Another US Major at a Course You can't play

[dhc1]

$590 + carts and incidentals a month

$45k

 

I don’t play weekend days. 3 rounds per week. Late afternoon weekends and weekdays. The difficulties of getting a weekend prime time tee time is laughable. The same guys the same time every week. Not my thing. So they have MORE entitlement because they have been there longer?

 

Their collective heads would explode if Callaway jay had the 845am Saturday tee time.

 

Thanks for the response. Does your club have charity outings?

[callawayjay]

Yes. Usually Monday’s when the course is closed. But sometimes they do buyouts during prime times and the staff is forced to find times at reciprocal clubs and that’s when it can get heated

[TadWPJ]

This thread has been epic. I'll share my $.02 later.

 

PS- I believe you can rent Ferrari's for the day...

[johnnylongball]

To keep things stirred up, I thought I'd share some information related to this specific club. My not-top-100 club pro was able to set me up at Bellerive a couple of years ago. I went back and checked the email to refresh my memory. The total was as follows:

 

Unaccompanied guest fee: $300

Cart fee: $22

Tax: $25

Tip for mandatory forecaddie: $50 (I actually can't remember how much but this is a good estimate.)

 

Total is right at $400.

[FairwayFred]

This thread has been epic. I'll share my $.02 later.

 

PS- I believe you can rent Ferrari's for the day...

 

Ben

 

You definitely can rent a Ferrari but wouldn't the Ferrari example be more analogous to playing a high end public course for high dollars (like say Pebble Beach) rather than playing a private course your not a member at?

[TadWPJ]

This thread has been epic. I'll share my $.02 later.

 

PS- I believe you can rent Ferrari's for the day...

 

Ben

 

You definitely can rent a Ferrari but wouldn't the Ferrari example be more analogous to playing a high end public course for high dollars (like say Pebble Beach) rather than playing a private course your not a member at?

 

Yes, I find many privates unaccompanied are far cheaper to play then high end public.

[FairwayFred]

This thread has been epic. I'll share my $.02 later.

 

PS- I believe you can rent Ferrari's for the day...

 

Ben

 

You definitely can rent a Ferrari but wouldn't the Ferrari example be more analogous to playing a high end public course for high dollars (like say Pebble Beach) rather than playing a private course your not a member at?

 

Yes, I find many privates unaccompanied are far cheaper to play then high end public.

 

That's fair. I can only think of a very small number of courses that charge anywhere near Pebble Beach pricing for unaccompanied non-member play.

[pldbryan]

If your private club opens up tee times a few times a week for a few hours at a time to anyone that wants to, why in the world did you join, pay $45k and continue to pay $600/ month. You could just grab one of those open tee times. You already said that you don’t play on weekends anyway. Seems odd but whatever works for you is your deal.

 

As far as all th threats of having the staff talk bad about you behind your back, what’s the point. Most of the people I know who are the biggest dicks have no clue and could care less. Those of us who like the maintaina good rep, tend to treat others at least as well as we would expect them to treat us, regardless of some position or job.

 

[callawayjay]

If your private club opens up tee times a few times a week for a few hours at a time to anyone that wants to, why in the world did you join, pay $45k and continue to pay $600/ month. You could just grab one of those open tee times. You already said that you don’t play on weekends anyway. Seems odd but whatever works for you is your deal.

 

As far as all th threats of having the staff talk bad about you behind your back, what’s the point. Most of the people I know who are the biggest dicks have no clue and could care less. Those of us who like the maintaina good rep, tend to treat others at least as well as we would expect them to treat us, regardless of some position or job.

 

They don’t offer open times for plebs and serfs. And if they did I wouldn’t mind. It just doesn’t bother me. Being private doesn’t mean I get to be unfriendly. It’s just real hard to beat out the same 16 guys for prime weekend tee times. I guess I don’t float enough cash to the pro shop.

[pldbryan]

I give..... Not sure I can follow the logic on this anymore, or the point for that matter.

[braincramp52]

I give..... Not sure I can follow the logic on this anymore, or the point for that matter.

What was the question?

