Lie Angle - Huge Factor?

[A.Princey]

I just started using a newer set of irons that are black-nickel plated and I'm noticing a repetitive issue in that the toe portion of the SOLE is getting a significant amount of wear(turning silver). In all reality and as much as I've tinkered in the last couple years, I've never thought my LIE to be an issue until now, and having fought a hook in the past has had me opting for flatter lies to combat that issue.

 

It's now quite evident that I need to bend my clubs upright and go from there, but it does explain the dynamic SOLE wear on the toe of my irons and the thin shots that I occasionally scratch my head at. It's very exciting cause I believe I'm as much a 3 degrees too flat and I hope getting the LIE correct will have me flushing more shots and playing better golf.

 

Anyone care to chime in??

 

My wear marks on the face also had me confused but they make sense now, I always attributed them to a close face or inside out path, but the flat lie is obviously the main culprit.

[MakAttack]

Lie angle is important but I’ve always thought of it as flattening the club moves the sweet spot farther out and upright moves the sweet spot closer. I think path and face have more to do contact location. For what it’s worth my last irons were blue dot and my current irons are purple dot and the wear patterns are the exact same.

[nsxguy]

Not sure why an incorrect lie angle would cause toe hits.

 

I would've thought toe hits would usually mean your clubs are a bit too short. :dntknw:

[A.Princey]

Not sure why an incorrect lie angle would cause toe hits.

 

I would've thought toe hits would usually mean your clubs are a bit too short. :dntknw:

 

Sorry, I edited the initial post to include 'toe portion of the SOLE' wearing down(turf interaction), not the face of the club. I am discussing 2 different types of wear, sole and face.

 

Also, the wear pattern from the BALL is not the issue as far as where it's located on the face, but the direction lines from sand/soil/rocks at impact is not VERTICAL but rather angled, pointed shaftward as shown in the drawing.

[596]

Ping advised me at a fitting at the factory that lie angles can be 2 color codes in either direction and would not make any difference. So unless you are well outside in one direction it should not matter. I was advised I could play anything from 1* to 4* upright per Ping. I play my wedges at black color code as the more upright lies will have me hitting them left of target so I play them flatter.

[pearsonified]

First, lie angle is indeed a huge factor.

 

Second, your sole and face wear patterns suggest your lie angles are too flat for your swing...right now.

 

This is where it gets tricky. I would argue it's always best to use extreme caution when going more upright with lie angles, as this will only encourage what already appears to be a steep delivery of the club head into the ball.

 

Steepness into the ball has a seriously negative side-effect: Rate of club face closure is higher the more upright you go, and this affects both consistency and accuracy.

 

Ultimately, you need to look at your ball striking and be as honest with yourself as you can be. If your striking is generally good and you are confident in a consistent ball flight, then perhaps bending your lie angles more upright will suit your game nicely.

 

However, if your striking is just so-so right now, going more upright is only going to make it easier for you to continue to ingrain poor swing habits that lead to unpredictable results on the course.

 

IMO, it is ALWAYS better to err on the flatter side than the steeper side.

[mikpga]

Describe your most common ball flight...

 

Yes it is hooking...Is it starting right of target the hooking, at target then hooking, left of target then hooking?

 

I'd caution against going upright...

 

I'd be more concerned by the hooking than the wear mark on the sole...

[nsxguy]

Not sure why an incorrect lie angle would cause toe hits.

 

I would've thought toe hits would usually mean your clubs are a bit too short. :dntknw:

 

Sorry, I edited the initial post to include 'toe portion of the SOLE' wearing down(turf interaction), not the face of the club. I am discussing 2 different types of wear, sole and face.

 

Also, the wear pattern from the BALL is not the issue as far as where it's located on the face, but the direction lines from sand/soil/rocks at impact is not VERTICAL but rather angled, pointed shaftward as shown in the drawing.

 

Ahhhhh, got it. No problem.

 

For sure noticeable wear on the sole at the toe would indicate too flat a lie. So I would guess that your divots would generally be a bit deeper on the toe side as well.

