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The golf ball is not a heavy weight...


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So why do so many treat it as such? There were a couple earlier posts regarding leverage which is a principle often used to move heavy things. How much does a ball weigh?

Is this necessary?

 

Examples of lever types include crowbar, stapler, and pliers. Doesn’t seem golf related to me. Just wanted to throw this out there.

To me a weight on a string is more like golf than a pair of pliers.

 

So question-do you think that golf is a lever game or a weight on a string game or both? Please discuss.

 

CHAKA

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So why do so many treat it as such? There were a couple earlier posts regarding leverage which is a principle often used to move heavy things. How much does a ball weigh?

Is this necessary?

 

Examples of lever types include crowbar, stapler, and pliers. Doesn't seem golf related to me. Just wanted to throw this out there.

To me a weight on a string is more like golf than a pair of pliers.

 

So question-do you think that golf is a lever game or a weight on a string game or both? Please discuss.

 

CHAKA

 

The posts were yours, it was discussed.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1652300-kinematic-sequencing-2-weeks-to-improve/

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A broom is a lever and you’re not moving heavy objects. A lacrosse stick is a lever used to throw a relative light ball. A golf club like a lacrosse stick and any other stick and ball sport, is a class 3 lever. I’d say you don’t know what a lever is, and they are often used to propel light objects extended distances, they are used when greater force is needed, like hitting a small ball 300 yards.

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Depending on the position of the fulcrum a lever can be used to move a heavy object a little way of a light object a long ways. The sort of leverage that applies to golf is the latter type. The club head is at the end of a long shaft moving around a fulcrum positioned at the far end of the lever, the wrists. In this case the lever is producing speed, not lifting power.

 

Steve

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Wow, Swingman. This is really continuing? I'll try to answer as dispassionately as I can to further the conversation, if at all possible...

 

I'm no engineer, but think of your crowbar example. You use it to lift a heavy weight. You can do this because the pivot point in the lever is closest to the heavy weight. You move the handle end of the crowbar a long distance with relatively low force to move the heavy object a small distance with a relatively large force. It's a force multiplier.

 

The usage of the golf club is this in reverse. You apply a force at the grip end relatively close to the fulcrum. It requires a relatively large force to move that end a relatively short distance, but the payoff is that the end farthest away from the pivot moves a relatively long distance, hence same thing in reverse.

 

I think this is known as a Class 3 lever. Like a baseball bat.

 

I believe (though feel free to clarify) is that your assertion is, because I used the term lever for the golf club (which it is) that this somehow makes me some sort of talentless techno-nerd with all of these calculations and angles in his head and no concept of feel. Is that the assertion?

 

Let me help you with your cause:

 

> I'm not a techno-nerd

> I have relatively little talent

> I have relatively little feel

> I'm not mechanically inclined enough to play with angles in my head

 

Golf for me is a flowing, but synchronized motion. It is not the domain of the lucky few that have superior hand-eye coordination. It can be learned, improved, and mastered with enough hard work and help from smart people. If it can't then I'll spend a lot of money and time proving myself wrong.

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A class three levers definition is quite simple. Fulcrum point then rod with weight on end. Force applied in middle of rod.

An example is a stapler.

We don't swing a club with one hand in the middle of the shaft and push.

Thoughts?

 

From Wikipedia:

  • Class 3: Effort in the middle: the resistance (or load) is on one side of the effort and the fulcrum is located on the other side, for example, a pair of tweezers or the human mandible. The effort arm is smaller than the load arm. Mechanical advantage is always less than 1. It is also called speed multiplier lever.

Seems to me the golf club is a perfect example of a Class 3 lever. The fulcrum is the lead hand, the effort is the trail hand, and the load is the club shaft and head. It's a "speed multiplier" lever due to the length of the shaft.

 

Of course we're also swinging the hands on an arc, which multiplies the speed our lever produces even more. But does that doesn't mean the club isn't a classic lever in itself.

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A class three levers definition is quite simple. Fulcrum point then rod with weight on end. Force applied in middle of rod.

An example is a stapler.

We don’t swing a club with one hand in the middle of the shaft and push.

Thoughts?

 

My thought again is you don’t understand what a lever is. Golf club is the definition of a class 3 lever.

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A class three levers definition is quite simple. Fulcrum point then rod with weight on end. Force applied in middle of rod.

An example is a stapler.

We don't swing a club with one hand in the middle of the shaft and push.

Thoughts?

 

Your assumption has a flaw. You have the fulcrum in the wrong place. For a right handed player the fulcrum is at the left shoulder and not at the end of the club handle. It works exactly like a class 3 lever.

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A class three levers definition is quite simple. Fulcrum point then rod with weight on end. Force applied in middle of rod.

An example is a stapler.

We don't swing a club with one hand in the middle of the shaft and push.

Thoughts?

 

Your assumption has a flaw. You have the fulcrum in the wrong place. For a right handed player the fulcrum is at the left shoulder and not at the end of the club handle. It works exactly like a class 3 lever.

