Club Champion question

[BY#99]

So I found a fitter in my area to do a driver testing. I am passing on CC because this fitting is outdoors. A friend of mine did this and his new driver build was $575. They took the $150 fitting cost off the price of the driver ($750). It just got me thinking that this is better. I cannot see why I would pay over a grand for a club and not see the flight outside. I realize you can bring it back at CC and adjust or do something different but that to me seems like wasted time. Not sure, FOR ME, that I see a $400 value in going elsewhere.

 

Sorry typo cost was $725 minus the fitting.

[phatchrisrules]

So I found a fitter in my area to do a driver testing. I am passing on CC because this fitting is outdoors. A friend of mine did this and his new driver build was $575. They took the $150 fitting cost off the price of the driver ($750). It just got me thinking that this is better. I cannot see why I would pay over a grand for a club and not see the flight outside. I realize you can bring it back at CC and adjust or do something different but that to me seems like wasted time. Not sure, FOR ME, that I see a $400 value in going elsewhere.

 

Sorry typo cost was $725 minus the fitting.

 

I think most here would agree with you. There seems to be a large consensus that hitting outdoors is better due to "seeing the ball flight". I don't know if one is necessarily better than the other. I just don't see this mis-reading of cameras and such; I'd trust a computer to do complex calculations better than I'd trust my eyes to do that. I've had many shots I thought I creamed only for them to fall short or off line. Looking at the divot or face strike shows middle, yet the result is suboptimal. A monitor can tell you why. Indoor fitting has a place to limit the variables (no wind, comfortable temps, usually nobody bellowing in your backswing or shanking/pull-topping a ball right through your eye line), but I do see the other side of the coin.

[BY#99]

Maybe I misspoke but the outdoor fitting is providing a monitor as well. So it is not just going outside to see the flight I will be getting all the swing numbers as well as being able to see the flight. To me it is the. Eat if both worlds. I am not dissing indoor fittings as I am just saying for me this is what I prefer. I know many people who have had success indoors.

 

To me best of both worlds.

[gmoney]

For anyone who wanted to get an idea. I did not buy that driver and decided to wait.

 

 

There are a bunch of ways to save money. Cool Clubs, Club Champion, etc. ... it's all the same for the most part. Yes, I can feel a difference of PUREing a shaft. Yes, I would pay $$$ to get the specs spot on. Yes, it is a lot of money. Lessons > clubs if you suck.

 

$1.2K driver??!! wow. This even dwarfs PXG price. Golf is becoming a very expensive sport for those who want the best clubs. Not so good for the sports I am afraid.

 

Actually it would be about $1700 for the PXG same set up..

 

Just sayin’....

[Midway Nole]

I have a problem with both charging MSRP and parting out the club. Titleist doesn't sell club heads, so you know they're coming with shafts and grips. Some clubs ship with shafts that cost hundreds of dollars. Couple this with the fact that they are charging you more than you would pay retail most places for the parts for your build, and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

 

CC is great for the Trackman time. The guys I've dealt with know what they're doing. They do a good fitting. Unless they're providing some discount, I wouldn't have them build my clubs.

[trumb1mj1]

I have a problem with both charging MSRP and parting out the club. Titleist doesn't sell club heads, so you know they're coming with shafts and grips. Some clubs ship with shafts that cost hundreds of dollars. Couple this with the fact that they are charging you more than you would pay retail most places for the parts for your build, and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

 

CC is great for the Trackman time. The guys I've dealt with know what they're doing. They do a good fitting. Unless they're providing some discount, I wouldn't have them build my clubs.

 

This. Nowadays you can upgrade your club through a manufacturer like Titleist. No need to order a club with the wrong shaft plus an upgrade shaft from elsewhere. There’s no secret build method CC has that titleist doesn’t!

[CMCSGolf]

When I had my iron fitting at CC I asked them about their build process. One thing they told me is that they order several of each head and then weigh each of them so that I get all clubs with the same swing weight. They claimed that the heads from manufacturers can vary in weight substantially and that each club from a set could have very different swing weights. I am skeptical of this as I assume Titleist and Taylormade have a very small tolerance on weight. I also doubt I could feel a half point of difference in swing weight.

 

Club Champion offers a really good fitting, this is just an example of something that they charge you for that probably doesn't have much (if any) benefit. Very similar to their emphasis on puring, in my opinion.

[Swisstrader98]

I’ve done quite a few fittings in my time and the deal used to be that they deduct the price of the fitting from the cost of the clubs. Is that no longer the case?

 

On my end, I will always stick with purchasing from a professional fitter. I get a great education about clubs and sometimes a quick lesson as well. Then when something screws up which inevitably happens, I can always go back to my fitter for a quick tweak.