[dhc1]

Yes. Usually Monday’s when the course is closed. But sometimes they do buyouts during prime times and the staff is forced to find times at reciprocal clubs and that’s when it can get heated

 

So, is it fair to say that your club already allows public access one out of seven days but that you feel that there should be more during the week?

 

In other words, it’s not a question of access but rather frequency and ease of such access?

 

FWIW, I’m not sure what the early weekend slot members have to do with this topic.

[callawayjay]

TL/DR. Many people in this thread want zero public access on their private course. Comparing my house, which I own, to a monthly fee at a club for hundreds of people. I should give up my house for an hour for $20.

 

If public is allowed for an hour on Tuesday then the club pro will lose his job and if mr club member gets pushed he gets upset and the staff knows he’s a doosh anyway so they call him charming.

 

Meanwhile I’m in the camp of I don’t care if the public uses my facility while some think it’s Uber intrusive. My initiation apparently is poppycock compared to BNGL’s initiation because he has 2 courses well near 400k to join.

 

And I can never get a prime Saturday time because Klem Kididdlehopper and his merry band of men have had the standing times on Saturday because that’s the way it is

 

We are dealing with a lot of stuff.

[duffer987]

 

And I can never get a prime Saturday time because Klem Kididdlehopper and his merry band of men have had the standing times on Saturday because that's the way it is

 

 

The irony here is outstanding.

So it's terribly unbecoming of the members to complain about the club opening up some of the teesheet to outside groups, but it's totally cool to speak dismissively of fellow club members because your nose is out of joint over an inability to get Sat morning teetimes?

 

It's almost as if you think being a member 'entitles' you to be able to play at certain times and when you cannot you see this as a problem. Interesting.

[TadWPJ]

This thread is great, thank you!

[raynorfan1]

After considering the perspectives on the previous four pages, my views have changed a little bit... in both directions.

 

On the one hand, I'm pretty content to have the club be open to limited public play in the form of charity events (of which we host maybe 3 or 4 a year). I'm also very happy to have members offer accompanied rounds either in charitable auctions or for business and social purposed. Hosting guests on the course is a good use of the asset. I would also like it if the club offered - in the Muirfield model - a limited number of times on Tuesdays (or other specific timeframe) to the public. Beyond the revenue created (which would be peanuts, in the scheme of things), I think the openness would benefit the game, and would be worth it from that perspective.

 

What I would be opposed to is regular public access / play, including 'unaccompanied' reciprocal play. The club is like a second home to me, and partly so precisely because it is not open to the public. I can let my kids (who are both <10 years old) roam around without a moment of concern for them. If they misbehave...another parent/friend/etc. will set them straight. I can leave the keys in the car; I can leave five boxes of new ProV's in my locker (which doesn't lock); I can take a nap on the couch when I'm tired.

 

The club - to me - is a respite from public life. It's a big playground where I can be at home and get away from it all. So, while I understand the desire of outsiders to play the course and I'd love to accommodate it in a reasonable way, there needs to be a way to do it that doesn't blow up what I love about the place. Which is largely that it is not open to the world at large.

[callawayjay]

 

And I can never get a prime Saturday time because Klem Kididdlehopper and his merry band of men have had the standing times on Saturday because that's the way it is

 

 

The irony here is outstanding.

So it's terribly unbecoming of the members to complain about the club opening up some of the teesheet to outside groups, but it's totally cool to speak dismissively of fellow club members because your nose is out of joint over an inability to get Sat morning teetimes?

 

It's almost as if you think being a member 'entitles' you to be able to play at certain times and when you cannot you see this as a problem. Interesting.

 

Not trying for irony. I’m merely pointing out at my club how entitled a group is every single day. (Not just Saturday). The good news is they rarely show for their weekday times which is perfect for me since I work evenings. I don’t care who uses my club or how they use it. I say many things for comedic shock value. Again. Pls. Lighten up.

[nix]

If a course is truly private and allows zero public access, they should have to pay the actual property tax rate for their private property.

[nix]

After considering the perspectives on the previous four pages, my views have changed a little bit... in both directions.

