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A great way to simplify and understand the elbows is to address the ball, hinge the club up vertically so the shaft is touching the forehead, then coil behind the ball to the top of the backswing while maintaining your connection.

 

Agreed. Just don't see the difference between hinging and folding. To me the terms are interchangeable. T

 

This is my swing : I already struggle maintaining width in downswing. If I folding or hinged my left elbow I think it would add or complicate things but thats why I am trying to understand what JB is really saying.

 

 

I would argue that width at the top doesn't make a dime's with of difference, in principle.

 

The only width that is important is the "width", or distance, from your chest to the ball at address. I don't care if you collapse everything at the top or keep everything stiff and rigid at the top. If your width isn't basically the same at impact as at address you are going to miss the shot.

 

I will argue that it doesn't make any difference if you are wide or folded at the top, because you have not stored more energy and released more energy in either case. What is different in the two cases is a matter of different geometry - the motion of the body and club are different in the two cases. But if you have loaded up and stored the same amount of energy in both cases such that your body is unwinding and fully releasing the stored energy in both cases, and the width is the same at impact in both cases (and if it isn't you are going to miss the ball) it doesn't really matter. My evidence is the following:

 

 

He is a long drive competitor. Power and distance are everything to this sort of person and he clearly doesn't feel the need to maintain width at the top.

 

The advantage of the geometry of the Ballard swing is a consistency of motion that reliably delivers a square club face into the ball at impact, and this is brought about by maintaining connection by allowing the arms to fold at the elbows and not attempting to maintain width via a stiff left arm that can lead to disconnection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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A great way to simplify and understand the elbows is to address the ball, hinge the club up vertically so the shaft is touching the forehead, then coil behind the ball to the top of the backswing while maintaining your connection.

 

Agreed. Just don't see the difference between hinging and folding. To me the terms are interchangeable. T

 

This is my swing : I already struggle maintaining width in downswing. If I folding or hinged my left elbow I think it would add or complicate things but thats why I am trying to understand what JB is really saying.

 

 

I would argue that width at the top doesn't make a dime's with of difference, in principle.

 

The only width that is important is the "width", or distance, from your chest to the ball at address. I don't care if you collapse everything at the top or keep everything stiff and rigid at the top. If your width isn't basically the same at impact as at address you are going to miss the shot.

 

I will argue that it doesn't make any difference if you are wide or folded at the top, because you have not stored more energy and released more energy in either case. What is different in the two cases is a matter of different geometry - the motion of the body and club are different in the two cases. But if you have loaded up and stored the same amount of energy in both cases such that your body is unwinding and fully releasing the stored energy in both cases, and the width is the same at impact in both cases (and if it isn't you are going to miss the ball) it doesn't really matter. My evidence is the following:

 

 

He is a long drive competitor. Power and distance are everything to this sort of person and he clearly doesn't feel the need to maintain width at the top.

 

The advantage of the geometry of the Ballard swing is a consistency of motion that reliably delivers a square club face into the ball at impact, and this is brought about by maintaining connection by allowing the arms to fold at the elbows and not attempting to maintain width via a stiff left arm that can lead to disconnection.

 

Awesome post! Much appreciated that wisdom Man!

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Agreed. Just don't see the difference between hinging and folding. To me the terms are interchangeable. T

 

Folding makes you lose width, hinging is more subtle and is meant to replace wrist c0ck and helps incorporate the big muscles... hinging helps the arms work up where wrist c0ck kills the legs and makes the swing go around and incorporates the small muscles.

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In that YouTube clip of JB he clearly states (showing the backswing)....."if I can get you firm here (top of the backswing), I can get the elbow to fold here (at impact)"

 

Where does the soft hinging left elbow come into play?!?!?!

 

 

No width, that’s folding the elbows and losing width in my opinion. Find me one guy on tour that has that look.... I like the drill, but not how narrow he makes it look. Jimmy might disagree, but that’s my opinion. You can’t maximize your distance with no width.

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A great way to simplify and understand the elbows is to address the ball, hinge the club up vertically so the shaft is touching the forehead, then coil behind the ball to the top of the backswing while maintaining your connection.

 

Ever tried presetting this position and swinging? Seems like it would eliminate a lot of BS in the backswing :search:

 

Only on the range, if you practice it enough you will slowly incorporate it into your swing.... JB loves that drill.