[Sean2]

For anyone who wanted to get an idea. I did not buy that driver and decided to wait.

 

 

There are a bunch of ways to save money. Cool Clubs, Club Champion, etc. ... it's all the same for the most part. Yes, I can feel a difference of PUREing a shaft. Yes, I would pay $$$ to get the specs spot on. Yes, it is a lot of money. Lessons > clubs if you suck.

 

You would think they would subtract the price of the shaft that the Epic comes with. It lists the Epic's price as $499. Last I checked that does include a shaft. :-)

[trumb1mj1]

Why doesn’t CC make an arrangement with the manufacturers to ship the head and shaft without building? You can buy these shafts from the manufacturer as an upgrade! So frustrating.

[howellhandmade]

When I had my iron fitting at CC I asked them about their build process. One thing they told me is that they order several of each head and then weigh each of them so that I get all clubs with the same swing weight. They claimed that the heads from manufacturers can vary in weight substantially and that each club from a set could have very different swing weights. I am skeptical of this as I assume Titleist and Taylormade have a very small tolerance on weight. I also doubt I could feel a half point of difference in swing weight.

 

Club Champion offers a really good fitting, this is just an example of something that they charge you for that probably doesn't have much (if any) benefit. Very similar to their emphasis on puring, in my opinion.

 

That sounds improbable, and the more I consider it the more questions I have, which I think is the mark of an iffy deal. I went for a fitting at a posh place (not Club Champion), and was fit for Mizunos with Project X lz graphite. After I got the clubs, I was looking at the Mizuno website and noticed that, according to the prices on my invoice, in addition to the $150 fitting fee I had paid $150 more than retail (an extra club's worth) for the irons and had paid $200 for the shafts, which according to the Mizuno website, were offered at no upcharge. When I emailed to inquire, the fitter replied that he ordered the irons long, then disassembled, measured in his "machine" and trimmed them to flex and reassembled, so the extra cost was labor.

 

I said that was interesting, could I please have a copy of the build sheet so that I could see the frequency numbers? He never replied, and moved to another job. I suppose it's possible he pulled the heads, removed the grips, cleaned off the tape, trimmed the (taper tip) shafts to flex so that the graphics still lined up perfectly, and reassembled. And perhaps it's standard accounting not to invoice labor as labor, but to split it up into two product overcharges. But the law of parsimony would suggest that he just gave me the clubs that Mizuno built.

 

It was educational. I realize that my experience was not with CC, but the claim of buying several sets of clubs in order to get a perfectly weighted set struck me as similar. What happens to the other sets? Where is all this inventory? How many sets does it take to get one good one? The cost would seem far greater even than CC's pricing, where is the charge for "weight sorting?" Does this really give a better enough result than tip weighting to justify the exercise? The law of parsimony suggests that it doesn't happen.

[e-man]

I don't understand why CC doesn't give you back the stock shafts that come with the clubs. After all, you're paying for them. You should receive them, and you shouldn't have to specifically ask for them.

[CMCSGolf]

Howell, they told me they typically buy 4-5 of each iron head and that is enough to get the right swing weight. He also said they send the extras back, so there is not cost. Since they assemble all clubs in Chicago, I think they probably have enough clubs on property to get the right numbers.

 

My real question is how often this is necessary? I can't imagine a very high percentage of Titleist or Mizuno clubs have a weight difference that would effect seeing weight more than a point, but I guess I could be wrong.

[Midway Nole]

Howell, they told me they typically buy 4-5 of each iron head and that is enough to get the right swing weight. He also said they send the extras back, so there is not cost. Since they assemble all clubs in Chicago, I think they probably have enough clubs on property to get the right numbers.

 

My real question is how often this is necessary? I can't imagine a very high percentage of Titleist or Mizuno clubs have a weight difference that would effect seeing weight more than a point, but I guess I could be wrong.

 

I can see ordering multiple drivers to make sure the loft is correct, but the swing weight thing is so easily corrected. And I can't imagine Titleist or Mizuno are cool with them sending back mismatching sets.

[trumb1mj1]

They are full of it. You can build a set of irons with matching sw pretty easily.

 

Also, to above poster. You should always check to see if you can get the fitted shaft at no up charge from the manufacturer.

 

I notice the club champion guy has stopped posting on this thread...

[howellhandmade]

Howell, they told me they typically buy 4-5 of each iron head and that is enough to get the right swing weight. He also said they send the extras back, so there is not cost. Since they assemble all clubs in Chicago, I think they probably have enough clubs on property to get the right numbers.

