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Gross score payout vs net score payout


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In your event, a low handicapper player has two ways to win. . .gross and net, and a high handicap player has only one way to win. And the LOW handicap players are complaining?

 

In my experience, low handicap players have a hard time adjusting to the mentality of "club golf". Correctly handicapped "club golf" is intended to be an event where all participants have a roughly equal chance of winning on any given day. Better players have statistically a slight advantage (but they never see it this way). The problem is that low handicap golfers - who have invested a ton of time and effort in being as good as they are - have a really hard time mentally "getting" that when they walk into a handicapped event, the whole intent is that all of that time and effort is moot. They're competing on generally equal footing with everybody else.

 

They look across the 25 guys, and say: "I'm clearly one of the best three golfers here, if I don't win once every three or four weeks, it's totally unfair!" When in reality, they're only supposed to have about a 4.2% chance of winning.

 

In fairness, most adult sports (running, triathlon, etc.) are unhandicapped (except in broad age / competence flights), so it seems "normal" for them to expect that they would win a lot. And realistically, if they just considered the Gross to be the competition, they would win a lot and satisfy their expectations...

 

 

so you feel it fair that the folks who never work on their game consistantly best the guys who have dedicsted alot of time to perfecting theirs? seems a bit like participation trophies to me.... i stop agreeing with that at age 10..... the system is grossly flawed.... dont believe me ? try entering a handicapped match play event.... if you are a 5 or better it will make you see red...... you can shoot your handicap and still get beat handily ....

 

If the handicapping is done appropriately, yes, I think it's perfectly reasonable that everybody has roughly the same chance of winning, regardless of how much time they put in. That's the structure of the competition.

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Current breakdown of handicaps in our group:

Scratch - 0

1 - 0

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 2

5 - 1

6 - 0

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 0

10 - 2

11 - 2

12 - 2

13 - 3

14 - 2

15 - 3

16 - 1

17 - 2

18+ - 18

 

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Current breakdown of handicaps in our group:

Scratch - 0

1 - 0

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 2

5 - 1

6 - 0

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 0

10 - 2

11 - 2

12 - 2

13 - 3

14 - 2

15 - 3

16 - 1

17 - 2

18+ - 18

 

First, 20-25 players is the ideal number in the usga system for it to be fair to all players regardless of hcp;

Your current structure massively favors low hcps in the long run, as only a few are in the gross, and the tighter scoring distributions of low hcps mean they actually have the edge for the lower placing in net;

If you have enough stats (and confidence intervals) to suggest otherwise, then sort out the hcps of the sandbaggers!

 

There shouldn't be even 1 gross prize, imo; nor should there just be 8-10 net prizes, as this also favors low hcps

 

My suggestion, which you might actually like, is to have just 1 overall net prize; split the players into 3 groups based on hcp, then have a further 2 or 3 net prizes per flight;

With 25 entries, This gives everybody about a 4% chance of the overall net, and also a 2 or 3 / 8 chance of a further net prize per flight;

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Current breakdown of handicaps in our group:

Scratch - 0

1 - 0

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 2

5 - 1

6 - 0

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 0

10 - 2

11 - 2

12 - 2

13 - 3

14 - 2

15 - 3

16 - 1

17 - 2

18+ - 18

 

First, 20-25 players is the ideal number in the usga system for it to be fair to all players regardless of hcp;

Your current structure massively favors low hcps in the long run, as only a few are in the gross, and the tighter scoring distributions of low hcps mean they actually have the edge for the lower placing in net;

If you have enough stats (and confidence intervals) to suggest otherwise, then sort out the hcps of the sandbaggers!

 

There shouldn't be even 1 gross prize, imo; nor should there just be 8-10 net prizes, as this also favors low hcps

 

My suggestion, which you might actually like, is to have just 1 overall net prize; split the players into 3 groups based on hcp, then have a further 2 or 3 net prizes per flight;

With 25 entries, This gives everybody about a 4% chance of the overall net, and also a 2 or 3 / 8 chance of a further net prize per flight;

 

 

being that you are from the UK i can understand your logic...(meaning your handicap as i understand it is based on T scores entered by the tournament comitte..) etc BUT the US handicap system doesnt really work that way.... you cannot assume there arent sandbaggers.... there are ALWAYS ar least 1-2 in any 25 player group...

