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Couple of observations as I work on this swing....

....can start down with the arms, if a good turn is made and shoulder moved up...and left up for a mili second as arms get going.

......the wider stance combined with a coil into up the rear leg naturally gives "ground force" , especially if front hip lower from knee getting pointed at least at the ball if not behind it

 

.....my feels I guess lol

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> @Ayersjj said:

> I think Speeder is right distinguishing feels vs fundamental. Sutton recently gave golfchannel his take on why he’s struggling on the comeback trail. https://www.golfchannel.com/video/hal-sutton-swing-changes-comeback-pga-tour-champions

>

> But this is a feel not a fundamental. In the young Sutton downswing I would bet this dropping of arms was far from his thoughts and feels.

>

> qm4a54hraz2x.jpeg

>

>

> > @Silveird said:

> > > @97speedster said:

> > >

> > > > @Silveird said:

> > > >

> > > > @97speedster First off thank you so much for the wealth of information you have provided on this thread. I actually jumped on to ask the same question as DonRSD. An instructor recently turned me onto Ballard's teachings. It's still early--I'm just a few weeks in--but I'm already starting to see the light. However the one thing I still can't get my head around is how to initiate the downswing. After watching several of Ballard's videos on youtube I find myself starting my downswing by pushing off my right foot.

> > > >

> > > > Is this correct, or am I missing an in-between step? I understand that for you the push-off 'just happens' but does it just happen at the top of the downswing or at some point after the club starts to fall? And if it happens afterwards, what part of your body do you use to initiate your downswing?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks again!

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don't want to screw you up by sharing my "feels" with you because it can be deceptive. I generally have a steeper downswing so I try to start my downswing with my arms while my shoulders stay closed as the arms initiate the downswing, but again this is just a feel for MY game which keeps me from opening my shoulders too soon on the downswing. Ideally, the downswing starts from the ground up and not with the upper body.

> > >

> >

> > Thanks. I should have known there is no cut and dried answer, otherwise I would have found it already!

> >

> > I will keep tinkering with Ballard's fundamentals and fill in the gaps using my own experience. For what it's worth, I also struggle with opening my shoulders too soon. I played golf for a long time before taking formal lessons and was poisoned by the belief that creating lag meant getting my shoulders ahead of my arms. Decades later that thought is still burned into the recesses of my brain. Funny game this is.

>

 

I guess that's the million dollar question, then. How do I get the arms to drop without trying? In other words, if dropping the arms is incidental to some core movement, what is that core movement? Excuse me while I make 3/4 swings that stop just short of my office ceiling. I'm sure I will figure this out eventually :)

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Gentlemen......I almost did it today. I almost broke my golf club over my knee ala Bo Jackson. Lord knows how frustrated I am these days.

I recently have gone full Ballard and have no consistency....NONE!!!. I now have a 2 way miss and even had 6 hosel rockets in my last 2 rounds. Trying to keep the right shoulder high, I feel like my right elbow is collapsing and I have no width to my swing.

Cant feel my legs at all when I coil.......because if I coil into the inside of the fight leg, I feel like I am swaying and can't get back to the ball and thru it.

Sure there are some shots that look nice, but they are few and far between.

 

Just don't know where I am going wrong and nothing seems to work.

 

My right shoulder high means I feel my arms lifting and have lost some distance on all of my clubs by being VERY arm dependent.

 

Just dont know what to do. I know sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward with this game.....but I am frustrated to no end.......RAWR!!!!

All I want is some consistency and be able to hit fairways. As it is now, lord knows what direction the ball is going (snipe hook left or a big slice that starts straight) and I have to club up for everything higher than a 6 iron. Funny thing is my 6 iron can go 175-180 carry, but my 2 hybrid only goes 200 and my driver 230. It fdoesnt add up.

My short game under 125) is decent. PW goes 125 and 54 100......consistency is nice there.....but again, I think that's because of my "arm swing" and not a full swing like the higher clubs I can have a decent game there.

 

ANY HELP for a struggling golfer would be appreciated. If I had hair I would rip the mofo out in golf frustration!!!!