 

My real question is how often this is necessary? I can't imagine a very high percentage of Titleist or Mizuno clubs have a weight difference that would effect seeing weight more than a point, but I guess I could be wrong.

 

Will companies really do this? I've heard lots about pulling stock shafts from sets to install premium shafts, but this is the first about major companies (say, Titleist or Ping) supplying a builder with components. That mechanism would make more sense, but the rub for many of us is the cost vs. benefit. Labor costs money, skilled labor even more so. Googling around, it's a little tough to pinpoint how much more it costs to get a given set of clubs from CC vs. the same set (same shaft, same specs) from a manufacturer. It's senseless to ask if it's worth it, whatever the number, that's relative to the customer. However, it all seems a little murky.

 

[Sean2]

They are full of it. You can build a set of irons with matching sw pretty easily.

 

Also, to above poster. You should always check to see if you can get the fitted shaft at no up charge from the manufacturer.

 

I notice the club champion guy has stopped posting on this thread...

 

I never questioned their ability to fit people properly, but I have always been dubious as to their pricing.

[rxk9fan]

I would love to see an independent, expert comparison between a set of irons built by CC and a set built by, say, Mizuno. Both sets with shafts that can be gotten as a stock upgrade, both to the same specs. The sets would be purchased anonymously, neither CC nor Mizuno would know that they're building for a test. Actually, it would be a good test of the manufacturers' build shops to include several brands. As a Sirius listener, I've been bombarded with CC advertising and infomercials posing as talk shows. It's getting to the point where I think, wait a minute, if I go to CC I'm paying for this. I think there is real benefit to be derived from fitting to basic geometry and head/shaft compatibility. How much difference is there between going to a good fitter and ordering the resulting clubs from a manufacturer vs. spending an extra $XXX for a CC build?

 

Everyone can have an opinion but let me share some fact from my half price CC iron fitting a few months ago:

1. The session was one of the most enjoyable golf mornings I have experienced.

2. The data and reports that came from the session were SO much fun to study for hours.

3. With out doubt a SW of D5 benefited my striking of the ball.

4. My Ping s55's custom ordered with SteelFiber shafts at D5 were less than D2 on the scales.

5. My Callaway X Forged with stock shafts were less than D2 on the scales

6. The best fit for me was identified as the X Forged heads I already owned bent 2 degrees strong and the Steelfiber shafts in the Pings I already owned. I was charged 25 dollars per finished club. So for the 9 iron for example, I was charged a total of $25 to pull each 9 iron shaft, re-shaft the X Forged built to a true D5 SW with the shafts out of my Pings and bent 2 degrees strong. Then the heads and shaft not used were returned to me.

 

So, while 4 months ago I would have agreed with you that who better to build a club than the OEM? I found out PING was not within 3 SW of their build sheet and Callaway missed their mark too. At least with the CC build I got the product I paid for. I am a little frustrated with the OEM's in that though you specify specs, you can't expect them to always deliver.

[Hehateme]

The speeder shafts are offered as a custom direct from Callaway. You order the club and they ship it with the shaft installed.

[trhode]

Howell, they told me they typically buy 4-5 of each iron head and that is enough to get the right swing weight. He also said they send the extras back, so there is not cost. Since they assemble all clubs in Chicago, I think they probably have enough clubs on property to get the right numbers.

 

My real question is how often this is necessary? I can't imagine a very high percentage of Titleist or Mizuno clubs have a weight difference that would effect seeing weight more than a point, but I guess I could be wrong.

 

Will companies really do this? I've heard lots about pulling stock shafts from sets to install premium shafts, but this is the first about major companies (say, Titleist or Ping) supplying a builder with components. That mechanism would make more sense, but the rub for many of us is the cost vs. benefit. Labor costs money, skilled labor even more so. Googling around, it's a little tough to pinpoint how much more it costs to get a given set of clubs from CC vs. the same set (same shaft, same specs) from a manufacturer. It's senseless to ask if it's worth it, whatever the number, that's relative to the customer. However, it all seems a little murky.

 

CC gets the heads only direct from the manufacturer. Every OEM has a component account program.

[Terry Gold]

Doesn't CC only carry/offer the very latest release models?

E.G. If I wanted to compare the M2 3 wood to the M4, would I even have the option to do so?

[fawley]

I don't understand why CC doesn't give you back the stock shafts that come with the clubs. After all, you're paying for them. You should receive them, and you shouldn't have to specifically ask for them.

 

They do give them back. Or at least, they shipped mine to me with my clubs without me asking them to. I didn’t really care whether they did or didn’t because they’re basically useless to me.

[e-man]

I don't understand why CC doesn't give you back the stock shafts that come with the clubs. After all, you're paying for them. You should receive them, and you shouldn't have to specifically ask for them.

