Shaft lean during practice swing but Casting during real swing !!

[golfie1]

OK, I will reengage.

 

OP wants shaft lean. Wonders why he doesn't have it. Even his thread title includes the words "SHAFT LEAN".

 

Videos show him flipping/casting to get the face (hopefully) square at impact with no shaft lean at impact. Face appears open at all points of the downswing to anyone looking at pictures on iPhone 3 and above.

 

So - please tell me how the OP can get SHAFT LEAN at impact, given that there are 0.000005 milliseconds between P6.5 and impact, and his face is open at that point.

 

Because his clubface isn't open.

 

This thread has some of the worst advice I've ever seen. You got two people who are seeing phantom open clubfaces, another one who thinks keeping your head back is a good idea, and someone else who thinks the arms are passive in the downswing. Are any of you actually any good?

 

Totally agree.

 

Look at the OP's and Tiger's left shoulders at P6 and notice how much higher the OP's is vs. Tiger's. The OP is forced to lose the extension in his right wrist to get the clubhead down to the ball, otherwise he goes right over it. There is not enough DOWN to his handpath due to how he manages his right shoulder and arm.

 

Forearm rotation is what will square the face.

 

MH,

 

Would you not say that the way OP manages (or rather not) his right arm uses up some of his forearm rolling squaring prematurely? Therefore his clubface is wide open as there is not much squaring left.

 

I think getting the OP's clubface to be far less open is an essential component to improving his arm positioning. Very doubtful that he can correct his faults without this. His move looks athletic enough that his arms and body may react well to changes in clubface orientation.

[Lefthook]

Because his clubface isn't open.

 

This thread has some of the worst advice I've ever seen. You got two people who are seeing phantom open clubfaces, another one who thinks keeping your head back is a good idea, and someone else who thinks the arms are passive in the downswing. Are any of you actually any good?

 

OP asked why he was unable to hit the ball with his trial swing that has forward shaft lean. The simple answer is that the club face is wide open at impact with his trial swing. You can obfuscate that all you want, but that's the simple fact.

 

You put him side by side with Tiger, as if the two are in a similar position at P6,. They couldn't be more different.

 

OP has done a lot of compensation already at P6, and the club face appears to be in far better shape than it would be if he didn't. If you put OP in the same position as Tiger, with hands more out and a right pitch elbow - and with similar wrist flexion/extension in both hands - everybody would see that OP's clubface was in deep trouble.

 

The difference between the two is far from subtle. TIger will square the face automatically as part of his release. Right arm will externally rotate when he straightens the elbow, both hands will start moving back in before impact and since he do not have to wait for the flip, he can also do some closing by simply keep turning his shoulders. OP doesn't have any tools left to square the club face to path. His right shoulder is already externally rotated,his right elbow is already out and he has already brought his hands inwards. The only way he can square the face is to flip the club past the hands.

 

If you study OP's hands in the impact position in the trial swing when he doesn't compensate, you will see that his hands are in a reasonably good position. His right hand is in a normal strong position with the V between thumb and index finger pointing somewhat towards his right shoulder. There are great golfers who display a weaker grip at impact, but also those who are stronger. His is pretty middle range here. But since his clubface is very open he is not able to hit the ball with that swing.

 

The only smart thing to do here for OP is to fix the grip first. Then he can see which other issues he needs to address.

 

Tis thread is a mixed bag, as usual. People tend to project their own issues and fixes into these advise threads. Only a few have diagnostic skills, and the grip is overlooked by many. What makes this thread worse is that you argue against fixing a root cause to OP's issues.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. They are in a different position because OP has casted but they are both have a neutral club face position because it is in line with left arm.

 

 

You have been giving some of the worst advice in this thread that I’ve ever seen on gwx.

 

The ad hominem speaks volumes of you.

 

 

 

[TTGolf77]

Because his clubface isn't open.

 

This thread has some of the worst advice I've ever seen. You got two people who are seeing phantom open clubfaces, another one who thinks keeping your head back is a good idea, and someone else who thinks the arms are passive in the downswing. Are any of you actually any good?

 

OP asked why he was unable to hit the ball with his trial swing that has forward shaft lean. The simple answer is that the club face is wide open at impact with his trial swing. You can obfuscate that all you want, but that's the simple fact.

 

You put him side by side with Tiger, as if the two are in a similar position at P6,. They couldn't be more different.