 

On the one hand, I'm pretty content to have the club be open to limited public play in the form of charity events (of which we host maybe 3 or 4 a year). I'm also very happy to have members offer accompanied rounds either in charitable auctions or for business and social purposed. Hosting guests on the course is a good use of the asset. I would also like it if the club offered - in the Muirfield model - a limited number of times on Tuesdays (or other specific timeframe) to the public. Beyond the revenue created (which would be peanuts, in the scheme of things), I think the openness would benefit the game, and would be worth it from that perspective.

 

What I would be opposed to is regular public access / play, including 'unaccompanied' reciprocal play. The club is like a second home to me, and partly so precisely because it is not open to the public. I can let my kids (who are both <10 years old) roam around without a moment of concern for them. If they misbehave...another parent/friend/etc. will set them straight. I can leave the keys in the car; I can leave five boxes of new ProV's in my locker (which doesn't lock); I can take a nap on the couch when I'm tired.

 

The club - to me - is a respite from public life. It's a big playground where I can be at home and get away from it all. So, while I understand the desire of outsiders to play the course and I'd love to accommodate it in a reasonable way, there needs to be a way to do it that doesn't blow up what I love about the place. Which is largely that it is not open to the world at large.

 

1-2 days a month where anyone could get a tee-time seems to be a good middle-ground to me. Charge an expensive but not outrageous amount for the tee times based on the desirability of the course and it's all good.

[raynorfan1]

If a course is truly private and allows zero public access, they should have to pay the actual property tax rate for their private property.

 

I think this is one of the bigger misnomers in politics / golf. Our club pays full freight on property tax.

 

We don't generate as much property tax for the Town as we would if the land was fully developed (i.e. housing tracts)...but we also don't use town services in the same way (no kids to go to school, very little police/fire burden, no trash collection, etc.).

 

1-2 days a month where anyone could get a tee-time seems to be a good middle-ground to me. Charge an expensive but not outrageous amount for the tee times based on the desirability of the course and it's all good.

 

The idea of a "not outrageous" amount is tough for me. Our "average" member pays north of $1,000 per round...so who gets to define 'outrageous'?

[duffer987]

1-2 days a month where anyone could get a tee-time seems to be a good middle-ground to me. Charge an expensive but not outrageous amount for the tee times based on the desirability of the course and it's all good.

 

The idea of a "not outrageous" amount is tough for me. Our "average" member pays north of $1,000 per round...so who gets to define 'outrageous'?

That's it. I don't think there should even be any need to qualify or justify the greenfee. Slap a number on it and off you go.

The Country Club is going to have a different fee than Podunk GC. If someone then whinges about the guest fee, after whinging about not having any access at all... well there's just no pleasing some.

[callawayjay]

If a course is truly private and allows zero public access, they should have to pay the actual property tax rate for their private property.

 

I agree with this. But they don’t. I get to pay it with my mortgage!

[callawayjay]

If a course is truly private and allows zero public access, they should have to pay the actual property tax rate for their private property.

 

I think this is one of the bigger misnomers in politics / golf. Our club pays full freight on property tax.

 

We don't generate as much property tax for the Town as we would if the land was fully developed (i.e. housing tracts)...but we also don't use town services in the same way (no kids to go to school, very little police/fire burden, no trash collection, etc.).

 

1-2 days a month where anyone could get a tee-time seems to be a good middle-ground to me. Charge an expensive but not outrageous amount for the tee times based on the desirability of the course and it's all good.

 

The idea of a "not outrageous" amount is tough for me. Our "average" member pays north of $1,000 per round...so who gets to define 'outrageous'?

 

And if I have no kids I still pay taxes for the schools. Hilarious that you think because a country club has no kids for school they should get a break.

[Shilgy]

$590 + carts and incidentals a month

$45k

 

I don’t play weekend days. 3 rounds per week. Late afternoon weekends and weekdays. The difficulties of getting a weekend prime time tee time is laughable. The same guys the same time every week. Not my thing. So they have MORE entitlement because they have been there longer?

 

Their collective heads would explode if Callaway jay had the 845am Saturday tee time.

A few posts ago you mentioned a $2400 revenue for a club if they would let outside play for an hour. Sounds great! Right? At your open club you have members that play rarely. Maybe once or twice a month, if that. Every club has members like that. So when said member realizes he does not need to pay dues to play there he quits the club and pays your imaginary rate occasionally. To get that $2400 you just lost $7080 in dues plus food and drink spending from that member.

