ggswingtipsgolf.com shady business practices

[raywutang]

UPDATE: nothing from gg yet. according to his instagram story, he's at the gym. probably a gym that auto-renews you for a year that you cant get out of after your initial commitment ends. ill give him a couple days, before i reach out again via instagram. i did get gg's email address from a nice member here, but it is the same exact same email address where i received the crummy customer service from Ronnie, so...yeah.

 

with regard to gym memberships, ive never been to a gym that auto-renews you for another year. it is always you commit for a certain time period, then month-to-month after.

 

My experience is as follows, for those who like to jump down my throat about the T&C:

 

- Oct 2016: Signed up for a year membership at www.ggswingtips.com (you cant even get to this site now, redirects to his new site). This site only offered a yearly membership, if the monthly option was offered I would've much preferred that, but it did not. Filled out my information and provided my CC. I don't remember seeing a checkbox for auto-renewal at the time, bc if I did I certainly would've opt-ed out. I always do this bc a year is a long time, things get forgotten. No T&C page where you check off before signing up officially. Just pay and you are in. I get order confirmation with terms listed (already posted that).

 

- Feb. 2017: New site debuts. His old site is pretty much obsolete, no updates anymore, nothing. At first, I did not have access to the new one, so I had to ask to be moved over. No issues. After that, I started getting emails every week from the site.

 

- Jul. 2017: Emails from site stop for some reason. At this time, I also stopped going to the site, as I was just playing/practicing what I already learned in the prior months.

 

- Oct. 2017: See charge on my CC for an auto-renewal at www.ggswingtips.com (the site that has been completely obsolete in 2017). No renewal notice ever, just a charge on my card. At first, I went to the new site to cancel things, but could not see anywhere to cancel. I had to log back in to the old site, to do this. Weird. Contact support for a refund and they say no due to T&C that was new to me. At same time, they offer me their Platinum package, which I could use my already charged CC funds towards. I say no to their offer and ask again for my refund, answer is no. This went back and forth a few times. Reached out to GG and at same time posted on here to see if anyone else had experienced this with the site.

 

 

It is funny that some of you gents mention gym memberships bc in my exchanges with Ronnie he kept using some gym membership analogy for the site. It didnt make much sense there and doesnt make much sense here.

 

I was never offered any other option but to sign up for the Platinum membership upgrade. If I was given an offer like we have to charge you for a month, and refund the rest, I wouldve been ok with that. However I wasnt, so I felt trapped and scammed out of my hard earned money.

[jimwgt26]

Gym membership is not an apples to apples comparison. One is online content, other is physical use. Trapping people with online auto renew is not an honest living.

[squishyy]

So what is stopping you, OP, from filing a credit card dispute with your credit card company?

[BiggErn]

So what is stopping you, OP, from filing a credit card dispute with your credit card company?

 

It’s not a CC issue. There wasn’t a fraudulent charge just shady business practice. Try to resolve it with the business first through the BBB them as a last resort dispute it through the CC company.

[thevaporz]

His homepage gave me seizures so I would never sign up for that quack. Golfing in flip flops?

[Yanki01]

His homepage gave me seizures so I would never sign up for that quack. Golfing in flip flops?

 

almost worse than using the weed eater in flip flops like my neighbor. was paired up with a guy in those FJ sandals - weirdest round ever.

[J13]

His homepage gave me seizures so I would never sign up for that quack. Golfing in flip flops?

 

You realize he coaches some of the best amateurs in the country and some up and coming PGA Tour players right?

[anth]

File a dispute with your credit card company. It doesn't matter that it's not a credit card issue you can still file a dispute. The vendor will then be notified and will have to send through info backing their T & Cs and that they did everything right.

[CallawayKid86]

so i signed up a year ago on 10/05/16, come 10/05/17 they auto-charged me for another year. I noticed on 10/07/16 the charge on my CC bill, and decide that I don't want another year on the site, so i contact site support for a refund. not only do i get denied due to some cockamamie terms and conditions bullcrap

 

So, you signed up for a year, didn't pay attention to the website's auto-renew Terms and Conditions, and you're angry they won't refund you for your mistake.

 

Correct?

 

I have no affiliation with the Company, but, I'd be willing to bet if you posted the T&C here I'd easily be able to find the 30 day provision you're arguing against as well.

 

 

Sorry, but the site isn't at fault here.

 

The company I work for has several subscription based apps. It amazes me the number of people who don't read the terms and conditions.