 

OP has done a lot of compensation already at P6, and the club face appears to be in far better shape than it would be if he didn't. If you put OP in the same position as Tiger, with hands more out and a right pitch elbow - and with similar wrist flexion/extension in both hands - everybody would see that OP's clubface was in deep trouble.

 

The difference between the two is far from subtle. TIger will square the face automatically as part of his release. Right arm will externally rotate when he straightens the elbow, both hands will start moving back in before impact and since he do not have to wait for the flip, he can also do some closing by simply keep turning his shoulders. OP doesn't have any tools left to square the club face to path. His right shoulder is already externally rotated,his right elbow is already out and he has already brought his hands inwards. The only way he can square the face is to flip the club past the hands.

 

If you study OP's hands in the impact position in the trial swing when he doesn't compensate, you will see that his hands are in a reasonably good position. His right hand is in a normal strong position with the V between thumb and index finger pointing somewhat towards his right shoulder. There are great golfers who display a weaker grip at impact, but also those who are stronger. His is pretty middle range here. But since his clubface is very open he is not able to hit the ball with that swing.

 

The only smart thing to do here for OP is to fix the grip first. Then he can see which other issues he needs to address.

 

Tis thread is a mixed bag, as usual. People tend to project their own issues and fixes into these advise threads. Only a few have diagnostic skills, and the grip is overlooked by many. What makes this thread worse is that you argue against fixing a root cause to OP's issues.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. They are in a different position because OP has casted but they are both have a neutral club face position because it is in line with left arm.

 

 

You have been giving some of the worst advice in this thread that I’ve ever seen on gwx.

 

The ad hominem speaks volumes of you.

 

Lol ad hominem? When someone thinks straightening the right arm externally rotates it and a clubface that’s in line with the left arm is wide open it’s pretty safe to say they have no idea what they are talking about.

[golfie1]

Because his clubface isn't open.

 

This thread has some of the worst advice I've ever seen. You got two people who are seeing phantom open clubfaces, another one who thinks keeping your head back is a good idea, and someone else who thinks the arms are passive in the downswing. Are any of you actually any good?

 

OP asked why he was unable to hit the ball with his trial swing that has forward shaft lean. The simple answer is that the club face is wide open at impact with his trial swing. You can obfuscate that all you want, but that's the simple fact.

 

You put him side by side with Tiger, as if the two are in a similar position at P6,. They couldn't be more different.

 

OP has done a lot of compensation already at P6, and the club face appears to be in far better shape than it would be if he didn't. If you put OP in the same position as Tiger, with hands more out and a right pitch elbow - and with similar wrist flexion/extension in both hands - everybody would see that OP's clubface was in deep trouble.

 

The difference between the two is far from subtle. TIger will square the face automatically as part of his release. Right arm will externally rotate when he straightens the elbow, both hands will start moving back in before impact and since he do not have to wait for the flip, he can also do some closing by simply keep turning his shoulders. OP doesn't have any tools left to square the club face to path. His right shoulder is already externally rotated,his right elbow is already out and he has already brought his hands inwards. The only way he can square the face is to flip the club past the hands.

 

If you study OP's hands in the impact position in the trial swing when he doesn't compensate, you will see that his hands are in a reasonably good position. His right hand is in a normal strong position with the V between thumb and index finger pointing somewhat towards his right shoulder. There are great golfers who display a weaker grip at impact, but also those who are stronger. His is pretty middle range here. But since his clubface is very open he is not able to hit the ball with that swing.

 

The only smart thing to do here for OP is to fix the grip first. Then he can see which other issues he needs to address.

 

Tis thread is a mixed bag, as usual. People tend to project their own issues and fixes into these advise threads. Only a few have diagnostic skills, and the grip is overlooked by many. What makes this thread worse is that you argue against fixing a root cause to OP's issues.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. They are in a different position because OP has casted but they are both have a neutral club face position because it is in line with left arm.

 

 

You have been giving some of the worst advice in this thread that I've ever seen on gwx.

 

The ad hominem speaks volumes of you.

 

Lol ad hominem? When someone thinks straightening the right arm externally rotates it and a clubface that's in line with the left arm is wide open it's pretty safe to say they have no idea what they are talking about.

 

Sorry TT but the OPs arms are too far out of position for your benchmark to apply.

[moehogan]

OK, I will reengage.

 

OP wants shaft lean. Wonders why he doesn't have it. Even his thread title includes the words "SHAFT LEAN".

 

Videos show him flipping/casting to get the face (hopefully) square at impact with no shaft lean at impact. Face appears open at all points of the downswing to anyone looking at pictures on iPhone 3 and above.