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JB would always emphasis to me that the shoulders on plane are the key. Most people move the right shoulder too flat and sway. If you are loading properly the sequence in transition will get the club to fall in. In his book he makes it clear when we start focusing on hands and arms initiators we get in trouble.

 

> @Silveird said:

> > @Ayersjj said:

> > I think Speeder is right distinguishing feels vs fundamental. Sutton recently gave golfchannel his take on why he’s struggling on the comeback trail. https://www.golfchannel.com/video/hal-sutton-swing-changes-comeback-pga-tour-champions

> >

> > But this is a feel not a fundamental. In the young Sutton downswing I would bet this dropping of arms was far from his thoughts and feels.

> >

> > qm4a54hraz2x.jpeg

> >

> >

> > > @Silveird said:

> > > > @97speedster said:

> > > >

> > > > > @Silveird said:

> > > > >

> > > > > @97speedster First off thank you so much for the wealth of information you have provided on this thread. I actually jumped on to ask the same question as DonRSD. An instructor recently turned me onto Ballard's teachings. It's still early--I'm just a few weeks in--but I'm already starting to see the light. However the one thing I still can't get my head around is how to initiate the downswing. After watching several of Ballard's videos on youtube I find myself starting my downswing by pushing off my right foot.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is this correct, or am I missing an in-between step? I understand that for you the push-off 'just happens' but does it just happen at the top of the downswing or at some point after the club starts to fall? And if it happens afterwards, what part of your body do you use to initiate your downswing?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks again!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't want to screw you up by sharing my "feels" with you because it can be deceptive. I generally have a steeper downswing so I try to start my downswing with my arms while my shoulders stay closed as the arms initiate the downswing, but again this is just a feel for MY game which keeps me from opening my shoulders too soon on the downswing. Ideally, the downswing starts from the ground up and not with the upper body.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thanks. I should have known there is no cut and dried answer, otherwise I would have found it already!

> > >

> > > I will keep tinkering with Ballard's fundamentals and fill in the gaps using my own experience. For what it's worth, I also struggle with opening my shoulders too soon. I played golf for a long time before taking formal lessons and was poisoned by the belief that creating lag meant getting my shoulders ahead of my arms. Decades later that thought is still burned into the recesses of my brain. Funny game this is.

> >

>

> I guess that's the million dollar question, then. How do I get the arms to drop without trying? In other words, if dropping the arms is incidental to some core movement, what is that core movement? Excuse me while I make 3/4 swings that stop just short of my office ceiling. I'm sure I will figure this out eventually :)

 

 

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Don, I feel ur pain and can totally relate. The thing that gets me bak on track is working the shoulders with softer arms. Usually when things go haywire it has snowballed to a slide into right and the arm “tension” is 10 of 10. I basically squelch any athletic motion. These guys on tour have a hellofalot more pressure, but I remember JB writing Sutton he wint be able to swing well under pressure until he lessens the tension in arms. This as a result helped him focus on coiling shoulders. He then proceeded to win PGA @Riviera > @DonRSD said:

> Gentlemen......I almost did it today. I almost broke my golf club over my knee ala Bo Jackson. Lord knows how frustrated I am these days.

> I recently have gone full Ballard and have no consistency....NONE!!!. I now have a 2 way miss and even had 6 hosel rockets in my last 2 rounds. Trying to keep the right shoulder high, I feel like my right elbow is collapsing and I have no width to my swing.

> Cant feel my legs at all when I coil.......because if I coil into the inside of the fight leg, I feel like I am swaying and can't get back to the ball and thru it.

> Sure there are some shots that look nice, but they are few and far between.

>

> Just don't know where I am going wrong and nothing seems to work.

>

> My right shoulder high means I feel my arms lifting and have lost some distance on all of my clubs by being VERY arm dependent.

>

> Just dont know what to do. I know sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward with this game.....but I am frustrated to no end.......RAWR!!!!

> All I want is some consistency and be able to hit fairways. As it is now, lord knows what direction the ball is going (snipe hook left or a big slice that starts straight) and I have to club up for everything higher than a 6 iron. Funny thing is my 6 iron can go 175-180 carry, but my 2 hybrid only goes 200 and my driver 230. It fdoesnt add up.