[raywutang]

You guys know that there are laws regarding auto renewal policies in most states right? Cali being one of the most strict: http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/california-s-automatic-renewal-law-73527/

[J13]

You guys know that there are laws regarding auto renewal policies in most states right? Cali being one of the most strict: http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/california-s-automatic-renewal-law-73527/

 

Thats strong.

[Medic]

Someone please explain. You keep calling it a "shady business practice" but the terms were right there for the OP to read regarding automated renewals until/unless cancelled. How is this shady?

 

The honus, at some point, has to fall on the person who should have read the contract.

 

A friend of mine leased a car. He loved the thing and really took great care of it. Unfortunately he failed to read the fine print in his contract that clearly stated he would have to pay for the additional mileage over the 24,000 he was allowed. This is a standard feature for contracts involving auto leases but this was his first and he failed to read it.

Was Ford and the dealership "scummy" or "shady" for having him sign a contract he didn't read? Who's responsibility is it to know the rules going in?

 

Sorry OP but I still don't see how the business practice is a shady one. Had you read the Terms of Service you would have known up front that they were going to hit your card again automatically.

 

It might be a PITA but it's a necessary evil - when you are signing a contract it's always best to read the so-called fine print before signing on. By clicking "I agree" the OP basically indicated "Sure, I read those terms and agree to them." The fact that he clearly didn't is on him.

[raywutang]

Medic, so your friend’s lease auto renewed for another year when his initial commitment ended and the dealership never conveyed that policy clearly and concisely upon time of his signing? I didn’t think so.

 

I’m not sure what your deal is, but if you’re going to lecture me on this stuff please use an example that compares apples to apples.

[SlamMan]

I run an e-commerce business so this stuff interests me. Legality and ethics aside, in my experience dealing with customers like this isn't a winning long-term practice.

 

That being said I looked at the site on Archive.org from Oct '16 and didn't immediately find any links to terms. I did, however, find the following sentence front and center on the homepage.

 

"If at any point you think that this isn't for you- just shoot me an email and I'll give you a full refund."

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20161008022927/http://ggswingtips.com/

 

Unless they can show somewhere that you agreed to the new t&c then the previous agreement is still in place so I don't see why they wouldn't owe you a full refund as originally promised. I think you've given them ample opportunity to resolve it so, at this point, I'd probably just take that straight to your credit card company and dispute it.

[jimwgt26]

The car lease is a bad comparison. A car lease is paying for the depreciation of the car. When the car is returned at the end of the lease, the dealer has to move the car again. Driving extra miles affects the cars value. While the car is under lease, it can't be sold/ leased to someone else. One subscription to an online site doesn't prevent the site from selling a subscription to someone else. If the customer cancels their subscription, they lose the ability to access the content, but the value of the content isn't affected. There's no depreciation of online content.

 

The OP signed up on one site, that said it gives refunds. Gankas switched online providers in the middle of his contract. If the terms on the new site are different, they should clearly let existing customers know. They should also remind customers at the end of the initial period (say 11 months) that it's about to expire and they will be automatically re-enrolled. IMO, an honorable business should honor the previous terms. Again trapping customers through terms and conditions is a bad business model. It's stealing from your customers.

[Medic]

The auto lease "example" is just to say my main point - read the fine print and odds are you avoid situations like this.

 

Not lecturing anyone (OP) - just stating facts. When you click "I agree" it's probably a pretty good idea to know what you are agreeing to. Sadly you didn't.

 

Is it poor form for a website to take money automatically? It's a standard.

 

I have similar agreements in place with XM, GolfNow VIP, and MyScoreCard.com - I know they will take the money out annually unless I notify them not to. No lectures there. Read the agreement before you click OK and you won't be in the position you are in. Would be interesting if someone from this business you called "shady" came here considering the circumstances.

[jut111]

The auto lease "example" is just to say my main point - read the fine print and odds are you avoid situations like this.

 

Not lecturing anyone (OP) - just stating facts. When you click "I agree" it's probably a pretty good idea to know what you are agreeing to. Sadly you didn't.

 

Is it poor form for a website to take money automatically? It's a standard.

 

I have similar agreements in place with XM, GolfNow VIP, and MyScoreCard.com - I know they will take the money out annually unless I notify them not to. No lectures there. Read the agreement before you click OK and you won't be in the position you are in. Would be interesting if someone from this business you called "shady" came here considering the circumstances.

 

You keep repeating yourself while ignoring that the OP claims at the time and on the site he signed up for there were no terms citing auto renewal. He was ported to a new site at some point during that year period with new terms, and never notified of those new terms. Assuming OP is accurate with his timeline, he certainly has a legitimate beef in my book.

