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Butch Harmon - keeping arms in front of chest


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Hi All,

 

I have been watching some of Butch Harmons older instruction and a common theme is keeping the arms in front of the chest on the backswing and downswing.

 

In real terms what does this actually mean and what are the feels?

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

read the first few pages of Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion that is pinned at the top of the instruction folder. It should tell you all you need to know.

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Here's what I struggle with every time the "keeping arms in front of chest" topic comes up...

 

Like Matt Kuchar, my wingspan is greater than my height (by like 3"). Our arms are long enough that anything close to full extension on the backswing places the arms on the side of the torso rather than in front of the chest:

 

matt-kuchar-iron-backswing.jpg

 

I know it's a semantic thing, but to me, Kuch's arms are loaded on the right side of his torso—not in front AT ALL.

 

If I truly try to keep my arms in front of my chest during the backswing, my right shoulder never gets deep enough, and my downswing is a complete joke. If I let em rip back to a "natural" position, I can fire the club at tour speeds and play some decent golf.

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Here's what I struggle with every time the "keeping arms in front of chest" topic comes up...

 

Like Matt Kuchar, my wingspan is greater than my height (by like 3"). Our arms are long enough that anything close to full extension on the backswing places the arms on the side of the torso rather than in front of the chest:

 

matt-kuchar-iron-backswing.jpg

 

I know it's a semantic thing, but to me, Kuch's arms are loaded on the right side of his torso—not in front AT ALL.

 

If I truly try to keep my arms in front of my chest during the backswing, my right shoulder never gets deep enough, and my downswing is a complete joke. If I let em rip back to a "natural" position, I can fire the club at tour speeds and play some decent golf.

My issue exactly. I'm 6'3" and my wingspan is 78" - 6'6". My right elbow almost always ends up on my right hip or just behind it on the downswing with an iron. To get my arms in front of me and have forward shaft lean, my hand end up almost a foot from my belt coming into impact. So I almost never make true ball first contact with an iron. My divots (when I have them) start at the ball or just behind. I have tried the impact snap and most every drill and nothing helps.

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My divots (when I have them) start at the ball or just behind. I have tried the impact snap and most every drill and nothing helps.

I deal with this exact same issue.

 

For me, the solution is to warm up with "one-handed" swings where the left hand swings the club and the right hand is barely touching it. My intention is to release the right hand before impact.

 

If I'm using too much right hand or trying to release the club too late, the ball will start low and left. I'll know I'm synced up and releasing the club properly when I can smash a couple line drives down the middle with this one-handed release.

 

Ultimately, this is a mental issue. We think we need to drive the club head behind/under the ball with the right hand, but this will set up a steep approach and a late release with an open club face—flare city.

 

In reality, we need to use the right hand to release more "out and around" from the top rather than down into the back of the ball. If you're doing it right, you'll see the shaft shallow a little bit at the top of the downswing and align with the right forearm rather than steepening into a plane between the elbows.

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Kuchar's left arm is loaded deep, but I would still say they are in front and not stuck behind his shirt seam

Semantics.

 

I get into that same position, and my arms feel like they're almost attached to the outside of my rib cage—literally "on my side."

 

I would never in a million years characterize that feeling as "out in front."

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Agreed with the other posters... In my personal opinion this isn't a feeling that those of us with long wingspans (aka ape-arms) should strive for so much. The goal of course is to prevent arm overrun, but I think there are other intents that can accomplish that feel without feeling like you are restricted from getting your arms/shoulder deep in the backswing.

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When your trail elbow gets "stuck" on you hip or 'behind' you, then you are forcing your right hand to release too early and viola` fat city. There isn't enough room get my right elbow 'in front' of my left hip. That seem to be the key to getting shaft lean and hence more control and greater distance out of your irons. I try to barely hold on with the right hand, but the result is still the same. I'm more of a picker so if I am taking divots, it's a bad sign.

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Hi All,

 

I have been watching some of Butch Harmons older instruction and a common theme is keeping the arms in front of the chest on the backswing and downswing.

 

In real terms what does this actually mean and what are the feels?

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

So again this goes back to my "Ah Ha" thread .... but here we go.

 

1) I dont know if MANY instructors have intent to be literal in their instruction, but to help the player, get into the proper positions through corrective feelings.

 

 

Got that out of the way.

 

so my interpretation now, understanding what I comprehend.

 

Butch saying keeping the arms infront of the chest is a feeling or has an intention but likely not completely literal.