> My short game under 125) is decent. PW goes 125 and 54 100......consistency is nice there.....but again, I think that's because of my "arm swing" and not a full swing like the higher clubs I can have a decent game there.

>

> ANY HELP for a struggling golfer would be appreciated. If I had hair I would rip the **** out in golf frustration!!!!

 

 

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> @Ayersjj said:

> Don, I feel ur pain and can totally relate. The thing that gets me bak on track is working the shoulders with softer arms. Usually when things go haywire it has snowballed to a slide into right and the arm “tension” is 10 of 10. I basically squelch any athletic motion. These guys on tour have a hellofalot more pressure, but I remember JB writing Sutton he wint be able to swing well under pressure until he lessens the tension in arms. This as a result helped him focus on coiling shoulders. He then proceeded to win PGA @Riviera > @DonRSD said:

> > Gentlemen......I almost did it today. I almost broke my golf club over my knee ala Bo Jackson. Lord knows how frustrated I am these days.

> > I recently have gone full Ballard and have no consistency....NONE!!!. I now have a 2 way miss and even had 6 hosel rockets in my last 2 rounds. Trying to keep the right shoulder high, I feel like my right elbow is collapsing and I have no width to my swing.

> > Cant feel my legs at all when I coil.......because if I coil into the inside of the fight leg, I feel like I am swaying and can't get back to the ball and thru it.

> > Sure there are some shots that look nice, but they are few and far between.

> >

> > Just don't know where I am going wrong and nothing seems to work.

> >

> > My right shoulder high means I feel my arms lifting and have lost some distance on all of my clubs by being VERY arm dependent.

> >

> > Just dont know what to do. I know sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward with this game.....but I am frustrated to no end.......RAWR!!!!

> > All I want is some consistency and be able to hit fairways. As it is now, lord knows what direction the ball is going (snipe hook left or a big slice that starts straight) and I have to club up for everything higher than a 6 iron. Funny thing is my 6 iron can go 175-180 carry, but my 2 hybrid only goes 200 and my driver 230. It fdoesnt add up.

> > My short game under 125) is decent. PW goes 125 and 54 100......consistency is nice there.....but again, I think that's because of my "arm swing" and not a full swing like the higher clubs I can have a decent game there.

> >

> > ANY HELP for a struggling golfer would be appreciated. If I had hair I would rip the **** out in golf frustration!!!!

>

>

I added a thought from a.m.g., on how high level players keep a 90 degree angle of right arm to chest. Easy to do with dons shorter clubs, but with longer clubs, it easy to loose that angle, even limit a good turn, club gets stuck behind the body resulting in all kinds of described problems.

Work on retention of that angle

 

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Don - I am not a Ballard expert so I can only speak about what I know when golf gets frustrating, when it seems all the hard work is not producing the results we want or expect.

 

When things go haywire I go back to the Fundamentals. I have started at the beginning of this thread and am reading my way through it. I have read quite a bit about going back to the fundamentals to work out some of the issues that arise when playing this crazy game. Fundamentals are key. Never overdo something in search of the elusive 300 yard drive or holing out from 125 yards every time.

 

I don't know how much you practice, how much you practice with the Driver, the Fairway Metals, the Hybrids or the Long Irons. Over the years I have not paid as much attention to the longer clubs as I should have, it's only in the last 6 months that I have started to focus more on those clubs. The more I practice the better I have gotten, the more proficient I get.

 

I don't know what your set make up is, the longest iron I carry is a 5 iron, then I go to a 3 & 4 Hybrid, 5 Wood, Driver. At 57 and bad back I no longer try to hit a 3 or 4 iron, although I used to love to hit the 4 iron.

 

I guess what I am saying is that golf can be frustrating. That sometimes you take 2 steps forward and 2 steps back. keep at it. You have a passion for this game that I have seen when reading in your posts. I have seen some of the advice Speedster, AyersJJ, Torbill and others have given us all in this thread. There is an answer, there always is. Film your swing when your hitting it good and when you're striking it bad. Compare the difference in the swings.