[jj9000]

jj9000, thanks for that bc you just proved my point. i originally signed up for ggswingtips.com in 10/2016. in 2017, he revamped his site and came out with ggswingtipsgolf.com, members from the old site just got ported over to the new one and apparently with a brand new T&C. Any T&C updates legally have to be given to customers, which I was not.

 

to make things even more confusing, the actual charge is from the original site: ggswingtips.com, not his new site: ggswingtipsgolf.com

 

 

You still haven't read the T&C of the site you signed up for.

 

The URL you posted above = (http://members.ggswingtips.com)

 

ggswingtips.com is the site.

 

1. Click the URL

2. Click Disclaimer

3. Scroll to the bottom of the Disclaimer link and read the massive bolded portion at the bottom

 

The auto lease "example" is just to say my main point - read the fine print and odds are you avoid situations like this.

 

Not lecturing anyone (OP) - just stating facts. When you click "I agree" it's probably a pretty good idea to know what you are agreeing to. Sadly you didn't.

 

Is it poor form for a website to take money automatically? It's a standard.

 

I have similar agreements in place with XM, GolfNow VIP, and MyScoreCard.com - I know they will take the money out annually unless I notify them not to. No lectures there. Read the agreement before you click OK and you won't be in the position you are in. Would be interesting if someone from this business you called "shady" came here considering the circumstances.

 

You keep repeating yourself while ignoring that the OP claims at the time and on the site he signed up for there were no terms citing auto renewal. He was ported to a new site at some point during that year period with new terms, and never notified of those new terms. Assuming OP is accurate with his timeline, he certainly has a legitimate beef in my book.

 

...and yet none of you guys (even the OP) read what was actually signed up for.

 

If you need help, read Post #45 of this thread.

 

Heck, I've made it even easier for you by re-posting the "How To" steps above.

 

The T&C of the site are out there for all to read, you guys just have to take the time to read them.

 

At some point, personal responsibility comes into play, gentlemen.

 

The guy made a mistake. He didn't read what he actually signed up for. It's as simple as that.

 

It's OK to make mistakes...we all make them...so, please stop suggesting this site somehow 'trapped' him...or coerced him into something he didn't agree to.

 

He agreed to getting Billed for the 2nd year...he just won't take the responsibility that goes along saying that he made the mistake. Yet, you guys see an online business model that relies on recurring Revenue projections and streams...and somehow deem this as bad business.

 

This website has done nothing wrong here. Zero.

[DWCobraJR]

If you read that website and are comfortable giving his man your CC......

[Medic]

Just for Jut...

 

Here's the Cancellation Policy from the site the OP signed up for:

 

Cancellation Policy

 

GGswingtipsgolf Memberships

Monthly/Annual membership fees are non-refundable and are charged automatically on each renewal date (i.e. monthly or annually) until you cancel. You may cancel at any time during the month or any point through out the year. Upon cancellation, your Membership will expire 30 days from the last payment. Any amounts paid prior to your cancellation are not refundable. To cancel your Membership, sign into your account on the site. To cancel, you may also send an email to [email protected].

 

I personally have not ever signed up for anything where there wasn't a Terms and Conditions and a Cancellation Policy of some sort. Are we to believe that the above policy wasn't on the site when the OP signed up? Or was it more a case of he didn't bother to read it?

[jut111]

Just for Jut...

 

Here's the Cancellation Policy from the site the OP signed up for:

 

Cancellation Policy

 

GGswingtipsgolf Memberships

Monthly/Annual membership fees are non-refundable and are charged automatically on each renewal date (i.e. monthly or annually) until you cancel. You may cancel at any time during the month or any point through out the year. Upon cancellation, your Membership will expire 30 days from the last payment. Any amounts paid prior to your cancellation are not refundable. To cancel your Membership, sign into your account on the site. To cancel, you may also send an email to [email protected].

 

I personally have not ever signed up for anything where there wasn't a Terms and Conditions and a Cancellation Policy of some sort. Are we to believe that the above policy wasn't on the site when the OP signed up? Or was it more a case of he didn't bother to read it?

 

Are we to believe that a website couldn't have been updated in a years time? I have no idea, and neither do you. But that archived link above seems to concur with the op's version of events.

[anth]

In all likelihood if the site changed their terms and conditions they would have prompted all users next time they logged in to read and accept the new terms. This is also standard practice

[anth]

But it's also not a requirement on the company's behalf. Each time you renew a service you agree to the terms and conditions, even if they've changed. But normal practice is to notify your customers as a courtesy

[raywutang]

jj9000 and medic, you gents are certainly two peas in a pod...im glad you guys know how to properly surf the interwebs and find the current T&C for me, you really opened my eyes to what I was missing...