 

Here is what I mean,

 

IN the back swing if you keep your arms in the center of your chest that means your Torso is fulling rotating. If the arms arm are not staying centered that means you are being active with your arms and are pulling your arms across your chest. When you your arms come across your chest you then have to actively bring the arms back, this means you now have to swipe that can cause a lot of additional issues.

 

So the "feeling" is that you dont actively move the arms to increase swing width or hitting power, but rotate your torso as a whole.

 

 

Now the same goes with the down swing in my interpretation NOW.

 

 

People that tend to cast or "SWING" at the ball end up using their arms to initiate the down swing, where your body should be uncoiling. the arms literally are hanging back, BUT the sensation should feel like they are catching up or staying center. The moment when you get over active or the arms feel like they are getting ahead, the body has to do all kinds of things to correct, OTT, EE etc.

 

 

So Back swing, arms in front no pulling or dragging across your chest, Down swing uncoil and let things fall naturally at the ball.

 

 

Again this is my interpretation! good luck!

 

 

Super good example of my errors

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

Do you see how far my arms come across my chest, I rotate fine, but I am trying to increase speed by increasing arm motion, This only initiates more bad things, My down swing is full of fail, trail arm is completely stuck, I have to stall at impact to catch up, the club is going to dig, so I have to early extend, I cast the club to square the face, I have to come over the top and hit massive slices etc....

 

If I kept my arms center or (more center) and naturally uncoil, I would not end up with EE or stalling or stuck trail elbow.

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Funny I’m 6-3, 6-4 as well and I describe it as out front. Although I know they get to my right ribs as my turn stops. , they get right back in front on the down swing. So potatoes- potahtoes .

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Hi All,

 

I have been watching some of Butch Harmons older instruction and a common theme is keeping the arms in front of the chest on the backswing and downswing.

 

In real terms what does this actually mean and what are the feels?

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

So again this goes back to my "Ah Ha" thread .... but here we go.

 

1) I dont know if MANY instructors have intent to be literal in their instruction, but to help the player, get into the proper positions through corrective feelings.

 

 

Got that out of the way.

 

so my interpretation now, understanding what I comprehend.

 

Butch saying keeping the arms infront of the chest is a feeling or has an intention but likely not completely literal.

 

Here is what I mean,

 

IN the back swing if you keep your arms in the center of your chest that means your Torso is fulling rotating. If the arms arm are not staying centered that means you are being active with your arms and are pulling your arms across your chest. When you your arms come across your chest you then have to actively bring the arms back, this means you now have to swipe that can cause a lot of additional issues.

 

So the "feeling" is that you dont actively move the arms to increase swing width or hitting power, but rotate your torso as a whole.

 

 

Now the same goes with the down swing in my interpretation NOW.

 

 

People that tend to cast or "SWING" at the ball end up using their arms to initiate the down swing, where your body should be uncoiling. the arms literally are hanging back, BUT the sensation should feel like they are catching up or staying center. The moment when you get over active or the arms feel like they are getting ahead, the body has to do all kinds of things to correct, OTT, EE etc.

 

 

So Back swing, arms in front no pulling or dragging across your chest, Down swing uncoil and let things fall naturally at the ball.

 

 

Again this is my interpretation! good luck!

 

 

Super good example of my errors

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

Do you see how far my arms come across my chest, I rotate fine, but I am trying to increase speed by increasing arm motion, This only initiates more bad things, My down swing is full of fail, trail arm is completely stuck, I have to stall at impact to catch up, the club is going to dig, so I have to early extend, I cast the club to square the face, I have to come over the top and hit massive slices etc....

 

If I kept my arms center or (more center) and naturally uncoil, I would not end up with EE or stalling or stuck trail elbow.

 

 

1000% this.

 

 

Before I gained this takeaway thought I started everything with my arms. My wingspan is so long and I’m so flexible I could get past parallel with any club and notmake a fulll hip turn. All arms. And for a long time I played to a 1-2 handicap like that. Timing it up. And when I did make s fulll turn with Driver etc I’d see the clubhead In my left eye it wrappped around so far ( think john Daly ). All that is gone with this one thought. Club in front of my chest.

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Tiger says Butch used to make him do this drill where he would stop at the top of the downswing, and then start down with his arms before moving his shoulders. The effect was to keep his hands in front of his sternum at impact. Tiger said he HATED this drill, but Butch would make him do it for hours. When Tiger was in his heyday, he would have his hands directly in front of his sternum at impact. No one else has come close to making this work since Nick Price. (If you took a photo of Price at address and one at impact, it was hard to see any difference between the two.)

