Gross score payout vs net score payout

[Shipwreck]

I love my men's group. They are a great bunch of guys and it's honestly like a little family. My one major gripe (as is a lot of guys in the club) is the payout. We do low gross/low net pretty much every weekend, which is fine, but they only pay out 2 spots for low gross and upwards of 7-8 spots for low net. People have expressed the concern, because the low handicap people don't normally have a chance in hell for a low net win, and the clubs excuse? We don't want to scare off the higher handicaps. How about you pay out 4 spots each and call it good. Hell, I don't think that 8th place bet even gets their money back. It's kind of ridiculous.

 

Anyone else have a similar problem?

[SNIPERBBB]

Personally, id have that flipped so gross pays more spots than met.

[rcb1586]

It can be difficult to get the correct ratio of payout for gross vs. net.

 

Here's a hypothetical based on some rough approximations:

We have 5 guys that play from 0 to 5 handicap, 10 that play from 6-15, and 15 that play from 16-25.

 

If you pay 4 spots to each low gross and net then it would go like this:

The 0-5 guys would win the gross money 90% of the time.

Every once in a while the 6-15 will have a good round and claim some gross money and likely some net money as well.

The 16-25 have no chance of winning gross money so they are all playing for net.

That means you have 20+ guys playing for net and 7-8 playing for gross.

 

In that scenario it makes sense to have different payouts.

If there is a more even handicap distribution then that would obviously change things.

 

Edited because I managed to mix up gross and net throughout the entire post.

[Shipwreck]

We have 45 guys in our group (averaging about 24-28 players a week) and here is the HC break down:

0-5 HC - 3 players

6-15 HC - 23 players

15+ - 19 players

 

It just sucks because every week you have more high HC winning money in the net category where us 5 and lower HC players need to play hot to win either gross or net. I'd rather see them take away a couple net spots for one more gross spot. It just seems wildly unfair to the lower HC players.

[rcb1586]

We have 45 guys in our group (averaging about 24-28 players a week) and here is the HC break down:

0-5 HC - 3 players

6-15 HC - 23 players

15+ - 19 players

 

It just sucks because every week you have more high HC winning money in the net category where us 5 and lower HC players need to play hot to win either gross or net. I'd rather see them take away a couple net spots for one more gross spot. It just seems wildly unfair to the lower HC players.

It would be interesting if you could look at results from the last year and see if they are truly winning more money.

 

With only 3 guys playing at 0-5, you should be taking the gross money a good portion of the time.

The other guys are competing against a field that is 8 times as large for net.

So while the net category is winning more money overall, any one individual should not be.

[larrybud]

So what are they paying out *FROM*? A single pot that you all put into? If that's the case, why not have separate pots, both of which are optional (or at least, you must be in one or both).

[Shilgy]

So what are they paying out *FROM*? A single pot that you all put into? If that's the case, why not have separate pots, both of which are optional (or at least, you must be in one or both).

Agree-and they wold probably get about 5 at most in the gross pot.

[Mcook929]

Our weekend members game is a $20 buy in and its a blind draw. It pays low team, low nets and skins. It does not pay any gross scores. It's that way to keeps interest from every member at the club. For a 0-3 hdcp you really have to play well and rely on a good draw. And there is a solid chance that a couple of your birdies will catch a skin.

[longballjs]

At my course we have low gross and a low net, each with separate buy ins

[raynorfan1]

For a regular group that can be correctly handicapped, most of the payout should be in the net - that's the whole point of the handicap system. It gets wonky when you have a sandbagging risk.

[teejaywhy]

Flights.

 

[raynorfan1]

We have 45 guys in our group (averaging about 24-28 players a week) and here is the HC break down:

0-5 HC - 3 players

6-15 HC - 23 players

15+ - 19 players

 

It just sucks because every week you have more high HC winning money in the net category where us 5 and lower HC players need to play hot to win either gross or net. I'd rather see them take away a couple net spots for one more gross spot. It just seems wildly unfair to the lower HC players.

 

The way it's structured actually seems pretty fair to me.

 

You've got 45 guys, of which only about half play in a given week. You've got maybe 6 guys (the three 0-5 guys plus the best three of the 6-15) who have a legitimate shot at the gross. If four of them show up in a given week (they're better golfers, so you get higher than average participation), those four guys have a 50:50 shot of being in the money and a 1:4 chance of winning outright.

