Match Play 2018

[Gapwedger7]

Greetings,

 

So match play has started back up at the local course in my hometown of warner robins, Ga. The pairings this year were drawn out of a hat. (Handicapped) I placed in the semi-finals last year so looking forward to playing in this year's event. Played my first match last week and played one of my better rounds in competition. My opponent was a 16HC and I was a 15HC. I shot 1over on the front side and was only up 3 holes. I ended up winning match on hole 16; we both finished the round after the match was over. So completed the final two holes. My opponent was pretty nice but he looked at me afterwards and said your not a 15HC. Meanwhile he shot even on the back and shot an 80 for the day birdieing 3 of the last 4 holes. All I could tell him was I had one of the best days of my golfing career. He just chuckled and said that's what the guy told me last year when I got beat. He went on to say I must need to make my HC a 30 for next year's event. By the way he hit a 350 yd. drive on hole 9 earlier that day. I got to thinking on the way home and over the weekend if I would have not shot my best round and shot my average score of 86 or so I would have been crushed. Anyway match play is so weird; it really seems only to come down to about 5 or 6 holes no matter if one is playing bad or good when playing in the amateur arena.

 

Anybody else had a similar experience in Match Play?

[masamitsu]

Wait, your opponent was a 16, shot 80 and was complaining? Bro, he needs to get a mirror. By the way, what did you shoot?

[jester]

Joined a new 2-person league this year at a local course that is a 9-hole match/medal combination with 10 total points. Any new players get a handicap after 2 rounds (best score for those 2 rounds) and then they go back and adjust the first 2 weeks. I had an unbelievably terrible first 2 weeks so my handicap was a 10 for 9 holes - when in reality it should be more like a 4 or 5. Last week, I shot 3 over and my opponent was very upset with me. Made several comments during the round and in the clubhouse after. I told him that my handicap was higher than it should be but I'm not sure what more I should have done? Before the league started, I even spoke with the Pro and told him what I thought my handicap should start off at and he said they only use league scores.

[NDS55]

I have played matches where I have entered the best scores that I have ever shot, and still lost. The results of your match are definitely extreme, and the loser who probably thought his round should be the lowest net score among all competitors, not just his own match, would understandably be surprised, whether his handicap is legit or not.

btw, if 86 is your AVERAGE score on a course of average difficulty, you aren't a legit 15 either.

[MidwestGolfBum]

That kind of thing is exactly why I hate playing in matchplay things where you aren't just playing straight up. Played in a fourball matchplay at my club last year and needed a birdie on the last hole to close out the match. Partner shot something like 65 (-7) and I was 1 or 2 over for the day playing 2 guys who "hardly had any rounds in" but saw their names on the tee sheet almost daily with no scores posted. Handicap committee not doing their job if that's the kind of thing it takes to win... And they wonder why participation in club events is down.

[Gapwedger7]

NDS55,

 

The man in charge said my HC would be based on past history and scores in past tournament events so I had no say in the matter. I had only played a few times this year and was coming off a hip injury. Just had one great lucky round. I mean web Simpson had a great round this past weekend that was ridiculous; in no way am I comparing me to him but he shot way over his norm. It happens every now and then right?

 

Wait, your opponent was a 16, shot 80 and was complaining? Bro, he needs to get a mirror. By the way, what did you shoot?

 

I was 1 over through 16...

[criley_4way]

I have always felt that Match Play doesn't work well with 100% HCP. For anyone in the higher range the variance is really high and makes it a rough or easy ride for a low HCP.

 

When complaining about a Handicap I usually look at HOW they shoot a score. A 15 who hits 12 fairways and is sticking 4i I question. Someone who makes tons of putts and chips I think is just having a good day.

[davep043]

 

Anybody else had a similar experience in Match Play?

Anyone who has played competitive handicapped golf has had a similar experience. I've certainly been on both sides of it, shot some great scores, and been beat by some great scores. It happens. Unlike yours, all of mine has been based on USGA handicaps. If there's ever a little grumbling, I make sure that I enter the score immediately, so its visible by everyone. In your case, when both players have had really good rounds, I'd probably have offered to enter my opponent's score too, right there.