 

Keep at it, it will click. And I am sure someone will be along to help shortly. Stay positive. Trust me, breaking clubs gets expensive after awhile. I know

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Tiger struggled getting stuck. IMO when u start trying to manufacture something other than a good load and transition with soft arms the rabbit will run u thru the woods. There are no secrets with Ballard. Plain and simple load of big muscles (shoulder lats into the brace of right leg and fire right knee towards ball left elbow down covering) Sure we want to feel right side high so the club doesnt get stuck. One cannot create a position that happens naturally if you are connected and loaded properly. Cam Newton is a great example. He’s uses the brace of the right leg when playing well. He got armsy this year and hurt his shoulder.

 

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Seems like alot of teachers are teaching dropping arms these days. Malaska speaks like it was a move that revolutionized his game. I think he has some positions that are correct but trying to do it with the arms will create problems if an individual becomes hands and arms focused.

 

Goto 10:00 mark to bypass his intro. Malaska I think is correct but is focused on hands and arms to doit = trouble. If u look at Malaska swing earlier in vid he doesnt load imo therefore hes got to doit it with arms and hands.

 

 

 

 

> @97speedster said:

> Getting stuck is just swinging under the plane, getting stuck has never been an issue with me. Guys like Tiger who fight getting stuck should never try to keep their back to the target longer during the transition. Like I said, we all have our cancer and Tigers cancer is he gets his hips spinning too fast and then gets stuck.

 

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Tiger talkn feels and arms dropping first w Butch. I agree DJ, some things we do drill wise help us “feel “ where we need to be. I just think we get so focused on small muscle moves we can lose motion and athleticism. Abrams for example.

 

5:00 min mark

 

> @97speedster said:

> Getting stuck is just swinging under the plane, getting stuck has never been an issue with me. Guys like Tiger who fight getting stuck should never try to keep their back to the target longer during the transition. Like I said, we all have our cancer and Tigers cancer is he gets his hips spinning too fast and then gets stuck.

 

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> @97speedster said:

> > @DonRSD said:

> > Gentlemen......I almost did it today. I almost broke my golf club over my knee ala Bo Jackson. Lord knows how frustrated I am these days.

> > I recently have gone full Ballard and have no consistency....NONE!!!. I now have a 2 way miss and even had 6 hosel rockets in my last 2 rounds. Trying to keep the right shoulder high, I feel like my right elbow is collapsing and I have no width to my swing.

> > Cant feel my legs at all when I coil.......because if I coil into the inside of the fight leg, I feel like I am swaying and can't get back to the ball and thru it.

> > Sure there are some shots that look nice, but they are few and far between.

> >

> > Just don't know where I am going wrong and nothing seems to work.

> >

> > My right shoulder high means I feel my arms lifting and have lost some distance on all of my clubs by being VERY arm dependent.

> >

> > Just dont know what to do. I know sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward with this game.....but I am frustrated to no end.......RAWR!!!!

> > All I want is some consistency and be able to hit fairways. As it is now, lord knows what direction the ball is going (snipe hook left or a big slice that starts straight) and I have to club up for everything higher than a 6 iron. Funny thing is my 6 iron can go 175-180 carry, but my 2 hybrid only goes 200 and my driver 230. It doesn't add up.

> > My short game under 125) is decent. PW goes 125 and 54 100......consistency is nice there.....but again, I think that's because of my "arm swing" and not a full swing like the higher clubs I can have a decent game there.

> >

> > ANY HELP for a struggling golfer would be appreciated. If I had hair I would rip the **** out in golf frustration!!!!

>

> You're wiping it! Hitting from the top with the longer swings and your sequencing is probably all screwed up.... it happens, you just need to get back on track. First make sure your fundamentals are good; grip, stance, posture, ball position and alignment. Then you need to get your sequencing and tempo back.... I've never seen you swing, so there are many other factors that can be playing into this, but one of my favorite training aids is this: https://www.golftrainingaids.com/products/right-angle-2 .... I never set on anything but "half", even when I am hitting a driver. It really helps me keep my width, not get too long with my arms, and it increases my shoulder turn due to less arm swing. When I use it my swing feels short, compact and on plane.... it also helps me with my sequencing because of the width which makes my downswing much more shallow and on plane. For me, using this training aid really helps me keep my right side higher on the downswing, but like I said, never set it on anything but "Half" and there is a clicker on it that I also always disable which you will know about once you see it.