 

Assume the same six guys have no chance at the net (though a really good round by the ~7 handicap guy probably wins both gross and net). You've got then 39 guys competing for the net, and only ~19 show up in any given week. If you pay out 8 spots, they've got only a 40% chance of being in the money, and just a 5% chance of winning overall.

 

That feels fair.

[Shipwreck]

I should have clarified a couple of things:

You can either win gross or net, not both.

 

A lot of our mid HC guys have been mid HCers for ages, and their HCs aren't changing anytime soon. So they might shoot 85, or 76. It's kind of a crap shoot in that regards.

 

I don't mind a high HC winning net, it's obviously there for a reason. But me as a 5 HC, if I don't shoot near my HC I probably won't win gross, and if I shoot an 81, there's no way in hell im winning anything in the net category either.

[raynorfan1]

I don't mind a high HC winning net, it's obviously there for a reason. But me as a 5 HC, if I don't shoot near my HC I probably won't win gross, and if I shoot an 81, there's no way in hell im winning anything in the net category either.

 

If you have a bad round, why should you expect to win anything?

 

The whole point of a net competition is that you should win for playing a really good (for you) round. It's not about identifying who the best golfer is that day -> that's the gross competition.

[Shilgy]

I should have clarified a couple of things:

You can either win gross or net, not both.

 

A lot of our mid HC guys have been mid HCers for ages, and their HCs aren't changing anytime soon. So they might shoot 85, or 76. It's kind of a crap shoot in that regards.

 

I don't mind a high HC winning net, it's obviously there for a reason. But me as a 5 HC, if I don't shoot near my HC I probably won't win gross, and if I shoot an 81, there's no way in hell im winning anything in the net category either.

I would not think any player shooting 4 or 5 strokes over their cap would win anything net. You are probably seeing the higher caps as one entity. As in one of them wins low net more often than you do.

[J13]

My club we end up mixing hcp's and playing games like Chicago ect..

[nsxguy]

We have 45 guys in our group (averaging about 24-28 players a week) and here is the HC break down:

0-5 HC - 3 players

6-15 HC - 23 players

15+ - 19 players

 

It just sucks because every week you have more high HC winning money in the net category where us 5 and lower HC players need to play hot to win either gross or net. I'd rather see them take away a couple net spots for one more gross spot. It just seems wildly unfair to the lower HC players.

 

I knew this was coming eventually. :taunt:

 

You have 2 prizes (gross) where roughly 5-8 guys can win. Sounds like a pretty good ratio to me.

 

And you have to know that the more higher handicappers on any given day the more one of them will win the net.

 

But then you have almost 10 prizes per round. That ain't bad.

 

My old club used to have about 4 or 5 payouts Gross & net) on about 24 golfers.

[TheCityGame]

In your event, a low handicapper player has two ways to win. . .gross and net, and a high handicap player has only one way to win. And the LOW handicap players are complaining?

 

At my old club, more guys used to complain there was any gross prize AT ALL.

 

Really, OP, I think your payout structure is pretty good. The club I help run now, we typically only do one low gross and everything else is net. Essentially we're saying that low man on the day should get paid for it, but it's really a "net event".

 

You're saying low handicappers don't have a chance in h3ll to win. I get that a little. It's a little more likely for a higher handicap player to go well under the net score (and you have a pretty big field), but you compensate for that by having gross only prizes. The flip side of that is that a steady low handicap player should be taking a lot of 4th-8th in the net. In my old club, I was ALWAYS snagging those deep net prizes on my "off" days with net 73's and net 74's. The high capper's off days were turning in net 82's.

[raynorfan1]

In your event, a low handicapper player has two ways to win. . .gross and net, and a high handicap player has only one way to win. And the LOW handicap players are complaining?

 

In my experience, low handicap players have a hard time adjusting to the mentality of "club golf". Correctly handicapped "club golf" is intended to be an event where all participants have a roughly equal chance of winning on any given day. Better players have statistically a slight advantage (but they never see it this way). The problem is that low handicap golfers - who have invested a ton of time and effort in being as good as they are - have a really hard time mentally "getting" that when they walk into a handicapped event, the whole intent is that all of that time and effort is moot. They're competing on generally equal footing with everybody else.

 

They look across the 25 guys, and say: "I'm clearly one of the best three golfers here, if I don't win once every three or four weeks, it's totally unfair!" When in reality, they're only supposed to have about a 4.2% chance of winning.