 

So - please tell me how the OP can get SHAFT LEAN at impact, given that there are 0.000005 milliseconds between P6.5 and impact, and his face is open at that point.

 

Because his clubface isn't open.

 

This thread has some of the worst advice I've ever seen. You got two people who are seeing phantom open clubfaces, another one who thinks keeping your head back is a good idea, and someone else who thinks the arms are passive in the downswing. Are any of you actually any good?

 

Totally agree.

 

Look at the OP's and Tiger's left shoulders at P6 and notice how much higher the OP's is vs. Tiger's. The OP is forced to lose the extension in his right wrist to get the clubhead down to the ball, otherwise he goes right over it. There is not enough DOWN to his handpath due to how he manages his right shoulder and arm.

 

Forearm rotation is what will square the face.

 

MH,

 

Would you not say that the way OP manages (or rather not) his right arm uses up some of his forearm rolling squaring prematurely? Therefore his clubface is wide open as there is not much squaring left.

 

I think getting the OP's clubface to be far less open is an essential component to improving his arm positioning. Very doubtful that he can correct his faults without this. His move looks athletic enough that his arms and body may react well to changes in clubface orientation.

 

The OP's right forearm has plenty of face closing (CCW) ROM remaining at P6 ... forearm can pronate 180* from neutral. Problem remains that he doesn't have enough DOWN and uses right wrist flexion to get it. If his hands were lower at P6 he could keep the right wrist bent (extended) and possibly be able to hit UP from P6 to P7. Lower hand path has much to do with right shoulder/arm movement and nothing to do with club face orientation.

[TTGolf77]

Sorry TT but the OPs arms are too far out of position for your benchmark to apply.

 

You are wrong. OP is neutral at the top, neutral at P6. Casting has no effect on the relationship between the left arm and the clubface.

[dap]

We need the Golf God to chime in and set things straight.

[golfie1]

What say you, dap? Wide open or not?

[dap]

What say you, dap? Wide open or not?

Not wide open in my opinion. Most of the top players have the clubface perpendicular to the ground at P6 or just before P6. The one exception is Dustin Johnson who's clubface is at the same angle as his spine so I suppose he would be considered a little closed or maybe everyone else is open.

[jut111]

Are we talking open to Target or path?

[CoiledUP]

As the title states, I've been working on not casting and now I am able to do it in my practice swings but as soon as I put a ball down to try and hit my swing completely changes and I cast and have to stand up through the shot, it's really frustrating!

 

You have a hodgepodge sequence with no real matched coordination connecting body and club for maximum power. Your hands are leaving your power source behind, the body's pivot support and rotation. You don't have to "try and hit" the ball, that part even the most uncoordinated can usually accomplish thanks to neural wiring, so don't do anything but hold onto the club from the top while transitioning, then turn hard. When you think you've turned hard, turn harder because you probably didn't turn hard enough and, if you do, the club will come out from behind your hands at the right moment. If you turn correctly you will begin to sense the sequence and how little you actually have to do compared to what you may believe is required. Hit the ball with rotation, not with the club.

[TTGolf77]

OK, I will reengage.

 

OP wants shaft lean. Wonders why he doesn't have it. Even his thread title includes the words "SHAFT LEAN".

 

Videos show him flipping/casting to get the face (hopefully) square at impact with no shaft lean at impact. Face appears open at all points of the downswing to anyone looking at pictures on iPhone 3 and above.

 

So - please tell me how the OP can get SHAFT LEAN at impact, given that there are 0.000005 milliseconds between P6.5 and impact, and his face is open at that point.

 

Because his clubface isn't open.

 

This thread has some of the worst advice I've ever seen. You got two people who are seeing phantom open clubfaces, another one who thinks keeping your head back is a good idea, and someone else who thinks the arms are passive in the downswing. Are any of you actually any good?

 

Totally agree.

 

Look at the OP's and Tiger's left shoulders at P6 and notice how much higher the OP's is vs. Tiger's. The OP is forced to lose the extension in his right wrist to get the clubhead down to the ball, otherwise he goes right over it. There is not enough DOWN to his handpath due to how he manages his right shoulder and arm.

 

Forearm rotation is what will square the face.

 

MH,

 

Would you not say that the way OP manages (or rather not) his right arm uses up some of his forearm rolling squaring prematurely? Therefore his clubface is wide open as there is not much squaring left.

