Greater in Number: Vanity Handicaps or Sandbaggers?

[DavePelz4]

I almost always love me some vanity caps. Easy money!

 

However, it can come back to bite you in the a**.

 

My best friend. He’s one of those guys who hits a second shot, or rolls s second putt, quite often. Or is of the mindset of well this or that “should have happened,so I would have scored this”. He doesn’t write down scores, so when he’s finished, he honestly believes those “do overs” are what he scored. I really belive he believes. He’s as honest as the day is long, and would never purposefully cheat. But when the round is over and he’s tallying up scores, he apparently completely forgets the initial shots.

 

He calls most days to tell me about yesterday’s round, and it’s ussuall “I think I shot”or “ I was one over, or even” He’s gotten to the point that he doesn’t even really know. So, what in reality should be a handicap in the 12-15 range usually ends up in the 6-8 area. It doesn’t matter to us since in that group we don’t play for anything. But then tournaments roll around............. And as I’ve said here numerous times here, for us in our area, that means scrambles. Our big early season event is coming up, it usually runs a couple hundred per man. And he’s asking about playing.

 

Add in he’s a TERRIBLE tournament player. Makes a tough situation.

 

Anyway, the point to my long winded story. He’s a big time vanity, but not on purpose. He really believes it.

 

Does he look like this guy???

 

 

 

Unfortunately, that looks a lot more like me than him! All I need are the glasses. I'm not kidding when I post about my ugliness!!

 

You do pretty well for a young buck. As a guy in my advanced stages of life, I can say that with all comfort.

 

Or maybe I've sniffed too many KSigs today.

[Aaronwilson_95]

Problem is (IMO ) up tees aren’t rated for good players to be playing . At my course we have a lot off hazards that come into play off the tee that you have to lay short off but can’t force carry them all and turn it into a pitch and putt. I find I’m hitting the same clubs into the greeens if I’m playing 6000 yards or 6700 yards. Plus if your a long hitter and low handicap it’s pretty easy to get rolled by a 14 handicap who all he does it make pars and bogeys. Especially in a stableford game. Guys I play with don’t do minuses which doesn’t help me but helps them a ton.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Problem is (IMO ) up tees aren't rated for good players to be playing .

 

They are. If they weren't, it would really make a mess of the handicap system.

[tigerfan23]

Ive been on both sides. Even though I am honest with my HC.

 

When I was playing well a few years ago I was a 4. I felt like I could beat any scratch golfer at my club and was trending down. Had a few really really good scores but always had the duds that kept the HC up. Felt like a Sandbagger.

 

Now I am playing at a 7. I don't think i could beat anyone. Last 2 years were horrible and I would get lucky once in a while to keep the cap down but honestly I was playing like a 10-12. Feel like it's a vanity Cap.

 

This season is off to a great start and again I think as a 7 Ill wipe the floor with the other 7s at my club. Again I feel like a sand bagger.

[larrybud]

And, you post a few low rounds and your HI plunges, relative to posting a few high rounds.

Again, this is mostly a matter of timing, it depends on what scores are being replaced with the new ones. If you shoot a couple of high scores, and the old scores being replaced are some of your better ones, your handicap will definitely go up.

 

I have seen it go up, but the up increments are much smaller than the down increments. Overall though, it's been going down more than up. Last season I went from a 12 to a 7. Though at times I don't feel like a 7. :-)

 

There's no bias in the USGA handicapping formula which makes the increments go down more than the increments go up if you're shooting the same differentials. If there was, it would mean that Player 1 who has the same last 20 differentials as Player 2, but shot in a different order, would end up with a different handicap, which he does not.

 

You only experienced that because your best 10 differentials actually dropped 5 shots.

[bladehunter]

Problem is (IMO ) up tees aren’t rated for good players to be playing . At my course we have a lot off hazards that come into play off the tee that you have to lay short off but can’t force carry them all and turn it into a pitch and putt. I find I’m hitting the same clubs into the greeens if I’m playing 6000 yards or 6700 yards. Plus if your a long hitter and low handicap it’s pretty easy to get rolled by a 14 handicap who all he does it make pars and bogeys. Especially in a stableford game. Guys I play with don’t do minuses which doesn’t help me but helps them a ton.

 

Thank you. Thank you thank you.

