Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[MtlJeff]

I don't even remember the original criteria, this thread was started while Bobby Jones was still _building_ Augusta.

 

I've been saying the same thing a few times though, if it's just tournament conditions (not an actual tournament where guys will choke) than the argument is either that the course is rated 85 or it isn't

[Ferguson]

Yes.

[RobotDoctor]

> @MtlJeff said:

> I don't even remember the original criteria, this thread was started while Bobby Jones was still _building_ Augusta.

>

> I've been saying the same thing a few times though, if it's just tournament conditions (not an actual tournament where guys will choke) than the argument is either that the course is rated 85 or it isn't

 

Original criteria, a scratch playing Sunday Masters tournament tees and conditions for the first time without a caddy and only 1 hour to warm up

 

A completely ludicrous scenario BUT the absolute basis for this thread

[jbole267]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> Out of curiosity, having no real relevance in this discussion, how many people who believe a scratch can score 85 or less under the criteria ever stepped foot on Augusta National Golf Club? Before I went to the Masters (Monday 2015) I would have been in the yes camp because I thought I knew the course so well after watching three decades plus of Masters coverage on TV. After stepping foot on the course in pre-Masters tournament condition (albeit very close to tournament conditions) I believe under the criteria no. Many of the greens are more severe than how TV depicts. The course is steeper and more undulating that TV shows. While Augusta National Golf Club has wide fairways, being on the wrong side of the fairway makes some approaches very, very tricky. Miss a target on a few greens by a matter of 5-10 feet and the result will be not ideal. If the scratch has a poor putting round I doubt they break 90. The the scratch doesn't have an exceptional short game then they're already behind the 8 ball. If the scratch doesn't have excellent distance control or they cannot generate spin to hold the greens then absolutely no way they break 85. It's not to say some scratch player out there doesn't possess these skills but if they do I would believe they are a + handicap, not just scratch. I wouldn't say a scratch definitively cannot break 85 but I would take that bet any day, **under the original criteria**.

 

I have been mostly an observer here and refrained from commenting, however, I don't think the difference between a solid real scratch golfer and a professional golfer is 20 shots, even without seeing the course and being Sunday conditions....

 

I think 100% it can be done.

[heavy_hitter]

Yes.

 

I think I have answered before No. After watching the woman play at the course and score well, most definitely think a scratch golfer will break 85. AGNC has gotten easier over the years.

[Shilgy]

> @heavy_hitter said:

> Yes.

>

> I think I have answered before No. After watching the woman play at the course and score well, most definitely think a scratch golfer will break 85. AGNC has gotten easier over the years.

 

I would agree that the Ladies amateur event made folks realize it's still golf. I don't think the course is any easier though, it just lost some of the mystical aura. Yes, a scratch could break 85.

[lowheel]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @heavy_hitter said:

> > Yes.

> >

> > I think I have answered before No. After watching the woman play at the course and score well, most definitely think a scratch golfer will break 85. AGNC has gotten easier over the years.

>

> I would agree that the Ladies amateur event made folks realize it's still golf. I don't think the course is any easier though, it just lost some of the mystical aura. Yes, a scratch could break 85.

 

they played one round there from 6300 yards and they didnt have the greens running at 13+ it was 10.5-11.5. No mystique was lost

[widow-maker]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> Out of curiosity, having no real relevance in this discussion, how many people who believe a scratch can score 85 or less under the criteria ever stepped foot on Augusta National Golf Club? Before I went to the Masters (Monday 2015) I would have been in the yes camp because I thought I knew the course so well after watching three decades plus of Masters coverage on TV. After stepping foot on the course in pre-Masters tournament condition (albeit very close to tournament conditions) I believe under the criteria no. Many of the greens are more severe than how TV depicts. The course is steeper and more undulating that TV shows. While Augusta National Golf Club has wide fairways, being on the wrong side of the fairway makes some approaches very, very tricky. Miss a target on a few greens by a matter of 5-10 feet and the result will be not ideal. If the scratch has a poor putting round I doubt they break 90. The the scratch doesn't have an exceptional short game then they're already behind the 8 ball. If the scratch doesn't have excellent distance control or they cannot generate spin to hold the greens then absolutely no way they break 85. It's not to say some scratch player out there doesn't possess these skills but if they do I would believe they are a + handicap, not just scratch. I wouldn't say a scratch definitively cannot break 85 but I would take that bet any day, **under the original criteria**.

