Key Indicator For Increased Clubhead Speed -Dr Sasho MacKenzie

[Swingman420]

Good point Porsche,

The tone is a bit off. I am relating my personal experience in being an Also ran pro in another sport from which I literally trained from a young age.

In golf like most Adults I played when younger but at a certain age I decided to invest more time to get good. I studied mechanics etc etc etc.

Changed the swing style. Did I improve yes but it was constant practice. Too much time and effort for too little enjoyment.

I’ve been been there where I can’t wait to get up early at dawn to go practice. Practice is a joy for many.

There are many negatives however that are not often discussed like potential for injury. We all weigh the benefits etc.

I was convinced at around age 22 or 23 that mechanics were the way to improve in my sport. Trained a lot. At some point though a change happened and I realized I could change styles as much as I wanted almost and get pretty much the same results. I learned from competitive experience over time about being in the zone putting your all into process without care or fear. That’s what is fun that’s what brings true satisfaction not worrying about an elbow position or ground force but instead the tool.

In golf I realized I would never truly change my in the moment swing into something I preferred aesthetically. Obviously I improved but it became obvious I was repeating the same mistake of overemphasizing mechanics and body position over attention focus on club operation.

The industry in golf is this way. People buy into it because many have never had the luxury of being able to devote their life and be trained over time.

Where is this going?

I am simply suggesting to folks that maybe there is another way. It’s all being proved now. I think many middle aged rec golfers have trouble with all of this.

There’s a thread regarding mental aspect of improvement. Too many the mindlessness of what I am talking about is absolutely mental. Give up control to get control as Knutson put it.

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

Took me I dunno almost a decade to realize it’s about letting go more than holding on before.

Golf tried to sucker me into that but I’ve realized once you know how to swing a club no one cane ruin it except yourself.

It should be like walking or throwing a ball. Swing club walk to next shot,

But once the mind has been poisoned with all the clutter it has to be purged if you will.

Takes time but it does work just like training conventionally does.

I just get worked up when people say all this no no no. I know they haven’t ever been in a zone. For me sport and competition is so great. Like a vehicle into another state of mind when all that exists is the moment.

I just know from experience that the ultimate goal is to be beyond mechanics. Really practice is great but once you get the right call it whatever let’s say concept in mind it never goes away. Sure rust happens but golf should not be for recreational types now such a struggle.

Congrats on your improvement Porsche hard work always pays dividends.

I just get pissed because I e seen it all the time take a new golfer (iteach already said he does the opposite of this but). Before they do anything they have been info overloaded and their athletic ability cutoff by overreaching.

Overteaching is so rampant in golf. That’s where this went and I guess I am done now.

Thank you all for your time and back to the regular broadcast.

 

 

 

NOT TWO!

[Lefthook]

Swingman,

 

The implications of your point of view as I see it is that it is pointless to practice hitting balls. Period. Because it is pointless to hit balls without any other purpose than trying to hit different targets. Anybody can hit it well on the range, but it doesn't lead to better golf in my experience. Technique is a big part of it. The driving ranges of the world are stuffed with ball beaters who don't understand why they can't take their driving range result (where they hit 30 similar shots in a row) to the course (where each shot is different and several minutes apart).

 

But I've seen people improve substantially from just playing a lot of golf. They tend to not develop textbook style swings if they started out as adult, but many of them find something that is repeatable and reliable.

 

But if you want a mechanically good swing you also heed to work on the mechanics, imo.

[PorscheFan]

Congrats on your improvement Porsche hard work always pays dividends.

I just get pissed because I e seen it all the time take a new golfer (iteach already said he does the opposite of this but). Before they do anything they have been info overloaded and their athletic ability cutoff by overreaching.

Overteaching is so rampant in golf. That’s where this went and I guess I am done now.

Thank you all for your time and back to the regular broadcast.

 

A very eloquent explanation of your position. Thank you.

 

I believe it's possible to have both good and bad experiences with the same thing, based on application.

 

For me, looking at mechanics has simplified my game. I only ever drill one thing at a time. I think through the complexity and try to figure out if there's a simple application of the concept. If there's not I don't even go there because I know I won't be able to drill it. I find simple thoughts or notions to be powerful when learning. I think most people work that way.

 

When I have a club in my hand, I think about broad motions and weight shifts in very simple ways, vs. elbow positions, etc. that I personally find difficult to feel. The added benefit of thinking about movement and weight shift is that it stopped me thinking about positions that I was told were 'ideal' but nobody actually realized I couldn't physically perform. When I'm on the course it's simply target, balance, and tempo.

