway wood with a tiny little clubhead but can't hit it where you can find it with ANY 45" 460cc driver then it would really be in your best interest to fix your driver "issues", don't you think?

 

You lost me in the middle (not difficult) but just fixing your driver issues sounds easy, but do you risk the rest of your game to do that?

 

The analytics say:

 

"Hit the ball as far as possible off the tee unless doing so brings a high likelihood of lost ball or OB penalties. In that case, hit the longest club that does not create a large penalty risk".

 

It's up to you to know what "as far as possible off the tee" means. For 99% of golfers that means driver. But if you swing a driver so bad that every swing is literally a potential penalty or you swing it so bad that on average a 3-wood ends up actually going farther (because so many driver shots are awful) then "as far as possible off the tee" means 3-wood. Or 2-iron or 6-iron or whatever you can actually hit where you can find it.

 

I got that bit, it was the x300 reference.

 

I was trying to say telling someone they "ought to" use a driver, specifically, is like telling someone they "ought to" use such-and-such a type of shaft in the irons. If you don't know their game, you don't know X300 from R300 or driver from 3-wood!

[mahonie]

This so-called discussion continues to conflate the club with the strategy.

 

The analytics say that laying up with significantly shorter tee shots than you can hit only makes sense if you do it to avoid full-stroke or worse consequences for poor shots. The analytics don't say jack s*** about what particular model and specification of club you ought to be using.

 

If you, personally, can't hit muscleback blades with DGX300 shafts hardstepped twice then it would be stupid to try and do it. Likewise, if you personally can't get a ball in play off the tee with any driver you've ever tried, then you would be stupid to try and do it. "Analytics" can't get inside your head or diagnose your swing flaws to say one way or another where you "should hit driver" or not.

 

That said, if you can hit lots of fairways and almost certainly keep the ball between the tree line with a 43-1/2" 14-degree fairway wood with a tiny little clubhead but can't hit it where you can find it with ANY 45" 460cc driver then it would really be in your best interest to fix your driver "issues", don't you think?

 

You lost me in the middle (not difficult) but just fixing your driver issues sounds easy, but do you risk the rest of your game to do that?

 

The analytics say:

 

"Hit the ball as far as possible off the tee unless doing so brings a high likelihood of lost ball or OB penalties. In that case, hit the longest club that does not create a large penalty risk".

 

It's up to you to know what "as far as possible off the tee" means. For 99% of golfers that means driver. But if you swing a driver so bad that every swing is literally a potential penalty or you swing it so bad that on average a 3-wood ends up actually going farther (because so many driver shots are awful) then "as far as possible off the tee" means 3-wood. Or 2-iron or 6-iron or whatever you can actually hit where you can find it.

 

That analysis doesn’t really stack up when you look at Strokes Gained:

 

‘Players average about the same average number of shots to go from 70 yards in the rough (2.92) that they do from 150 yards in the fairway (2.92).

 

Players average just over three shots (3.01) from 170 yards in the fairway. This is the same average from 100 yards in the rough (3.00).’

 

My understanding of this is that if I am hitting fairway with 3-wood, if my driver is in the rough, it needs to be at least 70-80 yards further on if I am going to benefit from the added distance.

[North Butte]

That would assume you could hit every fairway with the 3-wood and miss every fairway with the driver.

 

 

[roundersmitty]

I will always opt for driver unless there is trouble. Hitting driver is so much fun...why keep it in the bag the whole game?

[mahonie]

That would assume you could hit every fairway with the 3-wood and miss every fairway with the driver.

...and that you hit the driver 70 yards further than the 3-wood.

[pinestreetgolf]

That would assume you could hit every fairway with the 3-wood and miss every fairway with the driver.

...and that you hit the driver 70 yards further than the 3-wood.

 

Right. Neither of those things are true, which is why that post doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

[Macklessdaddy]

I will always opt for driver unless there is trouble. Hitting driver is so much fun...why keep it in the bag the whole game?

I will always opt for driver unless there is trouble. Hitting driver is so much fun...why keep it in the bag the whole game?

 

No s***!t it's fun.........when you are good with it and can generally hit it where you are aiming.

If you can't do that then it's not remotely fun. Oh and you keep it in the bag when it's hurting your scores