 

I just saw a bunch of amateur women play Augusta with just 1 practice round and they didn't seem to have much trouble with the greens. There are male scratch amateurs around the country who played college golf and would have similar college backgrounds as the women who played. They wouldn't be intimidated and they would adapt to the greens just like the women did. It totally depends on who the amateur player is and what their background in golf is. It's just unrealistic to think that there aren't players who could do it.

[Shilgy]

> @lowheel said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > Yes.

> > >

> > > I think I have answered before No. After watching the woman play at the course and score well, most definitely think a scratch golfer will break 85. AGNC has gotten easier over the years.

> >

> > I would agree that the Ladies amateur event made folks realize it's still golf. I don't think the course is any easier though, it just lost some of the mystical aura. Yes, a scratch could break 85.

>

> they played one round there from 6300 yards and they didnt have the greens running at 13+ it was 10.5-11.5. No mystique was lost

 

Other than on wrx? There were posts about how the women could not break 80 from those tees and would get embarrassed.

 

It is a difficult course. But not some impregnable obstacle to good golf. There is room off the tee and other than a couple holes disaster really is not an issue. I would expect a scratch could scrape it around under 85.

[bogeypro]

Yes

[RobotDoctor]

> @widow-maker said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > Out of curiosity, having no real relevance in this discussion, how many people who believe a scratch can score 85 or less under the criteria ever stepped foot on Augusta National Golf Club? Before I went to the Masters (Monday 2015) I would have been in the yes camp because I thought I knew the course so well after watching three decades plus of Masters coverage on TV. After stepping foot on the course in pre-Masters tournament condition (albeit very close to tournament conditions) I believe under the criteria no. Many of the greens are more severe than how TV depicts. The course is steeper and more undulating that TV shows. While Augusta National Golf Club has wide fairways, being on the wrong side of the fairway makes some approaches very, very tricky. Miss a target on a few greens by a matter of 5-10 feet and the result will be not ideal. If the scratch has a poor putting round I doubt they break 90. The the scratch doesn't have an exceptional short game then they're already behind the 8 ball. If the scratch doesn't have excellent distance control or they cannot generate spin to hold the greens then absolutely no way they break 85. It's not to say some scratch player out there doesn't possess these skills but if they do I would believe they are a + handicap, not just scratch. I wouldn't say a scratch definitively cannot break 85 but I would take that bet any day, **under the original criteria**.

>

> I just saw a bunch of amateur women play Augusta with just 1 practice round and they didn't seem to have much trouble with the greens. There are male scratch amateurs around the country who played college golf and would have similar college backgrounds as the women who played. They wouldn't be intimidated and they would adapt to the greens just like the women did. It totally depends on who the amateur player is and what their background in golf is. It's just unrealistic to think that there aren't players who could do it.

 

Under the ridiculous original criteria, no. Change any part of that and that's a different scenario. The play of the Amateur women is irrelevant since these players did not play under Sunday Masters tournament conditions from Masters tournament tees, without a caddy and never seeing the course. Every woman amateur, even the ladies that didn't make the cut, played a practice round. The green speeds were not Sunday Masters Tournament condition. I have also stated several pages back that change the criteria and a scratch has a chance.

[dpb5031]

> @golfer929 said:

> Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well! Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

 

The one thing not stipulated is if he's playing alone or in a foursome? There's a tremendous amount of valuable information to be gleaned from watching your playing partner's golf balls respond on the greens to pitches, chips, and putts, especially for a scratch player. This would prove invaluable at a place like AN with such severe and fast greens. Unless the wind is howling a true scratch could get it around in less than 85 while playing in a foursome.