 

So, for me it's about simplicity and basic feels. I think that part of the industry is going that way. Instructors taking complex ideas and breaking them down into simple thoughts. For pressure shift Daisy-May Kenny apparently told Sandra Carlborg to 'crush that bug under her heel'. Some of the BodiTrak folks say 'crush the can with your foot'. I personally think about cracking a walnut shell, because it gives me a better idea that I need to apply a LOT of pressure.

 

Horses for courses. Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with this. I've no doubt it happens.

[Ghost of Snead]

I just know from experience that the ultimate goal is to be beyond mechanics. Really practice is great but once you get the right call it whatever let's say concept in mind it never goes away. Sure rust happens but golf should not be for recreational types now such a struggle.

 

If you care about improving, you can be beyond mechanics only if you have sound mechanics. Any one can "swing the club".

[WILDTHING]

Imho, I really like learning the 'what and why' so I can decide whether an 'opinion' (and there are a countless number) has enough evidence to quell any contradictions/criticisms.

 

I do think a perception of the kinetics of the golf swing could be useful for many golfers that I frequently see on the range (Porsche Fan mentioned some of the types) where they have no perception on how clubhead speed is generated. Personally , I use similar concept/philosophy that Swingman has posted (ie. Shawn Clement) but I find it a perfect mix to also understand some of the 'kinetics/biomechanics/anatomy' . Therefore , when some well intended person offers me some tips on improving my swing, I have a better idea whether that advice is flawed or not.

 

With regards Sasho's video about creating ground forces at club vertical which has some relationship with clubhead speed (for front foot golfers only) , I think it has already been explained 'intuitively' in a video by Shawn Clement (I need to find and insert it in this post) . It sort of proves that we are 'already wired' to do this kinetic action if we have focus on the intended outcome. I am saying that we are already capable to manage and use inertial forces and 'parametric acceleration' subconsciously in the golf swing but an understanding of the 'kinetics/biomechancs/anatomy' can also help avoid any lingering doubts.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLbXFlkA7z0

 

 

PS. So if you look at what SC (and all of us) do when we jump onto a step , we are intuitively changing the path of the COG of our arms to create maximum speed (and momentum) to make our jump more efficient. If we plotted the path of our shoulder sockets (in this case it would be equivalent to the hand path in a golf swing) and the path of the arms COG, you will probably see a nice 'parametric acceleration' .

[johnrobison]

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

 

What does that mean?

 

As FWP said, the club won't swing itself. A good swing isn't something that's just happening in space until the golfer comes along. The club isn't going anywhere until you "disturb" it.

[PorscheFan]

Imho, I really like learning the 'what and why' so I can decide whether an 'opinion' (and there are a countless number) has enough evidence to quell any contradictions/criticisms.

 

I do think a perception of the kinetics of the golf swing could be useful for many golfers that I frequently see on the range (Porsche Fan mentioned some of the types) where they have no perception on how clubhead speed is generated. Personally , I use similar concept/philosophy that Swingman has posted (ie. Shawn Clement) but I find it a perfect mix to also understand some of the 'kinetics/biomechanics/anatomy' . Therefore , when some well intended person offers me some tips on improving my swing, I have a better idea whether that advice is flawed or not.

 

With regards Sasho's video about creating ground forces at club vertical which has some relationship with clubhead speed (for front foot golfers only) , I think it has already been explained 'intuitively' in a video by Shawn Clement (I need to find and insert it in this post) . It sort of proves that we are 'already wired' to do this kinetic action if we have focus on the intended outcome. I am saying that we are already capable to manage and use inertial forces and 'parametric acceleration' subconsciously in the golf swing but an understanding of the 'kinetics/biomechancs/anatomy' can also help avoid any lingering doubts.

 

PS. So if you look at what SC (and all of us) do when we jump onto a step , we are intuitively changing the path of the COG of our arms to create maximum speed (and momentum) to make our jump more efficient. If we plotted the path of our shoulder sockets (in this case it would be equivalent to the hand path in a golf swing) and the path of the arms COG, you will probably see a nice 'parametric acceleration' .

 

Yep, I really don't think these approaches to learning are separate. It's a delivery style... Shawn provides a simple task-based approach to swinging a golf club. There are mechanics in there, but he hides the complexity from the user to simplify and aid learning. I love what Shawn does. I personally don't have issues being exposed to the complexity and - as you point out - having a sound framework from which interpret anything I'm being told, hence I have no concerns that digging into topics like this on a golf forum will somehow hurt my swing.