 

 

 

**Here are some videos of my swing over the last month or 2. Need to get my golf buddies to take more videos, but hopefully someone can help! I feel super steep backswing and downswing.**

 

 

 

 

 

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Don, imo looks like ur left shoulder is higher than right in first part of bqbhhn93w6xc.png

cgp8cdp29w0r.png

backswing. This causes to flat back then steep on downswing. I would try coiling right shoulder more up in backswing. Might make that downswing feel less steep. That would b a backswing thought. Downswing I would try to get the left knee flex back to catch the weight instead of spin out.

 

Frankly, I dont think ur as far off as u feel from some really good golf. >

 

 

 

JB always told me Sutton use to feel the heel of the club moved first in backswing never the toe and loved Nick Prices backswing

 

 

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@97speedster, one thing I have not seen discussed on this forum or youtube videos is Ballard's recommendation for grip size. I understand the overall principle of taking movement out of the swing, anchoring with the elbow, and powering withe big muscles. And I have heard Ballard suggest holding the grip more in the palms. All of that makes me think that Ballard would champion a larger than normal grip size. Then again I don't want to assume, especially because when talking about grip size you have other considerations coming into play like swingweight and ability to _feel_ the clubhead. Do you happen to know his thoughts in this area?

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> @97speedster said:

> > @DonRSD said:

> >

> > **Here are some videos of my swing over the last month or 2. Need to get my golf buddies to take more videos, but hopefully someone can help! I feel super steep backswing and downswing.**

> >

>

> Don, JJ is right, you're not as far off as you think and most of your issues are coming from before you even take the club back. Let me expand on a few things that JJ mentioned....

>

> Your set-up is causing you to go around going back and over the top (very steep coming down), you also have zero width at the top which also make it almost impossible to be nothing but steep coming down.

>

> csdr6w28jnvx.jpg

>

> jfkzsfs9pkju.jpg

>

> Both of these above you can see from behind how much your right arm is under your left at address, once you get there you are going to turn too flat with your shoulders and around going back which in turn leads to a steep downswing.

>

> ysfzmdjuxj75.jpg

>

> 8ldimds44xbf.jpg

>

>

> You see how over the top and steep these two swings are and how much that pulls your shoulders open setting you up for a classic wipe through impact.... your chest and shoulders are pointed way left at impact.

>

> 11zeu9bu1h9l.jpg

>

> You would be better off having this arm position at your set-up position and then have your right arm under your left at impact.... you do the reverse, but it's mainly caused my how you set-up before you even take the club back.

>

> You need to get your set-up more level, especially with your shoulders and your arms, and then you need to get the right shoulder working up (not around) and get more width at the top in your right arm, you are way over connected and jammed at the top.

>

> doawk0qn29gw.jpg

>

> 678linaocoiy.jpg

>

> No room from there to do anything but come in to the ball steep, especially when you are set-up to swing around from the start. This might sound like a lot to work on, but most of your issues are caused by a poor set-up and are fundamentals.... once you get in the right position from the start, the rest will come easy. You also have the ball to far back which makes you hang back on your right side and stand up at impact. If you get the ball more forward in your stance you get to your left side better instead of hanging back and trying to help the ball up.

>

> jodsqvrdqm4h.jpg

>

> je0x64aj6qry.jpg

>

> m53aqwca5fuh.jpg

>

> You see how much more width and room I have at the top which makes it a lot easier to shallow the club out on the downswing...

>

> qcgp8nt3oe8q.png

>

> c3jt11el0r7y.png

>

> You see where your club shaft is in that position on the downswing (very steep)...

>

> c1u2wewrcvic.jpg

>

> For your set-up, you can see how much more level my shoulders are, also in the behind view you can see how level my arms are where my right arm blocks the view of my left versus yours where you can see almost your entire left arm from the behind view.

>

> noa1nlbgumpi.png

>

> empaxg2ncnmp.png

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Lots to speak on here. @Ayersjj and @97speedster thank you for the advice.