 

Handicap committee not doing their job if that's the kind of thing it takes to win... And they wonder why participation in club events is down.

So join the Handicap Committee, and be part of the cure.

[joey2aces]

you both are baggers ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ushandic...asp?id=10817895

 

 

what are both your GHIN's?? I want to see those tournament scores posted..... :busted_cop:

[Gapwedger7]

you both are baggers ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ushandic...asp?id=10817895

 

 

what are both your GHIN's?? I want to see those tournament scores posted..... :busted_cop:

 

Joey,

 

This is a city course and they do not require GHIN's to play in tournament events; I have had GHIN's(for other courses) in the past but have just got back into golf recently this year so have not established one yet. I have played in a ton of competitive events at this course and my best score is a 79 a few years back. Last year my best score was like an 88 in a big tournament event.

[Gapwedger7]

Anybody else had a similar experience in Match Play?

Anyone who has played competitive handicapped golf has had a similar experience. I've certainly been on both sides of it, shot some great scores, and been beat by some great scores. It happens. Unlike yours, all of mine has been based on USGA handicaps. If there's ever a little grumbling, I make sure that I enter the score immediately, so its visible by everyone. In your case, when both players have had really good rounds, I'd probably have offered to enter my opponent's score too, right there.

 

Handicap committee not doing their job if that's the kind of thing it takes to win... And they wonder why participation in club events is down.

So join the Handicap Committee, and be part of the cure.

 

DaveP043,

 

That would be a good idea to enter his score if he was in the GHIN system. I wish all match play events were straight up or at least for first few rounds making pairing's to be similar HC's. One lady who plays the course regularly is a 28HC; some lower HC's end up having to give her 2 strokes per hole. (Ouch)

[Gapwedger7]

I have always felt that Match Play doesn't work well with 100% HCP. For anyone in the higher range the variance is really high and makes it a rough or easy ride for a low HCP.

 

When complaining about a Handicap I usually look at HOW they shoot a score. A 15 who hits 12 fairways and is sticking 4i I question. Someone who makes tons of putts and chips I think is just having a good day.

 

Criley_4way,

 

This is a short city course and depending on the strength/weakness of player there could be major differences even if say you have 2 HC's that are equivalent, also if one has played the course enough they might know where to miss shots, but I get what your saying about how one shoots during the round to get to that low score. Also if an opponent concedes a hole the score card could be deceiving too. Ex. Player A has a 5 footer for par while player B is putting for triple and therefore just concedes the hole. Player A gets a par but could have been a bogey...

[davep043]

That would be a good idea to enter his score if he was in the GHIN system. I wish all match play events were straight up or at least for first few rounds making pairing's to be similar HC's. One lady who plays the course regularly is a 28HC; some lower HC's end up having to give her 2 strokes per hole. (Ouch)

Yeah, I did read that the handicaps for that match were based on previous scores and tournaments, not official USGA numbers. I agree that its more fun playing when the skill levels are close, but we all know that's not always possible. On the other hand, I know the statistics, I'm going to win a lot more matches against a 25 handicapper than I'll lose. My average day will beat his average day, every time. It may be mentally difficult for the low handicapper, but he really does have the advantage.

 

I have always felt that Match Play doesn't work well with 100% HCP. For anyone in the higher range the variance is really high and makes it a rough or easy ride for a low HCP.

 

When complaining about a Handicap I usually look at HOW they shoot a score. A 15 who hits 12 fairways and is sticking 4i I question. Someone who makes tons of putts and chips I think is just having a good day.

Also if an opponent concedes a hole the score card could be deceiving too. Ex. Player A has a 5 footer for par while player B is putting for triple and therefore just concedes the hole. Player A gets a par but could have been a bogey...

The Handicap Manual tells you what to do in this situation, Player A records the score he "most likely" would have made. Also, if he can do it without holding up play, he could try to make the putt, and record the actual score. For handicap reporting purposes, you don't necessarily have to record a conceded stroke as if its holed. And my apologies to those who aren't under the USGA system, I know this whole thing sounds very odd.

[Lenny7]

When I was a 7 I shot a 95 and I was accused of reverse sandbagging.