 

I give it 5 years for the weight vs. pressure concept to be fully absorbed and understood. Just take something as simple as 'you're hanging back (weight)' vs. 'drive pressure into the lead foot to brace (pressure)'. In the meantime it will be mayhem as golfers will be exposed to much advice that either appears contradictory, or is served up incorrectly.

 

This is one area where I believe the game has really moved on. Weight is such a poor way to describe a dynamic, flowing movement where you can actually produce more force than your bodyweight.

[WILDTHING]

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

 

What does that mean?

 

As FWP said, the club won't swing itself. A good swing isn't something that's just happening in space until the golfer comes along. The club isn't going anywhere until you "disturb" it.

 

For a driver swing where there is forward bend in the shaft at some point after 'Release' , where the inertial forces of the club are such that the hands are preventing release and can't keep up with the clubhead . The club is 'to all intents and purposes' pulling the hands through to impact but there is still centripetal pull happening through the arms during this whole process. Imho, the outcome of your golf swing is dictated by what you've already done earlier in the swing , maybe during transition or early downswing (maybe even earlier during the takeaway and backswing). If you've performed the swing efficiently in balance without strain and struck the sweetspot it should 'feel' effortless through your hands. I suspect it might be futile to try and adjust your swing after the release phase because there just isn't enough time to influence anything.

[Swingman420]

Wild weirdness,

I do not endorse Clement.

that is all.

 

On the club not swinging itself, of course. However once you give the clubhead momentum it’s best not to disrupt it that would be a hitch in a swing.

Allow mean let body balance. Then you start to let go. You let go of the beliefs that prevent the use of fully focused attention.

[mudge]

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

 

What does that mean?

 

As FWP said, the club won't swing itself. A good swing isn't something that's just happening in space until the golfer comes along. The club isn't going anywhere until you "disturb" it.

 

For a driver swing where there is forward bend in the shaft at some point after 'Release' , where the inertial forces of the club are such that the hands are preventing release and can't keep up with the clubhead . The club is 'to all intents and purposes' pulling the hands through to impact but there is still centripetal pull happening through the arms during this whole process. Imho, the outcome of your golf swing is dictated by what you've already done earlier in the swing , maybe during transition or early downswing (maybe even earlier during the takeaway and backswing). If you've performed the swing efficiently in balance without strain and struck the sweetspot it should 'feel' effortless through your hands. I suspect it might be futile to try and adjust your swing after the release phase because there just isn't enough time to influence anything.

 

There is no magic in the downswing, and the clubhead is not powering itself or pulling itself. If you let go of the club in the middle of the downswing, it will stop accelerating. All the force being provided to the club that accelerates it is through the hands.

[WILDTHING]

Wild weirdness,

I do not endorse Clement.

that is all.

 

On the club not swinging itself, of course. However once you give the clubhead momentum it's best not to disrupt it that would be a hitch in a swing.

Allow mean let body balance. Then you start to let go. You let go of the beliefs that prevent the use of fully focused attention.

 

I am suspecting you are more inclined to endorse 'Ernest Jones' and 'swing the clubhead' or is this just a personal concept of your own? Why don't you endorse SC? He uses scientifically proven research on external focus to assist learning the golf swing (closer to Ernest Jones, Wild Bill Mehlhorn and Manuel De La Torres)?

[Silky]

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

 

What does that mean?

 

As FWP said, the club won't swing itself. A good swing isn't something that's just happening in space until the golfer comes along. The club isn't going anywhere until you "disturb" it.

 

For a driver swing where there is forward bend in the shaft at some point after 'Release' , where the inertial forces of the club are such that the hands are preventing release and can't keep up with the clubhead . The club is 'to all intents and purposes' pulling the hands through to impact but there is still centripetal pull happening through the arms during this whole process. Imho, the outcome of your golf swing is dictated by what you've already done earlier in the swing , maybe during transition or early downswing (maybe even earlier during the takeaway and backswing). If you've performed the swing efficiently in balance without strain and struck the sweetspot it should 'feel' effortless through your hands. I suspect it might be futile to try and adjust your swing after the release phase because there just isn't enough time to influence anything.

