Key Indicator For Increased Clubhead Speed -Dr Sasho MacKenzie

[iteachgolf]

Jrob,

Because it’s is a component does it require attention? The answer is no. If you swing faster and faster those forces will be there of necessity. They will happen as a result of the proper swing of the clubhead. The error as I see it would be placing conscious attention on them because that is a lessening of attention you can focus on the important thing which is the club.

Let’s say you have an attention value of 100. It can absolutely be 100 percent on the club and 0 percent on ground forces or your body outside of the hands. Where people get into trouble is being distracted from the task (swing clubhead) by all this jargon and misguided attempt at instruction and overanalysis on pictures of swing positions etc.

The average golfer is so lost and confused by the game that they are no longer even focused on what the clubhead is doing. They are busy jumping or trying to create a shoulder plane or rotate the torso or get to the left side or keep a flat left wrist etc. This is opposite to how we operate in the physical sense as humans.

If I go to the fridge for a beer do I need to worry about ground forces or balance? Do I need to consciously remember to make my heart beat?

One reason swing thoughts work for a limited time then fail for many is that hey get so into the swing thought that the conscious attention is all there so the rest of the body works naturally via the subconscious/unconscious. So people go from swing thought to swing thought their whole career. That’s fine, I think Nicklaus alluded to this idea before.

As for myself I don’t wanna be trapped by that. It’s not enjoyable the constant state of flux and even causes anxiety for some “will I have today what I had yesterday” and that. Losing it then searching trying other options wondering what’s the fault.

Jones wrote that instead of looking for problems which is a negative approach golfers should focus on what they need to do to swing well and work on that.

Golfers get lost in a never ending repetitive negative cycle when they allow their attention to waver from it needs to be on.

That’s the true mental challenge of golf. Avoiding interference. That’s allowing your attention to wander from the task. In fact the task is simple and the challenge is to keep it that way.

Many suffer from paralysis by analysis.

Grf is a buzz term, when I was young it was a power triangle, none of these points or analysis or any of this information is the task.

Information can be 100 percent accurate but it’s not the task.

Only proper focus on the task creates proper motion. Everything else constitutes a distracted mindset which means divided attention and a confused computer (brain)

Your body naturally works to support the intent of the hands with the tool. You can’t stop that. Rec golfers can’t see the forest through the trees, they mentally misstep from the get go by their mistaken perspective on the deal and most sadly never find the way out.

Swinging a club is simple. Look at DJ. “The main thing to do when hitting a cut is to make sure you cut it”

Ever heard the term dumb jock? Why don’t we call it athletic genius?

 

What you don’t understand is that you can just “swing faster and faster”. Guys are trying to swing as fast as they can already. just today I had a guy who swings as hard as he can and has been using over speed training and his clubhead speed was 97mph. By using his lower body better to use the ground better he gained 10 mph in less than an hour.

[Krt22]

Im not sure why you guys keep responding to this guy when he obviously doesnt listen and is stuck on his kumbaya approach to the swing

[Swingman420]

Iteach, let’s be clear you are not a run of the mill instructor like many. You represent class. And, you did what Jones wrote by helping that guy. Instead of trying to eliminate you taught what to do. Love it.

[The Pearl]

Wild weirdness,

I do not endorse Clement.

that is all.

 

On the club not swinging itself, of course. However once you give the clubhead momentum it's best not to disrupt it that would be a hitch in a swing.

Allow mean let body balance. Then you start to let go. You let go of the beliefs that prevent the use of fully focused attention.

 

Manuel De Le Torre was fond of saying something to the effect of once you set the club in motion, let it go and don't interfere with it.

[The Pearl]

Wild weirdness,

I do not endorse Clement.

that is all.

 

On the club not swinging itself, of course. However once you give the clubhead momentum it's best not to disrupt it that would be a hitch in a swing.

Allow mean let body balance. Then you start to let go. You let go of the beliefs that prevent the use of fully focused attention.

It doesn't work like that. It's not like you're shooting it from a canon once you hit the top of the backswing. You have to continue to apply force to the club.

 

From the top you have stored energy even if you stop it up there. The amount of force input to clubhead speed in a swinging motion is the most efficient.

The more efficient you are the better.