 

I just had this damn argument. My home course is tight. Any handicapped events they force us all to play up to the middle tee unless you’re over 60. Then you play the forward. My 2 handicap from the back is adjusted per the course rating to 0 when I move up. Yet. I hit most of the approaches the same club. In other words it takes Driver completely out of my hands ,I lay up to the same yardage’s off the tee and there goes my advantage.

 

Every year I get paired with a 10 -15 Handicap in the match play and get flogged. He will make a damn par on evey hole he gets a stroke on and I have to make birdies to halve. Utter horse s***. I just withdrew from the bracket on Saturday. Not doing it this year.

[Roadking2003]

I just had this damn argument. My home course is tight. Any handicapped events they force us all to play up to the middle tee unless you're over 60. Then you play the forward. My 2 handicap from the back is adjusted per the course rating to 0 when I move up. Yet. I hit most of the approaches the same club. In other words it takes Driver completely out of my hands ,I lay up to the same yardage's off the tee and there goes my advantage.

 

Every year I get paired with a 10 -15 Handicap in the match play and get flogged. He will make a damn par on evey hole he gets a stroke on and I have to make birdies to halve. Utter horse s***. I just withdrew from the bracket on Saturday. Not doing it this year.

 

If driving distance is your only strength, you shouldn't be a 2. You should also beat the 10-15 on your layup shot and your approach to the green, and your scrambling and your putting.

 

And if a 10-15 makes par on the 10-15 toughest holes, he's not a 10-15. A 10-15 is a 10-15 because he makes very few pars on average.

 

A 10 capper averages about 6 pars per round. A 15 capper averages about 3 pars per round. And they would be more likely to make those pars on the easier holes where they don't get strokes.

 

Just doing the math.

[bladehunter]

I just had this damn argument. My home course is tight. Any handicapped events they force us all to play up to the middle tee unless you're over 60. Then you play the forward. My 2 handicap from the back is adjusted per the course rating to 0 when I move up. Yet. I hit most of the approaches the same club. In other words it takes Driver completely out of my hands ,I lay up to the same yardage's off the tee and there goes my advantage.

 

Every year I get paired with a 10 -15 Handicap in the match play and get flogged. He will make a damn par on evey hole he gets a stroke on and I have to make birdies to halve. Utter horse s***. I just withdrew from the bracket on Saturday. Not doing it this year.

 

If driving distance is your only strength, you shouldn't be a 2. You should also beat the 10-15 on your layup shot and your approach to the green, and your scrambling and your putting.

 

And if a 10-15 makes par on the 10-15 toughest holes, he's not a 10-15. A 10-15 is a 10-15 because he makes very few pars on average.

 

A 10 capper averages about 6 pars per round. A 15 capper averages about 3 pars per round. And they would be more likely to make those pars on the easier holes where they don't get strokes.

 

Just doing the math.

 

 

i buy that logic.. wish i could hire someone to explain it to my handicap committee .....we have literally 2 different 9s that i play with regularly who ive seen shot 69-70 ....regularly 73-75.... we have an 18 who i was beat by in match play and who shot a real 36 ( even par ) on me on the front nine of that loosing effort.... hes old as dirt and barely gets it off the ground...but from the forward tee he will roll it where hes looking.... and can chip and putt like a tour pro...in short my entire club is a sand bag pit... we have another infamous 19 handicap who will not post a good round.. ... when you are one of the younger of an older club its tough to call out " your elders".... i just have chosen to not play anymore... not if its handicapped.... to give this perspective.. our club champ isnt handicapped... i finished 3rd last year after leading most of the last round.... winner was very deserving ... and if you looked at the order all seemed as it should be ... throw in a handicap and its whoever cheats the most will win. Im done with it .

 

 

driving distance isnt my only strength...but when you make a par in match play it shouldnt be an automatic loss of hole .... you shouldnt feel as if birdies on every hole is required... it forces aggressive play ... which produces a couple bogeys... which loses in match play..

 

in case a vanity cap is what you are thinking. i have a 65 T score still on my 20 scores ....try getting a handicap up with that on your resume... I dont want it up.. i want everyone elses down

[SNIPERBBB]

We don't play anything serious with caps at our club for that reason. Our leagues play with caps. Our one Pro-Am event, caps are assigned, the computer be darned. Games among members ditto, strokes are negotiated if any are to be given.