 

Wild,

IMOP, the term "release" as used in golf swing is not the same as the "release" when you throw things. When we throw a Frisbee, "release" should be when the Frisbee leaves our hand and goes ballistic - flying and spinning. On the contrary, "release" in a golf swing as define from P6 through impact at P7 is when we still transfer energy and momentum to the club, especially most of the angular momentum of the club is generated during "release" by the centripetal force. There should be a moment when the club goes ballistic but is kept from flying away being held by the hands. That moment should be around impact, right before or right after.

The forward bending of the shaft as seen before impact is from the component of the centripetal force along the shaft with the COM of the clubhead being offset from the shaft - not from the clubhead trying to fly away by itself.

[WILDTHING]

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

 

What does that mean?

 

As FWP said, the club won't swing itself. A good swing isn't something that's just happening in space until the golfer comes along. The club isn't going anywhere until you "disturb" it.

 

For a driver swing where there is forward bend in the shaft at some point after 'Release' , where the inertial forces of the club are such that the hands are preventing release and can't keep up with the clubhead . The club is 'to all intents and purposes' pulling the hands through to impact but there is still centripetal pull happening through the arms during this whole process. Imho, the outcome of your golf swing is dictated by what you've already done earlier in the swing , maybe during transition or early downswing (maybe even earlier during the takeaway and backswing). If you've performed the swing efficiently in balance without strain and struck the sweetspot it should 'feel' effortless through your hands. I suspect it might be futile to try and adjust your swing after the release phase because there just isn't enough time to influence anything.

 

There is no magic in the downswing, and the clubhead is not powering itself or pulling itself. If you let go of the club in the middle of the downswing, it will stop accelerating. All the force being provided to the club that accelerates it is through the hands.

 

I think you have misunderstood my comment but yes, its not magic (it's actually physics) and the clubhead is not powering itself . Did I not say 'centripetal pull' via the arms still happening after forward bend of shaft sometime after release?

[WILDTHING]

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

 

What does that mean?

 

As FWP said, the club won't swing itself. A good swing isn't something that's just happening in space until the golfer comes along. The club isn't going anywhere until you "disturb" it.

 

For a driver swing where there is forward bend in the shaft at some point after 'Release' , where the inertial forces of the club are such that the hands are preventing release and can't keep up with the clubhead . The club is 'to all intents and purposes' pulling the hands through to impact but there is still centripetal pull happening through the arms during this whole process. Imho, the outcome of your golf swing is dictated by what you've already done earlier in the swing , maybe during transition or early downswing (maybe even earlier during the takeaway and backswing). If you've performed the swing efficiently in balance without strain and struck the sweetspot it should 'feel' effortless through your hands. I suspect it might be futile to try and adjust your swing after the release phase because there just isn't enough time to influence anything.

 

Wild,

IMOP, the term "release" as used in golf swing is not the same as the "release" when you throw things. When we throw a Frisbee, "release" should be when the Frisbee leaves our hand and goes ballistic - flying and spinning. On the contrary, "release" in a golf swing as define from P6 through impact at P7 is when we still transfer energy and momentum to the club, especially most of the angular momentum of the club is generated during "release" by the centripetal force. There should be a moment when the club goes ballistic but is kept from flying away being held by the hands. That moment should be around impact, right before or right after.

The forward bending of the shaft as seen before impact is from the component of the centripetal force along the shaft with the COM of the clubhead being offset from the shaft - not from the clubhead trying to fly away by itself.

 

We all seem to have various definitions of 'Release' . I think of release as the point when the angle between lead arm and clubshaft starts to increase because of 'inertial forces'

 

The physics regarding the forward shaft bend is explained here although I did mention it in some other threads a few times.

 

http://tutelman.com/...ing/handhit.php

 

 

 

Bent forward - By the same reasoning, a forward shaft bend shows a negative, or retarding, wrist torque. Again, the force applied by the shaft is in the direction to straighten the shaft. The force applied to the clubhead by a forward-bending shaft is slowing the release of the clubhead.

 

A little bit of forward bend in the vicinity of impact may be due to the clubhead's center of gravity. But that will seldom be as much as an inch of bend, and most swings have a lot more forward bend than that coming into impact.

 

 

Here centrifugal force has taken over, and is trying to uncock the wrists. Lee claims to be doing a right-hand push at this point, but the shaft bend clearly indicates that the hands are actually

opposing

the uncocking, not causing it. (

In all likelihood, this picture is not affected by focal plane distortion. It reflects what the shaft is actually doing.