 

Personally, when I keep my hands in front of my sternum on the downswing, it feels like I am swinging really slowly, but the ball goes high and deep. Weird, but true. The feel is to keep my back to the target as long as I can at the top while swinging my hands/arms down toward the ball. I have to work on this in slomo at first before getting up to speed. Slicefixer's 9to5 drill does the same thing, IMO.

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Tiger says Butch used to make him do this drill where he would stop at the top of the downswing, and then start down with his arms before moving his shoulders. The effect was to keep his hands in front of his sternum at impact. Tiger said he HATED this drill, but Butch would make him do it for hours. When Tiger was in his heyday, he would have his hands directly in front of his sternum at impact. No one else has come close to making this work since Nick Price. (If you took a photo of Price at address and one at impact, it was hard to see any difference between the two.)

 

Personally, when I keep my hands in front of my sternum on the downswing, it feels like I am swinging really slowly, but the ball goes high and deep. Weird, but true. The feel is to keep my back to the target as long as I can at the top while swinging my hands/arms down toward the ball. I have to work on this in slomo at first before getting up to speed. Slicefixer's 9to5 drill does the same thing, IMO.

 

Nick Price did the pump drill so much that he wore out 8 iron faces JUST from doing the pump drill...top of backswing, pump the arms down, then up, the down, then up, them fire through the ball.

 

He wore out an 8 iron face just doing that dril...

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One thought that has worked for me is to feel that my right hand barely moves on the backswing. The effect of this is that my right arm usually stays more 'in front'. It feels like I'm not taking a full swing but on video I do.

 

Has anyone ever heard of this swing hought before? ie. The right hand hardly moves on the backswing?

 

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  • 3 years later...
On 6/1/2018 at 10:33 PM, Mr Titleist said:

Hi All,

 

I have been watching some of Butch Harmons older instruction and a common theme is keeping the arms in front of the chest on the backswing and downswing.

 

In real terms what does this actually mean and what are the feels?

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

When I do this I hit the ball further and more on desired trajectory.  It's hard to exercise enough restraint and patience, but it is solid gold if you do.

 

The key that seems to work for me is to keep the right hand pushed away from me on the backswing

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjyGU-9bgf8

 

This is the best definition I have ever seen of "keeping the arms in front", which is achieved by using the torso to create rotation rather than loading the left arm against the chest.  Forward to 4:00.  It is consistent with the arm swing illusion in that the left arm does not move as much as you think.

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I have long arms as well and found out that I was simply sucking my arms too much inside independent of my body. This leads to an overly flat arm structure. One way to solve this and get the arms higher and more in line with the back shoulder is to relentlessly do the hinge up and don't turn drill in Monte's NTC video.

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Stand in an upright position...

 

Grip the club and point it straight away from your chest with arms extended...

 

Perhaps easier by showing a video...

 

The key is that the shoulders continue to turn in a circle on the tilted plane...

 

Many golfers begin to add too much pronation/supination to their backswing...

 

 

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1 hour ago, mikpga said:

Stand in an upright position...

 

Grip the club and point it straight away from your chest with arms extended...

 

Perhaps easier by showing a video...

 

The key is that the shoulders continue to turn in a circle on the tilted plane...

 

Many golfers begin to add too much pronation/supination to their backswing...

 

 

I am not a fan of S+T,but the swings when you hitting the ball are an excellent demonstration . 

Just a suggestion -describe exactly what you are doing at each stage of the swing -from takeaway to going back to transition to the lower downswing from both a dtl and front views. 

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31 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

I am not a fan of S+T,but the swings when you hitting the ball are an excellent demonstration . 

Just a suggestion -describe exactly what you are doing at each stage of the swing -from takeaway to going back to transition to the lower downswing from both a dtl and front views. 

May I ask why you're not a fan?

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"Arms in front of chest" is easily mis-interpreted. It's too vague and imprecise.

 

Add the strong influence of the ASI and the situation gets even worse.