The golf club is long with a weighted end. A proper swing uses momentum. The club is a powerful tool but it's proper use is needed.

I couldn't care less what ground force I create I care about swinging correctly.

Like jumping rope the hands swing the rope and the jumping is timed to the hands.

Think how difficult it would be to reverse the procedure.

No one should try to emulate JT.

He's an otherworldly talent.

It's like saying Ayrton Senna drove his car 120 through a corner so you should too

 

There is truth to this statement. Nobody compares themselves in a Saturday morning pick up game to Lebron James. For some reason we don't seem to connect Tour players with world class athletes. Oh sure, we know they are good, but for the most part they don't look like athletic freaks like many of the other sports. This seems to lead us down a road where we are trying to apply things that pro's do to our own swings when in any other sports we most likely would not be doing so. As Monte posted about ground forces, one has to wonder if the "measurements" we see in pro swings are outputs rather than inputs.

[Ty_Webb]

we had the world long drive guy at our course, swinging 157 at times, flying it 390

 

highest ground forces ever measured FWIW

 

I'm all for information and research, but I'm also concerned what ams and instructors do with this info.

 

Just like with lag, everyone tried to equate lit being the cause of speed and distance. "Lag the club on purpose and you'll hit it farther and the more lag you have, the farther you'll hit it."

 

I have a feeling this is the same. Higher club speed guys create more ground forces, not more ground forces causes more club speed.

 

Bingo, physics tells us for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

There is something I have never understood.

 

No one has ever thought there was some magic solution to running a 4.3 forty, jumping 40", throwing 100 mph fast ball. There are technique improvements and training regimens that can increase your personal analytics, but it's well accepted some people are fast, can jump high and throw hard...and some can't.

 

However, it doesn't seem to be accepted that some people hit the ball far and some don't. There is no secret.

 

People look at me every day and say, "What's your secret?"

 

They get quite mad when I say, "I was born with the ability to hit the ball farther than everyone else."

 

What's Ussain Bolt's secret?. Aroldis Chapman.

 

Sure they worked hard to maximize, but they were born with a higher ceiling.

 

For the most part I suspect that some of this has to do with what the people who do it look like. Most sprinters look jacked and like they should be super fast. With LDA guys, some of them just look like beasts (Zuback would be the poster child), but then you see a guy like Justin Thomas and he's not very tall, pretty light, but bombs it. That has to be a technique thing. Or at least, to the layperson it feels that way.

[oikos1]

Im not sure why you guys keep responding to this guy when he obviously doesnt listen and is stuck on his kumbaya approach to the swing

 

Yeah, quite comedic how everyone else is confused, lost and on the wrong path except for one guy. Next thing you know we're all going to find ourselves ball bound.

[johnrobison]

Your body naturally works to support the intent of the hands with the tool.

To a degree, that might be true. Perhaps you've reached a level of play that makes you content and don't feel the need to improve from there. But, for many of us, getting our swing to another level requires an understanding and application beyond just putting the club on the ball. As Dan described (and you approved) teaching a student to use the ground (something you previously said was just a buzz term) was essential.

 

Swinging a club is simple.

Sure it is. But making the ball go far and straight consistently isn't. Maybe you're an incredibly talented athlete - maybe that's a simple thing for you. You're fortunate. It isn't for me and many others.

 

Look at DJ. “The main thing to do when hitting a cut is to make sure you cut it”

Ever heard the term dumb jock? Why don’t we call it athletic genius?

Easily said once you've trained yourself with thousands of hours of practice to do so. In my world, just imagining it will happen, doesn't make it so.

 

What's your level of play right now and what's your goal? I play to a 6 or 7 right now, have never been below 5, and would like to play more consistently around 2 or 3. Focusing on my hands swinging the club won't get me there. So,just to make sure we're in the same realm in this conversation, where are you with your game?

[Swingman420]

Jrob

I think u misread my DJ point. I’m saying it’s clear he’s not smart but athletically that can be a big advantage. Less interference.

I’m about your level right now. Don’t practice though so can throw up some higher scores. Don’t play as much.

The attraction for me was getting to a point where my ballstriking satisfied me.

Took a lotta years and only got there by the approach of swing clubhead.

 

 

[Krt22]

 

Took a lotta years and only got there by the approach of swing clubhead.