[Roadking2003]

I just had this damn argument. My home course is tight. Any handicapped events they force us all to play up to the middle tee unless you're over 60. Then you play the forward. My 2 handicap from the back is adjusted per the course rating to 0 when I move up. Yet. I hit most of the approaches the same club. In other words it takes Driver completely out of my hands ,I lay up to the same yardage's off the tee and there goes my advantage.

 

Every year I get paired with a 10 -15 Handicap in the match play and get flogged. He will make a damn par on evey hole he gets a stroke on and I have to make birdies to halve. Utter horse s***. I just withdrew from the bracket on Saturday. Not doing it this year.

 

If driving distance is your only strength, you shouldn't be a 2. You should also beat the 10-15 on your layup shot and your approach to the green, and your scrambling and your putting.

 

And if a 10-15 makes par on the 10-15 toughest holes, he's not a 10-15. A 10-15 is a 10-15 because he makes very few pars on average.

 

A 10 capper averages about 6 pars per round. A 15 capper averages about 3 pars per round. And they would be more likely to make those pars on the easier holes where they don't get strokes.

 

Just doing the math.

 

 

i buy that logic.. wish i could hire someone to explain it to my handicap committee .....we have literally 2 different 9s that i play with regularly who ive seen shot 69-70 ....regularly 73-75.... we have an 18 who i was beat by in match play and who shot a real 36 ( even par ) on me on the front nine of that loosing effort.... hes old as dirt and barely gets it off the ground...but from the forward tee he will roll it where hes looking.... and can chip and putt like a tour pro...in short my entire club is a sand bag pit... we have another infamous 19 handicap who will not post a good round.. ... when you are one of the younger of an older club its tough to call out " your elders".... i just have chosen to not play anymore... not if its handicapped.... to give this perspective.. our club champ isnt handicapped... i finished 3rd last year after leading most of the last round.... winner was very deserving ... and if you looked at the order all seemed as it should be ... throw in a handicap and its whoever cheats the most will win. Im done with it .

 

 

driving distance isnt my only strength...but when you make a par in match play it shouldnt be an automatic loss of hole .... you shouldnt feel as if birdies on every hole is required... it forces aggressive play ... which produces a couple bogeys... which loses in match play..

 

in case a vanity cap is what you are thinking. i have a 65 T score still on my 20 scores ....try getting a handicap up with that on your resume... I dont want it up.. i want everyone elses down

 

I agree with you and believe not playing is the right decision. Maybe you could form a coalition and approach the committee with some facts. Or form a handicap audit committee that would investigate every top 3 result. Auditing can be done quite easily since you don't need to audit everyone. Just the winners.

[davep043]

All I can say is MAKE SURE ALL SCORES ARE POSTED. If someone goes scary low on you, walk to the handicap computer with them and watch them enter their score. And enter your own too. And if they refuse, and if your handicap committee refuses to enforce the rules, report the damn club to your local golf association, and ask to have your club audited.

[bladehunter]

All I can say is MAKE SURE ALL SCORES ARE POSTED. If someone goes scary low on you, walk to the handicap computer with them and watch them enter their score. And enter your own too. And if they refuse, and if your handicap committee refuses to enforce the rules, report the damn club to your local golf association, and ask to have your club audited.

 

 

Yes sir. I’m close to it. Things are fizzling since I withdrew Saturday. 3 more lower caps have pulled out. Which has wrecked the bracket. The pro is my neighbor. And a friend. But he’s hard headed and a bit dense. Lol. I’m going try every avenue to resolve this peacefully. But I’m pretty pissed that I pay dues at a place I can’t compete at. If it weren’t so close to me I’d just leave.

 

 

Another note I’ll leave with is this. We have a pretty regular 15-20 man skins game. Listed +2 to 15 handicaps. And not a one ever asks for strokes. We always play even. And skins are always pretty evenly distributed over a long term. And random days someone will take most of the pot. That tells me that we are all pretty even. I’d say legit +2 to 5 handicap bunch. Yet when handicap event time comes around we are all over the map.

[davep043]

All I can say is MAKE SURE ALL SCORES ARE POSTED. If someone goes scary low on you, walk to the handicap computer with them and watch them enter their score. And enter your own too. And if they refuse, and if your handicap committee refuses to enforce the rules, report the damn club to your local golf association, and ask to have your club audited.