 

 

Ping advised me at a fitting at the factory that lie angles can be 2 color codes in either direction and would not make any difference. So unless you are well outside in one direction it should not matter. I was advised I could play anything from 1* to 4* upright per Ping. I play my wedges at black color code as the more upright lies will have me hitting them left of target so I play them flatter.

 

Ping's color code chart has changed. They're now back to 1* increments and the yellow dot (1.5*), the set most seen on store racks over the past few years, is now GONE. :wacko:

 

So I guess it's 1.5 color codes in either direction that Ping NOW says wouldn't make a difference.

 

Personally I've said as much myself on here that a slight lie difference wouldn't make any difference in a beginner buying a used set to see if they like the game. Even to a lower double digit guy it probably wouldn't matter all that much.

 

But for the better player, one who can actually pretty consistently hit the ball where they're aiming, it's fairly important IMO. If the calculator I used is accurate, at 150 yards, 1 degree difference is almost 9 feet wide of your target. Now that's assuming your lie angle being 1* off results in a shot that's 1* off when it leaves the club face (and I'm not sure that's the case). So 2* would be almost 20 feet, a rather large penalty for you aiming and striking it perfectly yet the lie angle being off.

 

Now your 2nd point is interesting. I've seen that theory about wedges being a little flatter here on WRX and it makes sense. I assume it's because of the shorter shaft and the lesser swing speed generated causing less "toe down" effect; therefore the lie angle doesn't need to be as upright as the other irons. I also assume that really good players get their lie angles checked and adjusted for each club individually. I'm pretty sure the Pros do this - would be surprised if they didn't.

 

But your 2.5* difference between your irons and wedges sounds like a bit too much.

 

Personally I don't do this - can't be bothered as I'm only a recreational golfer. :)

[596]

 

Ping's color code chart has changed. They're now back to 1* increments and the yellow dot (1.5*), the set most seen on store racks over the past few years, is now GONE. :wacko:

 

So I guess it's 1.5 color codes in either direction that Ping NOW says wouldn't make a difference.

 

Personally I've said as much myself on here that a slight lie difference wouldn't make any difference in a beginner buying a used set to see if they like the game. Even to a lower double digit guy it probably wouldn't matter all that much.

 

But for the better player, one who can actually pretty consistently hit the ball where they're aiming, it's fairly important IMO. If the calculator I used is accurate, at 150 yards, 1 degree difference is almost 9 feet wide of your target. Now that's assuming your lie angle being 1* off results in a shot that's 1* off when it leaves the club face (and I'm not sure that's the case). So 2* would be almost 20 feet, a rather large penalty for you aiming and striking it perfectly yet the lie angle being off.

 

Now your 2nd point is interesting. I've seen that theory about wedges being a little flatter here on WRX and it makes sense. I assume it's because of the shorter shaft and the lesser swing speed generated causing less "toe down" effect; therefore the lie angle doesn't need to be as upright as the other irons. I also assume that really good players get their lie angles checked and adjusted for each club individually. I'm pretty sure the Pros do this - would be surprised if they didn't.

 

But your 2.5* difference between your irons and wedges sounds like a bit too much.

 

Personally I don't do this - can't be bothered as I'm only a recreational golfer. :)

 

As I ended my fitting at Ping he handed me a wedge shot chart. For 2 weeks I plotted all my wedge approaches. Found that they were indeed much left of target. I play wedges at black dot which is 2.5* flatter. I can also play them at 2.5* upright and aim a few feet right of target. As an 8 handicap at this point it really does not matter at all. I'm not consistent enough to notice a difference. My swing can be well outside the 2.5* window with pulls, pushes, thins and fats.

[SkiSchoolPro]

My last two sets have had irons 4* up along with gw-lob wedges that are 2* up (but the wedges might not be right now as I haven't checked them all in a while and I notice that the wear pattern is centered on my 56 & 60, but out on the toe for my 52).

 

I did this based off info on a strike board that showed toe sole wear. I am tall and do chart out a bit upright. Also, some swing data shows my hands are more upright at impact than at address. I recall one club fitter years ago (when I played standard) telling me that I compensate for a club that is too flat by closing the club face and playing a draw/hook as too flat a club tends to dig toe first which tends to open the club. Of course, if your divot starts after the ball is off the club, this shouldn't matter, (but having a club come in more upright than it is designed might impart cut spin??)

