Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[pinhigh27]

10 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

There seem to be a few people who cant separate an absolute zero percent chance from a 5%-10% chance.......

 

I think its absolutely foolish to think if you threw 100 scratch golfers on the course that not one of them would have a good day and break 85....

Absolutely, but there is also a difference between saying a couple would probably do it and like 20 or more would. 

 

I'd say 5 max /100 personally. I think vast majority won't come close and would get wrecked short game wise like they've never experienced before. 

[isaacbm]

4 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

 

I wonder how many amateur golfers have played greens 13 or a bit faster on the stimpmeter and on sloping greens?  I certainly have not.  The fastest greens I have played are about 11 to maybe 11.5.  I can only imagine standing over a 4-5 foot put with a left to right break on greens that are 13 needing to make par and hoping if I miss I don't roll farther away than I am now.

That is, yet, another challenge facing someone playing Sunday Masters tournament condition golf.

I personally have played over 300 4 day tournaments.  At least 30-40 of them had greens running that fast.   

 

This is my whole thing:  Who are all of these "Scratch" golfers that have never played tournaments?  Have never seen fast greens?  Have never played under

pressure?  Who somehow have 45 putts?  Can someone please point out a "scratch" golfer to me that is a hack?  I've never seen one. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by isaacbm
exaggerating... ;)

[BNGL]

4 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

 

I wonder how many amateur golfers have played greens 13 or a bit faster on the stimpmeter and on sloping greens?  I certainly have not.  The fastest greens I have played are about 11 to maybe 11.5.  I can only imagine standing over a 4-5 foot put with a left to right break on greens that are 13 needing to make par and hoping if I miss I don't roll farther away than I am now.

That is, yet, another challenge facing someone playing Sunday Masters tournament condition golf.

A lot I’d reckon especially in winter in south Florida (or peak season in any hotspot golf location). Club I was a member of in Jupiter area had 50 or so that were scratch players or better, not counting Tour pros. The club I worked was routinely 12 plus, and that catered to octogenarians and their parents. 

 

Greens at ANGC aren’t as fast not as uniform as people think. They’re quick but they’re quick because of the slopes, not because of the sheer speed of the putting surface. When I say uniform I mean consistent green speeds, some are slower and some are faster due to the slopes in the greens. 

[oikos1]

15 hours ago, CasualLie said:

Oh...the Els 6-putt video is irrelevant.  His putting that year was absolutely atrocious.

Lol.  You don't think that is going to happen to a bunch of scratch golfers who have never seen the course before?  Maybe not six putts on one green, but I bet at least 3-4 three putts or worse for the day.

[isaacbm]

Oikos1

 

So A player can have one triple, 2 doubles, and 6 bogies with no birdies and still shoot 85.  Lets say that 5 of those over par holes include 

3-putts.  Doesn't seem that hard when broken down that way...  

 

Lets say he turns the triple into a double and accidentally makes a birdie.  Now he can have 7 3-putts and still do it. 

For reference, I've had one 4 putt in a tournament in 35 years.

[CasualLie]

6 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  You don't think that is going to happen to a bunch of scratch golfers who have never seen the course before?  Maybe not six putts on one green, but I bet at least 3-4 three putts or worse for the day.

 

Probably...but I am going 5 putts as max!  If Phil can 5-putt, anyone has that in them.  I just remember Els that year before Masters and man...I don't know what it was but he was really struggling on all greens.

 

I'm happy to bet alongside militant robot that as per terms of OP, your typical scratch golfer is likely not going to break 85.  But the OP's terms are silly.  Who plays a course like that for the first time without a caddy with some knowledge?  What's the point?

 

First time I played Pebble I got a caddy just to soak up the experience and that guy was good at reading putts it easily saved me 5+ strokes.  He helped a little bit on yardages off the tee and ideal lines to minimize risk, but it is not like I would have been in big trouble without him.  IIRC it made the most difference in yardage adjustment on the par 3s and ideal line off 8th tee.

 

I've watched Masters enough to know the lines off every hole at Augusta, it does not mean I will hit them!  But the caddy can make a big difference on the greens.

[Bye]

Which holes are you making a par on? 
 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/04/06/masters-2021-survey-augusta-national-golf-club-best-hardest-holes/

 

Quite a few shots don’t even get mentioned. 6 looked tough on Sunday. Second in to 10 or 11. 
 

 

[widow-maker]

7 hours ago, isaacbm said:

Oikos1

 

So A player can have one triple, 2 doubles, and 6 bogies with no birdies and still shoot 85.  Lets say that 5 of those over par holes include 

3-putts.  Doesn't seem that hard when broken down that way...  

 

Lets say he turns the triple into a double and accidentally makes a birdie.  Now he can have 7 3-putts and still do it. 

For reference, I've had one 4 putt in a tournament in 35 years.

Most people don't think like you think because they don't play like you play.  They don't understand that you're not going to be intimidated like they're intimidated just thinking about it.  

 

It was a long time ago but the first time I played Oakland Hills was from the tips and I made 4 birdies and shot 76.  Carried my own bag because it was on a Monday when the Club was pretty much closed to members.  At the time I was probably around a 2 handicap but sometimes stuff happens and you get it going.  I can guarantee you that Oakland Hills greens are just as tough as Augusta's(Hogan called Oakland Hills a monster, not Augusta), but I was working at Detroit Golf Club at the time and the greens there were just as fast as Oakland Hills albeit not as severe with the slopes.  But, I wasn't intimidated by the greens at all because speedwise they putted just like what I was used to for the most part.  

 

It's a tough task because of the parameters set up by the OP but to say that no scratch could do it is just ridiculous.  85 is 13 over par.  Come on now.

[Obee]

On 4/14/2021 at 8:06 AM, PixlPutterman said:

There seem to be a few people who cant separate an absolute zero percent chance from a 5%-10% chance.......

 

I think its absolutely foolish to think if you threw 100 scratch golfers on the course that not one of them would have a good day and break 85....

It would be far more than 1. 

[Obee]

This thread has gone of the rails.

[James the Hogan Fan]

On 4/15/2021 at 5:25 AM, isaacbm said:

I personally have played over 300 4 day tournaments.  At least 30-40 of them had greens running that fast.   

 

This is my whole thing:  Who are all of these "Scratch" golfers that have never played tournaments?  Have never seen fast greens?  Have never played under

pressure?  Who somehow have 45 putts?  Can someone please point out a "scratch" golfer to me that is a hack?  I've never seen one. 

 

I am one of those "scratch" golfers. How? I'm a 6. I'm nowhere near scratch. The round of my life, a 74, is a ho-hum disappointment for you. But to the 15, the 20, the 30 caps who I play with, when I hit a 510 yard par 5 in two and 2-putt for birdie en route to an 81 they ask me when I'm going pro. And I tell them that they are closer to me than I am to Tiger.

 

People have this idea that the difference between scratch and a 6 is a couple more greens hit and a couple less three putts. And yeah it is for 1 round. But to do it 8/20 rounds. Haha nope.

 

The so-called "scratch" player you describe is the 5 and above cap's perception of what scratch is; a few strokes better than their own game but otherwise unchanged. 

[bladehunter]

On 4/14/2021 at 11:24 AM, MtlJeff said:

 

I played Torrey Pines a few years back from the ~ 6800yd tees, a few weeks before the PGA tournament there so the rough was really bad... with a full bag of new clubs, hit 1 fairway the whole day (sadly, that is true) and generally didn't play well and shot 81. I was a 1.8 at the time and hadn't played golf in 2 months due to living in Canada...That same day another WRX member shot 73 as a 0, and a member who was a + 0.6 or something shot 69. 

 

Again, it's not Augusta...But a fairly tough course, and we putted everything out etc...

 

The other thing is that you can make birdies. You said it well, there's no lions roaming the course or traps on the greens that will rip off your leg. Holes like #2, #13, #15 etc...it's not like you'll never have a birdie chance. You could even make 1 or 2. 

 

I don't get this thread at all. If you put 10 players on the course a few of them might not break 85, but many would. The slope/rating would back this up and there's numerous anecdotes in this very thread of people who have literally played the course

Excellent point Jeff.  No lions indeed.  
 

 

what we are reading here is simply the split between traveling scratch players and those who aren’t.  I’ll get flames for saying that.  But.  If fear plays a part in your golf game. Then you’re not anywhere near an actual scratch player. Golf courses aren’t scary.  None of them.  

[RobotDoctor]

16 hours ago, CasualLie said:

 

Probably...but I am going 5 putts as max!  If Phil can 5-putt, anyone has that in them.  I just remember Els that year before Masters and man...I don't know what it was but he was really struggling on all greens.

 

I'm happy to bet alongside militant robot that as per terms of OP, your typical scratch golfer is likely not going to break 85.  But the OP's terms are silly.  Who plays a course like that for the first time without a caddy with some knowledge?  What's the point?

 

First time I played Pebble I got a caddy just to soak up the experience and that guy was good at reading putts it easily saved me 5+ strokes.  He helped a little bit on yardages off the tee and ideal lines to minimize risk, but it is not like I would have been in big trouble without him.  IIRC it made the most difference in yardage adjustment on the par 3s and ideal line off 8th tee.

 

I've watched Masters enough to know the lines off every hole at Augusta, it does not mean I will hit them!  But the caddy can make a big difference on the greens.

 

Militant?  😮😟

[UncleJohn’sBand]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Excellent point Jeff.  No lions indeed.  
 

 

what we are reading here is simply the split between traveling scratch players and those who aren’t.  I’ll get flames for saying that.  But.  If fear plays a part in your golf game. Then you’re not anywhere near an actual scratch player. Golf courses aren’t scary.  None of them.  

I think we can end the thread on this note.

 

A scratch player at home aint a scratch on the road. And a scratch on the road is a sandbagger. 

 

 

[oikos1]

21 hours ago, isaacbm said:

Oikos1

 

So A player can have one triple, 2 doubles, and 6 bogies with no birdies and still shoot 85.  Lets say that 5 of those over par holes include 

3-putts.  Doesn't seem that hard when broken down that way...  

 

Lets say he turns the triple into a double and accidentally makes a birdie.  Now he can have 7 3-putts and still do it. 

For reference, I've had one 4 putt in a tournament in 35 years.

I've already conceded, and it seems to be the general consensus, a scratch golfer could do it.  It would be more interesting to see how many random scratches out of 100 could do it. 

 

The real issue is "under Sunday tournament conditions".  How exactly do you recreate that without having a "scratch" golfer in the field on a Sunday at the Masters? 

 

I have no issue believing a seasoned tournament scratch could break 85 from the tips on any given day playing a casual round with an Augusta caddy.  And really that is probably as close to legitimate, real parameters as you're going to get.

[oikos1]

So here we have highly skilled professional/am golfers, with caddies, after already playing two rounds of tournament condition golf throwing up scores in the mid 80's.  Yet under the OP's original parameters, a "scratch" shows up at Augusta, has one hour to warm up and plays the course without walking it beforehand, from the tips, Sunday tournament conditions, no caddy and breaks 85.

 

I'm starting to think some of the "scratches" in this thread think they could do it.  I like their attitude! 😀

 

 

Worst Masters Scores By a Golfer After Making the Cut

(Cut after two rounds instituted in 1957)
87 - Calvin Peete, third round, 1983
86 - Tommy Aaron, third round, 2000
86 - Jodie Mudd, fourth round, 1983
86 - Lindy Miller, fourth round, 1979
85 - Kevin Na, third round, 2016
85 - a-Charlie Coe, third round, 1966
84 - Aaron Oberholser, third round, 2007
84 - Ben Crenshaw, third round, 2007
84 - John Huston, third round, 1993
84 - T.C. Chen, fourth round, 1989
84 - a-Joe Carr, fourth round, 1967
84 - Stephen Opperman, fourth round, 1966
84 - Luis Silverio, fourth round, 1966
84 - Lew Worsham, fourth round, 1960

https://www.liveabout.com/worst-scores-in-masters-tournament-history-1564561

Edited April 16, 2021 by oikos1

[bladehunter]

43 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

So here we have highly skilled professional/am golfers, with caddies, after already playing two rounds of tournament condition golf throwing up scores in the mid 80's.  Yet under the OP's original parameters, a "scratch" shows up at Augusta, has one hour to warm up and plays the course without walking it beforehand, from the tips, Sunday tournament conditions, no caddy and breaks 85.

 

I'm starting to think some of the "scratches" in this thread think they could do it.  I like their attitude! 😀

 

 

Worst Masters Scores By a Golfer After Making the Cut

(Cut after two rounds instituted in 1957)
87 - Calvin Peete, third round, 1983
86 - Tommy Aaron, third round, 2000
86 - Jodie Mudd, fourth round, 1983
86 - Lindy Miller, fourth round, 1979
85 - Kevin Na, third round, 2016
85 - a-Charlie Coe, third round, 1966
84 - Aaron Oberholser, third round, 2007
84 - Ben Crenshaw, third round, 2007
84 - John Huston, third round, 1993
84 - T.C. Chen, fourth round, 1989
84 - a-Joe Carr, fourth round, 1967
84 - Stephen Opperman, fourth round, 1966
84 - Luis Silverio, fourth round, 1966
84 - Lew Worsham, fourth round, 1960

https://www.liveabout.com/worst-scores-in-masters-tournament-history-1564561

But that’s actually going to be more the exception than a real traveling scratch player shooting under 80.  How many thousand rounds did it take to produce the stats you posted ?  I don’t know. But it’s a lot.  
 

and yes. The attitude is absolutely arrogant.  I’ve never met a player at scratch or beyond that isn’t.  It’s part of the deal.  
 

edit.  This isn’t me attacking the question.  It’s just that I think once you get to a real 0.0 and  beyond , the propensity to shoot a high round still is there. It’s just minimized.  After all. Pros on TV are humans.  Some give them god like status. But trust me. They still poop everyday . Nothing really special about them in my opinion outside of the knack to turn 76 into 71 with 99 % success rate.  This is a mental skill based on a ton of things. Not a motor skill.  

Edited April 16, 2021 by bladehunter

[Obee]

45 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

So here we have highly skilled professional/am golfers, with caddies, after already playing two rounds of tournament condition golf throwing up scores in the mid 80's.  Yet under the OP's original parameters, a "scratch" shows up at Augusta, has one hour to warm up and plays the course without walking it beforehand, from the tips, Sunday tournament conditions, no caddy and breaks 85.

 

I'm starting to think some of the "scratches" in this thread think they could do it.  I like their attitude! 😀

 

 

Worst Masters Scores By a Golfer After Making the Cut

(Cut after two rounds instituted in 1957)
87 - Calvin Peete, third round, 1983
86 - Tommy Aaron, third round, 2000
86 - Jodie Mudd, fourth round, 1983
86 - Lindy Miller, fourth round, 1979
85 - Kevin Na, third round, 2016
85 - a-Charlie Coe, third round, 1966
84 - Aaron Oberholser, third round, 2007
84 - Ben Crenshaw, third round, 2007
84 - John Huston, third round, 1993
84 - T.C. Chen, fourth round, 1989
84 - a-Joe Carr, fourth round, 1967
84 - Stephen Opperman, fourth round, 1966
84 - Luis Silverio, fourth round, 1966
84 - Lew Worsham, fourth round, 1960

https://www.liveabout.com/worst-scores-in-masters-tournament-history-1564561

 

Yup. And the worst scores of our mythical "scratch golfer" would be 10 to 15 more than that. This is not that difficult, guys.

[Bye]

With respect, playing a course on a day prior to the tournament is not the same thing. 
 

And if you can stand on the first tee in those conditions without any trepidation, then you are not human.

 

There is a video on this link if you scroll down taking about the conditions at the Masters.
 

https://golf.com/news/worst-score-every-hole-masters-history/

 

 

[CasualLie]

2 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

 

Militant?  😮😟

 

Just playing with you 😉. Come on now, you do have a lot of posts sticking to the strict terms of the OP and pretty emphatic a scratch has no chance.  But I hear ya.  Too many unknowns; i.e.  is it a really solid scratch player with the occasional round under par, or like some who posted here averaging 75 on tough courses and listed as scratch?

 

But while I am mostly on your side here, I am not liking your side of your bet.  I would gladly put up $1K vs your $10K that at least 1 of 100 scratch golfers breaks 85 under the terms of the OP's scenario.  I would even spot you one golfer so you are only betting against 99 as I am going to take a spot and I am not scratch!  Haha!  Who knows, maybe I get lucky!  I can LPGA it around ok bunting driver and hitting hybrids, very confident in my putting, so it would just come down to the chipping/pitching so that's a lot of entertainment!

 

Too bad we can't get that on TV!  This scenario with even 50 scratch golfers could make for some hilarious watching!

 

 

 

 

[isaacbm]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

So here we have highly skilled professional/am golfers, with caddies, after already playing two rounds of tournament condition golf throwing up scores in the mid 80's.  Yet under the OP's original parameters, a "scratch" shows up at Augusta, has one hour to warm up and plays the course without walking it beforehand, from the tips, Sunday tournament conditions, no caddy and breaks 85.

 

I'm starting to think some of the "scratches" in this thread think they could do it.  I like their attitude! 😀

 

 

Worst Masters Scores By a Golfer After Making the Cut

(Cut after two rounds instituted in 1957)
87 - Calvin Peete, third round, 1983
86 - Tommy Aaron, third round, 2000
86 - Jodie Mudd, fourth round, 1983
86 - Lindy Miller, fourth round, 1979
85 - Kevin Na, third round, 2016
85 - a-Charlie Coe, third round, 1966
84 - Aaron Oberholser, third round, 2007
84 - Ben Crenshaw, third round, 2007
84 - John Huston, third round, 1993
84 - T.C. Chen, fourth round, 1989
84 - a-Joe Carr, fourth round, 1967
84 - Stephen Opperman, fourth round, 1966
84 - Luis Silverio, fourth round, 1966
84 - Lew Worsham, fourth round, 1960

https://www.liveabout.com/worst-scores-in-masters-tournament-history-1564561

Oh absolutely. Again if you had 100 scratches in a one day event the day after the Masters, there’s a good chance that a few of them might shoot 100.

 

But certainly not all of them.  Just look at the tournament results of any amateur event around the world. You have the guys playing close to their best that shoot under par and the guys playing close to their  worst that week that missed the cut and maybe shoot over 170 for 2 days. 

you don’t have 100 players shoot exactly 2 over the course rating for two days ( their average score over a season)

 

I have yet to see a 100 man playoff...

 

The point is there’s a range. And the idea that the range would start ABOVE  85 is just unfathomable to me. 

all of the scores you posted above are examples of those players playing their absolute worst. Well a +5 playing his absolute worst is likely 10-15 shots  worse than a zero playing his absolute best. 
 

Their ranges overlap.

 

[isaacbm]

I was just looking at the most difficult courses on tour last year . Augusta ranked fourth. Almost exactly 3 shots harder than the 35th ranked course.

    Winged foot was almost 3 full shots harder than Augusta. But that makes sense because of the rough.  Augusta with Wingfoot rough would be brutal!

 

Serious question: Do the guys that think a scratch couldn’t break 85 at Augusta also think that a scratch wouldn’t be able to break 82 on any golf course on the PGA tour?  
 

[pinhigh27]

16 minutes ago, isaacbm said:

I was just looking at the most difficult courses on tour last year . Augusta ranked fourth. Almost exactly 3 shots harder than the 35th ranked course.

    Winged foot was almost 3 full shots harder than Augusta. But that makes sense because of the rough.  Augusta with Wingfoot rough would be brutal!

 

Serious question: Do the guys that think a scratch couldn’t break 85 at Augusta also think that a scratch wouldn’t be able to break 82 on any golf course on the PGA tour?  
 

I don't think thats a good comparison because the pros can adapt to Augusta much better relatively than a random scratch. I truly think the green contours and stuff would wreck most scratch's short games. 

 

Also you are a very atypical example and an outlier for purposes of this discussion IMO. How you would do is different than how the average joe scratch at a muni would do. 

[Obee]

On 4/16/2021 at 7:06 AM, oikos1 said:

So here we have highly skilled professional/am golfers, with caddies, after already playing two rounds of tournament condition golf throwing up scores in the mid 80's.  Yet under the OP's original parameters, a "scratch" shows up at Augusta, has one hour to warm up and plays the course without walking it beforehand, from the tips, Sunday tournament conditions, no caddy and breaks 85.

 

I'm starting to think some of the "scratches" in this thread think they could do it.  I like their attitude! 😀

 

 

WARNING: LONG, DETAILED RANT!!

 

First off, I am an actual "scratch" golfer. Last year, I peaked as low as +2.0, but my average index for the year was +0.4. I play legit, amateur tournament golf, but like someone (much) earlier in the thread mentioned, so do most actual scratch golfers.

 

But there's the problem: The term "scratch" gets thrown around too loosely. A guy who is a vanity capper who once got his index to 0.4, but who averages a 2.1 is not a scratch golfer. And most guys who don't know a lot of legit, tournament-tested scratch golfers think that guy's a scratch golfer. He's not. And if that same guy mostly plays at his club, and doesn't play in tournaments, that guy isn't even close to a guy like me (and I suck at golf). I play with and around guys like that all the time and, when I'm healthy, they will almost never beat me straight up, playing in the same group. Like virtually never -- especially if there's money on the line or it's a rare tournament that a guy like that enters.

 

Regarding the issue at hand: I don't think I could do it, I know I could (when healthy) I would bet you my home that I (or any older, competitive legitimate scratch golfer could do it given just five tries. Would bet anyone even money I could do it on my first try -- especially with a caddie and a practice round, you know, like the pros whose scores we're comparing get. The "no caddie, no practice round" thing is just silly. But I digress.

 

You doubters are bringing a knife to a gun fight when it comes to this stuff. I've personally played with and against four of the amateurs who have played in the Masters ... and shot in the 70's low 80's (Danny Green, Greg Puga, Tim Hogarth, Kevin Marsh), and I know exactly where my game stacks up against theirs. I also know exactly what I shoot versus what elite Tour pros shoot when we are both playing a very, very difficult golf course with rock hard greens running at 13+.

 

The doubters here are the same ones who where sure when I posed this question that the "scratch golfer" had no chance. Please. It's golf. When healthy, I play 20 tournaments a year. I have played countless rounds of golf on greens 13+. My home course for 10 years had greens that fast, for crying out loud. Augusta's are crazy undulating, for sure, but I'm not going to phocking 5-putt. And I guarantee you I'm going to make some putts.

 

The more I read comments by some of the real doubters on here, the more I'm convinced that one of the main reasons mid-cappers don't get better is because they have absolutely zero concept of the different levels of golf and what it takes to get better and what makes players better at the different levels. It's astonishing, actually.

 

Last thing I'll mention is Jeff Knox. I copy/pasted some of this from the Sawgrass thread:

 

Jeff Knox, an Augusta member, several times has beaten/tied/finished close to whoever he is playing with at the actual Masters as their marker. And that was when he was in his mid-40's! Jeff Knox is not unique as an amateur golfer (other than the fact that he gets to be the marker at The Masters!) Jeff is a very, very good amateur -- one of the better senior ams in the country now that he's 55+ and he was one of the better mid-ams when he was in his 30's and 40's -- but he's one of many players of that level. I compete directly against/with all those guys -- at least regionally here in SoCal. I know exactly how good guys like Casey Boyns, Randy Haag, and Jim Knoll, et al. are. I play against them/have played against them all in tournaments. It's a coin flip between the guys above and a guy like Knox. For reference, Jeff Knox is a +1.2 right now.

 

Yes, Augusta is Knox's home course and I'm sure he knows every crevice. But, again, he was in his mid-40's. and he shot under par when he beat Rory. At ... The Masters. The actual Masters. With crowds and cameras and everything. Now, at 55, he would probably say he'd have to play quite well to shoot a mid-70's round, but that's what ages does. But he's not going to shoot 90 very often, if ever. He's going to shoot 75 to 85, concentrated between 77 and 82. And that's probably selling him a bit short. And we're supposed to believe that a real 0.0 is going to not be able to shoot 84? It's mind-numbing.

 

I am one level below those guys I mentioned, above. Give me 100 rounds at Augusta in Masters shape when I'm healthy, and I'm going to shoot 76 to 92, with my scores concentrated between 80 and 84. And I'm a fat, ridiculously short-hitting competitive amateur scratch golfer nobody. 

 

Or ... I'm delusional. Your choice ....

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Obee
Typo.

[isaacbm]

20 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

I don't think thats a good comparison because the pros can adapt to Augusta much better relatively than a random scratch. I truly think the green contours and stuff would wreck most scratch's short games. 

 

Also you are a very atypical example and an outlier for purposes of this discussion IMO. How you would do is different than how the average joe scratch at a muni would do. 

I may be... but a ton of my friends that are near zero (1-+1) have a ton of tournament experience. Play 8-10 tournaments per year.  All have seen “crazy” greens.  All have played under some degree of pressure. 
 

I think the single biggest deterrent to this challenge has nothing to do with the difficulty of the course.   And certainly not the caddy element.   Guys might just get distracted by  the beauty and wonder of it all.  And not be able to focus because of how giddy they might be.  I think the difficulty is being overstated. 

[Obee]

47 minutes ago, isaacbm said:

I was just looking at the most difficult courses on tour last year . Augusta ranked fourth. Almost exactly 3 shots harder than the 35th ranked course.

    Winged foot was almost 3 full shots harder than Augusta. But that makes sense because of the rough.  Augusta with Wingfoot rough would be brutal!

 

Serious question: Do the guys that think a scratch couldn’t break 85 at Augusta also think that a scratch wouldn’t be able to break 82 on any golf course on the PGA tour?  
 

 

^^^^^THIS

 

Like I said, it's absolutely mind-numbing.

 

Hell I've done it twice in two tries: 74 at TPC Las Colinas the day after the tournament. Same tees. Same pins. 77(?) at Torrey South the day after the tournament. Same tees. Same pins. Good lord.

 

Justin Timberlake(!) shot 88 in U.S. Open conditions when he was like a 5 or 6. Ben Roethlisberger shot 81. He was 3ish.

 

I have played in tournaments with Justin Timberlake. He's a decent golfer. He's not a scratch golfer. He's currently a 4.3.

[bladehunter]

14 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

WARNING: LONG, DETAILED RANT!!

 

First off, I am an actual "scratch" golfer. Last year, I peaked as low as +2.0, but my average index for the year was +0.4. I play legit, amateur tournament golf, but like someone (much) earlier in the thread mentioned, so do most actual scratch golfers.

 

But there's the problem: The term "scratch" gets thrown around too loosely. A guy who is a vanity capper who once got his index to 0.4, but who averages a 2.1 is not a scratch golfer. And most guys who don't know a lot of legit, tournament-tested scratch golfers think that guy's a scratch golfer. He's not. And if that same guy mostly plays at his club, and doesn't play in tournaments, that guy isn't even close to a guy like me (and I suck at golf). I play with and around guys like that all the time and, when I'm healthy, they will almost never beat me straight up, playing in the same group. Like virtually never -- especially if there's money on the line or it's a rare tournament that a guy like that enters.

 

Regarding the issue at hand: I don't think I could do it, I know I could (when healthy) I would bet you my home that I (or any older, competitive legitimate scratch golfer could do it given just five tries. Would bet anyone even money I could do it on my first try -- especially with a caddie and a practice round, you know, like the pros whose scores we're comparing get. The "no caddie, no practice round" thing is just silly. But I digress.

 

You doubters are bringing a knife to a gun fight when it comes to this stuff. I've personally played with and against four of the amateurs who have played in the Masters ... and shot in the 70's (Danny Green, Greg Puga, Tim Hogarth, Kevin Marsh), and I know exactly where my game stacks up against theirs. I also know exactly what I shoot versus what elite Tour pros shoot when we are both playing a very, very difficult golf course with rock hard greens running at 13+.

 

The doubters here are the same ones who where sure when I posed this question that the "scratch golfer" had no chance. Please. It's golf. When healthy, I play 20 tournaments a year. I have played countless rounds of golf on greens 13+. My home course for 10 years had greens that fast, for crying out loud. Augusta's are crazy undulating, for sure, but I'm not going to phocking 5-putt. And I guarantee you I'm going to make some putts.

 

The more I read comments by some of the real doubters on here, the more I'm convinced that one of the main reasons mid-cappers don't get better is because they have absolutely zero concept of the different levels of golf and what it takes to get better and what makes players better at the different levels. It's astonishing, actually.

 

Last thing I'll mention is Jeff Knox. I copy/pasted some of this from the Sawgrass thread:

 

Jeff Knox, an Augusta member, several times has beaten/tied/finished close to whoever he is playing with at the actual Masters as their marker. And that was when he was in his mid-40's! Jeff Knox is not unique as an amateur golfer (other than the fact that he gets to be the marker at The Masters!) Jeff is a very, very good amateur -- one of the better senior ams in the country now that he's 55+ and he was one of the better mid-ams when he was in his 30's and 40's -- but he's one of many players of that level. I compete directly against/with all those guys -- at least regionally here in SoCal. I know exactly how good guys like Robert Funk, Casey Boyns, Randy Haag, and Jim Knoll, et al. are. I play against them/have played against them all in tournaments. It's a coin flip between the guys above and a guy like Knox. For reference, Jeff Knox is a +1.2 right now.

 

Yes, Augusta is Knox's home course and I'm sure he knows every crevice. But, again, he was in his mid-40's. and he shot under par when he beat Rory. At ... The Masters. The actual Masters. With crowds and cameras and everything. Now, at 55, he would probably say he'd have to play quite well to shoot a mid-70's round, but that's what ages does. But he's not going to shoot 90 very often, if ever. He's going to shoot 75 to 85, concentrated between 77 and 82. And that's probably selling him a bit short. And we're supposed to believe that a real 0.0 is going to not be able to shoot 84? It's mind-numbing.

 

I am one level below those guys I mentioned, above. Give me 100 rounds at Augusta in Masters shape when I'm healthy, and I'm going to shoot 76 to 92, with my scores concentrated between 80 and 84. And I'm a fat, ridiculously short-hitting competitive amateur scratch golfer nobody.

 

Or ... I'm delusional. Your choice ....

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  
 

what I’ve come to know in my short time in this game ( relatively ) is that I don’t think like others I’m around.  I very firmly believe that the mental side is very much what separates most real 10 caps from the 1s and so on.  And after reading this thread I think fear , or fight or fight reflex is a huge part.  I have never felt fear on a golf course.  Maybe because I felt real fear in life and feel like golf  and peoples opinions of my swing etc are laughable and not something to fear.  I seem to preform better the more pressure I can find.  Funny enough , pressure is actually hard to find in this game if you’re really looking for it.  As in it takes a big event and a gallery to even come close to ramping me up now.  But I haven’t found any kind of point of diminishing returns on that , yet.    And trash talk ?  It’s welcomed. More you talk the more focused I’ll get.  
 

didnt say that to brag.  My point is.  I’m reading snd understanding why folks don’t improve.  IF ( IF) I stop improving.  That’s the day I will stop playing.  

Edited April 16, 2021 by bladehunter

[pinhigh27]

11 minutes ago, isaacbm said:

I may be... but a ton of my friends that are near zero (1-+1) have a ton of tournament experience. Play 8-10 tournaments per year.  All have seen “crazy” greens.  All have played under some degree of pressure. 
 

I think the single biggest deterrent to this challenge has nothing to do with the difficulty of the course.   And certainly not the caddy element.   Guys might just get distracted by  the beauty and wonder of it all.  And not be able to focus because of how giddy they might be.  I think the difficulty is being overstated. 

I personally think if you put 100 scratch golfers with 50 yard wedges into 3 for example, it would be hilarious and total carnage. I am +2 and played in lots of tournaments (though not as many as you haha) and I have never played greens that I think are as crazy as Augusta would be just from watching the shots they hit. I agree there may be difficulty being overstated and it's hard for us plebs to know without playing there but just seeing the margins they have to miss and how a bad pitch comes back to your feet or rolls off the other side of the green, I can see how they're insane.

 

I also think they likely make it look easier than it is because most of the field has been playing there for years. Those shots where they pitch it into the upslope fringe and dribble it onto the green, like people who go long on 15. That's easy for them but not for most scratch golfers IMO. Those look like easy up and downs for them but could make scratch golfers look really stupid again in my opinion. 

[Obee]

2 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

I personally think if you put 100 scratch golfers with 50 yard wedges into 3 for example, it would be hilarious and total carnage. I am +2 and played in lots of tournaments (though not as many as you haha) and I have never played greens that I think are as crazy as Augusta would be just from watching the shots they hit. I agree there may be difficulty being overstated and it's hard for us plebs to know without playing there but just seeing the margins they have to miss and how a bad pitch comes back to your feet or rolls off the other side of the green, I can see how they're insane.

 

I also think they likely make it look easier than it is because most of the field has been playing there for years. Those shots where they pitch it into the upslope fringe and dribble it onto the green, like people who go long on 15. That's easy for them but not for most scratch golfers IMO. Those look like easy up and downs for them but could make scratch golfers look really stupid again in my opinion. 

 

All of that is true. AND a scratch golfer can shoot 84.

 

Just look at my Timberlake and Roethlisberger examples, above. The debate is over, guys. Truly. When Justin Timberlake shoots 88 at a U.S. Open course in U.S. Open shape, the debate is over.

[Obee]

13 hours ago, ATLgopher said:

 

when ANGC gets officially rated...report back. I’m interested to hear the news

 

That's a bit disingenuous. The course is clearly rateable. We know what the pros shoot there. We know what they shoot at other courses. Augusta is a hard golf course by Tour standards, but it's not even the most difficult course on Tour. Over the years, Torrey In "Normal" shape, from the very back tees, it's probably rated 76.5 to 77.5. In Masters shape, add whatever you think you need to add for firmness and extra speed. That's it. It's not voodoo. My guess is it's 80 to 81 in Masters shape. It sure ain't 100. or 90.