Best Rain gear

[Unteachable]

> @Minarets said:

> > @Unteachable said:

> > > @Minarets said:

> > > > @spineshank said:

> > > > Wow. I ordered my Proquip stuff last Tuesday, so May 7th and got them for the UK prices.

> > >

> > > Lucky SOB.

> > > I’m likely gonna pony up $700ish for a PX6 jacket and PX5 pants unless anyone can tell me why I should get PX6 pants?

> >

> > Proquip -the us site- is doing a 25% off sale for the pga championship

>

> Code? Or it will start later? Shows regular pricing for me on their site.

 

PGA25

[Minarets]

> @Unteachable said:

> > @Minarets said:

> > > @Unteachable said:

> > > > @Minarets said:

> > > > > @spineshank said:

> > > > > Wow. I ordered my Proquip stuff last Tuesday, so May 7th and got them for the UK prices.

> > > >

> > > > Lucky SOB.

> > > > I’m likely gonna pony up $700ish for a PX6 jacket and PX5 pants unless anyone can tell me why I should get PX6 pants?

> > >

> > > Proquip -the us site- is doing a 25% off sale for the pga championship

> >

> > Code? Or it will start later? Shows regular pricing for me on their site.

>

> PGA25

 

Thanks

[chris975d]

> @soonernick said:

> > @chris975d said:

> > Has ended up better than my Kjus Dexters, and Kjus themselves have recently confirmed my suspicion that the Dexter is only meant for minimal exposure/emergency situations, and not designed for long term use in the rain. It's basically to pack in your golf bag and get you back to the clubhouse in a rainstorm type of stuff.

>

> Chris, thanks again for all your help.

>

> Quick concern I have based on the above comment. I have an 8-day Scotland trip coming up in July and then Bandon in October. Based on review of this thread, I bought the KJus Dexter 2.5 half zip on sale a couple months back and had hoped that (and an older Footjoy rain shirt to wear over it in heavy rain/emergency) would get me thru Scotland and then make a determination if I needed something stronger for Bandon... Reading your comment on the Dexter, do I need to just go ahead and buy a PX6 or Zero Restriction Power Torque to be prepared for both trips?

>

> I have ProQuip pants from a couple of generations ago so I should hopefully be good there.

>

 

Definitely do not expect the Dexter to keep out any sustained rain, or even short bursts of heavy rain. It's classified as an "emergency piece", designed to maybe get you back to the clubhouse. If you're headed somewhere where rain is a common occurrence, I wouldn't even have the Dexter in my bag. My lightweight/packable piece for that role would be the PING Zero Gravity.

[stevopagolf]

I have the ProQuip Stormforce PX5. Just a great jacket. Golf Support has them for under $150

[Minarets]

Chris, did you ever end up getting to use the FJ dryjoy LTS tour? Love the stretch but wondering how good it is compared to the PX5 or PX6. Better value price wise if it’s as good at keeping water out.

[fredstar]

> @chris975d said:

> > @soonernick said:

> > > @chris975d said:

> > > Has ended up better than my Kjus Dexters, and Kjus themselves have recently confirmed my suspicion that the Dexter is only meant for minimal exposure/emergency situations, and not designed for long term use in the rain. It's basically to pack in your golf bag and get you back to the clubhouse in a rainstorm type of stuff.

> >

> > Chris, thanks again for all your help.

> >

> > Quick concern I have based on the above comment. I have an 8-day Scotland trip coming up in July and then Bandon in October. Based on review of this thread, I bought the KJus Dexter 2.5 half zip on sale a couple months back and had hoped that (and an older Footjoy rain shirt to wear over it in heavy rain/emergency) would get me thru Scotland and then make a determination if I needed something stronger for Bandon... Reading your comment on the Dexter, do I need to just go ahead and buy a PX6 or Zero Restriction Power Torque to be prepared for both trips?

> >

> > I have ProQuip pants from a couple of generations ago so I should hopefully be good there.

> >

>

> Definitely do not expect the Dexter to keep out any sustained rain, or even short bursts of heavy rain. It's classified as an "emergency piece", designed to maybe get you back to the clubhouse. If you're headed somewhere where rain is a common occurrence, I wouldn't even have the Dexter in my bag. My lightweight/packable piece for that role would be the PING Zero Gravity.

 

So then the Dexter line isn't actually waterproof? Why do they advertise it as such and charge $350? I may have well bought a $30 windbreaker then..

[chris975d]

> @fredstar said:

> > @chris975d said:

> > > @soonernick said:

> > > > @chris975d said:

> > > > Has ended up better than my Kjus Dexters, and Kjus themselves have recently confirmed my suspicion that the Dexter is only meant for minimal exposure/emergency situations, and not designed for long term use in the rain. It's basically to pack in your golf bag and get you back to the clubhouse in a rainstorm type of stuff.

> > >

> > > Chris, thanks again for all your help.

> > >

> > > Quick concern I have based on the above comment. I have an 8-day Scotland trip coming up in July and then Bandon in October. Based on review of this thread, I bought the KJus Dexter 2.5 half zip on sale a couple months back and had hoped that (and an older Footjoy rain shirt to wear over it in heavy rain/emergency) would get me thru Scotland and then make a determination if I needed something stronger for Bandon... Reading your comment on the Dexter, do I need to just go ahead and buy a PX6 or Zero Restriction Power Torque to be prepared for both trips?

> > >

> > > I have ProQuip pants from a couple of generations ago so I should hopefully be good there.

> > >

> >

> > Definitely do not expect the Dexter to keep out any sustained rain, or even short bursts of heavy rain. It's classified as an "emergency piece", designed to maybe get you back to the clubhouse. If you're headed somewhere where rain is a common occurrence, I wouldn't even have the Dexter in my bag. My lightweight/packable piece for that role would be the PING Zero Gravity.

>

> So then the Dexter line isn't actually waterproof? Why do they advertise it as such and charge $350? I may have well bought a $30 windbreaker then..