 

I do think my game has improved since I have gone to more upright clubs, but there could be other factors.

[Cwebb]

 

as too flat a club tends to dig toe first which tends to open the club. Of course, if your divot starts after the ball is off the club, this shouldn't matter, (but having a club come in more upright than it is designed might impart cut spin??)

 

 

That's not the reason why a club that is too flat, will go to the right. It's because a lie angle actually 'tilts' the face to the right when flat and to the left when upright

[Ajlepisto]

Couple things I noticed when I went through this.

 

1. If the clubs are too flat, it's difficult to hit the ball solid, take a good divot and have a stable face. In order to keep your face stable and moving along a good path, you need to be able to keep the toe of the club statically higher than the heel.

 

Because one you put load onto the shaft, it will deflect back and droop. (Toe Down) Some shafts for some players will deflect and droop more. So lie also needs to take into account for the shaft type. This is why if you ever change shafts, you should likely check your lies again too. I went to a weaker tip shaft to try to increase spin and could not play the same lie as before.

 

If it's extreme you can also have divots that LOOK like the club is coming in really really open to your target. A lot of people think it's the face super open and not squaring up, when in reality the face can be fairly square through the ground but the toe will start to enter the turf sooner than the heel.

 

Take a look at this divot for example: http://www.intothero..._divot_hole.jpg

 

Years ago I believed this was because my face would be open coming into the ball. WHen in reality I eventually learned that it was because the toe was excessively lower than the heel. I figured this out because I stood behind Charl Schwartzel at the Frys.com for a while on the range and then on the course and watched how he was addressing and then coming through impact. His hands stayed lower through the ball, with the look that he was trying to make sure he brought the heel of the club in lower than the toe. I went back and tried this and voila, divots looked fine and the clubs bounce suddenly worked.

 

So not sure if you're that far off, but I'd bend them a little up, maybe take your long iron and one of the shorter ones and see if it improves your turf interaction.

 

Don't fit based on ball flight alone because that's a bandaid. I had a bad swing and I'd catch the toe but I could fade the ball and I didn't want to hook it, so I put off getting the right lie for a long time.

 

Did me no good. Fix the turf interaction first, or meet in the middle if you're trying to rework your swing with an instructor, but golf is nearly impossible if you're not actually hitting the ball solid and getting the club through the ground correctly.

 

ALso I would hit more hooks and have more face rotation with flat lies because my body would try to compensate. I'd swing more to the right to shallow myself so I wouldnt catch the toe and my swing got really shallow, and had a big stall and flip. WHen I would hold the face stable and try to just release it naturally I would hit big blocks. When I went to a more upright lie, suddenly I felt like I could hit down on the ball a lot, I hit it way higher, a lot more spin, and I picked up distance almost overnight because I could finally hit the ball hard. The clubs initially felt like they were going to go left and I was holding it off, but when I played a bit and got used to it, I realized that I was just always playing clubs too flat and trying to rotate the face through the ball to time it. Suddenly not rotating the face with my hands at all felt like holding it off, but it wasn't/isn't.

 

I think it's way easier to have a stable hard release with a more upright but properly fit lie than to fight off hooks by having a flat lie and trying to make that work.

[Ajlepisto]

First, lie angle is indeed a huge factor.

 

Second, your sole and face wear patterns suggest your lie angles are too upright for your swing...right now.

 

This is where it gets tricky. I would argue it's always best to use extreme caution when going more upright with lie angles, as this will only encourage what already appears to be a steep delivery of the club head into the ball.

 

Steepness into the ball has a seriously negative side-effect: Rate of club face closure is higher the more upright you go, and this affects both consistency and accuracy.

 

Ultimately, you need to look at your ball striking and be as honest with yourself as you can be. If your striking is generally good and you are confident in a consistent ball flight, then perhaps bending your lie angles more upright will suit your game nicely.

 

However, if your striking is just so-so right now, going more upright is only going to make it easier for you to continue to ingrain poor swing habits that lead to unpredictable results on the course.

 

IMO, it is ALWAYS better to err on the flatter side than the steeper side.