)

 

 

 

 

 

 

At this point, the ball is gone. With most swings I've observed, the shaft would be bent backward, at least near the tip, in reaction to impact with the ball. The fact that Lee's shaft is still bent well forward suggests that the clubhead came into impact bent well forward -- with the clubhead's considerable momentum still pulling the hands through -- and impact caused only partial recovery.

(The forward shaft bend in this picture may well be exaggerated or even caused by focal plane distortion.)

 

 

In fact, a leading bend at impact says that the clubhead is pulling the hands through, so the hands must be exerting torque that resists the release of the club.

[Silky]

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

 

What does that mean?

 

As FWP said, the club won't swing itself. A good swing isn't something that's just happening in space until the golfer comes along. The club isn't going anywhere until you "disturb" it.

 

For a driver swing where there is forward bend in the shaft at some point after 'Release' , where the inertial forces of the club are such that the hands are preventing release and can't keep up with the clubhead . The club is 'to all intents and purposes' pulling the hands through to impact but there is still centripetal pull happening through the arms during this whole process. Imho, the outcome of your golf swing is dictated by what you've already done earlier in the swing , maybe during transition or early downswing (maybe even earlier during the takeaway and backswing). If you've performed the swing efficiently in balance without strain and struck the sweetspot it should 'feel' effortless through your hands. I suspect it might be futile to try and adjust your swing after the release phase because there just isn't enough time to influence anything.

 

Wild,

IMOP, the term "release" as used in golf swing is not the same as the "release" when you throw things. When we throw a Frisbee, "release" should be when the Frisbee leaves our hand and goes ballistic - flying and spinning. On the contrary, "release" in a golf swing as define from P6 through impact at P7 is when we still transfer energy and momentum to the club, especially most of the angular momentum of the club is generated during "release" by the centripetal force. There should be a moment when the club goes ballistic but is kept from flying away being held by the hands. That moment should be around impact, right before or right after.

The forward bending of the shaft as seen before impact is from the component of the centripetal force along the shaft with the COM of the clubhead being offset from the shaft - not from the clubhead trying to fly away by itself.

 

We all seem to have various definitions of 'Release' . I think of release as the point when the angle between lead arm and clubshaft starts to increase because of 'inertial forces'

 

The physics regarding the forward shaft bend is explained here although I did mention it in some other threads a few times.

 

http://tutelman.com/...ing/handhit.php

 

 

 

Bent forward - By the same reasoning, a forward shaft bend shows a negative, or retarding, wrist torque. Again, the force applied by the shaft is in the direction to straighten the shaft. The force applied to the clubhead by a forward-bending shaft is slowing the release of the clubhead.

 

A little bit of forward bend in the vicinity of impact may be due to the clubhead's center of gravity. But that will seldom be as much as an inch of bend, and most swings have a lot more forward bend than that coming into impact.

 

 

Here centrifugal force has taken over, and is trying to uncock the wrists. Lee claims to be doing a right-hand push at this point, but the shaft bend clearly indicates that the hands are actually

opposing

the uncocking, not causing it. (

In all likelihood, this picture is not affected by focal plane distortion. It reflects what the shaft is actually doing.

)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At this point, the ball is gone. With most swings I've observed, the shaft would be bent backward, at least near the tip, in reaction to impact with the ball. The fact that Lee's shaft is still bent well forward suggests that the clubhead came into impact bent well forward -- with the clubhead's considerable momentum still pulling the hands through -- and impact caused only partial recovery.

(The forward shaft bend in this picture may well be exaggerated or even caused by focal plane distortion.)

 

 

In fact, a leading bend at impact says that the clubhead is pulling the hands through, so the hands must be exerting torque that resists the release of the club.

 

 

I have great respect for Tutelman and have benefited from his works, but I disagree with him on this.

[Swingman420]

I just know from experience that the ultimate goal is to be beyond mechanics. Really practice is great but once you get the right call it whatever let's say concept in mind it never goes away. Sure rust happens but golf should not be for recreational types now such a struggle.

 

If you care about improving, you can be beyond mechanics only if you have sound mechanics. Any one can "swing the club".

 

If the club is swinging right the mechanics are fine.

That’s kinda the point. You can work this 2 ways club end or body end.

[ferrispgm]

Just a thought....but wouldn't creating a boatload of forces be worthless unless you have the body/ability to effectively use them? You can put a 700hp engine in a car but if the supporting elements are there, the car is effectively useless and cant be controlled.