 

I think getting the OP's clubface to be far less open is an essential component to improving his arm positioning. Very doubtful that he can correct his faults without this. His move looks athletic enough that his arms and body may react well to changes in clubface orientation.

 

The OP's right forearm has plenty of face closing (CCW) ROM remaining at P6 ... forearm can pronate 180* from neutral. Problem remains that he doesn't have enough DOWN and uses right wrist flexion to get it. If his hands were lower at P6 he could keep the right wrist bent (extended) and possibly be able to hit UP from P6 to P7. Lower hand path has much to do with right shoulder/arm movement and nothing to do with club face orientation.

 

Once you get the hands more down, there needs to be a vertical force put into the shaft in the direction of the arrow before you hit the ball. This snaps the shaft like a whip into its in line position under the left shoulder. You want to hit the ball in the time period where you have already put the vertical force into the shaft but before it reaches its in line position.

[mar.G]

This thread keeps getting better and better

[ferreta]

Hate to be that guy but don’t listen to these guys and get an online lesson from iteachgolf. I think I had similar problems as you, I’m no teacher, and he was able to help me. What is your ball flight like?

[chrisgilly09]

From people who actually measure golfers and dont guess as often. 3:15 is a good barometer, as that position should get the hips/shoulders steep enough to work down and forward into the downswing. Head only stays back at impact because it’s already moved forward in the downswing, not because it was held back the entire time. Dont hold it back. Oh and the face is way open

 

 

 

[CoiledUP]

Square to body, open to path.

[CoiledUP]

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[djamhour]

As the title states, I've been working on not casting and now I am able to do it in my practice swings but as soon as I put a ball down to try and hit my swing completely changes and I cast and have to stand up through the shot, it's really frustrating!

 

You have a hodgepodge sequence with no real matched coordination connecting body and club for maximum power. Your hands are leaving your power source behind, the body's pivot support and rotation. You don't have to "try and hit" the ball, that part even the most uncoordinated can usually accomplish thanks to neural wiring, so don't do anything but hold onto the club from the top while transitioning, then turn hard. When you think you've turned hard, turn harder because you probably didn't turn hard enough and, if you do, the club will come out from behind your hands at the right moment. If you turn correctly you will begin to sense the sequence and how little you actually have to do compared to what you may believe is required. Hit the ball with rotation, not with the club.

 

Yeah I KNOW it’s a rotational legs up swing that creates the power vs yanking on it from the top. But just doing it for so long it’s hard to stop that. I’ve been recently working on a lot of pivot work and rotation work and obviously it hasn’t shown into my swing yet because it feels very different and unnatural for me right now, But I will keep going at it. Funny your name is coiled up because I think my long unnecessary backswing with limited wrist hinge causes an uncoiled backswing so hopefully they will help me ” unwind” “ better

 

 

Hate to be that guy but don’t listen to these guys and get an online lesson from iteachgolf. I think I had similar problems as you, I’m no teacher, and he was able to help me. What is your ball flight like?

 

I don’t know much about him but maybe it’ll be something I consider if I can’t make any progress soon. I just struggle with inconistent strikes, sometimes fat but mostly thin. High weak shots. 7 iron about 140 total but I can hit my driver 250 (not inflated) which isn’t anything special but just to give something to compare to

[mar.G]

A true thin shot should fly low and run far right? High weak doesn't sound right for thin

[CoiledUP]

Yeah I KNOW it's a rotational legs up swing that creates the power vs yanking on it from the top. But just doing it for so long it's hard to stop that. I've been recently working on a lot of pivot work and rotation work and obviously it hasn't shown into my swing yet because it feels very different and unnatural for me right now, But I will keep going at it. Funny your name is coiled up because I think my long unnecessary backswing with limited wrist hinge causes an uncoiled backswing so hopefully they will help me " unwind" " better

 

There is not as much work to do with pivot and rotation as may be thought- all you have to do is feel it once and you're done, you got it and won't forget it. There are some other items going on within your sequence, both going back and starting down, but some of those will subside on their own just by transitioning properly which may cause your back swing to change too, which may be good. Presently, you play with the club outside your hands going back- which is great- but may be troublesome if transition is nervous and jumpy. I would suggest two items to consider at least initially. One, rotate the lead arm going back just a little to minimally open the face, and allow wrists to hinge more. Two, have a friend stand behind you while you swing the club slowly to the top and then stop the club at the top. From there have them grab hold of the club and when they do your job is to turn all of you toward the target.