 

 

Yes sir. I'm close to it. Things are fizzling since I withdrew Saturday. 3 more lower caps have pulled out. Which has wrecked the bracket. The pro is my neighbor. And a friend. But he's hard headed and a bit dense. Lol. I'm going try every avenue to resolve this peacefully. But I'm pretty pissed that I pay dues at a place I can't compete at. If it weren't so close to me I'd just leave.

 

A lot of people don't realize that there's supposed to be oversight, beyond the club level. This is from the USGA Handicap Manual, Appendic G, Golf Club Audit Procedures:

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14413

Any authorized golf club that is reported to the USGA in writing as having a potential compliance issue is immediately subject to an audit.

If an audited golf club does not satisfy the audit process, the USGA will send a letter stating the non-conforming issues. A time limit will be set for the club to cure its deficiencies or run the risk of being dropped from the authorized golf club list located at www.usga.org, including losing its ability to utilize the USGA Handicap System.

I have no personal experience with an audit, I don't know how the USGA reacts to a written complaint, but its worth mentioning in your discussions with the pro, and whoever else works with him on handicaps. I think the potential for a golf club to be unable to provide handicaps for its members would be a big embarrassment, and a reason to reform. You should also be aware that the pro is specifically not allowed to Chair the Handicap Committee. I see lots of complaints in the forums, and a sense of helplessness. If you want it to improve, you might have to make an effort to be involved. If there's a committee that refuses to do things correctly, asking for an audit might be the last chance you have. Good luck!

[mark m]

Blade:

 

A good place to start is to buy the USGA Handicap Manual. Yes, it is all available online for free. But it is harder to find things unless you know what to look for. I would buy at least 3 and leave one with your pro and a club leader. It's better than quoting from it or printing pages. I have at least 2 or 3 and they are all dog-eared. It's only $2.00:

 

https://www.usgapublications.com/collections/handicapping/products/the-usga-handicap-system-manual-2016-edition?variant=25702063750

[bladehunter]

Blade:

 

A good place to start is to buy the USGA Handicap Manual. Yes, it is all available online for free. But it is harder to find things unless you know what to look for. I would buy at least 3 and leave one with your pro and a club leader. It's better than quoting from it or printing pages. I have at least 2 or 3 and they are all dog-eared. It's only $2.00:

 

https://www.usgapubl...ant=25702063750

 

 

thanks for the info! im going about this as nicely as i can ... I dont want to make enemies...and im not alone in this.. yet i may have been elected spokesperson..lol so i appreciate the help...

[ping rat]

definitely more vanity caps out there than sandbaggers, thing is you can spot a vanity cap in few holes, sandbaggers however can operate for years under the radar

[Dannys1208]

I'm confused. Do a lot of you guys not know handicap is your best 10 out of last 20 rounds, so your high scores don't matter. ��‍♂️

 

Of course high scores matter because they're rolling off potential low half of differentials from your last 20 rounds.

 

Simple example, let's say your last 20 differentials you had 10 of them which were a 5.0, and 10 of them which were an 10.0. Average of the low 10 is 5.0. Your handicap index would be 4.80 (96% of 5.0)

 

Now you play another round, with amazingly, another differential of 10.0

 

Now your best 10 are 9 differentials of 5.0, and 1 of 10.0, with an average of 5.50, and now your index is 5.28

 

Your high score MATTERED.

True they matter....shouldn’t of said that exactly.

[Dannys1208]

I’m confused. Do a lot of you guys not know handicap is your best 10 out of last 20 rounds, so your high scores don’t matter. ?‍♂️

 

I think most everybody in here knows that. Although as Davep043 pointed out they can matter if they are knocking low numbers out of the 20.

yes most people know, while reading through some responses I was getting the impression some people didn’t. And yes they can matter.

[davep043]

Blade:

 

A good place to start is to buy the USGA Handicap Manual. Yes, it is all available online for free. But it is harder to find things unless you know what to look for. I would buy at least 3 and leave one with your pro and a club leader. It's better than quoting from it or printing pages. I have at least 2 or 3 and they are all dog-eared. It's only $2.00:

 

https://www.usgapubl...ant=25702063750

 

 

thanks for the info! im going about this as nicely as i can ... I dont want to make enemies...and im not alone in this.. yet i may have been elected spokesperson..lol so i appreciate the help...