[MPStrat]

The swing works very very well if we execute it without disturbing it and allow things to happen that most try to force or train.

 

What does that mean?

 

As FWP said, the club won't swing itself. A good swing isn't something that's just happening in space until the golfer comes along. The club isn't going anywhere until you "disturb" it.

 

For a driver swing where there is forward bend in the shaft at some point after 'Release' , where the inertial forces of the club are such that the hands are preventing release and can't keep up with the clubhead . The club is 'to all intents and purposes' pulling the hands through to impact but there is still centripetal pull happening through the arms during this whole process. Imho, the outcome of your golf swing is dictated by what you've already done earlier in the swing , maybe during transition or early downswing (maybe even earlier during the takeaway and backswing). If you've performed the swing efficiently in balance without strain and struck the sweetspot it should 'feel' effortless through your hands. I suspect it might be futile to try and adjust your swing after the release phase because there just isn't enough time to influence anything.

 

Wild,

IMOP, the term "release" as used in golf swing is not the same as the "release" when you throw things. When we throw a Frisbee, "release" should be when the Frisbee leaves our hand and goes ballistic - flying and spinning. On the contrary, "release" in a golf swing as define from P6 through impact at P7 is when we still transfer energy and momentum to the club, especially most of the angular momentum of the club is generated during "release" by the centripetal force. There should be a moment when the club goes ballistic but is kept from flying away being held by the hands. That moment should be around impact, right before or right after.

The forward bending of the shaft as seen before impact is from the component of the centripetal force along the shaft with the COM of the clubhead being offset from the shaft - not from the clubhead trying to fly away by itself.

 

We all seem to have various definitions of 'Release' . I think of release as the point when the angle between lead arm and clubshaft starts to increase because of 'inertial forces'

 

The physics regarding the forward shaft bend is explained here although I did mention it in some other threads a few times.

 

http://tutelman.com/...ing/handhit.php

 

 

 

Bent forward - By the same reasoning, a forward shaft bend shows a negative, or retarding, wrist torque. Again, the force applied by the shaft is in the direction to straighten the shaft. The force applied to the clubhead by a forward-bending shaft is slowing the release of the clubhead.

 

A little bit of forward bend in the vicinity of impact may be due to the clubhead's center of gravity. But that will seldom be as much as an inch of bend, and most swings have a lot more forward bend than that coming into impact.

 

 

Here centrifugal force has taken over, and is trying to uncock the wrists. Lee claims to be doing a right-hand push at this point, but the shaft bend clearly indicates that the hands are actually

opposing

the uncocking, not causing it. (

In all likelihood, this picture is not affected by focal plane distortion. It reflects what the shaft is actually doing.

)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At this point, the ball is gone. With most swings I've observed, the shaft would be bent backward, at least near the tip, in reaction to impact with the ball. The fact that Lee's shaft is still bent well forward suggests that the clubhead came into impact bent well forward -- with the clubhead's considerable momentum still pulling the hands through -- and impact caused only partial recovery.

(The forward shaft bend in this picture may well be exaggerated or even caused by focal plane distortion.)

 

 

In fact, a leading bend at impact says that the clubhead is pulling the hands through, so the hands must be exerting torque that resists the release of the club.

 

 

 

That shaft bend is 100% camera

[chrisgilly09]

When i said months ago that instruction would become more uniform/streamlined and teachers would have to differentiate through marketing, this is what i mean. Increasingly looking like pressure mats/systems are way more beneficial than radars for improvement

 

Everyone learns differently but good instructors are coming to the same conclusions in the end, ex: my wanting to straighten my front leg in the ds forced me to load the leg harder and earlier, speed went up and early extension went down. Pivot went from looking like tom lehman to feeling like justin thomas Others need to feel the loading more but results end up the same. This is exciting stuff to get into

[GungHoGolf]

I really wish there was an "Dislike" button here that would throttle a poster for X hours after X dislikes.

[PorscheFan]

Just a thought....but wouldn't creating a boatload of forces be worthless unless you have the body/ability to effectively use them? You can put a 700hp engine in a car but if the supporting elements are there, the car is effectively useless and cant be controlled.

 

The SSG guys argue this very thing. The theory goes that the non-dominant swings are required to improve the 'brakes' on the dominant side, and the brain won't let the body swing faster than it thinks it can decelerate the movement at the other end. So, the non-dominant swings are intended to both reduce the risk of injury and aid in speed.