 

Which simply means that's how you got where you are, that doesnt mean this method is some sort of universal truth. You very well could have gotten to the same level in less time with a different type of approach, who knows.

[GungHoGolf]

Deep dive from AMG:

 

[Swingman420]

Krt,

I used a conventional approach for years. Big improvement was by changing my concept. I’m not against teaching at all. I am just against the concept that better form automatically makes a person better or that achieving better form is the only way skill is built.

 

[johnrobison]

Jrob

I think u misread my DJ point. I'm saying it's clear he's not smart but athletically that can be a big advantage. Less interference.

I'm about your level right now. Don't practice though so can throw up some higher scores. Don't play as much.

The attraction for me was getting to a point where my ballstriking satisfied me.

Took a lotta years and only got there by the approach of swing clubhead.

Good to hear that you're satisfied with where you are. Like many others here, I'm not and, as such, need a greater understanding of correct sequencing, pressure transfers, etc... Simple "intent of the hands with the tool" isn't going to get me there. And I'd venture to say that if your goal was to add another 5 or 10 MPH, reduce dispersion, etc... the same would be true for you. Just hoping that the body reacts correctly to the hands will only go so far.

[Swingman420]

Jrob,

You don’t need better understanding. You need better execution. How you choose to achieve your goal is up to you.

I don’t need mph. If I had the desire to improve I’d practice a lot.

At any rate I am not trying to tell you what to do.

I am just relating what worked for me.

It all goes back to goals vs time vs satisfaction.

My epiphany was applying the Ernest Jones approach for a few months which led to further application over a couple years.

Letting go and trusting a swinging motion is not easy nor is it a shortcut nor is it swing easy. No, speed stabilizes the swinging motion.

I never said this approach is some way to shortcut the reality of hard work facing a golfer who wants improvement I am only saying IF the proper concept is grasped that one will almost always improve with practice.

That’s all.

 

 

 

[johnrobison]

Jrob,

You don't need better understanding. You need better execution. How you choose to achieve your goal is up to you.

I don't need mph. If I had the desire to improve I'd practice a lot.

At any rate I am not trying to tell you what to do.

I am just relating what worked for me.

It all goes back to goals vs time vs satisfaction.

My epiphany was applying the Ernest Jones approach for a few months which led to further application over a couple years.

Letting go and trusting a swinging motion is not easy nor is it a shortcut nor is it swing easy. No, speed stabilizes the swinging motion.

I never said this approach is some way to shortcut the reality of hard work facing a golfer who wants improvement I am only saying IF the proper concept is grasped that one will almost always improve with practice.

That's all.

I don't believe you were simply saying what worked for you. In fact, your first post on this topic was, "The ground force baloney just confuses people. No one good focuses on ground force over hands." And then you sort of went from there to convince us all that if we just swing the club with our hands, the body will automatically find the correct positions.

[Jim Waldron]

Why are there so many, many threads on this forum where folks are conflating learning and practice mindset with playing mindset???

 

We need some kind of a symbol next to each thread title that indicates "OP is discussing the best mindset for how to make swing changes" vs "OP is discussing the most effective mindset for playing golf".

 

This is a Really Big Deal in golf and especially in golf instruction and the conflation of those two polar opposite mindsets causes tremendous confusion in the mind's of many golfers.

 

You learn/train to form a new movement pattern to the level of the subconscious mind, also known as forming a dominant habit.

 

Precisely so that you do not have to "think about" that new movement pattern when you play.

 

Playing golf is all about trust, commitment, letting go of control, focus, confidence, pre-shot routine and playing with the swing you actually have that day - never the fantasy swing you wished you had.

[PorscheFan]

Why are there so many, many threads on this forum where folks are conflating learning and practice mindset with playing mindset???

 

We need some kind of a symbol next to each thread title that indicates "OP is discussing the best mindset for how to make swing changes" vs "OP is discussing the most effective mindset for playing golf".

 

Somebody had to say it. There can be a different mindset for learning new motor patterns, or whatever, and that doesn't automatically mean 'abundance of technical thinking on the course'.

 

If you drill well, the goal is to make something natural, even automatic. It doesn't mean it felt natural getting to that point...

