Jimmy Ballard

[97speedster]

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[97speedster]

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[dodger]

The pictures of Ballard demonstrating bending elbows cannot be intended to advocate a severely bent arm all the way to the top.

I find that when I set up with level shoulders and a bent left arm, the arm straightens during the backswing. If my right shoulder raises with the left moving back level, the left elbow is not bending, but it does point down. Curtis is always an interesting Ballard example because his head moves rightward in the backswing more than any of Ballard's other pro students. He also tended to keep the right shoulder too level and around in the backswing, particularly in the 90's when his play fell off. Curtis could come into impact really under with the club, recall his 1995 Ryder cup play with thin pushes and no compression on his irons the last hole.

[Puttersaurus Rex]

I have been practicing the last few months, and finally got some time on the course. It was nice to see improvements from what I have been reading here, and practicing. The Ballard method is helpful to me because it is simplified, and repeatable. It is also less frustrating, because I can evaluate what is going wrong, and make small tweaks to get back on track. I just had one blow up hole on 9 holes, and the rest were collectively better than usual.

 

Last year was a frustrating year for my golf game, and this journey has been a step in the right direction. Thanks again for all of the great posts!

[Ayersjj]

> @97speedster said:

> If I was going to emulate a right arm position at the top it would be Ben Hogan, he kept great width while maintaining his connection and got his right arm into a perfect 90 degree angle with the right elbow pointed down.

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Hard to keep toe down @ top like Hogan unless you consciously make right wrist flat. A more upright swing like Rocco naturally hangs down And easier to apply. I believe JB told me a true square position at top is toe down where most woukd say thats open. Pffffft

 

 

 

 

 

[Ayersjj]

> @97speedster said:

> > @Ayersjj said:

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> > JB folding elbows down.

> > Thoughts?

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> Jimmy demonstrating or talking about something without a club in his hand doesn’t mean that is the position he wants you in. Usually you will over do something when trying to explain a point, especially when you don’t have a club in your hand. JB himself told me that bending the left arm too much is a form of disconnection. Find me a current top 100 player in the world who is that narrow or has a collapsed left arm? You can’t hit anything hard with a left arm too bent, you need width and that’s why the long hitters maintain and have it.

 

Agreed! I have noticed over the years JB would exaggerate a look to make a point like rolling the arms in the backswing.

 

In the New Orleans Summit, JB made it crystal clear he loves Doug Sanders swing. The fact that he says its simple triangle to triangle “perfect” and his fav model swig bc its simple.

 

 

 

 

 

[JDFish]

> @97speedster said:

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> Here is Curtis in his prime.... soft and connected left arm at the top. Connected with width at the top.

 

Love this visual of his upper body coil behind the ball. I've been struggling with my takeaway - got to technical and seeing this allowed me to incorporate it somewhat to be less restrictive and let the upper body move behind the ball but into the right leg without swaying. Looking forward to playing tomorrow.

And thanks for the medicine ball recommendation! I didn't have any training aids before this thread and now, with the connector, glove, true pendulum motion I shouldn't have any excuses :)

[adamnapes]

So, today was the first day it’s been above 50*, sun shining and not a lot of wind. I was able to hit about 90 balls and have a couple key observations or take aways for MY swing.

Kind of like checkpoints, but with some room for error because I feel whenever I get overly technical, tension sets in and from what I’m gathering with this swing and probably all golf swings in general is tension is a killer.

 

Number 1, on set-up, soft arms and slightly bent right arm is key. This really helps with number 2 and that is the folding of the right elbow while also keeping/maintaining some softness in that left arm. Anytime I let or made the left arm go rigid, I got in trouble. Also, I’ve had an extremely flat backswing for years and this really helps me get the club more vertical. It’s funny because this new position feels weak and sometimes unstable probably because it’s new, but that, combined with a full coil behind the ball, gets me up into a strong position to attack the target.