 

Similarly, years ago I was lucky enough to get an invite to Pine Valley. In a spirited discussion in the men's grill, several guys from my home club bet me $100 each that I wouldn't break 90 from the back tees. Easiest money I ever made, and I was not as good as a true scratch player.

 

 

[TryAgainPls]

My former teacher was a scratch when he got to play Augusta and he shot 77 with a double on 18. The course he was a scratch on is also extremely difficult. Not Augusta difficult of course, but difficult.

[GolfSRQ]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @golfer929 said:

> > Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well! Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

>

> The one thing not stipulated is if he's playing alone or in a foursome? There's a tremendous amount of valuable information to be gleaned from watching your playing partner's golf balls respond on the greens to pitches, chips, and putts, especially for a scratch player. This would prove invaluable at a place like AN with such severe and fast greens. Unless the wind is howling a true scratch could get it around in less than 85 while playing in a foursome.

>

> Similarly, years ago I was lucky enough to get an invite to Pine Valley. In a spirited discussion in the men's grill, several guys from my home club bet me $100 each that I wouldn't break 90 from the back tees. Easiest money I ever made, and I was not as good as a true scratch player.

 

That is the standard bet at pvgc

 

 

[GolfSRQ]

There is bigger gap between the scratch golfer at your local course and a tour pro than there is between that same scratch golfer and an 18 hdcp

[Shilgy]

> @GolfSRQ said:

> There is bigger gap between the scratch golfer at your local course and a tour pro than there is between that same scratch golfer and an 18 hdcp

 

Perhaps that is true skill wise but certainly not true by average score.

[elwhippy]

We had this discussion after a league match yesterday. Go back 30 years to wound balls, blades and persimmon or small drivers and the answer would be no unless they putted the lights out. Come forward to 2019 and the answer is yes. Modern ball goes further. More playable irons and hybrids mean longer approaches can be hit with more confidence. Other courses greens have got much faster. Add in a local caddie and a Bushnell and I could see a scratch player beating 85. I know local players who have shot par rounds at Lytham. Carnoustie and beaten par round Wentworth and Walton Heath and those are genuine championship venues so they would not shoot 12-15 more at Augusta.

[freddiec]

I think a solid scratch player especially one with a great short game could shoot 85 or better. Chances ?? Maybe 30-40% chance at best. He would really have to be on and avoid too many doubles. In 1996 as a 4 index I shot 76 at Pebble (doubling 18 ) , 1st and only time there. I know Pebble isn’t Augusta and Pebble wasn’t close to US Open conditions and I did have a caddy.

[freddiec]

I think this is a great thread , one thing may not be considered is the heart and sole of a great scratch player who is able to hone in his A game and dig deep. We are talking about a scratch player here. The course is tough, yes, but it’s still a game a scratch is well familiar with. Give a guy a chance to play Augusta a round of a lifetime that guy may very well be so inspired, have his A game and surprise us all. Yeah , I don’t see him shooting a 78, but 85 ? Absolutely possible.

[The General]

These discussions are unbelievable. Of course a scratch could break 85. Those who don’t think so are not low digit handicappers.

[sharkiesj]

> @"The General" said:

> These discussions are unbelievable. Of course a scratch could break 85. Those who don’t think so are not low digit handicappers.

 

This discussion is not about if a scratch can break 85 at Augusta. It’s about a scratch golfer breaking 85 WITH THE OP’S STIPULATIONS.

 

[cdnglf]

> @sharkiesj said:

> > @"The General" said:

> > These discussions are unbelievable. Of course a scratch could break 85. Those who don’t think so are not low digit handicappers.

>

> This discussion is not about if a scratch can break 85 at Augusta. It’s about a scratch golfer breaking 85 WITH THE OP’S STIPULATIONS.

>

 

If you believe in the course rating system, the answer is an obvious yes.