 

Anth, when I was ported over to the new site, I was never given the new T&C nor did I have to check any boxes when I first logged.

 

SlamMan, thank you so much for finding that link to the original site! That will be very helpful to me and my CC company when I file my dispute on Monday.

 

Yes, the original site doesn't have the most elegant web design and it definitely reads like an infomercial, lol! at least I found the videos helpful to my game.

[SlamMan]

There's nothing wrong with autorenewal but I'd agree that not notifying the customer that an annual subscription is about to renew is shady. For example both XM Radio and GolfNow state on their websites that they send renewal notifications no less than 30 days before renewal. In many states, it's required by law for agreements with renewal periods of a year or longer as I understand.

 

 

SlamMan, thank you so much for finding that link to the original site! That will be very helpful to me and my CC company when I file my dispute on Monday.

 

 

No problem. Considering that Archive.org shows the quote "If at any point you think that this isn't for you- just shoot me an email and I'll give you a full refund." front and center on the home page that pretty much negates any more strict cancellation policy that was on the website then or now, and any argument that comes with it, unless they can show the OP agreed to new t&c after signing up at some point which I'd be willing to bet isn't the case. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[GLG20]

They will fight you on the dispute by the way. They actually sent the credit card company the records of me logging into the site to try and contact them to cancel as proof I was using the site. They had a few records of me being logged in over the course of 6 months prior to renewal and a bunch around cancellation time that all lined up with my email requests that were ignored they said that proved I used the site after cancel date, I was just trying to reach out to them again to cancel, like I did before the renewal date.

 

It's sad. Like I said GG may be a great guy and coach good golfers but he chose some real winners to run his site. And I'll give him some latitude, he's most likely busy doing real instruction that he doesn't even know.

[SwingBlues]

Wow, this is totally, great awesome marketing & exposure for that website. Really makes me want to join. Fantastic. Not.

 

ps good luck with this OP, personally, I would just call the CC company, dispute it and be done with it. Its not the 1st time in the CC business about auto renewals and CC companies lean your way.

[Patrick_O]

UPDATE: nothing from gg yet. according to his instagram story, he's at the gym. probably a gym that auto-renews you for a year that you cant get out of after your initial commitment ends. ill give him a couple days, before i reach out again via instagram. i did get gg's email address from a nice member here, but it is the same exact same email address where i received the crummy customer service from Ronnie, so...yeah.

 

with regard to gym memberships, ive never been to a gym that auto-renews you for another year. it is always you commit for a certain time period, then month-to-month after.

 

My experience is as follows, for those who like to jump down my throat about the T&C:

 

- Oct 2016: Signed up for a year membership at www.ggswingtips.com (you cant even get to this site now, redirects to his new site). This site only offered a yearly membership, if the monthly option was offered I would've much preferred that, but it did not. Filled out my information and provided my CC. I don't remember seeing a checkbox for auto-renewal at the time, bc if I did I certainly would've opt-ed out. I always do this bc a year is a long time, things get forgotten. No T&C page where you check off before signing up officially. Just pay and you are in. I get order confirmation with terms listed (already posted that).

 

- Feb. 2017: New site debuts. His old site is pretty much obsolete, no updates anymore, nothing. At first, I did not have access to the new one, so I had to ask to be moved over. No issues. After that, I started getting emails every week from the site.

 

- Jul. 2017: Emails from site stop for some reason. At this time, I also stopped going to the site, as I was just playing/practicing what I already learned in the prior months.

 

- Oct. 2017: See charge on my CC for an auto-renewal at www.ggswingtips.com (the site that has been completely obsolete in 2017). No renewal notice ever, just a charge on my card. At first, I went to the new site to cancel things, but could not see anywhere to cancel. I had to log back in to the old site, to do this. Weird. Contact support for a refund and they say no due to T&C that was new to me. At same time, they offer me their Platinum package, which I could use my already charged CC funds towards. I say no to their offer and ask again for my refund, answer is no. This went back and forth a few times. Reached out to GG and at same time posted on here to see if anyone else had experienced this with the site.

 

 

It is funny that some of you gents mention gym memberships bc in my exchanges with Ronnie he kept using some gym membership analogy for the site. It didnt make much sense there and doesnt make much sense here.

 

I was never offered any other option but to sign up for the Platinum membership upgrade. If I was given an offer like we have to charge you for a month, and refund the rest, I wouldve been ok with that. However I wasnt, so I felt trapped and scammed out of my hard earned money.