 

My friend....thank you for chiming in.

I'll hit the range tomorrow and see what happens.

 

------------

 

 

Mentioned earlier is hinging the elbows instead of hinging the wrists.

If I may ask, is that the same thought as getting the brace for the right wrist so the right wrist doesn't bend aka hinge front he elbows?

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In that YouTube clip of JB he clearly states (showing the backswing)....."if I can get you firm here (top of the backswing), I can get the elbow to fold here (at impact)"

 

Where does the soft hinging left elbow come into play?!?!?!

 

 

No width, that’s folding the elbows and losing width in my opinion. Find me one guy on tour that has that look.... I like the drill, but not how narrow he makes it look. Jimmy might disagree, but that’s my opinion. You can’t maximize your distance with no width.

 

V Harness that JB endorses is all about width

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A great way to simplify and understand the elbows is to address the ball, hinge the club up vertically so the shaft is touching the forehead, then coil behind the ball to the top of the backswing while maintaining your connection.

 

Agreed. Just don't see the difference between hinging and folding. To me the terms are interchangeable. T

 

Explain this???? Totally lack of width. Never seen a good ball striker do this since Harry Vardon

 

 

Folding/ Hinging elbows like this makes me want to go to a different teacher. I personally think we have some bad interpretations of soft arms.

 

I wrote something very similar in a post tonight before reading this. I guarantee he can’t break an egg. I love JB, but he has never taught me to look like that, it’s so unathletic looking.

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A great way to simplify and understand the elbows is to address the ball, hinge the club up vertically so the shaft is touching the forehead, then coil behind the ball to the top of the backswing while maintaining your connection.

 

Agreed. Just don't see the difference between hinging and folding. To me the terms are interchangeable. T

 

Explain this???? Totally lack of width. Never seen a good ball striker do this since Harry Vardon

 

 

Folding/ Hinging elbows like this makes me want to go to a different teacher. I personally think we have some bad interpretations of soft arms.

 

I wrote something very similar in a post tonight before reading this. I guarantee he can’t break an egg. I love JB, but he has never taught me to look like that, it’s so unathletic looking.

 

Actually Abrams dies look like Vardon!

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Not a fan of that look at all, plus hickory shafts made a huge difference too.... the great Bobby Jones didn't have much width either, but I would compare era to era and the guy with the least width in our era that had a DESCENT career would be Paul Goydos.

 

Jimmy Ballard has been saying this to me for years and I would have to agree.... one of the greatest swings in golf, men or women, is Annika Sorenstam, now that is a simple swing that isn't too complicated and shouldn't be hard to emulate:

 

 

When I see guys like Bill Abrams swing, it looks to me like they took the whole bottle of aspirin, instead of just a few pills, just my opinion though.

 

I agree. Abrams has exaggerated bigly. I can see why jB like Sorenstam, but in her backswing she gets some angle then gets to a cupped position. Check out Cabrera, I believe he does the Ballard Triangle better than anybody at the top and hits it a mile.

 

Start 7:00 minutes into

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Not a fan of that look at all, plus hickory shafts made a huge difference too.... the great Bobby Jones didn't have much width either, but I would compare era to era and the guy with the least width in our era that had a DESCENT career would be Paul Goydos.

 

Jimmy Ballard has been saying this to me for years and I would have to agree.... one of the greatest swings in golf, men or women, is Annika Sorenstam, now that is a simple swing that isn't too complicated and shouldn't be hard to emulate:

 

 

When I see guys like Bill Abrams swing, it looks to me like they took the whole bottle of aspirin, instead of just a few pills, just my opinion though.

 

JB says angles make balls go crooked. Cabrera is perfect imo compared to Sorenstam w/o angles. Annika has to recover some.

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A great way to simplify and understand the elbows is to address the ball, hinge the club up vertically so the shaft is touching the forehead, then coil behind the ball to the top of the backswing while maintaining your connection.

 

Agreed. Just don't see the difference between hinging and folding. To me the terms are interchangeable. T

 

This is my swing : I already struggle maintaining width in downswing. If I folding or hinged my left elbow I think it would add or complicate things but thats why I am trying to understand what JB is really saying.

 

 

I would argue that width at the top doesn't make a dime's with of difference, in principle.

 

The only width that is important is the "width", or distance, from your chest to the ball at address. I don't care if you collapse everything at the top or keep everything stiff and rigid at the top. If your width isn't basically the same at impact as at address you are going to miss the shot.