 

Number 3 is the downswing. I really don’t think about weight transfer/lower body movement, it just happens for me. I’m hoping it stays this way and continues to happen on its own because I know that is a key. Basically my only major downswing thought is a feel thing and that’s feel like I’m almost coming over the top with a level right shoulder. Maybe it’s best described as getting on top of the ball, I don’t know, but my old swing was so far in to out, right shoulder to the ball, it makes this right shoulder level thing feel wild. It is amazing how much speed and effortless force it provides. I have to trust it, and I hit a few pulls because I let my hands get crazy, but even those probably didn’t penalize me much. I think the pulls also had to do with getting my weight into the heal quick instead of in the toe and down the target line though.

 

The last checkpoint is almost simultaneous with the downswing and very much related. Let my head release!!! This is where everything made sense. Again, it feels somewhat unstable and not real powerful at first, like I’m coming out of the shot but as long as I stay level with that shoulder, the compression and distances say otherwise. Whenever I hung back a bit or drop the right shoulder, I found myself hitting some blocks and a couple a bit fat as well. I hit a comically bad drive, dead blocked way OB right and knew instantly what I did and how to fix it.

 

As soon as I let the body work, and not try to hit static points it was like a huge spot light turn on. I feel good, the best I have in a long time.

 

One thing to note, short shots, touch shots are going to take some time. I’m kind of lost on these, any pointers would be great.

 

That was a long read!

 

[97speedster]

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[adamnapes]

So what is the general consensus about hitting blocks, mostly with the driver?

 

I was able to get out for the first round of the year today. Cold mid 40s and some rough wind on a couple holes, but overall a decent round, especially with the swing tweeks. I didn’t want to swamp myself with swing thoughts during actual play, but ended up with a couple drivers missing right. Not way right as I finished the day with the same ball I started with, but more like a push fade that ended up in the right rough. But because my old miss was an overcooked hook, I still tend to aim right side fairway which probably didn’t help. I don’t think I was getting steep, whenever I hit 3w or long iron I didn’t have the ball flight issue. I’m thinking it was open club face.

 

Any good feels or thoughts to work on from the top of the backswing?

 

 

 

[adamnapes]

> @97speedster said:

> > @adamnapes said:

> > I think the pulls also had to do with getting my weight into the heal quick instead of in the toe and down the target line though.

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> > One thing to note, short shots, touch shots are going to take some time. I’m kind of lost on these, any pointers would be great.

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> You are 100% right, it's very important to get going to the left toe on the downswing and into the finish. Going to the left heel is a swing killer; there is a saying "if you spin, you will never win!

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> The short game is very easy, just don't get too narrow; I actually chip, pitch and hit bunker shots all from a stance width of 17" and don't get narrower than that EVER. The only thing I do is move the ball from my left heel to middle of my stance depending on the shot, but never further back than middle.... bunker shots are off my left heel or big toe, chip shots are middle and pitches vary between that. I use the YipDoc everyday I practice my short game; it takes the hands and small muscles out of it completely and helps me use the big muscles to control the short game; grooves exactly how Adam Scott, Jason Day, Steve Stricker etc. hit these shots, all use very little hands and wrists around the green.

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I read this in the parking lot before the round started while waiting out the frost delay. It helped tremendously, along with applying the underhand to the hole swing thought. Had a very solid short game day, several good/great up and downs without much practice. Biggest thing was making sure i release, even on short pitches and chips. In fact, my main swing thought of the day, other than off the tee was, “RELEASE” out loud, in my head of course.....

[97speedster]

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[Ayersjj]

Keeping center moving after the initial kick of right knee towards ball are my thoughts

 

[adamnapes]

Photos like that are what really confuse me about certain golf swings. To me, that right shoulder looks completely “down” at the ball, instead of moving level and replacing where the left was.

[97speedster]

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[Ayersjj]

 

Just bf his 2nd Open win

[Ayersjj]

Rt shoulder thru ball is lower because of slight tilt and left shoulder working up. But the key is to feel over the top or rt shoulder leve or higher so club doesnt drop and flip.

 

Curtis and Hogan seem very similar to me! The feel JB wanted Curtis to feel was over the top even tho pic looks like rt shoulder is lower.

 

 

[Ayersjj]

Curtis full release of body center no block imo

 

[97speedster]

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[Ayersjj]

 

[golfer07840]

> @dodger said:

> The pictures of Ballard demonstrating bending elbows cannot be intended to advocate a severely bent arm all the way to the top.