 

His toe side of his irons is marking, which would indicate the irons are too flat, not too upright. The tilt of the wear on the face would indicate they might be too upright. It's a 50/50 split.

 

To me you have to go with solid through the ground first, because that's something you can't really change much without a big swing overhawl. Everyone kind of has a natural way they want to move the club through the ground and even with swing changes I don't think I've ever seen someone make a big swing with their lie angle. Maybe 1 degree or so.

[Noodler]

I always recommend that lie angles be initially set based on the golfer's physical measurements. From there they should be checked dynamically over a period of time (and not with a lie board, vertical marker method on real grass is best).

 

You should first have your lie angles measured/checked to see if your clubs are within spec for what you expect.

 

Your decision is then dependent on your goals in golf. If you're not interested in improving your swing flaws and want to help your resulting ball flight through lie angle adjustments, go for it. Personally I do not recommend trying to use lie angle changes to fix ball flight issues due to swing flaws.

[MakAttack]

Completely agree, lie boards are a waist of time. Vertical line test on real grass while observing ball flight is the only way to go.

[A.Princey]

Couple things I noticed when I went through this.

 

1. If the clubs are too flat, it's difficult to hit the ball solid, take a good divot and have a stable face. In order to keep your face stable and moving along a good path, you need to be able to keep the toe of the club statically higher than the heel.

 

Because one you put load onto the shaft, it will deflect back and droop. (Toe Down) Some shafts for some players will deflect and droop more. So lie also needs to take into account for the shaft type. This is why if you ever change shafts, you should likely check your lies again too. I went to a weaker tip shaft to try to increase spin and could not play the same lie as before.

 

If it's extreme you can also have divots that LOOK like the club is coming in really really open to your target. A lot of people think it's the face super open and not squaring up, when in reality the face can be fairly square through the ground but the toe will start to enter the turf sooner than the heel.

 

Take a look at this divot for example: http://www.intothero..._divot_hole.jpg

 

Years ago I believed this was because my face would be open coming into the ball. WHen in reality I eventually learned that it was because the toe was excessively lower than the heel. I figured this out because I stood behind Charl Schwartzel at the Frys.com for a while on the range and then on the course and watched how he was addressing and then coming through impact. His hands stayed lower through the ball, with the look that he was trying to make sure he brought the heel of the club in lower than the toe. I went back and tried this and voila, divots looked fine and the clubs bounce suddenly worked.

 

So not sure if you're that far off, but I'd bend them a little up, maybe take your long iron and one of the shorter ones and see if it improves your turf interaction.

 

Don't fit based on ball flight alone because that's a bandaid. I had a bad swing and I'd catch the toe but I could fade the ball and I didn't want to hook it, so I put off getting the right lie for a long time.

 

Did me no good. Fix the turf interaction first, or meet in the middle if you're trying to rework your swing with an instructor, but golf is nearly impossible if you're not actually hitting the ball solid and getting the club through the ground correctly.

 

ALso I would hit more hooks and have more face rotation with flat lies because my body would try to compensate. I'd swing more to the right to shallow myself so I wouldnt catch the toe and my swing got really shallow, and had a big stall and flip. WHen I would hold the face stable and try to just release it naturally I would hit big blocks. When I went to a more upright lie, suddenly I felt like I could hit down on the ball a lot, I hit it way higher, a lot more spin, and I picked up distance almost overnight because I could finally hit the ball hard. The clubs initially felt like they were going to go left and I was holding it off, but when I played a bit and got used to it, I realized that I was just always playing clubs too flat and trying to rotate the face through the ball to time it. Suddenly not rotating the face with my hands at all felt like holding it off, but it wasn't/isn't.

 

I think it's way easier to have a stable hard release with a more upright but properly fit lie than to fight off hooks by having a flat lie and trying to make that work.

