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> @torbill said:

> ~~~~> @Tazz4629 said:

> > > @97speedster said:

> > > @Tazz4629 golf is hard no matter what approach you take with the game.

> >

> > Yes it is my friend.

> >

> > Part of the games allure which is why even the greatest in the game never stop learning, never stop practicing, never stop trying to improve.

>

> Are you commenting on the greatest players, or yourself, or all of the above?

>

 

All of the above.

 

Whether Amateur or Professional we all strive to keep learning, keep improving in life as well as in golf

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> @Ayersjj said:

> @DonRSD Bill Abrams has it totally collapsed but my best friend from college golf is scratch and plays exactly like Abrams collapsed arms. So when a guy beats everybody with collapsed arms maybe the vogue “width” will be a dinosaur.

>

> l8bll92o9zcc.jpeg

>

>

 

I'm sure Abrams is a fine instructor and player but he looks like he has no athletic ability at all. He looks very stiff while demonstrating the swing.

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I've seen Bill on the range in FLA, and he is a very good ball striker and athletic. That ^^^ is a bit of an exaggeration to get the point home. he knows the ballard swing quite well and teaches it in his own style. the comment above is ludicrous.

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J Ballard works with Joe Durant one of the best ball strikers on Senior tour who has more tilt than Couples. There are Ballard fundamentals in both. Nobody’s perfect Ballard or whoever says you should do this ir that. Sutton imo is about the perfect Ballard as u can get posture w Word not allowed under and more erect.

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Parnevik worked with JB and was dead shut

Lyle was inside like Raymond Floyd

Walzel was narrow

Dawson was handsy

Durant reverse C

Alred was long armed

Rocco created angle

 

Nobodys perfect except software of Sutton, lol

 

 

 

> @97speedster said:

> @Ayersjj there is a BIG difference between FUNDAMENTALS and PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS; since when did spine tilt at impact become a fundamental? The GRIP is a fundamental and Freddie couldn’t be further away from the neutral grip Ballard wants.

 

 

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> @97speedster said:

> > @mocokid said:

> > I've seen Bill on the range in FLA, and he is a very good ball striker and athletic. That ^^^ is a bit of an exaggeration to get the point home. he knows the ballard swing quite well and teaches it in his own style. the comment above is ludicrous.

>

> A guys ability is NOT defined on a driving range, it’s defined on the golf course, especially when he’s playing under tournament conditions.

>

> There are many great range players that can’t play a lick on the golf course!

>

> https://ilpga.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/ilpga17/profile/wabrams1/tresults.htm

>

Not really fair at all, when the guy's a PGA club pro, spending most of time teaching. Bill is a very good Ballard teacher. And yes athletic and hits it well. No one is citing Jimmy's or Butch's recent playing record, LOLOL.

 

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> @Ayersjj said:

> Parnevik worked with JB and was dead shut

> Lyle was inside like Raymond Floyd

> Walzel was narrow

> Dawson was handsy

> Durant reverse C

> Alred was long armed

> Rocco created angle

>

> Nobodys perfect except software of Sutton, lol

>

>

>

>

> > @97speedster said:

> > @Ayersjj there is a BIG difference between FUNDAMENTALS and PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS; since when did spine tilt at impact become a fundamental? The GRIP is a fundamental and Freddie couldn’t be further away from the neutral grip Ballard wants.

>

>

 

Love that Sutton swing anatomy

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> @mocokid said:

> I've seen Bill on the range in FLA, and he is a very good ball striker and athletic. That ^^^ is a bit of an exaggeration to get the point home. he knows the ballard swing quite well and teaches it in his own style. the comment above is ludicrous.

 

If you can read you'd notice I said "I'm sure he's a fine instructor and player". But if I knew nothing of Ballard's swing and just saw an Abrams video, no way would I follow that guy. I agree he's overdoing the swing a bit but it just doesn't look natural. This is not a bash Abrams thread so let's get back to the Ballard swing. I apologize for bringing it up.