 

I think it's this thread, but if you search my posts, you can see photos of what it looks like when water comes directly through it after about 20 minutes in a heavy rain. Water will come through the garment directly, or at least did mine, and at least a couple of others who have contacted me via message directly.

[fredstar]

> @chris975d said:

> > @fredstar said:

> > > @chris975d said:

> > > > @soonernick said:

> > > > > @chris975d said:

> > > > > Has ended up better than my Kjus Dexters, and Kjus themselves have recently confirmed my suspicion that the Dexter is only meant for minimal exposure/emergency situations, and not designed for long term use in the rain. It's basically to pack in your golf bag and get you back to the clubhouse in a rainstorm type of stuff.

> > > >

> > > > Chris, thanks again for all your help.

> > > >

> > > > Quick concern I have based on the above comment. I have an 8-day Scotland trip coming up in July and then Bandon in October. Based on review of this thread, I bought the KJus Dexter 2.5 half zip on sale a couple months back and had hoped that (and an older Footjoy rain shirt to wear over it in heavy rain/emergency) would get me thru Scotland and then make a determination if I needed something stronger for Bandon... Reading your comment on the Dexter, do I need to just go ahead and buy a PX6 or Zero Restriction Power Torque to be prepared for both trips?

> > > >

> > > > I have ProQuip pants from a couple of generations ago so I should hopefully be good there.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Definitely do not expect the Dexter to keep out any sustained rain, or even short bursts of heavy rain. It's classified as an "emergency piece", designed to maybe get you back to the clubhouse. If you're headed somewhere where rain is a common occurrence, I wouldn't even have the Dexter in my bag. My lightweight/packable piece for that role would be the PING Zero Gravity.

> >

> > So then the Dexter line isn't actually waterproof? Why do they advertise it as such and charge $350? I may have well bought a $30 windbreaker then..

>

> I think it's this thread, but if you search my posts, you can see photos of what it looks like when water comes directly through it after about 20 minutes in a heavy rain. Water will come through the garment directly, or at least did mine, and at least a couple of others who have contacted me via message directly.

 

Wow that sucks! Ordered one for my next Scotland trip, glad I didn't offload my Galvin Green Alon.

[soonernick]

 

> > > @chris975d said:

> Definitely do not expect the Dexter to keep out any sustained rain, or even short bursts of heavy rain. It's classified as an "emergency piece", designed to maybe get you back to the clubhouse. If you're headed somewhere where rain is a common occurrence, I wouldn't even have the Dexter in my bag. My lightweight/packable piece for that role would be the PING Zero Gravity.

 

So I'm resigned to the fact that the KJUS Dexter isn't going to be enough for my upcoming trips and have committed to buying something stronger in case I get caught playing in a sustained rain. Here is where I'm at in my purchase options if any of you guys have any thoughts:

1. ProQuip PX6: I think this would the consensus purchase for this message board. Biggest issue I have is I sat on the golfsupport.com deal thinking I had enough coverage, now I'm too annoyed to pay twice as much ($420) for a jacket I could've gotten 3 weeks ago. Also, it's obviously not as important as the waterproofness and breathability, but I've never loved the looks of the PX5 or PX6.

2. Zero Restriction: The Power Torque is my favorite in the looks department by far. I like the price ($250) but I am concerned about the waterproofness at 15,000 MM/ 10,000 G/M2. Is this enough for summer in Scotland and Fall in Bandon? If it is this is likely the jacket I buy.

3. Cross Sportswear: I am only aware of Cross from the Not allowed because of spam buying guide that has the Cross Edge ranked No. 1. I don't see a ton of reviews for Cross on this board, but after perusing their website I like what I see. The M Edge has big time waterproofness (20 000 mm/ 20 000 g/m2), stonewash looks good, and price ($319) is not wonderful but not prohibitive. Another variable with Cross though is they have the M Pro Jacket in a couple of less desirable colors on sale for $128. The M Pro has the same water/breathability rating (20 000 mm/ 20 000 g/m2) and for that price savings I may be willing to wear a jacket designed by the people that design John Daly's pants. The question though, is this a PX5/PX6 situation where the Edge is just the newer version of the Pro and they are essentially the same jacket? If that's the case I think I just need to buy the Pro and move on.

4. This probably isn't a realistic option, but I like the looks a ton: https://www.petermillar.com/p/albatross-three-layer-rain-jacket-ms19ez10.html?parameter=crawl&gclid=Cj0KCQjwt_nmBRD0ARIsAJYs6o0_phU9xUYvgBPerAYnLDU9N4mN8ErAMRfwqR2QDQyv-pLTTfCC01YaAmQbEALw_wcB Does anyone know of how I could find out the waterproof rating on something like this? Or is it even worth researching? My assumption is that this is likely no better quality than the lowest level Under Armour type and only priced with the better quality because of branding, but I really have no idea.

 

If anyone has thoughts I really appreciate it. Sorry for the long post and thanks again in advance!

[jwortsman]

> @Minarets said:

> > @spineshank said:

> > Wow. I ordered my Proquip stuff last Tuesday, so May 7th and got them for the UK prices.

>

> Lucky SOB.

> I’m likely gonna pony up $700ish for a PX6 jacket and PX5 pants unless anyone can tell me why I should get PX6 pants?

 

If you're interested in some PX5 pants worn once, PM me> @soonernick said:

>

> > > > @chris975d said:

> > Definitely do not expect the Dexter to keep out any sustained rain, or even short bursts of heavy rain. It's classified as an "emergency piece", designed to maybe get you back to the clubhouse. If you're headed somewhere where rain is a common occurrence, I wouldn't even have the Dexter in my bag. My lightweight/packable piece for that role would be the PING Zero Gravity.

>

> So I'm resigned to the fact that the KJUS Dexter isn't going to be enough for my upcoming trips and have committed to buying something stronger in case I get caught playing in a sustained rain. Here is where I'm at in my purchase options if any of you guys have any thoughts:

> 1. ProQuip PX6: I think this would the consensus purchase for this message board. Biggest issue I have is I sat on the golfsupport.com deal thinking I had enough coverage, now I'm too annoyed to pay twice as much ($420) for a jacket I could've gotten 3 weeks ago. Also, it's obviously not as important as the waterproofness and breathability, but I've never loved the looks of the PX5 or PX6.