 

In fairness, most adult sports (running, triathlon, etc.) are unhandicapped (except in broad age / competence flights), so it seems "normal" for them to expect that they would win a lot. And realistically, if they just considered the Gross to be the competition, they would win a lot and satisfy their expectations...

[Matt J]

I like separating the gross and net bet to give people the option. Especially for skins for instance. A 15 or worse has no business in a gross game just like a 2 is always going to lose net.

[TheCityGame]

I also don't trust people's "intuition" statistically.

 

Low handicapper might think, "oh, it's always a high handicapper winning it" when in fact, if the high handicappers outnumber the low handicappers 10-1, they should be "always" winning it.

 

If you have 25 events, and a low capper has only won low net once, well, you're really not that far off from what you would expect. Low capper wins 3 of your next 15, and you're right back on "schedule".

 

You want to convince me it's unfair? Break it down. Track it. Show me the distribution of the handicaps and the payouts for your next 30 events.

[deadsolid...shank]

Our weekend members game is a $20 buy in and its a blind draw. It pays low team, low nets and skins. It does not pay any gross scores. It's that way to keeps interest from every member at the club. For a 0-3 hdcp you really have to play well and rely on a good draw. And there is a solid chance that a couple of your birdies will catch a skin.

 

Are your skins gross then? When we played in ours the skins were net also, so it was another factor that made the low handicaps reluctant to play.

[nsxguy]

In your event, a low handicapper player has two ways to win. . .gross and net, and a high handicap player has only one way to win. And the LOW handicap players are complaining?

 

In my experience, low handicap players have a hard time adjusting to the mentality of "club golf". Correctly handicapped "club golf" is intended to be an event where all participants have a roughly equal chance of winning on any given day. Better players have statistically a slight advantage (but they never see it this way). The problem is that low handicap golfers - who have invested a ton of time and effort in being as good as they are - have a really hard time mentally "getting" that when they walk into a handicapped event, the whole intent is that all of that time and effort is moot. They're competing on generally equal footing with everybody else.

 

They look across the 25 guys, and say: "I'm clearly one of the best three golfers here, if I don't win once every three or four weeks, it's totally unfair!" When in reality, they're only supposed to have about a 4.2% chance of winning.

 

In fairness, most adult sports (running, triathlon, etc.) are unhandicapped (except in broad age / competence flights), so it seems "normal" for them to expect that they would win a lot. And realistically, if they just considered the Gross to be the competition, they would win a lot and satisfy their expectations...

 

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

[one putz]

but you are in it twice, once for gross and once for net. the mid to high handicappers are only in on the net. there's only 3 players under 5 HC, so you should only be cashing once in 15 tries if it were perfectly fair. more high handicappers means they will cash more often but be splitting it between the 20+ of them. seems fine to me.

[Shipwreck]

Considering there are only 3 people with a HC of 5 and under (BTW the 3 of us hardly ever play every weekend, it's usually 1-2 tops) sure you can look at it as we have 2 chances to win something. This issue wasn't actually brought up by the low handicap players, it was actually the mid cappers that say something because they feel they have the worst shot at winning something because it's the 18-25 crowd that seems to win most of the low net money. Last week it was two 8 handicaps that won the low gross with 79 and 81, but they paid out 6 spots for low net with 4 of them being 17 and greater HC.

 

I just feel that if they are going to pay out 8 spots, make it 4 and 4 not 2 and 6. That 6th place guy might have had the 3rd best net score which would give him more money.

[Shipwreck]

Believe it or not I don't expect to go out and win every single week I play because all I can do is play my game, everything else is out of my control. But in terms of equality and fairness, the lower, mid range HC guys have the same chance, if not better, to win money than I do. They are the ones that can shoot 75 on a good day and 85 on a bad. My 75 nets me a 70 where there's would be a 67 or something.

 

This wasn't a thread intended on crying and wanting sympathy because I'm not "always winning", it was merely to see if anyone else's group has a similar pay out structure and what they see as fair.

[bladehunter]

I don't mind a high HC winning net, it's obviously there for a reason. But me as a 5 HC, if I don't shoot near my HC I probably won't win gross, and if I shoot an 81, there's no way in hell im winning anything in the net category either.

 

If you have a bad round, why should you expect to win anything?

 

The whole point of a net competition is that you should win for playing a really good (for you) round. It's not about identifying who the best golfer is that day -> that's the gross competition.