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> @97speedster said:

> > @mocokid said:

> > Not really fair at all, when the guy's a PGA club pro, spending most of time teaching. Bill is a very good Ballard teacher. And yes athletic and hits it well. No one is citing Jimmy's or Butch's recent playing record, LOLOL.

> >

> It’s completely fair, you said he was a great ball striker, his scores don’t dictate that. Jimmy played some good golf as a junior and as an assistant club pro when he was younger, Butch won the BC Open on the PGA Tour in 1968.

>

> You don’t have to be a great player to be a great teacher, but you DO have to have had the ability to shoot low scores at one time. For example, how is a 10 handicap going to help another 10 handicap become a scratch.

>

> I know a ton of guys that don’t play much golf anymore and they still go out there and shoot around par when I get them on the golf course. I played professionally for 11 years and took 8 years off where I played very occasionally (once or twice a year) I would get asked to play golf for business and I still never would shoot in the 80’s and once even shot 67 without touching a club for 6 months. A true player and ball striker is going to still be a player, and vice versa the wannabe player is going to rely more on timing and therefore probably won’t play well unless they are playing more often.

>

> I’m not trying to dig at Bill Abrams, I don’t even know the guy, I’m more trying to say that anybody can get the ball airborne and forward when the entire driving range is your target and look like a good ball striker, but what really matters and defines a good ball striker is when they do it to a target with a pin that has a 4.25” cup in the middle of it.

>

 

Actually, I said he was a very good ball striker, based on what I SAW on the range. That was my opinion. You pulled his most recent 2017 tourney results (ONLY) to indicate he is not vs. Jimmy's 1960s accomplishments and Butch's 1968 win, both 50+ years ago. Hardly fair, but it's your thread, so carry on.

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> @97speedster said:

> @mocokid I started this thread to help people, not argue.... my apologies. I shared all I have to offer so I’m going to move on to my @DJMorrisInc YouTube channel and share various videos there.

 

Don't leave! You're a beacon of hope for us fake golfers who want to be good lol.

Ignore the troll. Surprised we made it 40 pages before it arrived.

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No swing is ever 100% a certain way. Your thoughts & all DO help us all. You have JB elements with other elements. It IS fair to share all of that. Whatever one wants to make of it, that's on them.

 

Is anyone in here 100% JB?

 

Curtis, Gary Player, etc.....they won with JB ELEMENTS.....not 100% JB.

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The only person ? % is JBallard himself.

 

> @DonRSD said:

> No swing is ever 100% a certain way. Your thoughts & all DO help us all. You have JB elements with other elements. It IS fair to share all of that. Whatever one wants to make of it, that's on them.

>

> Is anyone in here 100% JB?

>

> Curtis, Gary Player, etc.....they won with JB ELEMENTS.....not 100% JB.

 

 

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> @97speedster said:

> @mocokid I started this thread to help people, not argue.... my apologies. I shared all I have to offer so I’m going to move on to my @DJMorrisInc YouTube channel and share various videos there. If someone’s interested in what I’ve learned over the years, not just from Ballard then they can see it there.

>

> I started this thread to share what I’ve learned from Ballard since 1995, but I’ve been fortunate to of also worked with Claude Harmon Sr in 1980-1982 (Butch’s dad who won the 1948 Masters), Butch Harmon, Shawn Callahan (assistant to Butch Harmon since 1997) and Paul Azinger. I like sharing my knowledge and if something doesn’t work for me then I don’t apply it, but I like to judge for myself through practice and ball flight NOT through methodology. I’m a player, not a teacher but I do know my own golf swing and what cause and effect the things I do have on ball flight.

>

> Seeing I started this thread on Ballard, it’s not fair to share my feels and variances because they might be confusing to some. Peace!!