> 2. Zero Restriction: The Power Torque is my favorite in the looks department by far. I like the price ($250) but I am concerned about the waterproofness at 15,000 MM/ 10,000 G/M2. Is this enough for summer in Scotland and Fall in Bandon? If it is this is likely the jacket I buy.

> 3. Cross Sportswear: I am only aware of Cross from the **** buying guide that has the Cross Edge ranked No. 1. I don't see a ton of reviews for Cross on this board, but after perusing their website I like what I see. The M Edge has big time waterproofness (20 000 mm/ 20 000 g/m2), stonewash looks good, and price ($319) is not wonderful but not prohibitive. Another variable with Cross though is they have the M Pro Jacket in a couple of less desirable colors on sale for $128. The M Pro has the same water/breathability rating (20 000 mm/ 20 000 g/m2) and for that price savings I may be willing to wear a jacket designed by the people that design John Daly's pants. The question though, is this a PX5/PX6 situation where the Edge is just the newer version of the Pro and they are essentially the same jacket? If that's the case I think I just need to buy the Pro and move on.

> 4. This probably isn't a realistic option, but I like the looks a ton: https://www.petermillar.com/p/albatross-three-layer-rain-jacket-ms19ez10.html?parameter=crawl&gclid=Cj0KCQjwt_nmBRD0ARIsAJYs6o0_phU9xUYvgBPerAYnLDU9N4mN8ErAMRfwqR2QDQyv-pLTTfCC01YaAmQbEALw_wcB Does anyone know of how I could find out the waterproof rating on something like this? Or is it even worth researching? My assumption is that this is likely no better quality than the lowest level Under Armour type and only priced with the better quality because of branding, but I really have no idea.

>

> If anyone has thoughts I really appreciate it. Sorry for the long post and thanks again in advance!

 

May not help, but I had last years version of the Peter Millar rain pants (wish I had kept them) and believe they were rated at 20k/20k. I can't imagine they would have downgraded

[DrDon]

I think that the Cross Sportswear M Pro jackets that are 'on sale' look really sharp. For $128, these jackets might be a great bargain.

 

It would be nice to get a user's review of Cross Sportswear's rain jackets.

[Minarets]

So any more thoughts on the new FJ LTS tour?

[soonernick]

> @jwortsman said:

> May not help, but I had last years version of the Peter Millar rain pants (wish I had kept them) and believe they were rated at 20k/20k. I can't imagine they would have downgraded

Thanks for the head’s up. I just emailed Peter Miller to see if they have a rating on that jacket, if it’s similar to your pants that may be an option.

 

[chris975d]

> @Minarets said:

> So any more thoughts on the new FJ LTS tour?

I still like the LTS. The fabric isn't quite as supple as some others, but overall it's a good piece if you don't have to pay full retail.

 

[RickK]

I guess what it comes down to for me is pretty simple.....

Is the rain gear you are buying "waterproof for LIFE" or simply for a few years? What does the guarantee say? If not for life, I am not buying it.

I bought a Macgregor GoreTex rain suit back in 1989 (could have been 90). I don't wear it to play golf anymore but I keep it in my truck in case I get caught out in the rain. Wore it 3 times this year and it kept me dry every time. Pretty good for around 20 year old stuff.

I bought a really nice looking Dryjoy rain jacket in the early 2000s. It was waterproof for maybe close to 2 years and then I got soaked in a golf tournament in a pouring rain. Ordered some new Zero Restriction stuff that night and been dry on the golf course ever since.

[aiyyer]

Kjus Pro 3L jacket ($79 at Sierra) worked flawlessly at Whistling Straits earlier this week. Got stuck in driving wind and rain for five holes and no issues at all.

[chris975d]

> @RickKimbrell said:

> I guess what it comes down to for me is pretty simple.....

> Is the rain gear you are buying "waterproof for LIFE" or simply for a few years? What does the guarantee say? If not for life, I am not buying it.

> I bought a Macgregor GoreTex rain suit back in 1989 (could have been 90). I don't wear it to play golf anymore but I keep it in my truck in case I get caught out in the rain. Wore it 3 times this year and it kept me dry every time. Pretty good for around 20 year old stuff.

> I bought a really nice looking Dryjoy rain jacket in the early 2000s. It was waterproof for maybe close to 2 years and then I got soaked in a golf tournament in a pouring rain. Ordered some new Zero Restriction stuff that night and been dry on the golf course ever since.

 

Remember that GoreTex actually isn't "guaranteed/waterproof for life" in the way that most people interpret that marketing phrase. It's the "useful life of the product", which has no set time, can be 2 years or 10, and is all dependant on how much you use it. It's not the life of the buyer, as many people incorrectly assume...granted, the marketing catch phrase is worded the way it is because they know this is how people will interpret it. There is a period that can pass where GoreTex does not warranty it. You can find this out in testimonials on outdoor gear sites, and even in my own conversations with manufacturers reps of GoreTex containing apparel. It's a marketing catch phrase, nothing more. I've posted more in depth on this and even posted links in some of the rain gear threads here (maybe even in this thread). Gore alone gets to determine the warranty length as they get to say what the "useful life of the product" is, and whether you have worn it out or not. When they make that determination, there is no warranty. Again, you can find cases where they have denied warranty coverage. Now, a manufacturer can offer their own warranty above and beyond the Gore industries warranty, but not many actually do anymore.

 

 

[C_rad]

> @aiyyer said:

> Kjus Pro 3L jacket ($79 at Sierra) worked flawlessly at Whistling Straits earlier this week. Got stuck in driving wind and rain for five holes and no issues at all.