[Jim Waldron]

Why are there so many, many threads on this forum where folks are conflating learning and practice mindset with playing mindset???

 

We need some kind of a symbol next to each thread title that indicates "OP is discussing the best mindset for how to make swing changes" vs "OP is discussing the most effective mindset for playing golf".

 

Somebody had to say it. There can be a different mindset for learning new motor patterns, or whatever, and that doesn't automatically mean 'abundance of technical thinking on the course'.

 

If you drill well, the goal is to make something natural, even automatic. It doesn't mean it felt natural getting to that point...

 

Yes - feels the opposite of natural when first making the change. My students are all told as clearly as possible from day one about the separation of learning/practice from playing. Makes the swing change process so much more effective and less frustrating.

 

Pretty simple concept, really. The part of your brain that learns/trains is a different kind of consciousness than the part that plays the game.

 

Heck, Bob Rotella has made a living out of that concept.

[Swingman420]

Jrob,

You don't need better understanding. You need better execution. How you choose to achieve your goal is up to you.

I don't need mph. If I had the desire to improve I'd practice a lot.

At any rate I am not trying to tell you what to do.

I am just relating what worked for me.

It all goes back to goals vs time vs satisfaction.

My epiphany was applying the Ernest Jones approach for a few months which led to further application over a couple years.

Letting go and trusting a swinging motion is not easy nor is it a shortcut nor is it swing easy. No, speed stabilizes the swinging motion.

I never said this approach is some way to shortcut the reality of hard work facing a golfer who wants improvement I am only saying IF the proper concept is grasped that one will almost always improve with practice.

That's all.

I don't believe you were simply saying what worked for you. In fact, your first post on this topic was, "The ground force baloney just confuses people. No one good focuses on ground force over hands." And then you sort of went from there to convince us all that if we just swing the club with our hands, the body will automatically find the correct positions.

 

No. There are no correct positions.

 

[Krt22]

But there are certainly incorrect positions that essentially make it all but impossible to play high level golf. If you can't admit to that then you are simply delusional

[Swingman420]

Krt I don’t know. I do know it’s better to focus on what TO do as opposed to the opposite.

 

I dunno about the swing change either. I mean if you are practicing a drill a lot you are conditioning your brain.

I like some drills like feet together. I know for myself I tend to form a habit by doing something repetitively.

Mentally as well.

 

 

[chipa]

I know this is an old thread but thought it was relevant to point out that Dr. Sasho Mackenzie's model does appears to be out dated as it does not include the energy stored and released by the flexible tissue in the body, the muscles and tendons specifically. This research already has been done in other sports like tennis. Here is an article.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445225/

 

https://playsmarttennis.com/2020/02/11/biomechanics-of-the-stroke-transfer-of-potential-to-the-kinetic-energy/

 

What this means is that the "kinetic chain" is more than a mechanical connection of joints that are subject torquing forces about said, rather the flexible tissues in the body store energy and then release it later in the particular movement.

 

For example the forces generated between the feet and the ground early in the golf swing can be temporarily stored then released to affect clubhead speed. This is the same concept that is employed in weightlifting, such as the bench press, squat and olympic lifting. Golf swing models that only take into account forces generated by the movement around joints are incomplete and misleading at best.

Edited March 31, 2021 by chipa

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

to point out that Dr. Sasho Mackenzie's model does appears to be out dated as it does not include the energy stored and released my the flexible tissue in the body, the muscles and tendons specifically.

It's not out dated, it just does not include that aspect. The scope of this stuff is more on maximizing efficiencies. Force has direction, has a vector. You can apply 3 hp and move something better than applying 5 hp if the latter's force is miss directed.The golf swing has more misconceptions and more miss direction of power than almost anything else I can think of.

[chipa]

13 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

It's not out dated, it just does not include that aspect. The scope of this stuff is more on maximizing efficiencies. Force has direction, has a vector. You can apply 3 hp and move something better than applying 5 hp if the latter's force is miss directed.The golf swing has more misconceptions and more miss direction of power than almost anything else I can think of.

 

The loading of the flexible tissue in the golf swing is one of the reasons why pros hit is so much father than amateurs. Also, a swing built on just rotation around joints without allowing the muscles and tendons to load will be hard on the body as it cannot effectively create clubhead speed.