 

The Big Deal ( or at least one of a few) in mastering the craft of ball striking is the relationship between your arm swing and your pivot. And that starts with avoiding the two extremes of 1. too much lead arm in front or in line with sternum, or lead arm to chest angle (think Jim Furyk backswing) which is not too common a flaw, and 2. too much lead arm to chest angle or pulling arms in and across your chest too much, much more common flaw.  That second flaw is mostly due to the ASI mental picture acting at the subconscious mind Swing Map, which is the part of the brain that actually controls your body during a normal tempo golf swing (not the conscious thinking mind using "swing thoughts).

 

Both flaws have a very toxic  effect on your transition mechanics and especially Release mechanics. 

 

For most amateurs, who are not as fit as a tour pro, (lacking core strength and flexibility) you want a lead arm to chest angle of around 45 degrees or a bit less by end of takeaway. That angle matches up with a slightly open chest at impact ( 10 degrees wedges to about 25 degrees driver) and hips (35 to 45 degrees).

 

That means your hands start a tiny bit left of torso mid-line at Setup, and then move out and away from your chest as it rotates, but on that 45ish degree angle so the hands finish their journey more or less opposite the right side of your chest at the Top. The lead arm will move a bit more across the chest on the second half of backswing from pivot momentum (assuming you do not have too much upper arm tension in the shoulder sockets) especially with the longer clubs.

 

You want to have about the same angle in the lead arm from P6 to just after impact - 35 to 45 degrees, which means the lead arm must move down and also forwards a bit (toward mid-line of torso) in transition. If the arms are frozen in the sockets, you will have to be wide open at impact with your body to deliver the clubhead solidly into the back of the ball. If you have too much upper arms motion in the sockets, you will have to stall your pivot to not have a massive out to in path. 

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1 hour ago, Scottbox said:

I'm working through this issue. My trail elbow gets too far behind me. To remedy it, I do this:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CXxXiQuAytl/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

May or may not be for you. Who knows?

 

It's a good drill and you can actually hit balls that way as well.

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42 minutes ago, Jim Waldron said:

"Arms in front of chest" is easily mis-interpreted. It's too vague and imprecise.

 

Add the strong influence of the ASI and the situation gets even worse.

 

The Big Deal ( or at least one of a few) in mastering the craft of ball striking is the relationship between your arm swing and your pivot. And that starts with avoiding the two extremes of 1. too much lead arm in front or in line with sternum, or lead arm to chest angle (think Jim Furyk backswing) which is not too common a flaw, and 2. too much lead arm to chest angle or pulling arms in and across your chest too much, much more common flaw.  That second flaw is mostly due to the ASI mental picture acting at the subconscious mind Swing Map, which is the part of the brain that actually controls your body during a normal tempo golf swing (not the conscious thinking mind using "swing thoughts).

 

Both flaws have a very toxic  effect on your transition mechanics and especially Release mechanics. 

 

For most amateurs, who are not as fit as a tour pro, (lacking core strength and flexibility) you want a lead arm to chest angle of around 45 degrees or a bit less by end of takeaway. That angle matches up with a slightly open chest at impact ( 10 degrees wedges to about 25 degrees driver) and hips (35 to 45 degrees).

 

That means your hands start a tiny bit left of torso mid-line at Setup, and then move out and away from your chest as it rotates, but on that 45ish degree angle so the hands finish their journey more or less opposite the right side of your chest at the Top. The lead arm will move a bit more across the chest on the second half of backswing from pivot momentum (assuming you do not have too much upper arm tension in the shoulder sockets) especially with the longer clubs.

 

You want to have about the same angle in the lead arm from P6 to just after impact - 35 to 45 degrees, which means the lead arm must move down and also forwards a bit (toward mid-line of torso) in transition. If the arms are frozen in the sockets, you will have to be wide open at impact with your body to deliver the clubhead solidly into the back of the ball. If you have too much upper arms motion in the sockets, you will have to stall your pivot to not have a massive out to in path. 

 

Awesome!  Always glad to see posts from Jim.

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In front is not a term I use.  Not trailing is what I use.  You can make a pretty definitive measure on that.  

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All "tips" are welcome. Instruction not desired. 
 

 

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

BERTRAND RUSSELL

 

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If looking for a feel…try to stick your thumbs into your right ear during the backswing. Then going into finish try to stick your thumbs into your left ear.
 

*…Disclaimer it does not apply to any swing. it must fit with the depth and steepness of your path.
This only may help if you do other motions right. 
 

btw: I remember footage of Tiger with Butch on an Open championship where he could not get his arms just right in the top. I think Haney sort of solved it. Too long ago~May be others are better informed.

Edited by baudi
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      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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