Good luck on your quest, I hope it works out. One thing I can say from personal experience, you may indeed make a few people unhappy, but you'll find a much larger number will thank you for trying to make the competitions more fair. One more resource for you is the USGA's online Handicap Seminar.

https://www.usga.org/HDCPLicClubSeminar/index.asp

[naval2006]

At least half of the single digit cappers are vanity. The parody ends the moment they swing the stick.

[SNIPERBBB]

On the handicap manuals....shouldn't those be issued with the club's USGA/state GA membership?

[davep043]

On the handicap manuals....shouldn't those be issued with the club's USGA/state GA membership?

I would think they would be. However, if I'm in @bladehunter's position, going into the pro's office, attempting to change and improve handicap enforcement, I'd want to be prepared with my own copy of the Manual.

[2putttom]

definitely more vanity caps out there than sandbaggers, thing is you can spot a vanity cap in few holes, sandbaggers however can operate for years under the radar

definitely more vanity caps out there than sandbaggers, thing is you can spot a vanity cap in few holes, sandbaggers however can operate for years under the radar

I have lost a lot of money to this effect

[ping rat]

definitely more vanity caps out there than sandbaggers, thing is you can spot a vanity cap in few holes, sandbaggers however can operate for years under the radar

definitely more vanity caps out there than sandbaggers, thing is you can spot a vanity cap in few holes, sandbaggers however can operate for years under the radar

I have lost a lot of money to this effect

you and I both, I am always concerned in team games when an unknown single digit shows up, yet to see one play to their cap.

[rmofo83]

In the UK i do not know many people with vanity handicaps everyone seems to just want a handicap they can play too?

 

I knew a chap who in perfect conditions (warm, no wind firm fairways but soft greens etc) he shot 72/74/74 his best three ever (and still are) in succession and got dropped from 14 to 7 he never shot near his handicap till it climbed it's way back to double digits about 18 months later.

 

He said it took the fun away as he was competing to a standard he certainly couldn't replicate and played less and less golf after that.

 

It's ability versus consistency personally I have a lot of good attributes for golf and when everything is going well I can break par however I also am likely to spend weeks spraying the ball over the place struggling to break 85

[Deceptively Short]

In the UK i do not know many people with vanity handicaps everyone seems to just want a handicap they can play too?

 

I knew a chap who in perfect conditions (warm, no wind firm fairways but soft greens etc) he shot 72/74/74 his best three ever (and still are) in succession and got dropped from 14 to 7 he never shot near his handicap till it climbed it's way back to double digits about 18 months later.

 

He said it took the fun away as he was competing to a standard he certainly couldn't replicate and played less and less golf after that.

 

It's ability versus consistency personally I have a lot of good attributes for golf and when everything is going well I can break par however I also am likely to spend weeks spraying the ball over the place struggling to break 85

 

 

 

Under CONGU it is pretty difficult/impossible to have a vanity handicap. I think this is why ones handicap is more valued.

[Noles]

The best is when a clear vanity cap calls someone out on being a sandbagger. In my days of being a caddy I have seen it happen and I've also seen it as a player at my current club. Every time, the vanity cap regretted making the accusation because they were met with a dose of reality.

[davep043]

The best is when a clear vanity cap calls someone out on being a sandbagger. In my days of being a caddy I have seen it happen and I've also seen it as a player at my current club. Every time, the vanity cap regretted making the accusation because they were met with a dose of reality.

I see this pretty often too. Just because the Vanity guy never plays to his handicap in competitions, he believes that nobody else should.

[SNIPERBBB]

Your not actually supposed to play to your cap. If you do, you're cap is going down.

[ping rat]

Your not actually supposed to play to your cap. If you do, you're cap is going down.

You are exactly right, the problem that I am eluding to though is the guy who shows up to a game like a stableford that we play regularly at my club and declares to be a 6 handicap and is put on a team as a A or B player then goes out and shoots in the 90's and in doing so takes 3 other guys out of contention. If you want to claim that vanity 6 go out and play one on one and keep paying up. My home club is a difficult course and i rarely shoot at or better than my handicap but tend to shoot lower on away courses, but I post everything.