 

Still sound like a good idea?

[TadWPJ]

If a course is truly private and allows zero public access, they should have to pay the actual property tax rate for their private property.

 

I think this is one of the bigger misnomers in politics / golf. Our club pays full freight on property tax.

 

We don't generate as much property tax for the Town as we would if the land was fully developed (i.e. housing tracts)...but we also don't use town services in the same way (no kids to go to school, very little police/fire burden, no trash collection, etc.).

 

1-2 days a month where anyone could get a tee-time seems to be a good middle-ground to me. Charge an expensive but not outrageous amount for the tee times based on the desirability of the course and it's all good.

 

The idea of a "not outrageous" amount is tough for me. Our "average" member pays north of $1,000 per round...so who gets to define 'outrageous'?

 

And if I have no kids I still pay taxes for the schools. Hilarious that you think because a country club has no kids for school they should get a break.

 

Private clubs pay property taxes. What break are they getting?

[raynorfan1]

And if I have no kids I still pay taxes for the schools. Hilarious that you think because a country club has no kids for school they should get a break.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear. In no way do I think they should get a break. But I think the value of the property should (and typically does) reflect the value of its current use.

 

We pay the fully assessed commercial rates on the property, and I don't think the assessment is artificially low.

[callawayjay]

$590 + carts and incidentals a month

$45k

 

I don’t play weekend days. 3 rounds per week. Late afternoon weekends and weekdays. The difficulties of getting a weekend prime time tee time is laughable. The same guys the same time every week. Not my thing. So they have MORE entitlement because they have been there longer?

 

Their collective heads would explode if Callaway jay had the 845am Saturday tee time.

A few posts ago you mentioned a $2400 revenue for a club if they would let outside play for an hour. Sounds great! Right? At your open club you have members that play rarely. Maybe once or twice a month, if that. Every club has members like that. So when said member realizes he does not need to pay dues to play there he quits the club and pays your imaginary rate occasionally. To get that $2400 you just lost $7080 in dues plus food and drink spending from that member.

 

Still sound like a good idea?

 

That’s unrealistic. As is the $2400 vs $7k. If the tee sheet is usually open from 1-3 on a Thursday you’re getting $0 because the members have paid. But they aren’t there at that time to rack up carts, food and beverage. So that 2 hour window you’re just getting the membership dues (that are already billed) while the course sits open. You’re assuming the guy that plays 2x a month will be upset because he could just quit his membership and take advantage of that time when it’s horribly inconvenient for him unless he’s making a point like you describe.

 

And perhaps that extra traffic creates one new member that is really into golf and would love to play 6x a week and wants access without hassle, hypothetically

[burnsniper]

Most private courses generally accept limited outside play from members of other private courses even when they have a stated no reciprocity policy (like my course does). Fact is that these outside fees help the club financially (most clubs - even big name clubs - struggle to keep the lights on in today's society). Clubs know that these outside players have been vetted/screened and are not hackers and often pay big bucks at their home club to be a member. Often the outside play is limited to (1) out of town members (ex. business travel) and (2) at non-peak times (Monday-Thursday). Host clubs also expect that the guest's club will host a member of their club if and when called upon.

 

Additionally, many clubs also rely on the Monday outing model to help bolster the club financially (same reasons above). For example, my parent's club has two Monday outings every month (whereas my club only has one per year for a First Tee fund aiser). Additionally, many well known/high end courses get additional financial support from outside play by hosting USGA/State GA/Invitational Golf tournaments.

[callawayjay]

If my example ruins members who rarely play I get the same consideration for it adding new members and revenue.

[callawayjay]

Too many private club members are instantly giving ideas like this the bird because it’s their club and it’s private and this is why they join and I don’t care about other people and that’s where my broad stroke of entitlement comes in the play. I can drive a Ferrari if I want to rent one for the day, I can buy a nice house if I have the money, I can never play a nice course that’s exclusive without somebody getting butt hurt over public place. I may cancel use of my club and I feel like I get my moneys worth and I have no problem with anything that they do to help club revenue.