 

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Current breakdown of handicaps in our group:

Scratch - 0

1 - 0

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 2

5 - 1

6 - 0

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 0

10 - 2

11 - 2

12 - 2

13 - 3

14 - 2

15 - 3

16 - 1

17 - 2

18+ - 18

Based on that the 17+ should win net about half the time. They have just about half the players. Three players will win the gross most of the time. The payout seems fair to me.

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Current breakdown of handicaps in our group:

Scratch - 0

1 - 0

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 2

5 - 1

6 - 0

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 0

10 - 2

11 - 2

12 - 2

13 - 3

14 - 2

15 - 3

16 - 1

17 - 2

18+ - 18

 

First, 20-25 players is the ideal number in the usga system for it to be fair to all players regardless of hcp;

Your current structure massively favors low hcps in the long run, as only a few are in the gross, and the tighter scoring distributions of low hcps mean they actually have the edge for the lower placing in net;

If you have enough stats (and confidence intervals) to suggest otherwise, then sort out the hcps of the sandbaggers!

 

There shouldn't be even 1 gross prize, imo; nor should there just be 8-10 net prizes, as this also favors low hcps

 

My suggestion, which you might actually like, is to have just 1 overall net prize; split the players into 3 groups based on hcp, then have a further 2 or 3 net prizes per flight;

With 25 entries, This gives everybody about a 4% chance of the overall net, and also a 2 or 3 / 8 chance of a further net prize per flight;

 

There should always be a gross prize. Shooting the lowest actual number should always count for something.

 

And there is no way the low cappers have an edge in for the net prizes. 18 guys over 18, at least a couple are going under (sometimes way under) their cap every time out.

 

However, I do think the 4 net, 2 gross is ok. I would love to realistically have only four or five guys to have to beat each time out.


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Current breakdown of handicaps in our group:

Scratch - 0

1 - 0

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 2

5 - 1

6 - 0

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 0

10 - 2

11 - 2

12 - 2

13 - 3

14 - 2

15 - 3

16 - 1

17 - 2

18+ - 18

Based on that the 17+ should win net about half the time. They have just about half the players. Three players will win the gross most of the time. The payout seems fair to me.

 

Totally agree.

 

Given the breakdown I would guess that with everybody present, 2 gross and 7-8 net prizes is more than generous. Frankly I would stick with the 2 gross and only make 4 or 5 nets and make the prizes a bit more "worth it" (although I don't remember if the OP said whether or not a guy can win more than 1 prize). If so, I'd recommend stopping that. 1 player can only win 1 prize.

 

I guess net-net (or would that be gross-gross :lol: ) I'd think that 10 prizes for 24-28 guys is almost akin to handing out participation trophies. :D

 

I'd say realistically, with all players present, the 10+ will almost never have the best gross score. 2nd best gross ? Hmmmm,,,,,, maybe every once-in-a-while. That makes 2 low gross prizes for about 10 guys (full field - even better when some of those under 10s aren't there). That's pretty good odds for the low handicappers - I'd take 'em any day. ;)

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I think your club is doing it just right. Any club willing to put a gross payout for a net game is showing that it values low HCP golfers. Considering everyone (including the low HCPs) gets to use HCP in the net, any gross payout is pure respect for the best round. Kudos to your club! It does kind of suck when you shoot a good round and don't stand a chance in gross or net, but that's golf...

