Jimmy Ballard

[Ayersjj]

@97speedster U and I already discussed width and *agree* when I sent the new video of Rocco. JB center drill and VHarness both require extension no collapse. The Bill Abrams bullsh*t was wrong u even said JB said it was BS.

 

 

 

Lets move on to better discussions than the RA2 imo. Like firing the right side properly on this thread bc thats what Ballard really is about. If ur not into firing anymore from the top going wide so beit, to each his own.

 

But if this thread isnt about Ballard here not sure whats the point. No hard feelings time to move on.

 

 

 

[97speedster]

Fair enough!

[garyt]

Man, you step away from this thread for a few minutes and you miss a lot

[garyt]

> @Ayersjj said:

> @97speedster U and I already discussed width and *agree* when I sent the new video of Rocco. JB center drill and VHarness both require extension no collapse. The Bill Abrams bullsh*t was wrong u even said JB said it was BS.

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What Bill Abrams stuff was wrong? I always thought he over collapsed the arms and doesn't look very athletic displaying the swing.

[Ayersjj]

Abrams initial videos didnt do justice to the soft arms It makes JB look like his theory was all about collapse which isnt what he teaches. Rocco had a soft left arm and right arm high away from body.

 

 

 

> @garyt said:

> > @Ayersjj said:

> > @97speedster U and I already discussed width and *agree* when I sent the new video of Rocco. JB center drill and VHarness both require extension no collapse. The Bill Abrams bullsh*t was wrong u even said JB said it was BS.

> >

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> What Bill Abrams stuff was wrong? I always thought he over collapsed the arms and doesn't look very athletic displaying the swing.

 

 

[dodger]

If you make the mistake I did that connection in any way involves the right arm, you are doomed unless you make a Kuchar like move in the downswing. Rocco is plenty wide with his right arm. It is possible to keep the left arm soft with a long right arm, that is a tension issue, not width.

[torbill]

None of us likes the Abrams look in that hinge drill, for sure. But, is there any video of Abrams actually making a normal, full golf swing that we can examine? After all, we are comparing a static position in which he is illustrating a teaching point versus a comparable Rocco position in an actual swing. I can find numerous videos of Ballard himself, in a teaching moment, that don’t look a whole lot different from that. And I am guessing that Abrams is not nearly so collapsed in an actual golf swing.

 

[garyt]

Not hitting a ball but a couple backswings at 55 seconds

 

[garyt]

 

 

[Ayersjj]

BUMMER !

 

[Puttersaurus Rex]

Glad I copied and pasted a bunch of tips before the great deletion of July 16th. That sucks that something great had to be tarnished.

 

Thanks for all of the information!

[Ayersjj]

What deletion? Board just had a few name changes during some fiasco I hear. > @"Puttersaurus Rex" said:

> Glad I copied and pasted a bunch of tips before the great deletion of July 16th. That sucks that something great had to be tarnished.

>

> Thanks for all of the information!

 

 

[jc4birdie]

Having taken a series of online lessons from Bill, I can assure you that he does NOT collapse like that video of him teaching a hinge drill. In the lessons, he'd show me how to do each drill himself, and he in no way is collapsed at the top. Soft-armed, "half a left arm", yes....collapsed? NO. And by the way, what an outstanding, nice fellow.

[Boise59]

> @torbill said:

> None of us likes the Abrams look in that hinge drill, for sure. But, is there any video of Abrams actually making a normal, full golf swing that we can examine? After all, we are comparing a static position in which he is illustrating a teaching point versus a comparable Rocco position in an actual swing. I can find numerous videos of Ballard himself, in a teaching moment, that don’t look a whole lot different from that. And I am guessing that Abrams is not nearly so collapsed in an actual golf swing.

>

 

Ok I wanted to stay out of this but I have to jump in. The folding arms drill is just that a drill....you guys take all this stuff too literally. Many times when I worked with Jimmy and Artie McNickle they had me do that drill and I still do it today.

 

As far as the RA2, it fits into the Ballard mold, nothing wrong with it if you like it.

 

As far as Bill Abrams, he is one of the few legitimate Ballard teachers. Bill has spent countless hours being mentored by Jimmy as has Jane Rosenberg, Steve Wozeniak, Brian Kelly and Bill.