 

The resistance is a major part of what you're missing, and once you harness resistance then play outside your hands all you want, or inside, doesn't matter, and several different technique options will then be open to you. I helped a friend the other day having your issue of sending the club toward the line on the return swing instead of the club getting deeper and away from the line. Once I grabbed the club at the top and he felt the tug-of-war he was in he got it, and ball striking improved steadily

 

Save some cash, because most of this stuff can be sorted through in a matter of minutes 1:1 on a practice tee versus forum discussions, or online, .etc Good luck.

[djamhour]

Yeah I KNOW it's a rotational legs up swing that creates the power vs yanking on it from the top. But just doing it for so long it's hard to stop that. I've been recently working on a lot of pivot work and rotation work and obviously it hasn't shown into my swing yet because it feels very different and unnatural for me right now, But I will keep going at it. Funny your name is coiled up because I think my long unnecessary backswing with limited wrist hinge causes an uncoiled backswing so hopefully they will help me " unwind" " better

 

There is not as much work to do with pivot and rotation as may be thought- all you have to do is feel it once and you're done, you got it and won't forget it. There are some other items going on within your sequence, both going back and starting down, but some of those will subside on their own just by transitioning properly which may cause your back swing to change too, which may be good. Presently, you play with the club outside your hands going back- which is great- but may be troublesome if transition is nervous and jumpy. I would suggest two items to consider at least initially. One, rotate the lead arm going back just a little to minimally open the face, and allow wrists to hinge more. Two, have a friend stand behind you while you swing the club slowly to the top and then stop the club at the top. From there have them grab hold of the club and when they do your job is to turn all of you toward the target.

 

The resistance is a major part of what you're missing, and once you harness resistance then play outside your hands all you want, or inside, doesn't matter, and several different technique options will then be open to you. I helped a friend the other day having your issue of sending the club toward the line on the return swing instead of the club getting deeper and away from the line. Once I grabbed the club at the top and he felt the tug-of-war he was in he got it, and ball striking improved steadily

 

Save some cash, because most of this stuff can be sorted through in a matter of minutes 1:1 on a practice tee versus forum discussions, or online, .etc Good luck.

 

I know my downswing sequence is off but you mentioned backswing sequence as well. Not disagreeing but what do you see wrong going back? And I will try that drill of someone holding the club at the top before working back down and let you know if the results. If I can’t start figuring it out soon I’ll need to go get a lesson after finding a great instructor around here.

 

And For everyone , my face does seem to be a hair open in the downswing. Especially if it’s regarding my path being out to in, it’s open. I have just seen a video of GG on YouTube I’ll post along with another somewhere. He had a player with an out to in swing that has face open at impact. He said if they a player tried to swing with proper rotation and good release they will hit it right every time because they didn’t learn the forearm roll (left arm supination (palm up) since they’re used to leaving the face open with the out to in path. I know I’m not in to out yet but every time I try to I leave the face open. I’ve tried hitting balls before even with a really strong grip and it cause a push slice to become a push most of the time with an occasional push draw still right of target.

 

Start the video at 3:00 if you want to see the drill. And go to 5:00 if you want to see his reasoning behind it

[djamhour]

So I’ve been working on a ton of different things recently. Those changes include, shorter backswing, earlier wrist hinge, relaxed grip pressure, starting Doenswing with lower body and leaving club along for ride more rotation through impact, coiling up better in backswing, releasing better with shaft lean and Left wrist bowed with helps wrist roll better, and grip end exiting up and left after impact (DTL)Still a long way but it seeing a little improvement. What are your thoughts? Thanks

 

 

 

This is the ONLY DTL practice video I have unfortunately.. but had this midswing , it shows impact position so it might helpful. If not no big deal

http://youtu.be/HRqIWz2n38w

[djamhour]

This is a swing without much thought.

http://youtu.be/NBHEJq0hLs8

 

 

This swing is focusing on earlier wrist hinge with a shortened backswing and focusing on a relaxed smooth downswing with club along for ride with bowed left wrist

http://youtu.be/xp-Bn3hOVpI

 

Thought I hadA good DTL video but didn’t so this is all I had. I know the swing is far from a finished product but I think I’m heading in the right direction? Please Let me know what you think. Thanks

[Socrates]

This is way better than it was in the first few videos. Still need to work on initiating with the lower body and hips and let the arms follow their lead. That will stop that little bit of a flip you've still got. Much improved though.

 

Probably taking the keys out of your left pocket will let your weight get on to your right side easier. ;)