[RobotDoctor]

> @sharkiesj said:

> > @"The General" said:

> > These discussions are unbelievable. Of course a scratch could break 85. Those who don’t think so are not low digit handicappers.

>

> This discussion is not about if a scratch can break 85 at Augusta. It’s about a scratch golfer breaking 85 WITH THE OP’S STIPULATIONS.

>

 

The scratch would have to be mentally tough. How do they rebound from a bad break, back kick or bounce, a bad score on a hole. This course will wear on the golfer. A mentally weak golfer will be devoured unless everything goes right. Come on, this is Sunday Masters tournament conditions without a caddy to calm down nerves, instill confidence, verify lines, etc. I know so many examples of a scratch golfer playing a course that's 6,600 yards, or 7,000 yards. Whatever. Keep in mind ANGC is 7,600. What do you think the scratch would do on #5. 495 yard par 5 to a tough green? 300 yard drive still leaves a long iron into it. Most scratch players don't hit too many approaches into greens with a 3 and 4 iron to pin placements that require a 10 - 15 foot landing area to get a reasonable birdie putt. That's the difficulty most of the people just aren't getting. Absolute direction and distance control. 13 is a side hill lie unless you really tempt Rae's Creek. Only flat lie on 13. How many scratch can hit a hybrid or long iron from a ball 6 inches above your feet to 13. 6 inches above your feet to hit a 180 to 200 yard shot over a creek? Sounds was real easy. Now we're starting to understand the difficulty of this track. Now Sunday Masters tournament conditions where the greens are 14 On the stimp? Good luck.

[golfandfishing]

“Keep in mind ANGC is 7,600.”

 

Keep in mind this is incorrect.

[Shilgy]

They can play for bogey on 5. Heck they can play for 12 bogeys! Any scratch with his salt can break 85 if that is his goal. If he tries to shoot 65 he might struggle but decent course management breaks 85.

[RobotDoctor]

> @golfandfishing said:

> “Keep in mind ANGC is 7,600.”

>

> Keep in mind this is incorrect.

 

You're right. Officially 7,475. Hole #5 is listed at 495 but one day played at 505. Can we agree the course can be lengthened to 7,500?

[RobotDoctor]

> @Shilgy said:

> They can play for bogey on 5. Heck they can play for 12 bogeys! Any scratch with his salt can break 85 if that is his goal. If he tries to shoot 65 he might struggle but decent course management breaks 85.

 

 

Ok, keep in mind one of the best players in the game and eventual 2019 winner played bogey for all 4 rounds. So you're telling me a scratch can be as good as Tiger Woods on this hole? I'm not buying it.

[cdnglf]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > They can play for bogey on 5. Heck they can play for 12 bogeys! Any scratch with his salt can break 85 if that is his goal. If he tries to shoot 65 he might struggle but decent course management breaks 85.

>

>

> Ok, keep in mind one of the best players in the game and eventual 2019 winner played bogey for all 4 rounds. So you're telling me a scratch can be as good as Tiger Woods on this hole? I'm not buying it.

 

 

 

It is almost as if you have no statistics training at all.

[RobotDoctor]

And for all those who keep mentioning the course rating, if a course rating is 78 then that's what the scratch scores as "par". That means he can only be 7 over for the round. Isn't that how a course rating system works? If so, there is absolutely no chance a scratch playing ANGC for the first time from Masters tournament conditions cards and actual 79 (7 over). No chance.

 

This whole thread has crossed over into the land of what ifs. So what if I had actually bought 1,000 shares of Microsoft stock as I had planned to at the IPO? What if I never injured my right eye when I was being scouted in baseball at the end of my junior year. What if, what if, what if.

[Shilgy]

Where the heck do you get the real number is 79? Yes, for a scratch to play to his handicap the number is 78 but that has nothing to do with the bet. The scratch needs to shoot +12(84) or lower. That's it.

Hole number 5 might be a really difficult par 4 but it would be a really easy par 5. Which is how our imaginary scratch should play it.