 

Speedster, hmm... Now and then a pest comes along, and that just comes with the territory and is little more than a passing distraction. Your concern about not being 100% Ballard may be more of a concern to you than to us. You make it clear where you are differing from Ballard, so it all has value and isn’t confusing or unfair in the least. I do hope that you decide to continue on with this thread, but if not, I want you to know that I appreciate all of your interesting and valuable insights, and effort that you have put in to help out people like me. Thank you!

 

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> @torbill said:

> > @97speedster said:

> > @mocokid I started this thread to help people, not argue.... my apologies. I shared all I have to offer so I’m going to move on to my @DJMorrisInc YouTube channel and share various videos there. If someone’s interested in what I’ve learned over the years, not just from Ballard then they can see it there.

> >

> > I started this thread to share what I’ve learned from Ballard since 1995, but I’ve been fortunate to of also worked with Claude Harmon Sr in 1980-1982 (Butch’s dad who won the 1948 Masters), Butch Harmon, Shawn Callahan (assistant to Butch Harmon since 1997) and Paul Azinger. I like sharing my knowledge and if something doesn’t work for me then I don’t apply it, but I like to judge for myself through practice and ball flight NOT through methodology. I’m a player, not a teacher but I do know my own golf swing and what cause and effect the things I do have on ball flight.

> >

> > Seeing I started this thread on Ballard, it’s not fair to share my feels and variances because they might be confusing to some. Peace!!

>

> Speedster, hmm... Now and then a pest comes along, and that just comes with the territory and is little more than a passing distraction. Your concern about not being 100% Ballard may be more of a concern to you than to us. You make it clear where you are differing from Ballard, so it all has value and isn’t confusing or unfair in the least. I do hope that you decide to continue on with this thread, but if not, I want you to know that I appreciate all of your interesting and valuable insights, and effort that you have put in to help out people like me. Thank you!

>

 

Agreed. For what it's worth. I take lessons from a Ballard protege and I know that I am not doing 100% of what Ballard advocates - body type, physicality, etc. all play a part. But I know that doing mostly Ballard has had dramatically reduced my back pain. I recently tried the Right Angle 2 for the first time - it really helped me understand the right arm position/triangle formed in the backswing, the necessary turn, and easily gives me the feel for more width. And it is a different "feel" than Ballard advocates. But I was really striping it on the range combining all that I have learned in my swing transition with this. Can't wait to try it on the course!

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9.0 Fujikura Ventus Black TS 6S
Callaway XR 3+ wood Project X Hzrdus Handcrafted 6.0 LZ
Callaway XR 5 wood Project X Hzrdus Handcrafted 6.0 LZ
Taylormade GAPR 3 Mid KBS 80 S
Mizuno JPX 919 HMP Nippon N.S.Pro Modus3 Tour 120S - 4-A
Mizuno  54* Nippon N.S.Pro Modus3 Tour 120S
Odyssey Stroke Lab #1 33"

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> @97speedster said:

> @torbill Thanks. Maybe I’ll start a new thread and share more there, I just don’t think it’s fair to do it here. My golf game has evolved and improved drastically in the process. If I’m hitting it significantly farther and shooting lower scores, I must be doing something right, isn’t that the goal of this game ?

 

Yes, I agree, improvement is what it is all about. I was actually going to post something to Tass on this, when I got some time.

 

You would make a good engineer, Speedster (not meant as an insult, ha ha). Good engineers don’t give a rat’s *** about purity and theory. They want to find out what works. And go with it!! Old engineering maxim... In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren’t.

 

A new thread would be a possibility. What it could possibly invite, though, might be swing theory debates, which is tiresome and unproductive. Nobody here wants that. Here it is mostly birds of a feather who are attracted to the Ballard method and who appreciate not only your contributions to helping better understand and perform Ballard principles, but can see how different ideas that you are working on can meld with it. The title of the thread and the length of the thread pretty much waive off endless swing theory debates.

 

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