 

To be clear, I can manage my swing and work the ball as needed to an extent, but I believe you hit the nail on the head about turf interaction. My problem is that my go-to-shot and NORMAL swing that I've had for a decade + doesn't feel right anymore and produces puzzling ball flight results. I've never felt confident hitting down through impact the last few years with 3-8 iron cause the feel was off and I'd have to catch the ball perfectly coming from the inside to not thin one or catch the toe on the ground early and hit it fat despite the sweetspot of the club still being marginally above the ground. Turf interaction is what generates great feel from a well struck shot, so I'll get my impact centered on the sole and then work on which swing I want to take. I'm going upright with 3i and 9i a few degrees to achieve this and see if it helps.

 

One important note is how I've altered my equipment too, I've shortened my irons to the traditional length established decades ago and in some instances, shorter in the long irons for better contact.(I know, epic fail so far.....). I was aware too, at the time, the decreased length would make impact flatter too, which I thought would be a fix, but has backfired. I have also gone up in swingweight to around D6 throughout my set to match my lob wedge that I hit like butter. Even at 64 degrees, I can hit that thing opened way up, full swing, and over trees for a 20 yard flop with no fear of poor turf interaction(thin or fat).

 

Edit: Also, the number of poor shots is astonishing as of late in that same regard, whereas before, hitting the ball 'somewhat' flush was pretty effortless and the shots resulting from poor contact where very few and far between.

[A.Princey]

I always recommend that lie angles be initially set based on the golfer's physical measurements. From there they should be checked dynamically over a period of time (and not with a lie board, vertical marker method on real grass is best).

 

You should first have your lie angles measured/checked to see if your clubs are within spec for what you expect.

 

Your decision is then dependent on your goals in golf. If you're not interested in improving your swing flaws and want to help your resulting ball flight through lie angle adjustments, go for it. Personally I do not recommend trying to use lie angle changes to fix ball flight issues due to swing flaws.

 

I'm not trying to fix ball flight cause I can accomplish that on my own by swing changes, stance, grip etc, as I've done before. I'm only stating that the toe of my irons is taking the divot and my turf interaction is garbage. Some swings feel great at impact and some don't, but the resulting ball doesn't always align with that FEEL. Some of the great feeling shots leave me puzzled and some of the 'hand-twisting' shots fly remarkably well.

[Jagpilotohio]

I can't believe how often this topic comes up on this site and how often people are dead wrong about it.

 

Incorrect ball flight due to lie angle HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TURF INTERACTION. Your toe is not "digging in" and causing the club to open BEFORE impact if your club is too flat. The ball is long gone before you start to make a divot. Repeat that. A divot starts AFTER the ball has left the face. The ball was BEHIND the divot before it went skyward unless you hit it incredibly fat.

 

Lie angle launches the ball left or right of intended target because of the "direction" the loft of the club is pointing at impact. If you make a good swing, on a good path toward your target the bottom grove ideally should be perpendicular to your target line at impact. If it isn't, your launch will be effected adversely. It has NOTHING to do with turf interaction.

[Atrayn]

I made a post on lie angles regarding my new irons not that long ago. The line on the face suggested I needed to be more upright, however after analyzing my swing on video, I found that my hands were too high coming into impact. If I wanted to live with the high hands, I could go a degree and a half upright and forget about the swing, however, that's not what I want to do. I'm drilling now to keep the hands where they need to be instead.

[Noodler]

I made a post on lie angles regarding my new irons not that long ago. The line on the face suggested I needed to be more upright, however after analyzing my swing on video, I found that my hands were too high coming into impact. If I wanted to live with the high hands, I could go a degree and a half upright and forget about the swing, however, that's not what I want to do. I'm drilling now to keep the hands where they need to be instead.

 

Exactly. This was the point of my post regarding the goals of the golfer. But first you need to understand the cause of the issue(s). So slow-mo video and launch monitor data will go a long way to giving the golfer that understanding. Without that information you are shooting blind at trying to find solutions.

[bph7]

Lie angle changes so much about your swing dynamically it’s just impossible to say. You are not going to put the same exact swing on a given club with the lie angle 3* different. Go to a good teacher/clubfitter to see whether it’s the lie angle.

[Matt J]

A lot of guys are within a degree or two of standard. I think you can adjust and play with that type of misfit.

 

If you're tall with short arms (common for tall women) or short with long arms (common for short men like me) then you can need 3 or 4 degrees different than standard. That's tough.