 

I will argue that it doesn't make any difference if you are wide or folded at the top, because you have not stored more energy and released more energy in either case. What is different in the two cases is a matter of different geometry - the motion of the body and club are different in the two cases. But if you have loaded up and stored the same amount of energy in both cases such that your body is unwinding and fully releasing the stored energy in both cases, and the width is the same at impact in both cases (and if it isn't you are going to miss the ball) it doesn't really matter. My evidence is the following:

 

 

He is a long drive competitor. Power and distance are everything to this sort of person and he clearly doesn't feel the need to maintain width at the top.

 

The advantage of the geometry of the Ballard swing is a consistency of motion that reliably delivers a square club face into the ball at impact, and this is brought about by maintaining connection by allowing the arms to fold at the elbows and not attempting to maintain width via a stiff left arm that can lead to disconnection.

 

Awesome post! Much appreciated that wisdom Man!

 

Yeah. I have thought about this question. I come at it less from a golf instruction standpoint than from a question of forces/motions/energy. My background is engineering, so what you get from me on the question is more of an engineering technical perspective than a golf instruction perspective - you wind up the machine and the machine unwinds and, at the bottom of it all, that’s all there is. (And, BTW this is a big reason that I like the Ballard method - everything he teaches is consistent with my understanding of forces and motions. And this, from my experience, is a somewhat of an exception to the rule in golf instruction, where there is a lot of stuff being taught that cannot be supported on the basis of forces and motions.)

 

There is a companion sort of question that I have thought about - the proper role of the wrists for storing energy that can be used in generating clubhead speed. When you see a player like deChambeau hitting it out there 330 yards with stiff wrists, you say... WTF?! This isn’t what conventional wisdom is teaching...

 

My sense of it is that it doesn’t make any difference what happens with wrists insofar as power and distance, really. If you have supple wrists you have a weak spring. If you have stiff wrists you have a strong spring. It is the inertia of the swinging club that causes the spring to deflect. If BDC lets his wrists be soft he has a weak spring. If he does what he does he has a strong spring. Set two coil springs side by side on the floor, one strong and one weak, and drop a given weight on each of them from a given height. The weight will recoil back to the exact same height in both cases - there is no advantage of one over the other in terms of getting a bigger recoil. In the case of the weak spring the weight will deflect the spring more than in the case of the strong spring, but in terms of what happens to the recoil of the dropped weight there is no difference, none.

 

Maybe players like BDC, and Stricker and others, do this sort of thing because they feel that it helps them create a geometry in the swing that has less variability, a guess on my part.

 

I think that Ballard’s way is pure genius, maybe more genius than even he realizes. Think of this: We have six joints in our arms - four universal joints (shoulders and wrists) and two knuckle joints (elbows), to borrow from automotive terms. These create havoc in the golf swing. Stand with your back against a wall with a club held in front of you. This immobilizes all moving parts in the body except the arms. Now let these six joints move all around, willy nilly, in all possible directions. How do you control all of these moving parts? Golf swing havoc! Pros can do it due to great athleticism and hitting 600 ball every day. We mere mortals are left with a big problem. Along comes Ballard. He says connect the left elbow. What does this do? It places four of the six trouble makers under control - shoulders and elbows - by restricting their motion and sychronizing them with the body. Wrists? Ballard wants the grip of the club in the palm of the hand, not the fingers. This reduces the distance from the grip to the wrist joint, in effect minimizing the amount of independent motion that the wrist can undergo. Moe Norman did this, too. So, Ballard puts these six joints under the best control of any method I know of.

 

In the end, what we get with Ballard is proper use of forces and motions, as I see it. The forces (hence energy) are maximized through a footwork/weight transfer method that winds up the large muscles of the legs and shoulders, which is where the real power comes from. His method may not wind up the muscles quite as much as other methods, but it does create a great deal of power, more than enough for anybody to hit the ball far, and it is easy on the body. The motions/geometry of the troublesome upper body joints are controlled through connection and the way he wants the club gripped. This is the way that I see the beauty of the Ballard method for us mere mortals.

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TorBill do u feel like u backhand someone to get club started or feel like u come “up”?

 

First .07 seconds shows Kratzert going sideways which seems more powerful loading than coming up infront at address drill

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CnEqXuiHLVE

 

The former, if I understand your question. (Incidentally, no Kratzert in the link...)