 

Technically, any type of lever is a rigid rod, like a golf club... not something with a flexible pivot point in the middle. From Wiki again:

 

A lever (/ˈliːvər/ or US: /ˈlɛvər/) is a simple machine consisting of a beam or rigid rod pivoted at a fixed hinge, or fulcrum. A lever is a rigid body capable of rotating on a point on itself.

 

I still think a club is a Class 3 lever, with fulcrum at lead hand and effort at trail hand. The arms and club unit is more of a double pendulum.

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A class three levers definition is quite simple. Fulcrum point then rod with weight on end. Force applied in middle of rod.

An example is a stapler.

We don't swing a club with one hand in the middle of the shaft and push.

Thoughts?

 

Your assumption has a flaw. You have the fulcrum in the wrong place. For a right handed player the fulcrum is at the left shoulder and not at the end of the club handle. It works exactly like a class 3 lever.

 

Technically, any type of lever is a rigid rod, like a golf club... not something with a flexible pivot point in the middle. From Wiki again:

 

A lever (/ˈliːvər/ or US: /ˈlɛvər/) is a simple machine consisting of a beam or rigid rod pivoted at a fixed hinge, or fulcrum. A lever is a rigid body capable of rotating on a point on itself.

 

I still think a club is a Class 3 lever, with fulcrum at lead hand and effort at trail hand. The arms and club unit is more of a double pendulum.

 

Maybe I simplified this without explanation. At the point of maximum force for a "good" golfer the left arm will be directly in-line with the club. This will happen at a point where the clubhead is past the starting point of the golf ball. Any calculations at this point can be made assuming a class 3 lever with the fulcrum at the left shoulder. The reason your lead hand / trail hand example doesn't work can be seen in the fact that a good golfer can remove his entire trail hand and still get 85-90% of the same distance striking the ball. If the trail hand is the force you would not be able to do that by removing it from the equation totally.

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Ron, doesn’t it strike you as strange that viewed in that way how horribly inefficient that is? I’m not saying you’re wrong at all but as anyone knows lifting a weight at the end of a rod from the other side end takes way more effort than is necessary?

I know for myself before I learned to swing the clubhead I was exerting a ton of force but producing very little speed in the clubhead.

That’s why the topic interests me. That’s why I feel that even if I’m some way it can be defined as a lever used to hit a ball that using that as an intention is a recipe for a lifetime of hacking or rather it was for myself.

That’s the reason I bring it up. I think an argument can be made that in function it’s not a lever but an almost weightless flexible rod with a weighted end. Whippy tempomaster anyone?

In Montes centrifugal force video he nails it. He’s not a PhD physicist like many here (jk) but he’s right at the heart of the matter.

To me a swing is about momentum much more than leverage.

Think about for many we push a putt. Often it’s because we interfered with the swings motion. Same for a drive ‘Damn shoves it right a bit’

Thoughts? Am I crazy?

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The term lever when used with respect to a golf swing is somewhat metaphorical. We are talking about force multipliers which is what a classical lever is. , When I use the term I am thinking about two "levers" working in conjunction to produce speed at the end of the club. The first is the arms and whole club swinging freely from my shoulders. The second is the club head swinging freely from my relaxed wrists. The first produces speed in the arms and hands, the second transmits and multiplies that speed to the club head. Call those levers and I understand what you mean. Call them something else if you wish.

 

Steve

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Ron, doesn’t it strike you as strange that viewed in that way how horribly inefficient that is? I’m not saying you’re wrong at all but as anyone knows lifting a weight at the end of a rod from the other side end takes way more effort than is necessary?

I know for myself before I learned to swing the clubhead I was exerting a ton of force but producing very little speed in the clubhead.

That’s why the topic interests me. That’s why I feel that even if I’m some way it can be defined as a lever used to hit a ball that using that as an intention is a recipe for a lifetime of hacking or rather it was for myself.

That’s the reason I bring it up. I think an argument can be made that in function it’s not a lever but an almost weightless flexible rod with a weighted end. Whippy tempomaster anyone?

In Montes centrifugal force video he nails it. He’s not a PhD physicist like many here (jk) but he’s right at the heart of the matter.

To me a swing is about momentum much more than leverage.

Think about for many we push a putt. Often it’s because we interfered with the swings motion. Same for a drive ‘Damn shoves it right a bit’

Thoughts? Am I crazy?

 

Where not lifting a rob. You’re propelling an object. It’s absolut a lever and a very efficient one. It’s why the longer the club the faster the speed, ands it’s why the clubhead moves exponentially faster than the hands. It’s why a golf swing with zero wrist hinge would produce speeds drastically lower than one in which the wrist move correctly.

 

Again obviously don’t understand levers. And if you did you’d understand how small people can create massive clubhead speeds.

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So why do so many treat it as such? There were a couple earlier posts regarding leverage which is a principle often used to move heavy things. How much does a ball weigh?

Is this necessary?

 

Examples of lever types include crowbar, stapler, and pliers. Doesn’t seem golf related to me. Just wanted to throw this out there.

To me a weight on a string is more like golf than a pair of pliers.

 

So question-do you think that golf is a lever game or a weight on a string game or both? Please discuss.