 

I've bought forged sets of irons off of eBay this year that had lie angles bent more than 7 degrees from standard. Also, lots of sets the deviation from club to club is all over the place.

 

So figure out your specs and go to someone good and get your irons bent to your specs.

[pearsonified]

Lie angle changes so much about your swing dynamically it’s just impossible to say. You are not going to put the same exact swing on a given club with the lie angle 3* different. Go to a good teacher/clubfitter to see whether it’s the lie angle.

This here is the truth.

 

Lie angle massively affects how your brain perceives the club and thus how you swing it. If the physical specs of the club don't match your brain's characterization of the golf swing, you're never going to strike the ball anywhere near your potential.

[Atrayn]

Lie angle changes so much about your swing dynamically it's just impossible to say. You are not going to put the same exact swing on a given club with the lie angle 3* different. Go to a good teacher/clubfitter to see whether it's the lie angle.

 

With all due respect, I CAN put the exact same swing on on a club 3 degrees flat and one that is 3 degrees upright. The outcome is drastically different not the swing.

[bph7]

Lie angle changes so much about your swing dynamically it's just impossible to say. You are not going to put the same exact swing on a given club with the lie angle 3* different. Go to a good teacher/clubfitter to see whether it's the lie angle.

 

With all due respect, I CAN put the exact same swing on on a club 3 degrees flat and one that is 3 degrees upright. The outcome is drastically different not the swing.

 

With all due respect, I don’t believe you. Show it. You’d be the first that could demonstrate this.

[Atrayn]

Lie angle changes so much about your swing dynamically it's just impossible to say. You are not going to put the same exact swing on a given club with the lie angle 3* different. Go to a good teacher/clubfitter to see whether it's the lie angle.

 

With all due respect, I CAN put the exact same swing on on a club 3 degrees flat and one that is 3 degrees upright. The outcome is drastically different not the swing.

 

With all due respect, I don't believe you. Show it. You'd be the first that could demonstrate this.

 

First, since I'm obviously not able to do this any time in the next couple days, please explain how a 5 iron bent 3 degrees flat, vs 3 degrees upright changes the swing dynamics?

Edit - Now if I wanted to hit the 3 degree flat iron straight.....I would have to change something in my swing. I can still put the same swing on both clubs, however the outcome is much different like I said...

[bph7]

Lie angle changes so much about your swing dynamically it's just impossible to say. You are not going to put the same exact swing on a given club with the lie angle 3* different. Go to a good teacher/clubfitter to see whether it's the lie angle.

 

With all due respect, I CAN put the exact same swing on on a club 3 degrees flat and one that is 3 degrees upright. The outcome is drastically different not the swing.

 

With all due respect, I don't believe you. Show it. You'd be the first that could demonstrate this.

 

First, since I'm obviously not able to do this any time in the next couple days, please explain how a 5 iron bent 3 degrees flat, vs 3 degrees upright changes the swing dynamics?

Edit - Now if I wanted to hit the 3 degree flat iron straight.....I would have to change something in my swing. I can still put the same swing on both clubs, however the outcome is much different like I said...

 

If you have an ounce of athleticism/hand eye coordination, which, based on your playing ability I believe you have plenty of, you brain is going to make adjustments to swings between clubs that have a three degree lie angle difference in order to help you hit it to the target. Just like people who are steel EE to shallow the club. That’s their body/brain telling them “I’m way too steep, better shallow it out before I dig a trench.”

 

I’ve yet to see anyone show me nothing changes dynamically that much in their swing when the lie angles are that different, I’m inviting you to be the first. Also, by drilling, are you referring to anti-lock braking systems “carpet bagging” drill where you get way under with the club on the table top and with face pointed up at p6 (I know some detractors refer to it as the fried egg method). Cuz that’s not what anyone good ever did.

[pearsonified]

Because they are an expensive PITA to fit and adjust, lie angles are downplayed by all the major OEMs (PING was the last to cave).

 

As a result, golfers now downplay their importance as well, and we end up with ignorant discussions on the topic (like the 2 WRX threads currently addressing lie angles).

 

Lie angles are the most important factor in your irons and wedges. You probably don't believe it because [1] OEMs would prefer you obsess over length and head design, and [2] you've not hit thousands of balls to examine the effects of lie angles on your golf swing.