 

They do give them back. Or at least, they shipped mine to me with my clubs without me asking them to. I didn’t really care whether they did or didn’t because they’re basically useless to me.

 

Thanks. A buddy of mine forgot to ask and they were not given back to him. I don't think he called back after the fact so I don't know if they still had them or not.

[trumb1mj1]

I would love to see an independent, expert comparison between a set of irons built by CC and a set built by, say, Mizuno. Both sets with shafts that can be gotten as a stock upgrade, both to the same specs. The sets would be purchased anonymously, neither CC nor Mizuno would know that they're building for a test. Actually, it would be a good test of the manufacturers' build shops to include several brands. As a Sirius listener, I've been bombarded with CC advertising and infomercials posing as talk shows. It's getting to the point where I think, wait a minute, if I go to CC I'm paying for this. I think there is real benefit to be derived from fitting to basic geometry and head/shaft compatibility. How much difference is there between going to a good fitter and ordering the resulting clubs from a manufacturer vs. spending an extra $XXX for a CC build?

 

Everyone can have an opinion but let me share some fact from my half price CC iron fitting a few months ago:

1. The session was one of the most enjoyable golf mornings I have experienced.

2. The data and reports that came from the session were SO much fun to study for hours.

3. With out doubt a SW of D5 benefited my striking of the ball.

4. My Ping s55's custom ordered with SteelFiber shafts at D5 were less than D2 on the scales.

5. My Callaway X Forged with stock shafts were less than D2 on the scales

6. The best fit for me was identified as the X Forged heads I already owned bent 2 degrees strong and the Steelfiber shafts in the Pings I already owned. I was charged 25 dollars per finished club. So for the 9 iron for example, I was charged a total of $25 to pull each 9 iron shaft, re-shaft the X Forged built to a true D5 SW with the shafts out of my Pings and bent 2 degrees strong. Then the heads and shaft not used were returned to me.

 

So, while 4 months ago I would have agreed with you that who better to build a club than the OEM? I found out PING was not within 3 SW of their build sheet and Callaway missed their mark too. At least with the CC build I got the product I paid for. I am a little frustrated with the OEM's in that though you specify specs, you can't expect them to always deliver.

 

What other swing weights were tested? D5 might work great for you but CC has high swing weights due to their use of the conex adapter.

[Hugh123]

I recently was fitted at club champion. I thought the fitting was good, however I was unable to try out different shaft lengths.

 

I had an entire bag fitting over 2 separate sessions as irons took 2 hours and then putter. Came back for driver, Woods, hybrid. Really great info. The problem? PRICE.

 

New Driver with custom shaft : $850.00

New irons : 5-PW with custom shafts: $1600.00

New wedges with custom shafts: (3) $610.00

New putter: $400.00

New hybrid: $450.00

 

This does not include sales tax, puring.

[seslwr1]

It’s obvious that Club Champion doesn’t want to be in the equipment business. They’re well aware of what the rest of the world is selling drivers, irons, etc. for. Their business model is to make money on fittings. The fact that they offer equipment quotes well above everyone else is their way of politely saying that they don’t want to sell you golf clubs. So, go get fitted at CC and buy somewhere else.

[HISPL]

Howell, they told me they typically buy 4-5 of each iron head and that is enough to get the right swing weight. He also said they send the extras back, so there is not cost. Since they assemble all clubs in Chicago, I think they probably have enough clubs on property to get the right numbers.

 

My real question is how often this is necessary? I can't imagine a very high percentage of Titleist or Mizuno clubs have a weight difference that would effect seeing weight more than a point, but I guess I could be wrong.

 

Having worked with a number of OEM brands rebuilding them I can quite confidently tell you that some brands are definitely better than others.

 

Now, you might think that some brands based on their reputation and marketing would have tight specs on head weights... but it couldn’t be further from the truth!

 

The best OEM brands I find when I tear down and rebuild are Mizuno, Callaway and Bridgestone in no real order. Having said that I haven’t had to rebuild a set of Bridgestone irons in some time now as I don’t see a lot of them come through.

 

Some other brands have great reputations but in reality not really good execution of QC processes!

 

One in particular has sent sets out for a brand ambassador that have been fitted with shafts only inserted into the heads by 1/2 an inch on two seperate occasions (for the same guy!) and I have seen it on multiple other clubs too.

 

Another brand sent a set of clubs to an ambassador and he asked for D5 swing weights... one club out of the set was within a 1/2 a swingweight point of that and the rest were 2-3 points off!

 

I don’t like to point fingers for poor workmanship, but will give credit to Mizuno and Callaway who do some good work for Australian custom builds through their internal teams.