The main thing that hit home was being over connected and jammed at the top. It gets frustrating when the issues are there but I can't fix it. When timing is on, I can get down to a 85.....but I always tell my golf buddies "Im sick of relying on timing and just want a fluid swing that produces consistent results".

 

You guys are a great deal of wealth and helpfulness to us fellow JB'ers. Words cant express MY gratitude for you guys and the over the top help you've provided.

As down as I wa yesterday with about to break the clubs, you guys provided some relief that there IS light at the end of this dark tunnel. Good to know Im not far away, even though it feels like I am miles away.

 

Blown away at the lessons you guys just gave. Hopefully if anyone else is suffering with some issues I have (inconsistent ball flight, inconsistent resets, steep downswing, etc) can refer to the posts above for help.

 

 

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I had an Instructor many years ago who wanted me to have the right arm below the left and tucked tight against my rib cage at address. Always felt constricted to me but I learned to play with it. Doing this also made my right shoulder low like we see in Don's setup.

 

The two pictures that DJ posted should help quite a few people with achieving a proper setup. It is certainly helping me as I study the thread and the great advice that is being shared.

 

In reading through the thread I caught that this would be a change I would gladly make.

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Speedster, can you go a bit more in-depth as to what you mean by the term “over-connected” (you’ve used the term several times in the last few pages of this thread)? As this is the master fundamental of the Ballard move, and hence, subject to possible excess by overeager students, a bit of clarification from a really good player and JB disciple could prove valuable in helping the rest of “connect” correctly and to the correct extent.

 

Again, thanks for your insights on this thread...IMHO, maybe the best golf forum thread I’ve ever read/participated in....let’s keep it going!

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Don, I don’t want to get in the way of the other comments, but what I am seeing that may not have been stated, specifically, is the extension of your arms at address. Ballard wants the elbows basically on the body and you are reaching quite a lot from what I can tell. Look at Speedster, from the back, no reaching at all. He is taller and with a different body type, but you are too far from the ball. in my opinion.

 

Also, as Speedster notes, his shoulders are more level than yours, when viewed straight on. Your right shoulder is dropped because your spine and head are noticeably tipped away from the target. Better to play the ball farther forward and get your spine and head more plumb. As it is, this is an angle, and Ballard does not prefer angles.

 

Setup can solve a number of things for free that we presume are in the swing. It’s hard to focus on this static stuff when we are really just wanting to bash that little white ball, but it is crucial to everything that follows. Every little detail in the setup is important.

 

Golf is a hard game. We all go through this sort of discouragement. The old saw is true: Success is picking ourselves up one more time than we are knocked down. Go get ‘em!! ;-)

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Don, anytime man. Glad its helpful. My biggest flaw is what u described about not feeling the legs (sliding bak) then steep. My cure is to coil the shoulders (properly on plane) w soft arms to inside set of right leg. If I dont do that its an un athletic lift with arms and no power or accuracy 2 way miss awful. If I do this right I can shoot par, If I do it wrong +80.

Never give it up bc ur golfing buds will watch the improvements and not be able to grasp without digging it outta the dirt. No short cuts.

 

This is me 2011 doing my favorite drill of JB to feel the shoulder plane. Crucial drill for me. (See picture)g2xwndr46zl0.jpeg

 

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>

> **Here are some videos of my swing over the last month or 2. Need to get my golf buddies to take more videos, but hopefully someone can help! I feel super steep backswing and downswing.**

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Don, a drill that I got from a Ballard teaching pro really helped the ball position issue Speedster and JJ spoke of, and really helped me power my body thru the ball better. Put a ball in normal ball position w/ a 5 or 6 iron, then tee a ball (as if on a par 3) up off of your left big toe (for righty's) ahead of the “normally” positioned ball....remove the original ball, set up square as normal to the ball no longer there (so you don’t cheat the drill) and swing. Really great to help you power thru the shot w/ your trail side...done correctly, you feel your right hip/side and arm arriving to impact nearly simultaneously. Ballflight will be very high and somewhat left; the better you get at getting your right side thru the shot, the less leftwards your shots will travel.

 

Really great drill to train a fwd ball position and the body thru the shot, which also helps avoiding the club going past your body too soon via a body “stall”.

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