[joey2aces]

you both are baggers ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ushandic...asp?id=10817895

 

 

what are both your GHIN's?? I want to see those tournament scores posted..... :busted_cop:

 

Joey,

 

This is a city course and they do not require GHIN's to play in tournament events; I have had GHIN's(for other courses) in the past but have just got back into golf recently this year so have not established one yet. I have played in a ton of competitive events at this course and my best score is a 79 a few years back. Last year my best score was like an 88 in a big tournament event.

 

ohhh a city course?? You should have said that at first.... totally my bad.......

[Gapwedger7]

That would be a good idea to enter his score if he was in the GHIN system. I wish all match play events were straight up or at least for first few rounds making pairing's to be similar HC's. One lady who plays the course regularly is a 28HC; some lower HC's end up having to give her 2 strokes per hole. (Ouch)

Yeah, I did read that the handicaps for that match were based on previous scores and tournaments, not official USGA numbers. I agree that its more fun playing when the skill levels are close, but we all know that's not always possible. On the other hand, I know the statistics, I'm going to win a lot more matches against a 25 handicapper than I'll lose. My average day will beat his average day, every time. It may be mentally difficult for the low handicapper, but he really does have the advantage.

 

I have always felt that Match Play doesn't work well with 100% HCP. For anyone in the higher range the variance is really high and makes it a rough or easy ride for a low HCP.

 

When complaining about a Handicap I usually look at HOW they shoot a score. A 15 who hits 12 fairways and is sticking 4i I question. Someone who makes tons of putts and chips I think is just having a good day.

Also if an opponent concedes a hole the score card could be deceiving too. Ex. Player A has a 5 footer for par while player B is putting for triple and therefore just concedes the hole. Player A gets a par but could have been a bogey...

The Handicap Manual tells you what to do in this situation, Player A records the score he "most likely" would have made. Also, if he can do it without holding up play, he could try to make the putt, and record the actual score. For handicap reporting purposes, you don't necessarily have to record a conceded stroke as if its holed. And my apologies to those who aren't under the USGA system, I know this whole thing sounds very odd.

 

Dave,

 

I get what your saying about the hand-cap Manuel; in our case we called the "acting pro" and he said to just put down on the card what your next putt would have been if made which in the case was par for me and triple for him.

[davep043]

 

Dave,

 

I get what your saying about the hand-cap Manuel; in our case we called the "acting pro" and he said to just put down on the card what your next putt would have been if made which in the case was par for me and triple for him.

And since the handicaps you're using for this competition are a local version, not official USGA, the organizers can make whatever rules they think are appropriate. I just think its appropriate that people who keep a USGA handicap understand what the USGA says.about conceded strokes, and other holes your don't finish.

[HatsForBats]

I love match play. You can have a few bad holes, or more, and most likely still have a chance of winning.

I hate match play... when my opponent with a HC much higher than mine has a great day. There is nothing I can do to compete when they are having THAT round.

[davep043]

I love match play. You can have a few bad holes, or more, and most likely still have a chance of winning.

I hate match play... when my opponent with a HC much higher than mine has a great day. There is nothing I can do to compete when they are having THAT round.

I've played against a better player who had a great day, impossible to keep up when that happens too. No matter the handicap spread, a great round beats a normal round every time.

[HatsForBats]

I love match play. You can have a few bad holes, or more, and most likely still have a chance of winning.

I hate match play... when my opponent with a HC much higher than mine has a great day. There is nothing I can do to compete when they are having THAT round.

I've played against a better player who had a great day, impossible to keep up when that happens too. No matter the handicap spread, a great round beats a normal round every time.

 

Not sure of the point there. If a normal round would beat a great round then the entire system would be worthless.

 

Maybe we shouldn't use words like impossible and nothing. Let's just say it is very unlikely that you would have a great day at the same time the better player was having a great day. However, if that same better player was playing against an opponent with a 32 course handicap the high handicapper would match the same net score much more often than you.

[Under2hours]

you both are baggers ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ushandic...asp?id=10817895

 

 

what are both your GHIN's?? I want to see those tournament scores posted..... :busted_cop:

 

Agreed.... He even said as a 15 his average is 86..... That actually probably puts him as a 12 unless they are playing a ridiculously simple course.