 

You don't have to accept this reality, but to push back and say "two degrees isn't going to make any difference at all" is beyond delusional.

 

Bottom line: Properly fitting lie angles is difficult and expensive. Big box retailers are NOT set up to provide proper lie angle fittings to customers. Thus, the onus is on the golfer to make it happen, and this sort of responsibility is where most people tend to draw the line.

[Atrayn]

Lie angle changes so much about your swing dynamically it's just impossible to say. You are not going to put the same exact swing on a given club with the lie angle 3* different. Go to a good teacher/clubfitter to see whether it's the lie angle.

 

With all due respect, I CAN put the exact same swing on on a club 3 degrees flat and one that is 3 degrees upright. The outcome is drastically different not the swing.

 

With all due respect, I don't believe you. Show it. You'd be the first that could demonstrate this.

 

First, since I'm obviously not able to do this any time in the next couple days, please explain how a 5 iron bent 3 degrees flat, vs 3 degrees upright changes the swing dynamics?

Edit - Now if I wanted to hit the 3 degree flat iron straight.....I would have to change something in my swing. I can still put the same swing on both clubs, however the outcome is much different like I said...

 

If you have an ounce of athleticism/hand eye coordination, which, based on your playing ability I believe you have plenty of, you brain is going to make adjustments to swings between clubs that have a three degree lie angle difference in order to help you hit it to the target. Just like people who are steel EE to shallow the club. That's their body/brain telling them "I'm way too steep, better shallow it out before I dig a trench."

 

I've yet to see anyone show me nothing changes dynamically that much in their swing when the lie angles are that different, I'm inviting you to be the first. Also, by drilling, are you referring to anti-lock braking systems "carpet bagging" drill where you get way under with the club on the table top and with face pointed up at p6 (I know some detractors refer to it as the fried egg method). Cuz that's not what anyone good ever did.

 

Did you read my edit?

 

I have no idea what you mean by carpet bagging drill....

 

For me, when the handle gets higher, it's my old habits creeping in and I know how to fix it. What drill that is helps me. Maybe not everyone. If there is a universal drill I would suggest for most players when the hands get high, or too far away is Zach Allen's "The Magic of the Right Arm."

[bph7]

 

 

With all due respect, I CAN put the exact same swing on on a club 3 degrees flat and one that is 3 degrees upright. The outcome is drastically different not the swing.

 

With all due respect, I don't believe you. Show it. You'd be the first that could demonstrate this.

 

First, since I'm obviously not able to do this any time in the next couple days, please explain how a 5 iron bent 3 degrees flat, vs 3 degrees upright changes the swing dynamics?

Edit - Now if I wanted to hit the 3 degree flat iron straight.....I would have to change something in my swing. I can still put the same swing on both clubs, however the outcome is much different like I said...

 

If you have an ounce of athleticism/hand eye coordination, which, based on your playing ability I believe you have plenty of, you brain is going to make adjustments to swings between clubs that have a three degree lie angle difference in order to help you hit it to the target. Just like people who are steel EE to shallow the club. That's their body/brain telling them "I'm way too steep, better shallow it out before I dig a trench."

 

I've yet to see anyone show me nothing changes dynamically that much in their swing when the lie angles are that different, I'm inviting you to be the first. Also, by drilling, are you referring to anti-lock braking systems "carpet bagging" drill where you get way under with the club on the table top and with face pointed up at p6 (I know some detractors refer to it as the fried egg method). Cuz that's not what anyone good ever did.

 

Did you read my edit?

 

I have no idea what you mean by carpet bagging drill....

 

For me, when the handle gets higher, it's my old habits creeping in and I know how to fix it. What drill that is helps me. Maybe not everyone. If there is a universal drill I would suggest for most players when the hands get high, or too far away is Zach Allen's "The Magic of the Right Arm."

 

I did see your edit and that’s the point I disagree with the most. I don’t think you could just put the same swing on both and hit the flat one further right. You’d have to be extremely unathletic to do so, and I don’t think you are and even if you were I doubt you’d make remotely solid contact.