 

One of the lead leg ground force proponents (think it was Symes) argues that the posting of the lead leg actually aids hip deceleration and thus control.

[airjammer]

Just a thought....but wouldn't creating a boatload of forces be worthless unless you have the body/ability to effectively use them? You can put a 700hp engine in a car but if the supporting elements are there, the car is effectively useless and cant be controlled.

 

If you have a big engine you better have big brakes!

 

As far as the human body goes I think the vast majority of time, if you can create it you probably have the ability to use it. You may not know how but your body really isn’t made to do anything that may not be able to handle it. I’m not sure what they say now but they use to say if you couldn’t touch your toes because not that your muscles weren’t flexible enough but rather you weren’t strong enough to go into that position without potential injury.

[jasonfish11]

Higher club speed guys create more ground forces, not more ground forces causes more club speed.

 

Thanks for bursting my bubble. I was just going to wear my old dive weight belt to add 20+ lbs of ground force. I expected to pick up 15 yards.

[johnrobison]

Wild weirdness,

I do not endorse Clement.

that is all.

 

On the club not swinging itself, of course. However once you give the clubhead momentum it's best not to disrupt it that would be a hitch in a swing.

Allow mean let body balance. Then you start to let go. You let go of the beliefs that prevent the use of fully focused attention.

It doesn't work like that. It's not like you're shooting it from a canon once you hit the top of the backswing. You have to continue to apply force to the club.

[Mono]

Hey OIKOS

if you can learn and then rehearse and then remember and then implement in real time perfectly timed force vector control related to a swinging object with conscious thought wiithout paying attention to the club you are the most talented person in the world.

I think however your primary talent is Internet golf forum troll responses which is what it is. We all have our talents in life...Some golf, some troll internet. Good for you.

 

To be fair that's exactly what I did. I had been to Kwon and had terribly timed force vectors. Fixed them and my peaks are very high and well timed.

 

[media=]

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FWP - thanks for this, appreciate the personal nature of this, most guys only post their swings when they are looking for tips!

all that said, how do we do this? I struggle getting left and wt/ pressure to the left, and wind up on with my weight back

i've been going to a SnT instructor and making a lot of progress, that said i feel like the right leg straightening in the backswing part of SnT gets

me into the position that in your video of your old swing, any thoughts that helped would be much appeciated, Thx!

[Swingman420]

Wild weirdness,

I do not endorse Clement.

that is all.

 

On the club not swinging itself, of course. However once you give the clubhead momentum it's best not to disrupt it that would be a hitch in a swing.

Allow mean let body balance. Then you start to let go. You let go of the beliefs that prevent the use of fully focused attention.

It doesn't work like that. It's not like you're shooting it from a canon once you hit the top of the backswing. You have to continue to apply force to the club.

 

From the top you have stored energy even if you stop it up there. The amount of force input to clubhead speed in a swinging motion is the most efficient.

The more efficient you are the better.

The golf club is long with a weighted end. A proper swing uses momentum. The club is a powerful tool but it’s proper use is needed.

I couldn’t care less what ground force I create I care about swinging correctly.

Like jumping rope the hands swing the rope and the jumping is timed to the hands.

Think how difficult it would be to reverse the procedure.

No one should try to emulate JT.

He’s an otherworldly talent.

It’s like saying Ayrton Senna drove his car 120 through a corner so you should too

 

[WILDTHING]

I have great respect for Tutelman and have benefited from his works, but I disagree with him on this.

 

He has used data from TRUE TEMPER research showing that forward bend is prevalent in most golf driver swings (and long clubs) plus Tom Wishon states the same (this doesn't apply to the short irons ). So which part of the physics do you disagree with?

[WILDTHING]

That shaft bend is 100% camera

 

But here is the research data from TRUE TEMPER proving forward bend.

 

Here is a scatter plot for shaft bend at impact; it reflects the swings of nine PGA Tour pros from the 1990s. Impact always has leading and toe-down bend. Moreover, it is leading by more than can be explained just from centrifugal bending -- that is, radial acceleration pulling on the center of gravity (CG) of the clubhead. There is bending due to dynamic forces of the swing.

• Tom Wishon has been the Chief Technical Officer of Golfsmith, and now has his own golf club component company. His company is recognized as an innovator, and he is the world's foremost advocate of custom fitted golf clubs. In his book "Common Sense Clubfitting" (chapter five on shaft fitting), he writes:
   
  "The condition of the shaft being slightly bent backward with the head lagging behind the shaft is very rare in the game. This is because the swing skill plus strength that is required to maintain radial acceleration and the wrist-c0ck angle until very late in the downswing is such that very, very, VERY few golfers can do this. Far more common are the conditions in which the shaft arrives at impact either straight or slightly bent/curved forward with the head in front of the forward curve of the shaft."
  