 

Good deal

[cristphoto]

A Zero Restriction Goretex product still carries a lifetime waterproof guarantee. I purchased my last jacket from them last year and the tag clearly states this (as does their website as of today). There are a few exceptions. Serious misuse of the product or tears in the product will void the guarantee. This is likely not to occur to most people as rain gear is not typically used on a daily basis. I actually contacted Zero Restriction a while back when this topic surfaced. They were clear that with a few exceptions their goretex products are lifetime guarantee. They even added if the product gets a rip in the fabric to send it back to them and there is a special process to repair it. It may not be cosmetically perfect but by sending it back it keeps the guarantee intact. As previous posts have stated this makes a goretex product a good investment. Paying prices comparable to goretex but only having a two or three year guarantee seems a poor decision. I am speculating here but if a company knows how long a product will last part of their marketing should be to offer a guarantee comparable to its quality.

[chris975d]

> @cristphoto said:

> A Zero Restriction Goretex product still carries a lifetime waterproof guarantee. I purchased my last jacket from them last year and the tag clearly states this (as does their website as of today). There are a few exceptions. Serious misuse of the product or tears in the product will void the guarantee. This is likely not to occur to most people as rain gear is not typically used on a daily basis. I actually contacted Zero Restriction a while back when this topic surfaced. They were clear that with a few exceptions their goretex products are lifetime guarantee. They even added if the product gets a rip in the fabric to send it back to them and there is a special process to repair it. It may not be cosmetically perfect but by sending it back it keeps the guarantee intact. As previous posts have stated this makes a goretex product a good investment. Paying prices comparable to goretex but only having a two or three year guarantee seems a poor decision. I am speculating here but if a company knows how long a product will last part of their marketing should be to offer a guarantee comparable to its quality.

 

As I stated, a label maker (Zero Restriction) can offer a warranty over and above that of GoreTex, but a garment simply being made if GoreTex material does not automatically give it a "lifetime guarantee" in the way that people interpret that. GoreTex even says such on their own website if you dig.

 

So basically it's better to buy a manufacturer that you trust, and one that has shown they will stand behind their product if you have (legitimate) issues. I've had no trouble getting replacement FootJoy waterproof garments when I or my customers have had issues with them, Under Armour as well. Zero Restriction is another good one, as I've been dealing with them for 25 years...way back when they were Red Lion Manufacturing.

 

Buy the maker of the garment, not the material...to a certain extent. Of course look for those garments with superior/leading tech material, but also look at how the company supports their products too. If they have a good history of doing so, don't let the presence or lack of "Goretex" be the sole deciding factor. I've been selling, using, and supporting this stuff far too long not to have seen that GoreTex is no magical material, and isn't technically better than any other well built product using the advanced technology that's out there in this space.

[Brick Tamland]

I got my Kjus Pro 3L II pants and Kjus Dexter half-zip last weekend. Yesterday it was about 43 degrees, very windy, with precipitation that I would classify as a "driving mist." The kind that feels like needles when it hits your face with a few heavier drops mixed in. I figured it would be a good opportunity to test my new gear so I bundled up, drove my cart up to the course, and putzed around on the short range for half an hour. I had sweats under the rain pants and an RLX stretch wool jacket underneath the jacket. Admittedly it wasn't heavy rain but I'm really happy with how everything performed. The pants are clearly heavier duty than the jacket but still easy to move in and quiet. The jacket is feather light, stretches well, and kept me perfectly dry. I was plenty warm also, both pieces did a good job with the wind. I will be keeping my eye out for a deal on a Kjus Pro 3L jacket, or may look for a different heavier duty jacket when I'm in Scotland next month.

[Minarets]

Hmm just got feedback from

Pro quip that the PX5 is no longer being made and only the PX6 is available in its place. Didn’t know that. Thought both were options. Oh, well this keep getting more expensive as I go.

[C_rad]

For those who tried the px1 proquip and in fact any of these jacket, how restricted the swing do they? I have a mizuno jacket and it is uncomfortable swinging in it.

[RickK]

> @chris975d said:

> > @RickKimbrell said:

> > I guess what it comes down to for me is pretty simple.....

> > Is the rain gear you are buying "waterproof for LIFE" or simply for a few years? What does the guarantee say? If not for life, I am not buying it.

> > I bought a Macgregor GoreTex rain suit back in 1989 (could have been 90). I don't wear it to play golf anymore but I keep it in my truck in case I get caught out in the rain. Wore it 3 times this year and it kept me dry every time. Pretty good for around 20 year old stuff.

> > I bought a really nice looking Dryjoy rain jacket in the early 2000s. It was waterproof for maybe close to 2 years and then I got soaked in a golf tournament in a pouring rain. Ordered some new Zero Restriction stuff that night and been dry on the golf course ever since.

>

> Remember that GoreTex actually isn't "guaranteed/waterproof for life" in the way that most people interpret that marketing phrase. It's the "useful life of the product", which has no set time, can be 2 years or 10, and is all dependant on how much you use it. It's not the life of the buyer, as many people incorrectly assume...granted, the marketing catch phrase is worded the way it is because they know this is how people will interpret it. There is a period that can pass where GoreTex does not warranty it. You can find this out in testimonials on outdoor gear sites, and even in my own conversations with manufacturers reps of GoreTex containing apparel. It's a marketing catch phrase, nothing more. I've posted more in depth on this and even posted links in some of the rain gear threads here (maybe even in this thread). Gore alone gets to determine the warranty length as they get to say what the "useful life of the product" is, and whether you have worn it out or not. When they make that determination, there is no warranty. Again, you can find cases where they have denied warranty coverage. Now, a manufacturer can offer their own warranty above and beyond the Gore industries warranty, but not many actually do anymore.

>

>

 

Even so, it damn sure stays waterproof longer than anything else I have ever tried. So, why spend money on something 2 or 3 times when you can buy the best I have ever found and stick with it?

[soonernick]

> @soonernick said:

> > @jwortsman said:

> > May not help, but I had last years version of the Peter Millar rain pants (wish I had kept them) and believe they were rated at 20k/20k. I can't imagine they would have downgraded

> Thanks for the head’s up. I just emailed Peter Miller to see if they have a rating on that jacket, if it’s similar to your pants that may be an option.