 

CHAKA

 

Double pendulum with a hook face.........fun, fun, fun!

 

AC

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Ron, doesn't it strike you as strange that viewed in that way how horribly inefficient that is? I'm not saying you're wrong at all but as anyone knows lifting a weight at the end of a rod from the other side end takes way more effort than is necessary?

I know for myself before I learned to swing the clubhead I was exerting a ton of force but producing very little speed in the clubhead.

That's why the topic interests me. That's why I feel that even if I'm some way it can be defined as a lever used to hit a ball that using that as an intention is a recipe for a lifetime of hacking or rather it was for myself.

That's the reason I bring it up. I think an argument can be made that in function it's not a lever but an almost weightless flexible rod with a weighted end. Whippy tempomaster anyone?

In Montes centrifugal force video he nails it. He's not a PhD physicist like many here (jk) but he's right at the heart of the matter.

To me a swing is about momentum much more than leverage.

Think about for many we push a putt. Often it's because we interfered with the swings motion. Same for a drive 'Damn shoves it right a bit'

Thoughts? Am I crazy?

 

The only thing you're actually saying is that you've managed to think about moving the club differently, and have had better results when applying it to a golf ball. Your concept makes you move your body and club well, but not differently than someone who has a different concept who also moves the body and club well.

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^

Negative ghost rider. I am saying that the swing is like a ball on a string and leverage is something else.

Leverage as defined above seems to me as a push force from the far end of a rigid lever. I am imagining taking a weightlifting bar and stacking a plate on the far end and lifting from the other end. As I understand it that’s a lever but it seems to me inefficient.

Where am I going wrong?

 

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^

Negative ghost rider. I am saying that the swing is like a ball on a string and leverage is something else.

Leverage as defined above seems to me as a push force from the far end of a rigid lever. I am imagining taking a weightlifting bar and stacking a plate on the far end and lifting from the other end. As I understand it that’s a lever but it seems to me inefficient.

Where am I going wrong?

 

Because there are different types of levers. Some are used to lift heavy objects slowly. And some are used propel objects extremely fast. A catapult or trebuchet are levers, you apply a force on one end of the lever to propel the other end of the lever very rapidly. The difference to a golf club is where the fulcrum is located and where the force is applied.

 

Where you’re going wrong is you don’t understand physics or the topics being discussed. You’re trying to say a feel and visual that works for you is what everyone should feel and visualize and ignore what’s actually happening to propel the club.

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^

Negative ghost rider. I am saying that the swing is like a ball on a string and leverage is something else.

Leverage as defined above seems to me as a push force from the far end of a rigid lever. I am imagining taking a weightlifting bar and stacking a plate on the far end and lifting from the other end. As I understand it that’s a lever but it seems to me inefficient.

Where am I going wrong?

 

Because there are different types of levers. Some are used to lift heavy objects slowly. And some are used propel objects extremely fast. A catapult or trebuchet are levers, you apply a force on one end of the lever to propel the other end of the lever very rapidly. The difference to a golf club is where the fulcrum is located and where the force is applied.

 

Where you’re going wrong is you don’t understand physics or the topics being discussed. You’re trying to say a feel and visual that works for you is what everyone should feel and visualize and ignore what’s actually happening to propel the club.

 

I think that really gets to the core of the misunderstanding.

 

The very title of the thread implies that the OP only imagines a lever as fitting the basic crowbar (Class 1) idea, used to exert relatively large forces: 'The golf ball is not a heavy weight...'

 

As you point out there are multiple classes of lever. It's a simple but profound disconnect.

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Negative ghost rider. I am saying that the swing is like a ball on a string and leverage is something else.

Leverage as defined above seems to me as a push force from the far end of a rigid lever. I am imagining taking a weightlifting bar and stacking a plate on the far end and lifting from the other end. As I understand it that's a lever but it seems to me inefficient.

Where am I going wrong?

 

Using any wrist c0ck with that ball and string, hope so.

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Ok, so a lacrosse stick and broom were both given as examples of levers. I found this demo of a basic lacrosse throw at about 1:30 to 1:45. Notice the split grip and also notice the handle end and basket part move in opposite directions during his move.

In a golf swing this is not what happens. In golf the handle and club head are moving in the same direction in a good swing.

As for the comment about changing perspective changing the results of ones efforts well it’s obvious if you change what you are trying to do with the club there s a good chance in change in results.

Maybe it is all semantics. I just think specific words make a difference.

The swing is simple to create and the rub is that we get so lost in its description and analysis that grown men and women often struggle with learning. Maybe it would not be a big deal to me had I not taken so long to kinda get it. Maybe just pointing out things that good golfers and pros just take for granted sometimes need to be specifically explained to people who do not know them.

In practice swinging a club can be very very simple. I am not saying that means the game is easy just that people often would be best off focusing on producing a swinging action before looking at all the advanced stuff and detail that goes into really putting in time and getting good.

 

Edit I think the internet has had a negative impact for many people who try to self diagnose. Far better to go ahead and get a lesson from one of the good guys here in person and shut the you tube white noise out.

Thanks for listening.

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