 

My regular group of a 7, 10, 13 & 14 seldom has 3 birdies in a round, let alone a 16 birdieing 3 of the last 4.

 

And the OP as a 15 made the Semi's last year...... Sure.........

[davep043]

I love match play. You can have a few bad holes, or more, and most likely still have a chance of winning.

I hate match play... when my opponent with a HC much higher than mine has a great day. There is nothing I can do to compete when they are having THAT round.

I've played against a better player who had a great day, impossible to keep up when that happens too. No matter the handicap spread, a great round beats a normal round every time.

 

Not sure of the point there. If a normal round would beat a great round then the entire system would be worthless.

 

Maybe we shouldn't use words like impossible and nothing. Let's just say it is very unlikely that you would have a great day at the same time the better player was having a great day. However, if that same better player was playing against an opponent with a 32 course handicap the high handicapper would match the same net score much more often than you.

I'm really commenting on a common complaint by lower handicappers, that they have such a tough time playing against a high handicapper. They hate the 40% of the time they lose, but neglect to look at the 60% of the time that they win. From Dean Knuth, who understands the statistics behind handicapping better than most:

In a match between an eight handicapper and a 14 handicapper, the better player is giving away six strokes, yet the odds are still 60-40 that he will win the match.

You lament that when you play a higher handicapper, and he has a great day, you can't compete. Yet over time you'll win a lot more matches than that high-handicapper would. The system gives an edge to better players, but you ARE going to lose sometimes.

[Gapwedger7]

you both are baggers ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ushandic...asp?id=10817895

 

 

what are both your GHIN's?? I want to see those tournament scores posted..... :busted_cop:

 

Agreed.... He even said as a 15 his average is 86..... That actually probably puts him as a 12 unless they are playing a ridiculously simple course.

 

My regular group of a 7, 10, 13 & 14 seldom has 3 birdies in a round, let alone a 16 birdieing 3 of the last 4.

 

And the OP as a 15 made the Semi's last year...... Sure.........

 

Under2hours,

 

I only had one birdie that day and there were some conceded par's on my opponents end that could have been bogey's. Yes I did make the semi-finals last year and got beat by a 4HC. He had a nice day and I shot like a 91...

[larrybud]

While I'm a fan of Knuth, he's not talking apples to apples in the 8 vs 14 scenario, because he's figuring out the advantage with *STROKE PLAY*, not match play.

 

Those doubles and triples the 14 is making are boosting his handicap more than one "needs" to equalize the playing field.

 

Take two 10 handicappers. One a steady eddy, maybe an old guy who bunts it down the fairway, almost never hits it ob or lost ball (because he doesn't hit it far enough to get into trouble). Makes a ton of pars and bogeys, not many doubles or worse, vs the bomber who can made 2-3 birds a round, but also has 3-4 triples. Sure, ESC kicks in for him sometimes. The bomber is going to kill the old guy in match play.

[xenocide1]

I don't think it's a pure win/loss thing. When a high cap is "on" they will post a net score that a low cap can't match even if the low cap is also "on". So yes in individual situations the low cap wins more than they lose.

 

However most events are against a field. In stroke play it's all at once, in match play tournament you play individual matches, but over the course of the whole tournament you play a field. One really good day from any high cap in the field and the low cap is done even if they also have a good day.

[HatsForBats]

I love match play. You can have a few bad holes, or more, and most likely still have a chance of winning.

I hate match play... when my opponent with a HC much higher than mine has a great day. There is nothing I can do to compete when they are having THAT round.

I've played against a better player who had a great day, impossible to keep up when that happens too. No matter the handicap spread, a great round beats a normal round every time.

 

Not sure of the point there. If a normal round would beat a great round then the entire system would be worthless.

 

Maybe we shouldn't use words like impossible and nothing. Let's just say it is very unlikely that you would have a great day at the same time the better player was having a great day. However, if that same better player was playing against an opponent with a 32 course handicap the high handicapper would match the same net score much more often than you.

I'm really commenting on a common complaint by lower handicappers, that they have such a tough time playing against a high handicapper. They hate the 40% of the time they lose, but neglect to look at the 60% of the time that they win. From Dean Knuth, who understands the statistics behind handicapping better than most:

In a match between an eight handicapper and a 14 handicapper, the better player is giving away six strokes, yet the odds are still 60-40 that he will win the match.