You might want to avoid Anytime Fitness then. Auto renew...

[BiggErn]

UPDATE: nothing from gg yet. according to his instagram story, he's at the gym. probably a gym that auto-renews you for a year that you cant get out of after your initial commitment ends. ill give him a couple days, before i reach out again via instagram. i did get gg's email address from a nice member here, but it is the same exact same email address where i received the crummy customer service from Ronnie, so...yeah.

 

with regard to gym memberships, ive never been to a gym that auto-renews you for another year. it is always you commit for a certain time period, then month-to-month after.

 

My experience is as follows, for those who like to jump down my throat about the T&C:

 

- Oct 2016: Signed up for a year membership at www.ggswingtips.com (you cant even get to this site now, redirects to his new site). This site only offered a yearly membership, if the monthly option was offered I would've much preferred that, but it did not. Filled out my information and provided my CC. I don't remember seeing a checkbox for auto-renewal at the time, bc if I did I certainly would've opt-ed out. I always do this bc a year is a long time, things get forgotten. No T&C page where you check off before signing up officially. Just pay and you are in. I get order confirmation with terms listed (already posted that).

 

- Feb. 2017: New site debuts. His old site is pretty much obsolete, no updates anymore, nothing. At first, I did not have access to the new one, so I had to ask to be moved over. No issues. After that, I started getting emails every week from the site.

 

- Jul. 2017: Emails from site stop for some reason. At this time, I also stopped going to the site, as I was just playing/practicing what I already learned in the prior months.

 

- Oct. 2017: See charge on my CC for an auto-renewal at www.ggswingtips.com (the site that has been completely obsolete in 2017). No renewal notice ever, just a charge on my card. At first, I went to the new site to cancel things, but could not see anywhere to cancel. I had to log back in to the old site, to do this. Weird. Contact support for a refund and they say no due to T&C that was new to me. At same time, they offer me their Platinum package, which I could use my already charged CC funds towards. I say no to their offer and ask again for my refund, answer is no. This went back and forth a few times. Reached out to GG and at same time posted on here to see if anyone else had experienced this with the site.

 

 

It is funny that some of you gents mention gym memberships bc in my exchanges with Ronnie he kept using some gym membership analogy for the site. It didnt make much sense there and doesnt make much sense here.

 

I was never offered any other option but to sign up for the Platinum membership upgrade. If I was given an offer like we have to charge you for a month, and refund the rest, I wouldve been ok with that. However I wasnt, so I felt trapped and scammed out of my hard earned money.

You might want to avoid Anytime Fitness then. Auto renew...

 

Anytime Fitness like many other gyms tell you up front and draft every month. You’re free to cancel at any time. Nothing like this situation.

[pollock21]

Following this train wreck and I'm biting. First off, not sure why so many are so passionate to slam the OP, right or wrong, this is an internet discussion forum. He's asking for opinions and advice. Secondly, let's not confuse legality with ethics.

 

You can shear a sheep many times, but skin it only once. We as consumers have the ultimate say in whether or not a business is successful, as we get to choose where we spend our money. Customer service is vital in retaining customers. Sometimes you work with someone and hope to retain their business.

 

Anyone quoting T&C's from ggswingtipsgolf.com is out of line, OP signed up at the old site ggswingtips.com. OP also stated that at some mid point of his subsciption, the old site went obsolete and he didn't even have a log in or his information auto transferred to the new site. If they didn't even move his information over, do you think they sent him new T&C's?

 

He would also likely be grandfathered in to his previous agreement until he auto-renewed.

 

I'm not speaking negatively against any party here, but it sounds to me like something was certainly lost in the website switchover. Honestly, I'd expect that they would have notified all paying members that there was going to be a website change.

 

As for hammering the OP on T&C's, lighten up a little. Almost everything we buy these days comes with T&C's. The company is completely within their right to step away from those and help a customer out if they choose to operate in an ethical fashion. The company can also stand behind their T&C's and operate in a strictly legal fashion with little regard for customer satisfaction. I won't do business with the latter.

 

What if your driver failed two days after the warranty expired, you call up the manufacturer and they tell you to go kick rocks, how would you feel about that? Compare that to a company that said no problem, we'll get you taken care of. In one case you'd likely choose to never do business with that company again, in the other you'd likely buy with 100% confidence from that day forward.

 

Whoever runs this site is certainly within their rights (assuming the new T&C's were ever really sent to the OP with the website changeover), but it doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.