>

So I just got an email back from Peter Millar, they say their Albatross waterproof jacket "waterproof rating is 20,000+ mm/24r and the breathability rating is 30,000+ g/m2/24hr". That's pretty impressive, I had really only considered specialty brands.

[chris975d]

> @RickKimbrell said:

> > @chris975d said:

> > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > I guess what it comes down to for me is pretty simple.....

> > > Is the rain gear you are buying "waterproof for LIFE" or simply for a few years? What does the guarantee say? If not for life, I am not buying it.

> > > I bought a Macgregor GoreTex rain suit back in 1989 (could have been 90). I don't wear it to play golf anymore but I keep it in my truck in case I get caught out in the rain. Wore it 3 times this year and it kept me dry every time. Pretty good for around 20 year old stuff.

> > > I bought a really nice looking Dryjoy rain jacket in the early 2000s. It was waterproof for maybe close to 2 years and then I got soaked in a golf tournament in a pouring rain. Ordered some new Zero Restriction stuff that night and been dry on the golf course ever since.

> >

> > Remember that GoreTex actually isn't "guaranteed/waterproof for life" in the way that most people interpret that marketing phrase. It's the "useful life of the product", which has no set time, can be 2 years or 10, and is all dependant on how much you use it. It's not the life of the buyer, as many people incorrectly assume...granted, the marketing catch phrase is worded the way it is because they know this is how people will interpret it. There is a period that can pass where GoreTex does not warranty it. You can find this out in testimonials on outdoor gear sites, and even in my own conversations with manufacturers reps of GoreTex containing apparel. It's a marketing catch phrase, nothing more. I've posted more in depth on this and even posted links in some of the rain gear threads here (maybe even in this thread). Gore alone gets to determine the warranty length as they get to say what the "useful life of the product" is, and whether you have worn it out or not. When they make that determination, there is no warranty. Again, you can find cases where they have denied warranty coverage. Now, a manufacturer can offer their own warranty above and beyond the Gore industries warranty, but not many actually do anymore.

> >

> >

>

> Even so, it **** sure stays waterproof longer than anything else I have ever tried. So, why spend money on something 2 or 3 times when you can buy the best I have ever found and stick with it?

 

I know people have their own personal anecdotes about raingear, but I've been selling it and using it in ways that golfers never would come close to, and honestly....anything with an equivalent rating to that of GoreTex (20K and up) just doesn't fail on the waterproofing side. Making something waterproof isn't rocket science anymore. I mean, even with GoreTex, you're talking about taking a teflon sheet and heat/mechanical bonding it to a thin fabric (this would be the exterior)...it's basically plastic-lined apparel. That's not hard to do. What's harder is to make something that's waterproof with a significant amount of stretch, and that can breathe. Those are where Gore have been passed by in many instances. I've owned and tried every major brand out there, GoreTex or not, and as long as it's bought from a reputable company, NONE of it has ever failed in terms of waterproofing. I've bought almost $10,000 (retail) in raingear in the past few years just buying, testing, etc...I like apparel. And been doing that for many years, so I can pretty safely say I've tried almost everything out there. I can unequivocally say that if you buy something from a stand up company with a 20K rating or more, you're not getting wet. I know of no company with 20K/25K/30K ratings where you'd have to buy "2 or 3 times"....that's just not going to happen. Now, back in the day when garments didn't specify rating, or tell you the type of tech used for water resistance...aka, membrane, DWR only, etc.. (this is where many of the FootJoy old wives tales come from..."waterproofs" that didn't use membranes), you might get something that wouldn't last in terms of keeping you dry. But today, you can even safely buy FootJoy without fear of the waterproof membrane failing..unless of course you tear/puncture it somehow, which will defeat any waterproof...even the mythical GoreTex. Talk to people in the industry that sell this stuff (including reps of companies that use GoreTex)...they will tell you how much of a great job of marketing Gore has done to spin info and dupe the common consumer into thinking that GoreTex is the only thing that can keep you dry. It's a great product, don't get me wrong. But it's not the best/end all, be all, heck, it's 40-50 year old tech. There's a reason GoreTex containing apparel costs so much...and it's not related to the tech put into it...it's the stupidly high licensing and other fees that have to be paid to Gore use it. When other companies can put that money into actual membrane and waterproofing tech advancements.

 

Again, GoreTex is great at keeping you dry, not ever going to argue that point. I myself own plenty. But spending similar money on non-GoreTex products from reputable companies shouldn't scare anyone in the slightest...no one is going to spend GoreTex money 2 or 3 times because something fails. That's just not going to happen short of a manufacturing flaw that shows up well within the warranty period.

[RickK]

> @chris975d said:

> > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > @chris975d said:

> > > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > > I guess what it comes down to for me is pretty simple.....

> > > > Is the rain gear you are buying "waterproof for LIFE" or simply for a few years? What does the guarantee say? If not for life, I am not buying it.

> > > > I bought a Macgregor GoreTex rain suit back in 1989 (could have been 90). I don't wear it to play golf anymore but I keep it in my truck in case I get caught out in the rain. Wore it 3 times this year and it kept me dry every time. Pretty good for around 20 year old stuff.

> > > > I bought a really nice looking Dryjoy rain jacket in the early 2000s. It was waterproof for maybe close to 2 years and then I got soaked in a golf tournament in a pouring rain. Ordered some new Zero Restriction stuff that night and been dry on the golf course ever since.