 

It’s funny so many people question Jimmy and his methods but as he used to say “the proof is in the pudding” Curtis Strange couldn’t get his card before he saw Jimmy, Hal Sutton was gone and Jimmy brought him back. Rocco could hardly finish the Masters in 2006 and it took maybe the greatest player in history 91 holes to beat him in the 2008 US Open.

 

It is ironic that the two greatest coaches of all time , Butch and Jimmy, who teach almost the exact same thing, get such little respect despite how they produce.

 

[Ayersjj]

Thanks for chiming in ggpro

Good stuff ??

> @ggpro said:

> > @torbill said:

> > None of us likes the Abrams look in that hinge drill, for sure. But, is there any video of Abrams actually making a normal, full golf swing that we can examine? After all, we are comparing a static position in which he is illustrating a teaching point versus a comparable Rocco position in an actual swing. I can find numerous videos of Ballard himself, in a teaching moment, that don’t look a whole lot different from that. And I am guessing that Abrams is not nearly so collapsed in an actual golf swing.

> >

>

> Ok I wanted to stay out of this but I have to jump in. The folding arms drill is just that a drill....you guys take all this stuff too literally. Many times when I worked with Jimmy and Artie McNickle they had me do that drill and I still do it today.

>

> As far as the RA2, it fits into the Ballard mold, nothing wrong with it if you like it.

>

> As far as Bill Abrams, he is one of the few legitimate Ballard teachers. Bill has spent countless hours being mentored by Jimmy as has Jane Rosenberg, Steve Wozeniak, Brian Kelly and Bill.

>

> It’s funny so many people question Jimmy and his methods but as he used to say “the proof is in the pudding” Curtis Strange couldn’t get his card before he saw Jimmy, Hal Sutton was gone and Jimmy brought him back. Rocco could hardly finish the Masters in 2006 and it took maybe the greatest player in history 91 holes to beat him in the 2008 US Open.

>

> It is ironic that the two greatest coaches of all time , Butch and Jimmy, who teach almost the exact same thing, get such little respect despite how they produce.

>

 

 

[jc4birdie]

> @97speedster said:

> The last thing I need is JB's validation on whether the Right Angle 2 is right or not, because his own words say it's right. If it's not his aid or idea, he might dispute it, I've been around him enough to know. He told me back in the 1990's that at the top of the swing the left arm is connected and the right arm reaches for the sky. If you set-up with a triangle and maintain the triangle to waist high, then shouldn't all 3 sides of the triangle remain intact at the same length? If they don't then it's not a triangle. Butch Harmon has a great track record and he sells ONE training aid for the full swing and it's the Right Angle 2 for width and to maintain the triangle to waist high and not have it collapse at the top either.

>

> There is an awful lot of criticism on what I say by people that have never tried the Right Angle 2 or are too stubborn to even look outside of the box. I can guarantee that I have spent more hours with JB than this entire thread combined AND plenty of hours in Las Vegas at Butch Harmon's school too.... regardless of what you guys think about me having a massive improvement in my game since March, I know what I am talking about and don't need validation by anyone because my scores and ball flight give me all the validation I need. I work extremely hard at this game with some of the best in the business including fitness experts like Joey D who works with Brooks, DJ, Rick and Justin Thomas. When their bio-mechanic experts prove to me that the shoulder turn is increased by a straighter right arm and I feel it for myself, then I know it's right. If your shoulder turn doesn't increase you won't be able to get it past waist high with the Right Angle 2 on. I got a ton of DM's from people thanking me and telling me their swings have never felt so good and they can vouch for the increase in their shoulder turns too, it's an instant feel.

>

> You can read Ballard's own words below. The right arm is the governor of width and when it bends too soon in the backswing the triangle is broken immediately, that is a fact of science and math. I'll put my knowledge of Ballard, Butch and the golf swing in general against anybody and not only that, I'll use myself and my scores as an example when I do it, not Google images!

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> Along with Nicklaus, you can see width (triangle intact is the same thing as width by the way) in every great player and find me one that goes narrow to wide.

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Here, here, Speedster! Thank you for explaining what I couldn't really find the words to, and that is simply that JB isn't anti-width, he just uses different ways of teaching it than an aide, such as RA2. Butch and Jimmy are pretty darned similar, beyond the issue of mannerisms. In fact, I think in all top teachers, the differences are pretty minute; the verbiage and ways of teaching concepts differ quite a bit in some of them. For example, JB using "fall in" vs. "shallowing" the club is no material difference....you go wide to narrow in the downswing (or at least narrowER)...see pg. 112 of JB's book, where he says the plane of the downswing is slightly under the backswing plane. It's right in the book....."never has a good golfer done this (swing back and down on the same plane)"....1st full paragraph of pg. 112.