 

Also, from a physics standpoint any model that excludes important forces that the affect the acceleration of the components involved is incomplete, especially when trying to quantify all forces in said model. That would be like designing a bridge then omitting the force on the spans from the free body diagram analysis, or similar.

[LowAndLeft32]

17 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

The loading of the flexible tissue in the golf swing is one of the reasons why pros hit is so much father than amateurs. Also, a swing built on just rotation around joints without allowing the muscles and tendons to load will be hard on the body as it cannot effectively create clubhead speed.

 

Also, from a physics standpoint any model that excludes important forces that the affect the acceleration of the components involved is incomplete, especially when trying to quantify all forces in said model. That would be like designing a bridge then omitting the force on the spans from the free body diagram analysis, or similar.

Interesting thought. So then How does a person increase swing speed then? Or how does one increase the flexible tissue and increase kinetic stored energy? Or is it really not possible to increase meaningfully and more genetic based? Thanks. 

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

The loading of the flexible tissue in the golf swing is one of the reasons why pros hit is so much father than amateurs. Also, a swing built on just rotation around joints without allowing the muscles and tendons to load will be hard on the body as it cannot effectively create clubhead speed.

 

Also, from a physics standpoint any model that excludes important forces that the affect the acceleration of the components involved is incomplete, especially when trying to quantify all forces in said model. That would be like designing a bridge then omitting the force on the spans from the free body diagram analysis, or similar.

 

I don't disagree that being fit, having a strong core and legs helps. 5 years ago, I gained a full club just by hitting the gym for 4 months. But there's a boat load of strong guys who hit the ball in a sally fashion. It's the geometry, the application & direction of power that matter more. 

 

You can swing at 105 mph and do okay. You can swing at 105 mph and do great. 105 with too much spin and bad launch will not compete with 105 and proper spin/launch. Pro's are much better at applying force than the actual possession of force. Force has direction. It's in 3D but there's a bunch of axial dimensions in there to boot. There's also how and when power is applied. I think that gets grossly over looked.

 

Best amateur I've ever seen was a guy mid-forties, soft all around. The guy spanked a ball like a tour pro, you could hear it from 200 feet away. His body geometry, his application of force was optimized. I'm 57, I've gained about 10 yards on irons in last 2 years and my gut is soft and I'm flat out of shape.I just swing better, if I hit the gym, I'm killing it.

[chipa]

4 minutes ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

Interesting thought. So then How does a person increase swing speed then? Or how does one increase the flexible tissue and increase kinetic stored energy? Or is it really not possible to increase meaningfully and more genetic based? Thanks. 

 

The golf swing is a combination of flexibility, mechanical advantage and strength. I would say start with the feet on the ground connection and then build the way you grip the club from there, that way the grip never compromises this connection. I also think getting the shaft pointed back soon is the easiest technique for creating the mechanical advantage between the arms and hands that is also essential to maximizing clubhead speed. Both are needed to reach one's potential imo.

[chipa]

9 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

 

I don't disagree that being fit, having a strong core and legs helps. 5 years ago, I gained a full club just by hitting the gym for 4 months. But there's a boat load of strong guys who hit the ball in a sally fashion. It's the geometry, the application & direction of power that matter more.

 

 

These guys probably can't throw a baseball 60 mph either. The golf swing is no different in that regard, strength without flexibility is not useless but won't get anyone to their maximum potential.

Edited March 31, 2021 by chipa

[LowAndLeft32]

8 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

The golf swing is a combination of flexibility, mechanical advantage and strength. I would say start with the feet on the ground connection and then build the way you grip the club from there, that way the grip never compromises this connection. I also think getting the shaft pointed back soon is the easiest technique for creating the mechanical advantage between the arms and hands that is also essential to maximizing clubhead speed. Both are needed to reach one's potential imo.

Thanks. So what do you mean when you say shaft “pointed back soon”? Thx 

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

These guys probably can't throw a baseball 60 mph either. The golf swing is no different in that regard, strength without flexibility is not useless but won't get anyone to their maximum potential.

You can the finest set of fast twitch muscles, don't apply them correctly it will do you little good. Some years ago i read a study that suggested Pro's swing with 75% efficiency, that ams swing with 55% efficiency.Sounds about right.