 

To repeat earlier: I am a recovering blocker. I use the backhand thought more as a general re-training method than a regular, on-course swing thought. I will use it around the house without a golf club, in my family room with a club, on the range when practicing. I will do it fast, I will do it slow so that I can feel the body parts at work. I normally do it many times a day to help me drive out the hip rock demons.

 

The specific thought that I use - and this is my mind at work, not anybody else’s - is to start the backswing by telling my body to move the back of my lead hand away from the target in a gradual arc as my body shifts, never letting the back of my hand start to rotate upward toward the sky which would disconnect the elbow and cause the club to go low and around - my body moves the back of my hand, I never snatch it back with my wrists/arms. If my body causes my hand to make the proper move for the first 18” or so it seems to set up the entire geometry of the swing, automatically, including the triangle. I can feel my weight shift strongly into a coil, my back hip staying high, my spine shifting backward but not tipping, lead elbow connected, hands almost the opposite of the hold the tray feel at the top.

 

Once I get to the top I just seem to recoil, with the idea of banging the back of the golf cart, getting the back of my hand right back where it started. My back hip stays high I feel tall, my spine/placket shifts forward, my elbow stays connected rather than separating, and I can feel the toe of the club release. For a blocker, it is a new thing to actually feel the toe of the club release. If I have done it well, the club grip and my hands are typically touching the top, or near the top, of the tip of my shoulder at the finish and I am directly facing the target, standing tall and maybe leaning a bit toward the target like speedster.

 

This is not necessarily a swing thought. My goal is to think about my game, not my swing, when I am on the golf course. If it is a good day, everything works. But our minds and bodies vary by the day, so if I come to the course and am struggling, then I will resort to things like the back of my hand for the first 18”, or shifting my spine/placket back to the adddress position to start the downswing, or various thoughts to get my swing back on track. The great thing about the Ballard method is that I understand my swing so much better that I am actually capable of sorting out some of my problems as I am playing - this is different from my previous 35 years of golf.

 

Gotta go, 9:00 tee time, so exciting!

 

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I listen to Jimmy and I spend a lot of time grooving my motion....I know my game, I’m not trying to be perfect, but I am trying to repeat my swing and take one side of the course out of play. I don’t want angles, but I know I have some, but there are plenty of great ball strikers who have angles... regardless, I just like Annika’s overall motion and freeness of her swing. I use very little video because I don’t want to get over technical... in the end, the only thing that really matters after a round is what score you shot. I guess that is easier said than done, but I’m at a point where I’m not trying to change too much in my game, I’ll just go see Jimmy once a month or so, pick one main point from the lesson and focus on grooving that until I see him next time. Find peace in your swing and game, I promise Golf will be a lot more fun!

 

JB would say perfect imo. What do u think? Triangle, center and thumbs under shaft. This guy flat out rios a power fade. Senior tour in October gonna b fun to watch!

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Quick question about the right arm release.

 

So the right shoulder must be up to hit down....moves horizontally.

As for the “feeling” of the arm / elbow......should it feel like I am throwing a softball underhand or throwing sideways like a tennis forehand?

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The more I study JB the more I realize the Hogan connection (via Byrd/Ruth). I tried to study Hogan for a few years but with real insight. imo with all the mis information on Hogan out there I never got it. JB is like a fresh of breath air, born golf teacher.

 

Speedster just wanted to let you know the right handed glove you recommend has transformed my back swing. Can't believe how many pros I have heard give the advice of "holding the tray".

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The more I study JB the more I realize the Hogan connection (via Byrd/Ruth). I tried to study Hogan for a few years but with real insight. imo with all the mis information on Hogan out there I never got it. JB is like a fresh of breath air, born golf teacher.

 

Speedster just wanted to let you know the right handed glove you recommend has transformed my back swing. Can't believe how many pros I have heard give the advice of "holding the tray".

Right handed glove? Can ya refresh please? thanks

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Quick question about the right arm release.

 

So the right shoulder must be up to hit down....moves horizontally.

As for the "feeling" of the arm / elbow......should it feel like I am throwing a softball underhand or throwing sideways like a tennis forehand?

 

Side arm.... like you are throwing a baseball side arm to the first baseman.

 

 

 

http://www.stevewoze...as-showing-you/

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