> > >

> > > Remember that GoreTex actually isn't "guaranteed/waterproof for life" in the way that most people interpret that marketing phrase. It's the "useful life of the product", which has no set time, can be 2 years or 10, and is all dependant on how much you use it. It's not the life of the buyer, as many people incorrectly assume...granted, the marketing catch phrase is worded the way it is because they know this is how people will interpret it. There is a period that can pass where GoreTex does not warranty it. You can find this out in testimonials on outdoor gear sites, and even in my own conversations with manufacturers reps of GoreTex containing apparel. It's a marketing catch phrase, nothing more. I've posted more in depth on this and even posted links in some of the rain gear threads here (maybe even in this thread). Gore alone gets to determine the warranty length as they get to say what the "useful life of the product" is, and whether you have worn it out or not. When they make that determination, there is no warranty. Again, you can find cases where they have denied warranty coverage. Now, a manufacturer can offer their own warranty above and beyond the Gore industries warranty, but not many actually do anymore.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Even so, it **** sure stays waterproof longer than anything else I have ever tried. So, why spend money on something 2 or 3 times when you can buy the best I have ever found and stick with it?

>

> I know people have their own personal anecdotes about raingear, but I've been selling it and using it in ways that golfers never would come close to, and honestly....anything with an equivalent rating to that of GoreTex (20K and up) just doesn't fail on the waterproofing side. Making something waterproof isn't rocket science anymore. I mean, even with GoreTex, you're talking about taking a teflon sheet and heat/mechanical bonding it to a thin fabric (this would be the exterior)...it's basically plastic-lined apparel. That's not hard to do. What's harder is to make something that's waterproof with a significant amount of stretch, and that can breathe. Those are where Gore have been passed by in many instances. I've owned and tried every major brand out there, GoreTex or not, and as long as it's bought from a reputable company, NONE of it has ever failed in terms of waterproofing. I've bought almost $10,000 (retail) in raingear in the past few years just buying, testing, etc...I like apparel. And been doing that for many years, so I can pretty safely say I've tried almost everything out there. I can unequivocally say that if you buy something from a stand up company with a 20K rating or more, you're not getting wet. I know of no company with 20K/25K/30K ratings where you'd have to buy "2 or 3 times"....that's just not going to happen. Now, back in the day when garments didn't specify rating, or tell you the type of tech used for water resistance...aka, membrane, DWR only, etc.. (this is where many of the FootJoy old wives tales come from..."waterproofs" that didn't use membranes), you might get something that wouldn't last in terms of keeping you dry. But today, you can even safely buy FootJoy without fear of the waterproof membrane failing..unless of course you tear/puncture it somehow, which will defeat any waterproof...even the mythical GoreTex. Talk to people in the industry that sell this stuff (including reps of companies that use GoreTex)...they will tell you how much of a great job of marketing Gore has done to spin info and dupe the common consumer into thinking that GoreTex is the only thing that can keep you dry. It's a great product, don't get me wrong. But it's not the best/end all, be all, heck, it's 40-50 year old tech. There's a reason GoreTex containing apparel costs so much...and it's not related to the tech put into it...it's the stupidly high licensing and other fees that have to be paid to Gore use it. When other companies can put that money into actual membrane and waterproofing tech advancements.

>

> Again, GoreTex is great at keeping you dry, not ever going to argue that point. I myself own plenty. But spending similar money on non-GoreTex products from reputable companies shouldn't scare anyone in the slightest...no one is going to spend GoreTex money 2 or 3 times because something fails. That's just not going to happen short of a manufacturing flaw that shows up well within the warranty period.

 

Ok, so simple question(s) then....

Footjoy basically states they have a 2 year warranty. If they have improved their product, they still only have a 2 year warranty.

Tell me the best waterproof warranty of any golf rain gear you have purchased in that 10grand retail you have spent.

And, what was the best rain gear in terms of keeping you dry that you bought.

I am talking brands now...not what it is made of.

 

[Minarets]

> @soonernick said:

> > @soonernick said:

> > > @jwortsman said:

> > > May not help, but I had last years version of the Peter Millar rain pants (wish I had kept them) and believe they were rated at 20k/20k. I can't imagine they would have downgraded

> > Thanks for the head’s up. I just emailed Peter Miller to see if they have a rating on that jacket, if it’s similar to your pants that may be an option.

> >

> So I just got an email back from Peter Millar, they say their Albatross waterproof jacket "waterproof rating is 20,000+ mm/24r and the breathability rating is 30,000+ g/m2/24hr". That's pretty impressive, I had really only considered specialty brands.

 

And compared to the specialty brands it’s considerably cheaper. Hmmm

[chris975d]

> @RickKimbrell said:

> > @chris975d said:

> > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > > @chris975d said:

> > > > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > > > I guess what it comes down to for me is pretty simple.....

> > > > > Is the rain gear you are buying "waterproof for LIFE" or simply for a few years? What does the guarantee say? If not for life, I am not buying it.

> > > > > I bought a Macgregor GoreTex rain suit back in 1989 (could have been 90). I don't wear it to play golf anymore but I keep it in my truck in case I get caught out in the rain. Wore it 3 times this year and it kept me dry every time. Pretty good for around 20 year old stuff.

> > > > > I bought a really nice looking Dryjoy rain jacket in the early 2000s. It was waterproof for maybe close to 2 years and then I got soaked in a golf tournament in a pouring rain. Ordered some new Zero Restriction stuff that night and been dry on the golf course ever since.

> > > >

> > > > Remember that GoreTex actually isn't "guaranteed/waterproof for life" in the way that most people interpret that marketing phrase. It's the "useful life of the product", which has no set time, can be 2 years or 10, and is all dependant on how much you use it. It's not the life of the buyer, as many people incorrectly assume...granted, the marketing catch phrase is worded the way it is because they know this is how people will interpret it. There is a period that can pass where GoreTex does not warranty it. You can find this out in testimonials on outdoor gear sites, and even in my own conversations with manufacturers reps of GoreTex containing apparel. It's a marketing catch phrase, nothing more. I've posted more in depth on this and even posted links in some of the rain gear threads here (maybe even in this thread). Gore alone gets to determine the warranty length as they get to say what the "useful life of the product" is, and whether you have worn it out or not. When they make that determination, there is no warranty. Again, you can find cases where they have denied warranty coverage. Now, a manufacturer can offer their own warranty above and beyond the Gore industries warranty, but not many actually do anymore.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Even so, it **** sure stays waterproof longer than anything else I have ever tried. So, why spend money on something 2 or 3 times when you can buy the best I have ever found and stick with it?