• 
  
• In other words, it takes more athletic ability than almost anybody possesses to apply a positive wrist torque late enough in the swing to be helpful. (If I may add my own opinion, not Wishon's words: It isn't just strength; it's also speed. Late in the swing, centrifugal force is whipping the clubhead toward impact. The wrist-c0ck angle is being dragged out very fast, so it takes a lot of hand speed to even keep up, much less help it along.) One other thing he mentions: we can tell if the wrist torque is negative or positive on the basis of shaft bend. That is important, and we will come back to it later.
  
• 
  

[johnrobison]

Wild weirdness,

I do not endorse Clement.

that is all.

 

On the club not swinging itself, of course. However once you give the clubhead momentum it's best not to disrupt it that would be a hitch in a swing.

Allow mean let body balance. Then you start to let go. You let go of the beliefs that prevent the use of fully focused attention.

It doesn't work like that. It's not like you're shooting it from a canon once you hit the top of the backswing. You have to continue to apply force to the club.

 

From the top you have stored energy even if you stop it up there. The amount of force input to clubhead speed in a swinging motion is the most efficient.

The more efficient you are the better.

The golf club is long with a weighted end. A proper swing uses momentum. The club is a powerful tool but it's proper use is needed.

I couldn't care less what ground force I create I care about swinging correctly.

Like jumping rope the hands swing the rope and the jumping is timed to the hands.

Think how difficult it would be to reverse the procedure.

No one should try to emulate JT.

He's an otherworldly talent.

It's like saying Ayrton Senna drove his car 120 through a corner so you should too

A proper swing CREATES momentum. And the use of ground force is one of the variables in that.

[Swingman420]

Jrob,

Because it’s is a component does it require attention? The answer is no. If you swing faster and faster those forces will be there of necessity. They will happen as a result of the proper swing of the clubhead. The error as I see it would be placing conscious attention on them because that is a lessening of attention you can focus on the important thing which is the club.

Let’s say you have an attention value of 100. It can absolutely be 100 percent on the club and 0 percent on ground forces or your body outside of the hands. Where people get into trouble is being distracted from the task (swing clubhead) by all this jargon and misguided attempt at instruction and overanalysis on pictures of swing positions etc.

The average golfer is so lost and confused by the game that they are no longer even focused on what the clubhead is doing. They are busy jumping or trying to create a shoulder plane or rotate the torso or get to the left side or keep a flat left wrist etc. This is opposite to how we operate in the physical sense as humans.

If I go to the fridge for a beer do I need to worry about ground forces or balance? Do I need to consciously remember to make my heart beat?

One reason swing thoughts work for a limited time then fail for many is that hey get so into the swing thought that the conscious attention is all there so the rest of the body works naturally via the subconscious/unconscious. So people go from swing thought to swing thought their whole career. That’s fine, I think Nicklaus alluded to this idea before.

As for myself I don’t wanna be trapped by that. It’s not enjoyable the constant state of flux and even causes anxiety for some “will I have today what I had yesterday” and that. Losing it then searching trying other options wondering what’s the fault.

Jones wrote that instead of looking for problems which is a negative approach golfers should focus on what they need to do to swing well and work on that.

Golfers get lost in a never ending repetitive negative cycle when they allow their attention to waver from it needs to be on.

That’s the true mental challenge of golf. Avoiding interference. That’s allowing your attention to wander from the task. In fact the task is simple and the challenge is to keep it that way.

Many suffer from paralysis by analysis.

Grf is a buzz term, when I was young it was a power triangle, none of these points or analysis or any of this information is the task.

Information can be 100 percent accurate but it’s not the task.

Only proper focus on the task creates proper motion. Everything else constitutes a distracted mindset which means divided attention and a confused computer (brain)

Your body naturally works to support the intent of the hands with the tool. You can’t stop that. Rec golfers can’t see the forest through the trees, they mentally misstep from the get go by their mistaken perspective on the deal and most sadly never find the way out.

Swinging a club is simple. Look at DJ. “The main thing to do when hitting a cut is to make sure you cut it”

Ever heard the term dumb jock? Why don’t we call it athletic genius?