You lament that when you play a higher handicapper, and he has a great day, you can't compete. Yet over time you'll win a lot more matches than that high-handicapper would. The system gives an edge to better players, but you ARE going to lose sometimes.

 

I also lament that when the much better player has a bad day and so does the high capper the lesser player has a very hard time competing. Since the better player does not have an advantage at the lower (better) end of scoring then it has to balance out on the other end. Correct?

[Under2hours]

While I'm a fan of Knuth, he's not talking apples to apples in the 8 vs 14 scenario, because he's figuring out the advantage with *STROKE PLAY*, not match play.

 

Those doubles and triples the 14 is making are boosting his handicap more than one "needs" to equalize the playing field.

 

Take two 10 handicappers. One a steady eddy, maybe an old guy who bunts it down the fairway, almost never hits it ob or lost ball (because he doesn't hit it far enough to get into trouble). Makes a ton of pars and bogeys, not many doubles or worse, vs the bomber who can made 2-3 birds a round, but also has 3-4 triples. Sure, ESC kicks in for him sometimes. The bomber is going to kill the old guy in match play.

 

That's me..... Short hitter, seldom in huge trouble (though like many 12-14 can easily leave one in the trap or skull it across the green & not strong enough to muscle out of the deep rough) , but not many triples or worse on the card.

 

Then the scenario made worse above where the bomber doesn't hit esc and his card is littered with triples (or worse) that would be adjusted.....

[Gapwedger7]

While I'm a fan of Knuth, he's not talking apples to apples in the 8 vs 14 scenario, because he's figuring out the advantage with *STROKE PLAY*, not match play.

 

Those doubles and triples the 14 is making are boosting his handicap more than one "needs" to equalize the playing field.

 

Take two 10 handicappers. One a steady eddy, maybe an old guy who bunts it down the fairway, almost never hits it ob or lost ball (because he doesn't hit it far enough to get into trouble). Makes a ton of pars and bogeys, not many doubles or worse, vs the bomber who can made 2-3 birds a round, but also has 3-4 triples. Sure, ESC kicks in for him sometimes. The bomber is going to kill the old guy in match play.

 

larrybud,

 

I think you bring up some very good points, It's the little things that factor into Match play that tale the tale it seems like:

 

As you mentioned what type of player is a HC, also I think the course being played and familiarity of it plays a part, if it's a short course the bomber might be able to get a way with hitting 3 wood and not have as many bad holes as well opposed to a longer course where the bomber hits driver and doubles or triples. As I mentioned above I think whether one is having a good or bad day in match play it seems like one will be in the match and have a chance to win on back side.

[Bourni1]

NDS55,

 

The man in charge said my HC would be based on past history and scores in past tournament events so I had no say in the matter. I had only played a few times this year and was coming off a hip injury. Just had one great lucky round. I mean web Simpson had a great round this past weekend that was ridiculous; in no way am I comparing me to him but he shot way over his norm. It happens every now and then right?

 

Wait, your opponent was a 16, shot 80 and was complaining? Bro, he needs to get a mirror. By the way, what did you shoot?

 

I was 1 over through 16...

Sorry man, but you are not a 15 hc if you were +1 through 16. Handicap is not an average score it is a measure of ability based on certain averages, ratings etc.,

 

Granted, your opponent was probably not a 16 either, but I would be pretty pissed if I a mid handicapper were to shoot a score like yours.

[davep043]

While I'm a fan of Knuth, he's not talking apples to apples in the 8 vs 14 scenario, because he's figuring out the advantage with *STROKE PLAY*, not match play.

Let me post the quote again:

][/u]In a match between an eight handicapper and a 14 handicapper, the better player is giving away six strokes, yet the odds are still 60-40 that he will win the match.

It appears to me that Knuth is specifically talking about match play, since he uses the word "match" twice in the sentence. And in a match play tournament, if the lowest handicap player has an edge in every single match he plays, he has the best chance of winning the whole thing. The odds against him winning a number of matches in a row are not great, but they're better than for anyone else in the field.