> >

> > I know people have their own personal anecdotes about raingear, but I've been selling it and using it in ways that golfers never would come close to, and honestly....anything with an equivalent rating to that of GoreTex (20K and up) just doesn't fail on the waterproofing side. Making something waterproof isn't rocket science anymore. I mean, even with GoreTex, you're talking about taking a teflon sheet and heat/mechanical bonding it to a thin fabric (this would be the exterior)...it's basically plastic-lined apparel. That's not hard to do. What's harder is to make something that's waterproof with a significant amount of stretch, and that can breathe. Those are where Gore have been passed by in many instances. I've owned and tried every major brand out there, GoreTex or not, and as long as it's bought from a reputable company, NONE of it has ever failed in terms of waterproofing. I've bought almost $10,000 (retail) in raingear in the past few years just buying, testing, etc...I like apparel. And been doing that for many years, so I can pretty safely say I've tried almost everything out there. I can unequivocally say that if you buy something from a stand up company with a 20K rating or more, you're not getting wet. I know of no company with 20K/25K/30K ratings where you'd have to buy "2 or 3 times"....that's just not going to happen. Now, back in the day when garments didn't specify rating, or tell you the type of tech used for water resistance...aka, membrane, DWR only, etc.. (this is where many of the FootJoy old wives tales come from..."waterproofs" that didn't use membranes), you might get something that wouldn't last in terms of keeping you dry. But today, you can even safely buy FootJoy without fear of the waterproof membrane failing..unless of course you tear/puncture it somehow, which will defeat any waterproof...even the mythical GoreTex. Talk to people in the industry that sell this stuff (including reps of companies that use GoreTex)...they will tell you how much of a great job of marketing Gore has done to spin info and dupe the common consumer into thinking that GoreTex is the only thing that can keep you dry. It's a great product, don't get me wrong. But it's not the best/end all, be all, heck, it's 40-50 year old tech. There's a reason GoreTex containing apparel costs so much...and it's not related to the tech put into it...it's the stupidly high licensing and other fees that have to be paid to Gore use it. When other companies can put that money into actual membrane and waterproofing tech advancements.

> >

> > Again, GoreTex is great at keeping you dry, not ever going to argue that point. I myself own plenty. But spending similar money on non-GoreTex products from reputable companies shouldn't scare anyone in the slightest...no one is going to spend GoreTex money 2 or 3 times because something fails. That's just not going to happen short of a manufacturing flaw that shows up well within the warranty period.

>

> Ok, so simple question(s) then....

> Footjoy basically states they have a 2 year warranty. If they have improved their product, they still only have a 2 year warranty.

> Tell me the best waterproof warranty of any golf rain gear you have purchased in that 10grand retail you have spent.

> And, what was the best rain gear in terms of keeping you dry that you bought.

> I am talking brands now...not what it is made of.

>

 

Well...I guess I can try to answer those questions, even though I don't necessarily shop for rain gear solely by "brand", as I do look at the waterproofing tech that it uses just as much as brand, if not more so.

 

As far as "longest warranty" on golf specific rain gear, for whatever that's worth...I don't look for rain gear based off of warranty either, as all warranties can have loopholes that let them off the hook...prime example again is Gore's own "guarantee", would be I guess ProQuip's lifetime guarantee on the PX5/PX6 stuff, and Zero Restriction's lifetime on the GoreTex stuff (if they still do that, I'm not sure if they do...they are a company that is moving away from Gore more and more, as now their top of the line/most expensive jacket and pants are not GoreTex). If you move outside of golf specific rain gear, where there's honestly a lot wider variety of choices, styles, and tech, I'd say it would be Arc'Teryx and Patagonia. I've never heard or experienced anything but amazing service from those companies. Again, I couldn't care less about the warranty length when buying rain gear, as I've already done the homework on the type of waterproofing and materials it uses, and if the company is known to have great customer service in general.

 

When it comes to best at keeping me dry, honestly, as I stated before, there are MANY brands and materials that have never let me down.

 

Brands: Kjus, Kuhl, Arc'Teryx, North Face, FootJoy (membrane using garments), Zero Restriction, Columbia OutDry, all GoreTex using brands (Galvin Green, Zero Restriction, Adidas, Under Armour, etc), PING, I could list more.

 

Materials: eVent, NeoShell, Toray fabrics (Derzimax...used in Kjus' higher end lines), Pertex Shield variants, Columbia Omni-Dry, again, there are more, and many manufacturers use some of the above named techs without licensing, meaning it will not have these names on the garment.

 

In the past 10-12 years, I've only had two garments fail me and let water through the actual garment...an Under Armour 2-layer "proprietary" waterproofing tech that had no specified warranty period, yet they replaced it for me no questions asked 2-3 years into ownership, and the Kjus Dexter when using it in more rain than it was designed to handle apparently. This one was honestly kind of hard not to expect, as there is no fabric currently on the market that thin and lightweight that can withstand a lot of rain. And despite the internet old wives tales, and something that may come as a shock to some members on here, I've NEVER had a FootJoy truly waterproof garment fail. I'm talking membrane-containing jacket/pants. Nor have any of my customers, and I've sold 75 or so jackets over the past several years that they have been all membrane-based.

 

 

[chris975d]

> @RickKimbrell said:

> > @chris975d said:

> > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > > @chris975d said:

> > > > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > > > I guess what it comes down to for me is pretty simple.....

> > > > > Is the rain gear you are buying "waterproof for LIFE" or simply for a few years? What does the guarantee say? If not for life, I am not buying it.

> > > > > I bought a Macgregor GoreTex rain suit back in 1989 (could have been 90). I don't wear it to play golf anymore but I keep it in my truck in case I get caught out in the rain. Wore it 3 times this year and it kept me dry every time. Pretty good for around 20 year old stuff.

> > > > > I bought a really nice looking Dryjoy rain jacket in the early 2000s. It was waterproof for maybe close to 2 years and then I got soaked in a golf tournament in a pouring rain. Ordered some new Zero Restriction stuff that night and been dry on the golf course ever since.