 

 

a 5 handicap shooting 81 isnt a "bad" round.. its about average or a little above...hes saying he has to shoot his handicap to have a sniff of a chance... which has always been my experience in handicapped events... yet a 15 can shoot 95 and have a very good chance at winnig every week...

 

the answer OP is either get used to it or stop playing in handicapped events.. i chose the latter and very rarley will enter anything that isnt flighted

 

 

edit.. what im saying is try to find better players than yourself to play with .. your game will thank you for it ...

[bladehunter]

In your event, a low handicapper player has two ways to win. . .gross and net, and a high handicap player has only one way to win. And the LOW handicap players are complaining?

 

In my experience, low handicap players have a hard time adjusting to the mentality of "club golf". Correctly handicapped "club golf" is intended to be an event where all participants have a roughly equal chance of winning on any given day. Better players have statistically a slight advantage (but they never see it this way). The problem is that low handicap golfers - who have invested a ton of time and effort in being as good as they are - have a really hard time mentally "getting" that when they walk into a handicapped event, the whole intent is that all of that time and effort is moot. They're competing on generally equal footing with everybody else.

 

They look across the 25 guys, and say: "I'm clearly one of the best three golfers here, if I don't win once every three or four weeks, it's totally unfair!" When in reality, they're only supposed to have about a 4.2% chance of winning.

 

In fairness, most adult sports (running, triathlon, etc.) are unhandicapped (except in broad age / competence flights), so it seems "normal" for them to expect that they would win a lot. And realistically, if they just considered the Gross to be the competition, they would win a lot and satisfy their expectations...

 

 

so you feel it fair that the folks who never work on their game consistantly best the guys who have dedicsted alot of time to perfecting theirs? seems a bit like participation trophies to me.... i stop agreeing with that at age 10..... the system is grossly flawed.... dont believe me ? try entering a handicapped match play event.... if you are a 5 or better it will make you see red...... you can shoot your handicap and still get beat handily ....

[nsxguy]

Considering there are only 3 people with a HC of 5 and under (BTW the 3 of us hardly ever play every weekend, it's usually 1-2 tops) sure you can look at it as we have 2 chances to win something. This issue wasn't actually brought up by the low handicap players, it was actually the mid cappers that say something because they feel they have the worst shot at winning something because it's the 18-25 crowd that seems to win most of the low net money. Last week it was two 8 handicaps that won the low gross with 79 and 81, but they paid out 6 spots for low net with 4 of them being 17 and greater HC.

 

I just feel that if they are going to pay out 8 spots, make it 4 and 4 not 2 and 6. That 6th place guy might have had the 3rd best net score which would give him more money.

 

While you say you're not complaining,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, your solution sure doesn't sound like it.

 

You say it's the mid cappers complaining ? And you want to double the number of gross prizes ?

 

So instead of those mid cappers having 6 chances to win, now they only (realistically) have 4. Your solution's going to make them happier ? Nope. It will make you happier though.

 

And you, one of the better players, will then have 4 chances to win instead of 2,,,,,, out of maybe what, 10 players ?

 

The mid cappers have 6 chances out of 24 to win a prize.

 

The lowest handicappers (you don't specify how many 6s or 7s or 8s there are) have 2 chances out of about (maybe) 10.

 

And your solution would change that to lower cappers having 4 chances out of 10 (OK, maybe 12-14 now that there are 4 prizes) and reduce the higher handicappers chances to 4 out of 24. I can't see that as going over very well.

 

My club, given 24 players, would have 2 gross prizes. We did however, have more guys grouped at the top, maybe 7 or 8 within 2-3 shots of the best 'cap on many days. Now occasionally someone outside of those top 7 or 8 would win a/the gross prize but that didn't happen very often. I doubt it happens too often at your club either.

[nsxguy]

I don't mind a high HC winning net, it's obviously there for a reason. But me as a 5 HC, if I don't shoot near my HC I probably won't win gross, and if I shoot an 81, there's no way in hell im winning anything in the net category either.

 

If you have a bad round, why should you expect to win anything?

 

The whole point of a net competition is that you should win for playing a really good (for you) round. It's not about identifying who the best golfer is that day -> that's the gross competition.

 

yet a 15 can shoot 95 and have a very good chance at winnig every week...

 

Ummmmm,,,,,,,,,,, Whuuuuut ? :dntknw: