PXG sues Taylor Made

[TheMoneyShot]

I need to buy the 100k PXG package, so that I can play a round with Bob to get the low down on this...

 

I have been waiting on a good excuse to pull the trigger on this great deal.

 

 

You need to get your TM stuff on BST ASAP!

 

Been there and done that with PXG. The only TM club I have right now is my M1.

[SheriffBooth]

Let's be careful about politcal or pseudo-political posts, please.

[eagle1997]

two of the more interesting things from the complaint (to me):

 

Collectively, these P790 Product depictions reveal an iron-type golf club head with a hollow body portion having a face portion, a toe portion, a top portion, a sole portion, a back portion, and an interior cavity partially or entirely filled with an elastic polymer material TaylorMade calls a “Speedfoam.”

 

PXG demands a jury trial on all issues that are triable by a jury.

 

Is requesting a jury trial common in a situation such as this?

 

no idea.

 

if i were to guess, it's either a bargaining chip, a fleeting glimpse into the mind of a madman, or much ado about nothing.

 

further speculation: parsons is at least projecting the idea that he is willing to go the distance on this.

[pinestreetgolf]

Not a lawyer, so somebody who IS one, please fill me (and everybody else in) but how does a "broad" patent work, such as when PXG might patent say "foam injection molding" inside of a club face? Does that mean NO other companies in the world are now allowed to put foam inside their irons? Or is it just the exact process by which it is done?

 

To me this is like a car company putting a patent on the idea of using a steering wheel. How could one company be allowed to put a strangle hold on a certain way of building something that could be done a million different ways?

 

Unless TM copied PXGs exact formula for the foam, the way it's sprayed in... down to every last detail, from my layman's point of view, I don't see how this holds up in court.

 

Patent examiners arn't perfect. They are also not experts in every discipline. The patent may or may not hold up. The general theme of patent law is that the granting of patents is very broad and liberal (to encourage invention), and that those patents validity will be determined in court. If it isn't in the prior art and the application follows all the rules, you'll get the patent. Its unreasonable to expect a patent examiner to become an expert on golf irons, then back hos, then pool cleaning equipment, then oil field hoses, etc....

 

The system envisions the fact that "bad" patents will be unenforceable but still granted. You have to error on one side or the other (either grant too loose or too tight) and we have decided on too loose to encourage innovation.

[pinestreetgolf]

two of the more interesting things from the complaint (to me):

 

Collectively, these P790 Product depictions reveal an iron-type golf club head with a hollow body portion having a face portion, a toe portion, a top portion, a sole portion, a back portion, and an interior cavity partially or entirely filled with an elastic polymer material TaylorMade calls a “Speedfoam.”

 

PXG demands a jury trial on all issues that are triable by a jury.

 

Is requesting a jury trial common in a situation such as this?

 

no idea.

 

if i were to guess, it's either a bargaining chip, a fleeting glimpse into the mind of a madman, or much ado about nothing.

 

further speculation: parsons is at least projecting the idea that he is willing to go the distance on this.

 

Literally every lawsuit requests a jury. You can always move from jury to judge, but you can't move from judge to jury after a certain time period. So there is no downside to requesting a jury and a huge downside to requesting a judge (you can change one but not the other).

[ebrasmus21]

two of the more interesting things from the complaint (to me):

 

Collectively, these P790 Product depictions reveal an iron-type golf club head with a hollow body portion having a face portion, a toe portion, a top portion, a sole portion, a back portion, and an interior cavity partially or entirely filled with an elastic polymer material TaylorMade calls a “Speedfoam.”

 

PXG demands a jury trial on all issues that are triable by a jury.

 

Is requesting a jury trial common in a situation such as this?

 

no idea.

 

if i were to guess, it's either a bargaining chip, a fleeting glimpse into the mind of a madman, or much ado about nothing.

 

further speculation: parsons is at least projecting the idea that he is willing to go the distance on this.

 

 

I just thought he was bored. BTW I'm not a lawyer.

[ebrasmus21]

two of the more interesting things from the complaint (to me):

 

Collectively, these P790 Product depictions reveal an iron-type golf club head with a hollow body portion having a face portion, a toe portion, a top portion, a sole portion, a back portion, and an interior cavity partially or entirely filled with an elastic polymer material TaylorMade calls a “Speedfoam.”

 

PXG demands a jury trial on all issues that are triable by a jury.

 

Is requesting a jury trial common in a situation such as this?

 

no idea.

 

if i were to guess, it's either a bargaining chip, a fleeting glimpse into the mind of a madman, or much ado about nothing.

 

further speculation: parsons is at least projecting the idea that he is willing to go the distance on this.

 

Literally every lawsuit requests a jury. You can always move from jury to judge, but you can't move from judge to jury after a certain time period. So there is no downside to requesting a jury and a huge downside to requesting a judge (you can change one but not the other).

 

I see, interesting. When I think of trials I always think of A Few Good Men which I'm sure isn't exactly what a trial look like but still....

[eagle1997]

Literally every lawsuit requests a jury. You can always move from jury to judge, but you can't move from judge to jury after a certain time period. So there is no downside to requesting a jury and a huge downside to requesting a judge (you can change one but not the other).

 

 

good info.

[Gnomesteel]

So, why hasn't Parsons sued Edel? Don't their one length irons have polymer inside the cavity too?

[BirdieBob]

I need to buy the 100k PXG package, so that I can play a round with Bob to get the low down on this...

 

I have been waiting on a good excuse to pull the trigger on this great deal.

 

 

You need to get your TM stuff on BST ASAP!

 

Been there and done that with PXG. The only TM club I have right now is my M1.

 

 

Like a true GolfWrx golf ho!

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/421/confessions-of-a-golf-ho/

[bobcat]

I'll respond to all who quoted me here. Of course its speculation. I have no idea. Maybe he has the dolphin tanks that write family guy scripts from south park writing lawsuits. I was looking at the situation and writing what I thought might be going on. I think I'm right (obviously) but nobody knows, including me.

 

The infringement claims sound like a process patent (how the foam is bonded) but could be a unique feature and not a process. Either way, its not the club itself, but how its put together. Am I right about the rest? I have no idea. I don't think its a co-incidence the PE deal closes Oct. 1 and the suit happened now. There is no way a huge firm puts together a lawsuit this big in the little time since those irons were released IMO. But this is just IMO. My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. I do think, however, that calling Parsons a "moron" and railing against PXG is kinda dumb.

 

Without speculation, internet message boards would be newspapers.

 

EDIT

Here is how it will work -

 

PE Firm to Adidas - We didn't have this suit when we agreed to buy TM. We want out. We don't' officially take over until Oct 1, and this lawsuit has open-ended liability which is a reason we can break the deal.

Adidas - Oh Crap

Adidas to PXG - What will it take to settle this stupid thing so we can close the PE deal

PXG - It'll take XYZ

Adidas - Settle the stupid thing so we can get rid of Taylormade

 

Tons of lawsuits get filed right before PE deals close. Is it a coincidence? I have no idea. IT SURE IS FUNNY TIMING THOUGH...

 

The timing is certainly no 'coincidence' and that is precisely why the Court will most likely deem the lawsuit 100% 'predatory' in nature and lacking of any significant proof of any PXG patent infringement. (Hollow heads with a filler material are nothing really new, and the same can be said for various types of weighting, whether an OEM uses tungsten plugs, tungsten screws or another material/shape entirely).

 

PXG is clearly attempting to exploit the current TM sale/transition period vulnerability here in an effort to destroy/eliminate a major industry competitor, (ultimately for it's own financial gain). I believe the case will be thrown out for just those reasons, and I sincerely hope that's exactly what happens!

 

Furthermore, if the Court determines that PXG is indeed acting in an improper 'predatory' manner by bringing a lawsuit that doesn't appear to stand up to reasonable patent infringement scrutiny, then TM will have a strong counter case for damages and defamation against PXG. I hope the Court also realizes that it would be very unfair to TM to allow a patent infringement decision to drag on for too long. Hopefully, the Court will decide very quickly that a patent infringement case is totally without merit and will see the true Parsons and PXG for what they really are...vicious 'industry predators' trying to use the legal system to help them compete more effectively in the marketplace.

 

Parson's simply is unwilling to accept the fact that PXG has been 'one-upped' and embarrassed by TM's innovation and ability to build an equal, (and perhaps a better performing and more attractive), set of irons at a much lower price point than PXG can offer.

 

 

[sheppy335]

The courts will sort this out, it will be sue then counter sue and sue again. It will be a vicious cycle.

[rawdog]

Why would a private equity firm make a 450 million investment and allow a competitor to bulldoze them in a way that limits their potential to get a return on their investment. If anything the private equity firm will be more motivated to crush this lawsuit in court. This is a non-issue.

 

Also, this will have zero impact on sales. The only people in the world that know or care about this lawsuit are in this thread.

 

The private equity firm doesn't own TM yet. The deal hasn't closed. They might not think its worth 425m anymore. A company that has been sued is worth less than a company that has not been sued, even if the suit is meritless. Further, we have no idea how much they may require to reserve against the suit, or if they are even insured. Three main reasons why the PE firm would care about the suit:

 

1. Because they have no idea how long it will last. PE firms exist to boost short-term value and then sell on (like flipping a house). The company is not salable with an open-ended liability lawsuit on its books.

 

2. Because they have approximately two weeks to decide if they can win the lawsuit or not, because October 1 is the closing day for the PE deal. That isn't very much time.

 

3. The Epic crushed them, and they are looking for an excuse to get out.

 

Regardless of the pictures posted in a GolfWRX thread, this is likely an extremely complex issue that will require consultations with engineers outside of the firm. Buying a company that has this arrow pointed at them isn't great unless you think the company is an unbelievable bargain anyways.

 

Just speculation, but as rawdog said lawsuits go hand in hand with PE closings. Typically the selling entity has to just get rid of all of them, to the point where they allow for it in their calculation of purchase price. Or I could be way off base, and this has nothing to do with anything. But its odd that everyone thinks a guy who has had as much success as Parsons isn't intelligent.

 

 

Ding ding, we have a winner. Most LOIs and/or purchase agreements have a "material adverse change" clause which "enables the acquirer (or funder) to refuse to complete the acquisition or merger or financing with the party being acquired (often termed, the "target") if the target suffers such a change."

 

You can read more on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia..._adverse_change

 

I had a client that made big forestry equipment. I was the guy who processed all the data regarding open lawsuits against the company, to get a sense of the outstanding liability. I saw a lot of images of people going through wood chippers :)

 

But what really made the potential buyer uncomfortable was pending litigation from the EPA. A few drunks chopped up? No biggie. A monster fine? No thanks!

 

So, yes, acquirers will try and either clear out the lawsuits, or at least be comfortable with the level of outstanding risk.

 

It is totally possible that the acquirer would be reasonably comfortable defending this case in court, but even just the potential legal fees would qualify this lawsuit as a material adverse change.

[gaffs]

I was wondering a few months ago how long it would be before companies start replicating the idea of inserting plastics and polymers.

 

I have hit the PXG irons, they do feel great - whether they are $300 a club great is open to debate. Regardless of this lawsuit, if other companies can replicate that feel of the PXGs for half the price (or less), then how are PXG going to be able to justify the price tag?

[GWfool]

I play what is best for my game regardless of the brand and made to switch to PXG since the beginning of the year and was really impress with the stopping power, height, distance and forgiveness. Mainly was impress with the stopping power. Tried the P790 but it doesn't have the stopping power like PXG.

 

Know there is loads of hate for PXG but for a high handicapper like me playing to +15, the PXG really is pretty good. Don't really care about the lawsuit but am please that every company now is trying to bring their best to us and that's a good thing.

 

What model do you play at 15 handicap? No problem with mishits?

[pinestreetgolf]

I'll respond to all who quoted me here. Of course its speculation. I have no idea. Maybe he has the dolphin tanks that write family guy scripts from south park writing lawsuits. I was looking at the situation and writing what I thought might be going on. I think I'm right (obviously) but nobody knows, including me.

 

The infringement claims sound like a process patent (how the foam is bonded) but could be a unique feature and not a process. Either way, its not the club itself, but how its put together. Am I right about the rest? I have no idea. I don't think its a co-incidence the PE deal closes Oct. 1 and the suit happened now. There is no way a huge firm puts together a lawsuit this big in the little time since those irons were released IMO. But this is just IMO. My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. I do think, however, that calling Parsons a "moron" and railing against PXG is kinda dumb.

 

Without speculation, internet message boards would be newspapers.

 

EDIT

Here is how it will work -

 

PE Firm to Adidas - We didn't have this suit when we agreed to buy TM. We want out. We don't' officially take over until Oct 1, and this lawsuit has open-ended liability which is a reason we can break the deal.

Adidas - Oh Crap

Adidas to PXG - What will it take to settle this stupid thing so we can close the PE deal

PXG - It'll take XYZ

Adidas - Settle the stupid thing so we can get rid of Taylormade

 

Tons of lawsuits get filed right before PE deals close. Is it a co-incidence? I have no idea. IT SURE IS FUNNY TIMING THOUGH.

 

The timing is no coincidence and that is precisely why the Court will most likely deem the lawsuit 100% 'predatory' in nature and lacking of any significant proof of any PXG patent infringement. (Hollow heads with a filler material are nothing really new, and the same can be said for various types of weighting, whether an OEM uses tungsten plugs, tungsten screws or another material/shape entirely).

 

PXG is clearly attempting to exploit the current TM sale/transition period vulnerability here in an effort to destroy/eliminate a major industry competitor, (ultimately for it's own financial gain). I believe the case will be thrown out for just those reasons, and I sincerely hope that's exactly what happens!

 

Furthermore, if the Court determines that PXG is indeed acting in an improper predatory manner by bringing a lawsuit that doesn't appear to stand up to reasonable patent infringement scrutiny, then TM will have a very strong case for both damages and defamation against PXG. I hope the Court also realizes that it would be very unfair to TM to allow a patent infringement decision to drag on for too long. Hopefully, the Court will decide very quickly that a patent infringement case is totally without merit and will see the true Parsons and PXG for what they really are...vicious 'industry predators' trying to use the legal system to help them compete more effectively in the marketplace.

 

Parson's simply is unwilling to accept the fact that PXG has been 'one-upped' and embarrassed by TM's ability to build an equal, (and perhaps a better performing and more attractive), set of irons at a much lower price point than PXG can offer.

 

 

 

:golfer:

 

I don't disagree with you really, the problem is that the only vehicle to dispose of a federal suit quickly is a 12(b) motion, and they won't win any of them. There is jurisdiction and venue, and the petition makes out a claim that, if proven, would entitle PXG to relief. Hence, this lawsuit seems designed to force a quick settlement. Suing two weeks before a PE closing is the legal equivalent of a mugging at an ATM machine.

 

So while you may be right, TM doesn't deserve this for coming out with a great iron at a fraction of the price. Unfortunately, to quote Snoop deserve ain't go sh*t to do with it.

[xjohnx]

I was never a fan of staying in school any longer than I had to so, since I don't have my Golfwrx law degree like the rest of these know-it-alls, I'm just going to give my opinion.

 

I'm guessing the patents weren't in that much danger but, if your slogan is going to be "Nobody makes golf clubs the way we do, period." and then someone goes and EVEN KIND OF makes golf clubs like you do, you have to make a stand. I think Parsons had to file a suit just for the sake of maintaining credibility and integrity. Obviously it's not about money.

[BirdieBob]

I play what is best for my game regardless of the brand and made to switch to PXG since the beginning of the year and was really impress with the stopping power, height, distance and forgiveness. Mainly was impress with the stopping power. Tried the P790 but it doesn't have the stopping power like PXG.

 

Know there is loads of hate for PXG but for a high handicapper like me playing to +15, the PXG really is pretty good. Don't really care about the lawsuit but am please that every company now is trying to bring their best to us and that's a good thing.

 

What model do you play at 15 handicap? No problem with mishits?

 

 

 

PXG has three models of irons (plus driving irons) that will cover the entire range of handicaps/abilities. Great irons!

[Webby58]

I suppose Callaway will be next on Parsons radar once he is done with Taylormade. I think his plan is to take eveyone else down and force us all to buy his over priced irons

[Interpol]

Apparently they're not just suing over process patent infringement, but design patents too.

 

https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/09/13/inside-pxg-patent-suit-taylormade-equipment-company-prove-to-win?utm_campaign=si.golf&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_facebook_golf+

[brew4eagle]

I play what is best for my game regardless of the brand and made to switch to PXG since the beginning of the year and was really impress with the stopping power, height, distance and forgiveness. Mainly was impress with the stopping power. Tried the P790 but it doesn't have the stopping power like PXG.

 

Know there is loads of hate for PXG but for a high handicapper like me playing to +15, the PXG really is pretty good. Don't really care about the lawsuit but am please that every company now is trying to bring their best to us and that's a good thing.

Stopping power? C'mon, man!!!

[MichaelJScott]

I play what is best for my game regardless of the brand and made to switch to PXG since the beginning of the year and was really impress with the stopping power, height, distance and forgiveness. Mainly was impress with the stopping power. Tried the P790 but it doesn't have the stopping power like PXG.

 

Know there is loads of hate for PXG but for a high handicapper like me playing to +15, the PXG really is pretty good. Don't really care about the lawsuit but am please that every company now is trying to bring their best to us and that's a good thing.

Stopping power? C'mon, man!!!

Yea stopping power. In case someone breaks into his house in the middle of the night it will only take 1 golf ball hit to take down the intruder. Lol

[ebrasmus21]

I play what is best for my game regardless of the brand and made to switch to PXG since the beginning of the year and was really impress with the stopping power, height, distance and forgiveness. Mainly was impress with the stopping power. Tried the P790 but it doesn't have the stopping power like PXG.

 

Know there is loads of hate for PXG but for a high handicapper like me playing to +15, the PXG really is pretty good. Don't really care about the lawsuit but am please that every company now is trying to bring their best to us and that's a good thing.

Stopping power? C'mon, man!!!

Yea stopping power. In case someone breaks into his house in the middle of the night it will only take 1 golf ball hit to take down the intruder. Lol

 

That's only with the larger caliber clubs like their new driving iron as an example.

[PowderedToastMan]

Per the GolfWRX release spiel about the 790" In the two years TaylorMade spent developing the P-790 irons, it tested several filler materials, one of which was thermoplastic elastomer (TPE), the material PXG uses to fill the inside of its 0311 irons. “The problem with the TPE is that it completely kills your COR,” Bystedt says."

 

When I first read this, I thought "they really aren't hiding the fact that they are imitating the same process that PXG is using". The are inserting the goo the same way, building the head the same way. Now they are using the same TPE, and are tweaking on that.

 

You can't just flat out imitate a product. Clearly, the 0311 influenced the design of the 790. The engineer in the WRX article indirectly stated that himself. You can't seriously look at the 0311, how it's made, the materials and the process, and not believe Taylormade decided to make their own version of this. As soon as the P790 was released, everybody compared it to the 0311. Go read or watch ANY review and find one that doesn't mention PXG. Believe what you want about Mr. Parsons, but most anyone would sue over this, much like how PING should have sued PXG over the shaping of the PXG irons, particularly the 0311T a.k.a. the forged S55 with goo.

[MichaelJScott]

I play what is best for my game regardless of the brand and made to switch to PXG since the beginning of the year and was really impress with the stopping power, height, distance and forgiveness. Mainly was impress with the stopping power. Tried the P790 but it doesn't have the stopping power like PXG.

 

Know there is loads of hate for PXG but for a high handicapper like me playing to +15, the PXG really is pretty good. Don't really care about the lawsuit but am please that every company now is trying to bring their best to us and that's a good thing.

Stopping power? C'mon, man!!!

Yea stopping power. In case someone breaks into his house in the middle of the night it will only take 1 golf ball hit to take down the intruder. Lol

 

That's only with the larger caliber clubs like their new driving iron as an example.

Thats a great point. Hopefully he's got the hollow point screws in the right place

[ebrasmus21]

I play what is best for my game regardless of the brand and made to switch to PXG since the beginning of the year and was really impress with the stopping power, height, distance and forgiveness. Mainly was impress with the stopping power. Tried the P790 but it doesn't have the stopping power like PXG.

 

Know there is loads of hate for PXG but for a high handicapper like me playing to +15, the PXG really is pretty good. Don't really care about the lawsuit but am please that every company now is trying to bring their best to us and that's a good thing.

Stopping power? C'mon, man!!!

Yea stopping power. In case someone breaks into his house in the middle of the night it will only take 1 golf ball hit to take down the intruder. Lol

 

That's only with the larger caliber clubs like their new driving iron as an example.

Thats a great point. Hopefully he's got the hollow point screws in the right place

 

Right, some type of a law-enforcement round Tour Issue golf ball would help too

[MichaelJScott]

Yea those things don't come cheap either but if you want that extra stopping power it is gonna cost you an extra couple thousand dollars

[jazzy1488]

They had to know this was coming, right? I'm sure they skirted the patents expertly. Pretty common in this level of business frankly.

[Nessism]

Per the GolfWRX release spiel about the 790" In the two years TaylorMade spent developing the P-790 irons, it tested several filler materials, one of which was thermoplastic elastomer (TPE), the material PXG uses to fill the inside of its 0311 irons. “The problem with the TPE is that it completely kills your COR,” Bystedt says."

 

When I first read this, I thought "they really aren't hiding the fact that they are imitating the same process that PXG is using". The are inserting the goo the same way, building the head the same way. Now they are using the same TPE, and are tweaking on that.

 

You can't just flat out imitate a product. Clearly, the 0311 influenced the design of the 790. The engineer in the WRX article indirectly stated that himself. You can't seriously look at the 0311, how it's made, the materials and the process, and not believe Taylormade decided to make their own version of this. As soon as the P790 was released, everybody compared it to the 0311. Go read or watch ANY review and find one that doesn't mention PXG. Believe what you want about Mr. Parsons, but most anyone would sue over this, much like how PING should have sued PXG over the shaping of the PXG irons, particularly the 0311T a.k.a. the forged S55 with goo.

 

As has already been mentioned several pages back, Taylormade has a long history of making irons with foam "goo" inside so who's copying who?

 

And just as every ball maker cuts open the competitors balls to see what they are up to, it's obvious that Taylormade cut open a PXG club or two. Does that mean they copied them? NO. If anything it seems that Taylormade created a club that has some similar features as a PXG but also some enhancements (higher COR). And cheaper. Maybe PXG should sue Taylormade for that? Titleist did that to Costco. Guys living in the artificial world of unsupported high costs are scared.

[noodle3872]

Per the GolfWRX release spiel about the 790" In the two years TaylorMade spent developing the P-790 irons, it tested several filler materials, one of which was thermoplastic elastomer (TPE), the material PXG uses to fill the inside of its 0311 irons. “The problem with the TPE is that it completely kills your COR,” Bystedt says."

 

When I first read this, I thought "they really aren't hiding the fact that they are imitating the same process that PXG is using". The are inserting the goo the same way, building the head the same way. Now they are using the same TPE, and are tweaking on that.

 

You can't just flat out imitate a product. Clearly, the 0311 influenced the design of the 790. The engineer in the WRX article indirectly stated that himself. You can't seriously look at the 0311, how it's made, the materials and the process, and not believe Taylormade decided to make their own version of this. As soon as the P790 was released, everybody compared it to the 0311. Go read or watch ANY review and find one that doesn't mention PXG. Believe what you want about Mr. Parsons, but most anyone would sue over this, much like how PING should have sued PXG over the shaping of the PXG irons, particularly the 0311T a.k.a. the forged S55 with goo.

 

As has already been mentioned several pages back, Taylormade has a long history of making irons with foam "goo" inside so who's copying who?

 

And just as every ball maker cuts open the competitors balls to see what they are up to, it's obvious that Taylormade cut open a PXG club or two. Does that mean they copied them? NO. If anything it seems that Taylormade created a club that has some similar features as a PXG but also some enhancements (higher COR). And cheaper. Maybe PXG should sue Taylormade for that? Titleist did that to Costco. Guys living in the artificial world of unsupported high costs are scared.

 

In my mind, "making irons with foam "goo" inside" is one thing. Holding patents on "making irons with foam "goo" inside" is quite a different position to be in. This is could be similar the Titleist/Callaway battle all over again.

 

I find myself in a can't lose/can't win position because I own both PXG 0311 irons AND TM P790 irons. The only reason I picked up the TM irons was because they have less offset than my 0311's and more offset than the 0311T which had too little offset for my tastes.