> > > >

> > > > Remember that GoreTex actually isn't "guaranteed/waterproof for life" in the way that most people interpret that marketing phrase. It's the "useful life of the product", which has no set time, can be 2 years or 10, and is all dependant on how much you use it. It's not the life of the buyer, as many people incorrectly assume...granted, the marketing catch phrase is worded the way it is because they know this is how people will interpret it. There is a period that can pass where GoreTex does not warranty it. You can find this out in testimonials on outdoor gear sites, and even in my own conversations with manufacturers reps of GoreTex containing apparel. It's a marketing catch phrase, nothing more. I've posted more in depth on this and even posted links in some of the rain gear threads here (maybe even in this thread). Gore alone gets to determine the warranty length as they get to say what the "useful life of the product" is, and whether you have worn it out or not. When they make that determination, there is no warranty. Again, you can find cases where they have denied warranty coverage. Now, a manufacturer can offer their own warranty above and beyond the Gore industries warranty, but not many actually do anymore.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Even so, it **** sure stays waterproof longer than anything else I have ever tried. So, why spend money on something 2 or 3 times when you can buy the best I have ever found and stick with it?

> >

> > I know people have their own personal anecdotes about raingear, but I've been selling it and using it in ways that golfers never would come close to, and honestly....anything with an equivalent rating to that of GoreTex (20K and up) just doesn't fail on the waterproofing side. Making something waterproof isn't rocket science anymore. I mean, even with GoreTex, you're talking about taking a teflon sheet and heat/mechanical bonding it to a thin fabric (this would be the exterior)...it's basically plastic-lined apparel. That's not hard to do. What's harder is to make something that's waterproof with a significant amount of stretch, and that can breathe. Those are where Gore have been passed by in many instances. I've owned and tried every major brand out there, GoreTex or not, and as long as it's bought from a reputable company, NONE of it has ever failed in terms of waterproofing. I've bought almost $10,000 (retail) in raingear in the past few years just buying, testing, etc...I like apparel. And been doing that for many years, so I can pretty safely say I've tried almost everything out there. I can unequivocally say that if you buy something from a stand up company with a 20K rating or more, you're not getting wet. I know of no company with 20K/25K/30K ratings where you'd have to buy "2 or 3 times"....that's just not going to happen. Now, back in the day when garments didn't specify rating, or tell you the type of tech used for water resistance...aka, membrane, DWR only, etc.. (this is where many of the FootJoy old wives tales come from..."waterproofs" that didn't use membranes), you might get something that wouldn't last in terms of keeping you dry. But today, you can even safely buy FootJoy without fear of the waterproof membrane failing..unless of course you tear/puncture it somehow, which will defeat any waterproof...even the mythical GoreTex. Talk to people in the industry that sell this stuff (including reps of companies that use GoreTex)...they will tell you how much of a great job of marketing Gore has done to spin info and dupe the common consumer into thinking that GoreTex is the only thing that can keep you dry. It's a great product, don't get me wrong. But it's not the best/end all, be all, heck, it's 40-50 year old tech. There's a reason GoreTex containing apparel costs so much...and it's not related to the tech put into it...it's the stupidly high licensing and other fees that have to be paid to Gore use it. When other companies can put that money into actual membrane and waterproofing tech advancements.

> >

> > Again, GoreTex is great at keeping you dry, not ever going to argue that point. I myself own plenty. But spending similar money on non-GoreTex products from reputable companies shouldn't scare anyone in the slightest...no one is going to spend GoreTex money 2 or 3 times because something fails. That's just not going to happen short of a manufacturing flaw that shows up well within the warranty period.

>

> Ok, so simple question(s) then....

> Footjoy basically states they have a 2 year warranty. If they have improved their product, they still only have a 2 year warranty.

> Tell me the best waterproof warranty of any golf rain gear you have purchased in that 10grand retail you have spent.

> And, what was the best rain gear in terms of keeping you dry that you bought.

> I am talking brands now...not what it is made of.

>

 

I will say that one thing that sucks about golf specific apparel is that we don't get nearly the choice of styling or even materials (waterproof specific) that the rest of the outdoor sporting world get. Most of those membranes/waterproof tech I mentioned above aren't in golf specific garments, and the few that are aren't frequent in number. That's one reason I don't limit myself to just "golf" manufacturers when shopping for rain gear. But, until we as customers start asking for it, it's like one employee for an apparel company told me (and that company does use GoreTex), ...golfers aren't that educated in this and don't know there are better products out there. They just buy based off of name recognition mostly. Gore has done an excellent marketing job and we pay a lot to Gore to piggy back off of the recognition they've made for that material. Golfers don't need highly breathable waterproof garments like rock climbers or other high activity sports, they are just walking, and the majority actually ride. And GoreTex is safe (Gore controls all aspects of it) and well-known. Not hard to sell.

And heck, we (golfers) don't even get all the GoreTex products....there's Pro, Paclite Plus, ShakeDry, Active...Galvin Green is starting to do more with some of those, but most of them have been around for years...and all we have gotten during that time is basic GoreTex, and PacLite for probably 99% of all Gore based golf garments....the two oldest tech products they make.

 

Also, just another interesting piece of info I've gathered from this being my hobby (also part of my job in golf) and talking to apparel companies and reps....the vast majority of golfers that buy rain gear never use it. Another reason we don't see much innovation or alternative materials (other than 50 year old GoreTex) brought over to our sport. Rock climbers, runners, fishermen, etc are actively using their gear in the elements, and if it doesn't perform, they vocalize that and help their garment makers bring about change. But, work in daily fee golf as I do, and ask the people that buy rain gear when the last time they used it, or if they even have...I'd say an easy 8 out of 10 that have it will give a reply such as "no way! I'm not playing in the rain". As I stare at them with a blank face, wondering why on Earth they had me order them a several hundred dollar rain suit that's done nothing but sit in their golf bag or trunk. But that response aligns with what the manufacturers are telling me, so...