 

Arguing swing theory is pretty pointless, in terms of who is right and wrong. The fundamentals are pretty much agreed upon, within reasonable tolerances. I love JB, but it's b/c it helped me play better. RA2 is helping, too. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Puttersaurus Rex]

> @Ayersjj said:

> What deletion? Board just had a few name changes during some fiasco I hear. > @"Puttersaurus Rex" said:

> > Glad I copied and pasted a bunch of tips before the great deletion of July 16th. That sucks that something great had to be tarnished.

> >

> > Thanks for all of the information!

>

>

Speeder deleted his original post on page 1, and most other posts in this thread. Just odd looking back through the thread.

 

 

[Ayersjj]

Thats 1,300 messages to go back thru and delete. Wow. Oh well. Im too old to remember wth people post anyway. When I got divorced I threw all my videos out of my golf lessons with Jimmy like an idiot. The good news I must have watchd them 1000 times so Im golden w JB lesson stuff at least. Lol....

> @"Puttersaurus Rex" said:

> > @Ayersjj said:

> > What deletion? Board just had a few name changes during some fiasco I hear. > @"Puttersaurus Rex" said:

> > > Glad I copied and pasted a bunch of tips before the great deletion of July 16th. That sucks that something great had to be tarnished.

> > >

> > > Thanks for all of the information!

> >

> >

> Speeder deleted his original post on page 1, and most other posts in this thread. Just odd looking back through the thread.

>

>

 

 

[BrianMcG]

We just can't have nice things.

[Ayersjj]

Digging it out of the dirt

https://golfsciencelab.com/hal-sutton-digging-it-out-of-the-dirt/

[torbill]

 

 

> @jc4birdie said:

> Having taken a series of online lessons from Bill, I can assure you that he does NOT collapse like that video of him teaching a hinge drill. In the lessons, he'd show me how to do each drill himself, and he in no way is collapsed at the top. Soft-armed, "half a left arm", yes....collapsed? NO. And by the way, what an outstanding, nice fellow.

 

As I suspected.

 

I will find out where the teachers that ggpro named are located. We do a lot of driving trips and if any of these people is near where we go I could see one. You say that you took lessons online from Abrams. Can you say a few words about how that works and how it worked out for you?

 

 

[torbill]

JJ, I saw that video of Sutton that you posted, but now it is gone. It’s worth a close look. I have often watched it, and he does a beautiful one-piece takeaway. When my swing goes south on the golf course it is likely about how I am starting my backswing - tension or whatever causes setting some sort of an angle, which is lethal.

 

For me, getting the start of the backswing consistently right is a lot harder than getting the start of the downswing right. I can’t get it right using Sutton’s idea of how the old time players got the swing going by pushing the hands straight back. I have tried various things over the years, including what the old time players do as well as pushing the club into the ground a teensy bit, so that the body starts back and drags the club head. When I do these things I get a good backswing, but they feel so strange that I can’t keep it up.

 

The feel that I have been working with lately, when it goes bad on the course, is to make sure that I feel a bit of pressure on the side of the index finger of my lead hand. Or, slow the takeaway down to the point where I feel no pressure whatsoever in the hands/arms, just completely passive. And it is like Sutton says, when I get it going right at the start I just know that I will have a good shot because the body coils the way it should.

 

 

[torbill]

> @Ayersjj said:

> Digging it out of the dirt

> https://golfsciencelab.com/hal-sutton-digging-it-out-of-the-dirt/

 

He wasn’t talking about golf. He was talking about life. What is means to be human. Never stop trying to make yourself better. Grit trumps talent. Perspiration, not inspiration. Dig it out. Own your swing. Own your life.

 

[jc4birdie]

Torbill, Abrams was great for me. It was more of a fundamental "check up". We did a series of weekly lessons for a month. See, I'm a JB guy who had ALOT to undo once I began the Connection journey. You name it, I did it incorrectly. Ingraining good moves has been a 3 year journey for me; still working on it. Bill would send me vids of drills he wanted me to do, him being the demonstrator. Each drill built upon the fundamentals of the previous drill; I'd immediately recognize what fundamental he was advising work on, b/c he's pure Ballard. I dropped 2 strokes off my index in a month, and another stroke in the subsequent month.