> I find that when I set up with level shoulders and a bent left arm, the arm straightens during the backswing. If my right shoulder raises with the left moving back level, the left elbow is not bending, but it does point down. Curtis is always an interesting Ballard example because his head moves rightward in the backswing more than any of Ballard's other pro students. He also tended to keep the right shoulder too level and around in the backswing, particularly in the 90's when his play fell off. Curtis could come into impact really under with the club, recall his 1995 Ryder cup play with thin pushes and no compression on his irons the last hole.

 

You can blame Leadbetter for that. Curtis wasn't with Jimmy past 1990 (maybe 1991?) so that swing in 1995, wasn't really a Ballard swing.

[dodger]

Actually, I blame Curtis for it, it is his swing. No idea what Leadbetter told him, probably not too far off from Ballard, considering his book has a lot of Ballard ideas in it. My point was not to focus on an instructor, but Curtis's head and shoulder movement on the backswing. I find it different than any of Ballard's other tour players other than maybe Sandy Lyle, who also moved the head back and came into it too in to out. Look at Sutton in the 1983 swing photos, head does not drift back with a flat right shoulder, the right shoulder moves up. If the coil takes place with right shoulder up and left level, the head does not shift way off the ball. Strange always had this "look" to his swing.

[Ayersjj]

> @dodger said:

> Actually, I blame Curtis for it, it is his swing. No idea what Leadbetter told him, probably not too far off from Ballard, considering his book has a lot of Ballard ideas in it. My point was not to focus on an instructor, but Curtis's head and shoulder movement on the backswing. I find it different than any of Ballard's other tour players other than maybe Sandy Lyle, who also moved the head back and came into it too in to out. Look at Sutton in the 1983 swing photos, head does not drift back with a flat right shoulder, the right shoulder moves up. If the coil takes place with right shoulder up and left level, the head does not shift way off the ball. Strange always had this "look" to his swing.

 

@ the same time JB told me Sutton struggled with a reverse pivot and then blocks going thru. I think JB likes the movement but in balance. He always told me “all it is balance Jeff, ur balanced 6 inches behind the ball and 6” infront of the ball. My calculations =1 foot of movement.

 

 

[Ayersjj]

> @adamnapes said:

> Photos like that are what really confuse me about certain golf swings. To me, that right shoulder looks completely “down” at the ball, instead of moving level and replacing where the left was.

 

JB uses Trevino as example of a square clubface hip high to hip high in his book. If u think Curtis rt shoulder is down check out Merry Mex.

 

In backswing , rt shoulder works up as lft works level. The reverse happens thru shot. That is why the split hands drill is so important to feel the outter force and not drop.

 

 

 

[97speedster]

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[torbill]

I think it is bad practice to hit a ball into a bunch of parked cars. ;-)

 

Other than that, what strikes me is the way that the triangle seems perfectly formed, centered on his body - at least from this angle. As JB says, swings may look different but there are certain common denominators in all great ball strikers.

[Ayersjj]

The only way the left shoulder can work perfectly level to the ground on backswing is to somehow dislocate the joint. I believe level both back and thru is level to the plane. The feeling Is level on the back and high on thru swing. But the tilt at address sets levels or being measured to ball and they are maintained. We are getting too technical and talkn about a feel. Curtis actually “felt” they rotated level, but the photos show diff in respect to ground, but level to plane.

 

In my opinion

 

 

[dodger]

When my right shoulder goes up with the left moving level, the right side extends. It keeps the shoulders up. When I feel my shoulders and head drop, I hook, block or chunk. Using the connector, my right side stays nice and high thru the ball.

[Ayersjj]

> @dodger said:

> When my right shoulder goes up with the left moving level, the right side extends. It keeps the shoulders up. When I feel my shoulders and head drop, I hook, block or chunk. Using the connector, my right side stays nice and high thru

 

Chi Chi is about as high right side thru the shot that is humanly possible imo

 

 

 

[dodger]

I saw Chi Chi play in early 1990's on senior tour. Not a swing anyone would teach but really impressive how he could drive the ball as physically small as he is.