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Current breakdown of handicaps in our group:

Scratch - 0

1 - 0

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 2

5 - 1

6 - 0

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 0

10 - 2

11 - 2

12 - 2

13 - 3

14 - 2

15 - 3

16 - 1

17 - 2

18+ - 18

 

First, 20-25 players is the ideal number in the usga system for it to be fair to all players regardless of hcp;

Your current structure massively favors low hcps in the long run, as only a few are in the gross, and the tighter scoring distributions of low hcps mean they actually have the edge for the lower placing in net;

If you have enough stats (and confidence intervals) to suggest otherwise, then sort out the hcps of the sandbaggers!

 

There shouldn't be even 1 gross prize, imo; nor should there just be 8-10 net prizes, as this also favors low hcps

 

My suggestion, which you might actually like, is to have just 1 overall net prize; split the players into 3 groups based on hcp, then have a further 2 or 3 net prizes per flight;

With 25 entries, This gives everybody about a 4% chance of the overall net, and also a 2 or 3 / 8 chance of a further net prize per flight;

 

 

being that you are from the UK i can understand your logic...(meaning your handicap as i understand it is based on T scores entered by the tournament comitte..) etc BUT the US handicap system doesnt really work that way.... you cannot assume there arent sandbaggers.... there are ALWAYS ar least 1-2 in any 25 player group...

 

Surely the starting point should not be " there's one or two sandbagger so we will bias it in favour of low hcps" - what message does that give to the honest (majority) of high hcps?

Why not create a "society usga hcp " for each player using the existing hcp system. If anyone has a real usga hcp which is lower use that on the day instead. That should eliminate any sandbaggers

 

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Current breakdown of handicaps in our group:

Scratch - 0

1 - 0

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 2

5 - 1

6 - 0

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 0

10 - 2

11 - 2

12 - 2

13 - 3

14 - 2

15 - 3

16 - 1

17 - 2

18+ - 18

 

First, 20-25 players is the ideal number in the usga system for it to be fair to all players regardless of hcp;

Your current structure massively favors low hcps in the long run, as only a few are in the gross, and the tighter scoring distributions of low hcps mean they actually have the edge for the lower placing in net;

If you have enough stats (and confidence intervals) to suggest otherwise, then sort out the hcps of the sandbaggers!

 

There shouldn't be even 1 gross prize, imo; nor should there just be 8-10 net prizes, as this also favors low hcps

 

My suggestion, which you might actually like, is to have just 1 overall net prize; split the players into 3 groups based on hcp, then have a further 2 or 3 net prizes per flight;

With 25 entries, This gives everybody about a 4% chance of the overall net, and also a 2 or 3 / 8 chance of a further net prize per flight;

 

There should always be a gross prize. Shooting the lowest actual number should always count for something.

 

And there is no way the low cappers have an edge in for the net prizes. 18 guys over 18, at least a couple are going under (sometimes way under) their cap every time out.

 

However, I do think the 4 net, 2 gross is ok. I would love to realistically have only four or five guys to have to beat each time out.

The edge is not in the first couple net prizes ( which everyone including the low hcps have a fair shot at) , but the ones lower down, because of the tighter scoring of low hcps, they will fill the majority of these, giving them the long term edge - that's why net flights is fairer . The payouts I suggested is actually what a lot of uk clubs currently do

 

There's nothing wrong in having a best gross prize , but most of the field will never have a shot at it

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I should have clarified a couple of things:

You can either win gross or net, not both.

 

A lot of our mid HC guys have been mid HCers for ages, and their HCs aren't changing anytime soon. So they might shoot 85, or 76. It's kind of a crap shoot in that regards.

 

I don't mind a high HC winning net, it's obviously there for a reason. But me as a 5 HC, if I don't shoot near my HC I probably won't win gross, and if I shoot an 81, there's no way in hell im winning anything in the net category either.

 

 

 

If you shoot 81 you don't deserve to win anything!

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Is there a high handicapper that wins regularly?

Most of our high handicaps hat play on games either don't care about winning and just want to play or care about winning and are disgusted with their inability to hold it together. No one wins regularly.

They generallly don't complain about not winning

 

 

The lower handicaps complain about not winning. Even though they win more often individually,but each person still wins relatively infrequently.

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