 

Let me add another thing, having bought RA2 at Speedster's encouragment. This thing is the real deal, and yes, JB would approve. Like much in golf, what this improves is not necessarily what you'd think....yeah, width for sure, but it also creates a great right arm position @ the top (a key to a JB swing), and MAKES you use and drive your legs/feet from the ground up as the primary means f making the club travel. Ironically, since it's on the right arm, it also creates a deeper left shoulder coil w/ better left shoulder/body connection. I was flying every club a full club and a half farther today on the range, and the connection/plane/effortless propulsion improvement was astounding. Highly recommend RA2. Butch and Jimmy are very similar, and RA2 is tailor made for trail side/arm throwers, which is JB.

[jc4birdie]

Admittedly, a too flat right arm is something I constantly battle, so RA2 addresses a big fault of mine. But still, it's a winner on MANY fronts....

[torbill]

> @jc4birdie said:

> Torbill, Abrams was great for me. It was more of a fundamental "check up". We did a series of weekly lessons for a month. See, I'm a JB guy who had ALOT to undo once I began the Connection journey. You name it, I did it incorrectly. Ingraining good moves has been a 3 year journey for me; still working on it. Bill would send me vids of drills he wanted me to do, him being the demonstrator. Each drill built upon the fundamentals of the previous drill; I'd immediately recognize what fundamental he was advising work on, b/c he's pure Ballard. I dropped 2 strokes off my index in a month, and another stroke in the subsequent month.

>

> Let me add another thing, having bought RA2 at Speedster's encouragment. This thing is the real deal, and yes, JB would approve. Like much in golf, what this improves is not necessarily what you'd think....yeah, width for sure, but it also creates a great right arm position @ the top (a key to a JB swing), and MAKES you use and drive your legs/feet from the ground up as the primary means f making the club travel. Ironically, since it's on the right arm, it also creates a deeper left shoulder coil w/ better left shoulder/body connection. I was flying every club a full club and a half farther today on the range, and the connection/plane/effortless propulsion improvement was astounding. Highly recommend RA2. Butch and Jimmy are very similar, and RA2 is tailor made for trail side/arm throwers, which is JB.

 

Ha, tell me about it. I've been at the Ballard method twice as long as you and I still have trouble trying to escape all of the bad ideas that I ingrained over the years.

 

How did he evaluate your problems and needs? Did you send him videos or photos?

 

JB will also do a remote swing analysis. At some point I want a remote or in-person analysis/lesson from a top-notch Ballard instructor, any one with a sharp eye. I've been digging It out on my own. This way makes me feel best about myself and I've made great progress (but it's been slow!). But at some point I am going to be out of ideas and I'll need expert help to improve.

 

As for the RA 2, my feeling is that any device that gives you one and a half clubs more distance should be stored in a safe place and never loaned out to careless friends, grin. That is outstanding! Where are they hiding the model for lefties?

 

 

 

[jc4birdie]

I sent a first swing vid, Torbill, DTL and face-on. Abrams did voice-over my vids to analyze, and sent an accompanying vdeo lesson and drill, w/ him performing the drill and importantly, explaining what fundamental the drill was designed to improve. Then, the next week, I'd send vids of me performing the drill....he'd analyze my drill work, and then he'd move onto to the next thing he wanted to address, rinse, lather, repeat. Very consistent process. I still use "tee forward" today, anytime I get lazy getting my body thru the shot....awesome drill. I HATED doing one drill he gave me, but it was effective....short iron to the top, stop, definitive pause, and then go....you CANNOT cheat the swing doing this drill, but so help me, when you do it right, your shot goes DEAD STRAIGHT and solid, right at your target. But gosh, I hated doing that drill!

[garyt]

Any of you guys use the Swingshirt? I have one on the way and wonder who's used it.

[Boise59]

> @garyt said:

> Any of you guys use the Swingshirt? I have one on the way and wonder who's used it.

 

I use mine all the time it is awesome , can use it with full swing, short game and putting

 

[Boise59]

 

> JB will also do a remote swing analysis. At some point I want a remote or in-person analysis/lesson from a top-notch Ballard instructor, any one with a sharp eye. I've been digging It out on my own. This way makes me feel best about myself and I've made great progress (but it's been slow!). But at some point I am going to be out of ideas and I'll need expert help to improve.

 

If you want to send me a video of your swing I’d be glad to look at it